Player Discussion How overpaid is Tavares

[Zybalto]

You're denying what's obvious because of a lack of explicit proof of a hypothetical. Tavares didn't allow every GM to bid on him. However, every one that did was reported to have bid in the range of 11m-13m, not 9m. This includes Lou offering 8 years of 11m, and then later 11.25m, with speculation about a 12m offer. Obviously, your claimed valuation of 9m cannot be justified. I said every GM would have signed Tavares for 9m, because I can't think of any time in history that a GM was offered such a massive discount on an impact player and turned it down. Need or not, teams would almost certainly find a way to make it work.

The Sharks bid was said to be the highest at the time or so I remember (13 million?)

Hard to remember when that high profile a player was available anyways, just a year removed from being a Hart finalist. Too bad he had to spend his prime years stuck on a team that failed to deliver much support. I wish a couple of good goalies could fall into our laps like his old had after he left though..

 

[Racer88]

True story, switch JT with McAvoy playing 1D 30 min a game and our goalies don't look half as bad.

Switch any 2 of the 4 with a stud goalie and stud Dman and this team would have been a lot better but zero effort was given to defence and goaltending. Everything was about the flashy forwards

$11M for a 2nd line center, even an elite one, is ridiculous in a cap world & just underscores what a terrible idea it was to sign him.

I do believe the mindset was that with such a young group he'd come in and be a veteran leader, but again, way, way too much money for a 2C especially considering Matthews was already pegged for the 1C role and that would heavily influence his post-ELC contract and they already had Kadri who was good enough to be a 2C. So it's not hard to argue that C (and RW with Willie & Mitch) were the two positions they had depth at while the blueline was in need of a major upgrade.

Throwing $11M at a UFA in Toronto's situation at the time could have worked, but I had to be an elite defender, or two very good ones (kidding). Maybe one and a goalie. But a 2C? Well, we've seen the fallout of that decision ever since.

He was supposed to be a leader just like Marleau and Thorton and Spezza……etc etc…….how do you lead a gang that was given the keys to vault before they won anything

 

[thewave]

You're denying what's obvious because of a lack of explicit proof of a hypothetical. Tavares didn't allow every GM to bid on him. However, every one that did was reported to have bid in the range of 11m-13m, not 9m. This includes Lou offering 8 years of 11m, and then later 11.25m, with speculation about a 12m offer. Obviously, your claimed valuation of 9m cannot be justified. I said every GM would have signed Tavares for 9m, because I can't think of any time in history that a GM was offered such a massive discount on an impact player and turned it down. Need or not, teams would almost certainly find a way to make it work.

Honest question. Are you trolling right now? I mentioned TB who doesnt overpay anyone. Now you are telling me they would.

This just isn't an intellectually honest conversation at this point. The old rabbit out of the hat trick doesn't work around here Dekes.

 

[Zybalto]

Start of the season - January 8th: 12 goals, 34 points in 37 games

Jan. 9th - Jan. 24th: 0 points in 9 games, -6

Jan 25th to today: 8 goals, 12 points in 16 games mostly playing with 2 rookies and little PP time. He was also being matched against other teams big guns too (while the new "2nd line" was sheltered)

Tavares had one bad stretch of hockey but seems to have figured it out.

20 goals, 46 points in 53 games outside that anomoly. Don't have to keep harping on him guys. Gonna need him in the playoffs.

 

[thewave]

The Sharks bid was said to be the highest at the time or so I remember (13 million?)

Hard to remember when that high profile a player was available anyways, just a year removed from being a Hart finalist. Too bad he had to spend his prime years stuck on a team that failed to deliver much support. I wish a couple of good goalies could fall into our laps like his old had after he left though..

He went to a team that ended up cap strapped and had no support. History repeats.

Switch any 2 of the 4 with a stud goalie and stud Dman and this team would have been a lot better but zero effort was given to defence and goaltending. Everything was about the flashy forwards


He was supposed to be a leader just like Marleau and Thorton and Spezza……etc etc…….how do you lead a gang that was given the keys to vault before they won anything

Those players said they were outperforming JT. Why would they get paid less by that measure. Its why they got paid. Internals matter

 

[AustonMarner]

Please everyone understand that, if the illegal economic shutdown of world did not occur for those 3 years the NHL salary cap would be exponentially higher. THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE BUT A REALITY lol

All of this was exasperated by the mistake of management as to where they thought the team was in relation to being a true cup contender, choosing to become a woke-moneyball team under Dubas, plus having the financial wherewithal and clout to make offers on elite players right at that unfortunate time all lead to where the team is now.

Analytics are less important in hockey than let's say baseball ️ because the NHL playoffs are literally like playing a completely different type of game where certain players attributes become more important or crucial to winning games

At least the Leafs won't be the Bruins or Panthers bitches in the playoffs... Leafs will beat the Bruins this year... boys and girls, have no fear

PS Reaves should be giving Samsonov some hockey fighting lessons because that "Sway-men" goalie is gonna start some $hit guaranteed

 

[Dekes For Days]

Of course not but Dubas was the only guy to lock 4 similar forwards to 50% of the cap. The Tavares contract and Dubas’s unwillingness to do anything to correct such a misstep is the real problem.
He was to stubborn with his famous quote that we can and we will.
We can’t pretend that the flat cap caused these issues. If the cap would have been going up like normal they would have just demanded a higher percentage being as you alway like to tell us that contracts are all about percentage and not dollar value. The real problem is and always will be a poor build model and so far their unwillingness to do what ever it takes to win and I’m speaking from management on down right to the core

Your argument here has nothing to do with the comment you responded to.
It's also wrong. Our forwards aren't similar, and covid and the flat cap is what locked in the percentage of the cap they took up.
Contracts are about percentage, so I'm not sure how you think a different cap would change the percentage they demanded, or how they would be demanding anything when they were already signed. There's nothing wrong with Tavares' contract or the build model, and they are doing everything it takes to win.
Can't believe this needs to be said, but thank god our GM was stubborn enough to keep our best players.

I mentioned TB who doesnt overpay anyone. Now you are telling me they would.

You asked if Tampa would pay him 13m, which is an irrelevant, unrelated question.
I didn't say that Tampa would overpay Tavares. I said they would have almost certainly paid him your claimed 9m - a massive underpay.

 

[Zybalto]

He went to a team that ended up cap strapped and had no support. History repeats.

Something stopped the cap from reaching its projection of closing in on 100 million today. It's all baked into contracts that are signed right? A rising cap? Revenues exploding around the league and the league getting set for big increases in post 2019? I wonder what happened?

I wonder what happened.......

 

[thewave]

Something stopped the cap from reaching its projection of closing in on 100 million today. It's all baked into contracts that are signed right? A rising cap? Revenues exploding around the league and the league getting set for big increases in post 2019? I wonder what happened?

I wonder what happened.......

Before that even happened we were headed towards recession. There would have been money printing and issues regardless of said pandemic. I wrote a thread about it even, or included it in the contract discussion thread.

Guess what thats about to happen again soon

 

[Dekes For Days]

Before that even happened we were headed towards recession. There would have been money printing and issues regardless of said pandemic.

The league was headed towards a quickly and heavily increasing cap, even in the unlikely event that we hit a recession.
In fact, even with the global financial impacts of the pandemic, the cap based on the formula has continued to rise quite a bit.
We just are not using the proper cap, because the league is artificially suppressing the cap so that the owners get back their billion+ dollars from the players.

 

[Zybalto]

Before that even happened we were headed towards recession. There would have been money printing and issues regardless of said pandemic. I wrote a thread about it even, or included it in the contract discussion thread.

Guess what thats about to happen again soon

You are right that we are going to go through rough times for a while but that's precisely because we "flatcapped" the world and for far too long. Before covid, the North American economy was booming and so was the NHL.

 

[FerrisRox]

No it wouldn't, because Tavares had zero impact on the contracts of the kids.

You have been saying this for years, and it's absolutely absurd.

Of course the representation for Marner, Matthews and Nylander pointed to what Dubas had just paid John Tavares and used it as a benchmark.

If their agents didn't heavily leverage that, they would have been fired on the spot.

The notion that because one is an RFA and the other is a UFA, they somehow aren't comparable is just so willfully ignorant, I don't even know where to begin with such an argument.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

Over the length of his contract, maybe 15%. Currently, about 60-70%.

The point is not that he's overpaid, but that he wasn't what the team needed. On another team where he would have been the 1C for the first 5 years, $11M would be reasonable. On a team where he was virtually guaranteed to be the 2C for most of it, $11M was an overpayment of biblical proportions.

Dubas… the worst GM in NHL.

Gets bent over in all trades.
Loves the small skill guys.

Pittsburgh is now becoming tainted with his soyboy attributes.

Shanny needs to answer for letting Dubas in our house and cu*kold the MLSE over the barrel for a decade.

Rid of Marner and JT and retool from there.
So many years of a soft core and scared JT and selfish Marleau leading us.

 

[Its not your fault]

He should be making Stamkos cap hit. They signed a year a part.

He's also not captain material.

Do you know what the take home difference is?

 

[ACC1224]

You have been saying this for years, and it's absolutely absurd.

Of course the representation for Marner, Matthews and Nylander pointed to what Dubas had just paid John Tavares and used it as a benchmark.

If their agents didn't heavily leverage that, they would have been fired on the spot.

The notion that because one is an RFA and the other is a UFA, they somehow aren't comparable is just so willfully ignorant, I don't even know where to begin with such an argument.

Go with your instinct and don't.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You have been saying this for years, and it's absolutely absurd.

I've been saying it for years because it's true. What would be absurd would be a UFA contract determining a post-ELC contract. We've all known for decades that those aren't comparable, and nobody suggested otherwise until these Tavares conspiracy theories started. There is no evidence or indication that Tavares' contract had any impact. In fact, it would be illogical since the contracts don't even align. If Tavares was the comparable, Matthews and Marner would have made more. It's very obvious why the kids got the contracts they did, and it has nothing to do with Tavares.

 

[Gabriel426]

COVID or not, if JT scores 35goals and 90pts or a bit higher, while leading the Leafs to more than ONE round of playoff series win, or actually win a Cup the past 5 yrs, nobody will be saying he is overpaid.....
He is overpaid not bc he is playing like a 4th liner but bc he is not producing at a rate that justify his contract.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Lou literally tried to sign him for even more money than us.

Do you mean when Lou was with the Islanders, and, knowing full well that there wasn't any way JT was going anywhere except Toronto, he offered $11x8, which cost nothing, and made him look good to management and the fan base who wanted JT to stay?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Please everyone understand that, if the illegal economic shutdown of world did not occur for those 3 years the NHL salary cap would be exponentially higher. THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE BUT A REALITY lol

All of this was exasperated by the mistake of management as to where they thought the team was in relation to being a true cup contender, choosing to become a woke-moneyball team under Dubas, plus having the financial wherewithal and clout to make offers on elite players right at that unfortunate time all lead to where the team is now.

Analytics are less important in hockey than let's say baseball ️ because the NHL playoffs are literally like playing a completely different type of game where certain players attributes become more important or crucial to winning games

At least the Leafs won't be the Bruins or Panthers bitches in the playoffs... Leafs will beat the Bruins this year... boys and girls, have no fear

PS Reaves should be giving Samsonov some hockey fighting lessons because that "Sway-men" goalie is gonna start some $hit guaranteed

The bolded makes it pretty hard to take anything else you say seriously.

The league was headed towards a quickly and heavily increasing cap, even in the unlikely event that we hit a recession.
In fact, even with the global financial impacts of the pandemic, the cap based on the formula has continued to rise quite a bit.
We just are not using the proper cap, because the league is artificially suppressing the cap so that the owners get back their billion+ dollars from the players.

Always a good idea to spent the money you hope you might get. ;-)

 

[Arzak]

The bolded makes it pretty hard to take anything else you say seriously.


Always a good idea to spent the money you hope you might get. ;-)

Islander offered 11x8M, I'm thinking maybe they had a slot on their first line because they were lacking Matthews? You can offer 11x8 if it's your only big contract...

I would give him like quarter of a point for COVID. But cap is the same for everyone. I don't get how cap increase benefits us more.

Yes, the impact of our bad signing would be lessened. The rest of our competition/contenders would use that increase to improve in cap sensitive manner. Somehow I'm to believe we would come out on top, compared to the rest of the league/contenders.

Not only that, it would be so significant, that it excuses everything Dubas did. Tough sell...

Somehow I have a feeling we would pay Matthews 15M and Nylander 13M if we had an extra 10M in cap space, still dreading Marners next contract, but I can be wrong.

 

[AustonMarner]

The bolded makes it pretty hard to take anything else you say seriously.

Thankfully, I could care less if you take me seriously or otherwise... like, who the f--- are you to me really lol

A government mandating lockdown, for a virus that they also claim was slightly less dangerous than the common flu virus seems kinda tyrannical, insane and in direct opposition to my sovereign human right to live but obviously you disagree and that totally shows me the type of person you are ; )

Sorry that I believe in free thought and questioning those who have lied to me in the past... what a dummy I am for sure right? @Jamason

I make the juice, you take the juice and I really don't mind

Cheers, best of luck in your life

 

[Racer88]

Your argument here has nothing to do with the comment you responded to.
It's also wrong. Our forwards aren't similar, and covid and the flat cap is what locked in the percentage of the cap they took up.
Contracts are about percentage, so I'm not sure how you think a different cap would change the percentage they demanded, or how they would be demanding anything when they were already signed. There's nothing wrong with Tavares' contract or the build model, and they are doing everything it takes to win.
Can't believe this needs to be said, but thank god our GM was stubborn enough to keep our best players.

You asked if Tampa would pay him 13m, which is an irrelevant, unrelated question.
I didn't say that Tampa would overpay Tavares. I said they would have almost certainly paid him your claimed 9m - a massive underpay.

Sorry but everything you just said is wrong.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Sorry but everything you just said is wrong.

he wants to keep the stars shooting for the stars landing on the moon in dreamland

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you mean when Lou was with the Islanders, and, knowing full well that there wasn't any way JT was going anywhere except Toronto, he offered $11x8, which cost nothing, and made him look good to management and the fan base who wanted JT to stay?

No, I mean when Lou was with the Islanders and reportedly offered 11m x 8 and then 11.25m x 8 and potentially even 12m x 8 in a desperate attempt to avoid starting off his tenure by losing a massive piece of their team, but did not pull it off, despite his original Islanders team remaining a top option to the very end.

Always a good idea to spent the money you hope you might get. ;-)

You spend the money you have, in the same way everybody does, and then hope that the cap won't act in a unique, completely opposite of expected way that wasn't built into the complarables and common structure that the contracts are built from.

 

[Atomos2]

7 million