How much value do you put into these later Ovechkin seasons?

[Voight]

This needs to be backed up with some sort of evidence. Why don't you put up a poll to prove this. I would suggest you could save yourself some time and point to the HOH Top 100 players project which shows exactly what you are claiming, a consensus Big 4, but then, as I said, Crosby was pretty close to a consensus higher rating than OV.

? I don't think you will find one hockey fan who doesn't have Gretzky/Orr/Howe/Lemieux as the 4 best of all time.

& the HOH top 100 project is one ranking..... that doesn't mean its a consensus that Crosby is ranked higher. On this specific sub-forum? Sure, but again thats only one ranking that is hardly the be all end all.

 

[wetcoast]

Since the start of the 2017-2018 season, Crosby has 134 EVP, and Ovechkin has 130 EVP. That statement is false, unless you would also say that Crosby's play is also 'clearly' deteriorating 5v5?

By using points you are talking clearly only about offense, I was talking about overall 5 on 5 play.

Corsi numbers and eye test all indicate that Crosby is still tilting the ice much more than Ovechkin 5 on 5.

 

[Sam Spade]

By using points you are talking clearly only about offense, I was talking about overall 5 on 5 play.

Corsi numbers and eye test all indicate that Crosby is still tilting the ice much more than Ovechkin 5 on 5.

Not what I am seeing at all. However it is still early in the season and a lot can change.

A Crosby - Ovechkin debate. You guys are really dating yourselves. It's now about Laine vs. Matthews for pointless back and forths.

Laine isn't part of any discussion anymore when it comes to comparisons of best players in the league.

 

[wetcoast]

Not what I am seeing at all. However it is still early in the season and a lot can change.

What exactly are you watching then?

Ovechkin is minus 4 on a team with a plus 41 this year.

Also his CF is 50.8%

 

[Sam Spade]

What exactly are you watching then?

Ovechkin is minus 4 on a team with a plus 41 this year.

Also his CF is 50.8%

No fault of Ovechkin's, he leads the league in shots. Ovechkin #4 in goals created this season, Crosby #20. Ovechkin's been better to start this season.

Again, it's early, Crosby will end up with more points, as a center he should. I'm happy with with Ovechkin, and the Capitals, start this season.

 

[Canadiens1958]

? I don't think you will find one hockey fan who doesn't have Gretzky/Orr/Howe/Lemieux as the 4 best of all time.

& the HOH top 100 project is one ranking..... that doesn't mean its a consensus that Crosby is ranked higher. On this specific sub-forum? Sure, but again thats only one ranking that is hardly the be all end all.

Only ranking supported with discussion and voting that is public.

 

[bobholly39]

His 5th best resume after his 14th season/by age 31 would place him nicely to potentially reach that.

I would say it is a consensus in the HOH section that Crosby is better than OV.

I dont think you fully understand the meaning of the word concensus.

Crosby > Ovechkin is a majority opinion around here but far from a concensus.

Also - Crosby is not at all in line to potentially reach concensus top 5. He'll be in the tier of guys like Hull and Beliveau but nowhere near concensus #5. To be concensus #5 he needs some extraordinary things still which are very unlikely.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not what I am seeing at all. However it is still early in the season and a lot can change.

That's...interesting.

 

[Voight]

Only ranking supported with discussion and voting that is public.

Yes and ? My point is, there are millions of hockey fans world wide who have their own rankings.... millions who don't even know HFB exists or don't go on the site. The ranking is a good project, but its hardly a be all end all when you take everything into account.

I dont think you fully understand the meaning of the word concensus.

Crosby > Ovechkin is a majority opinion around here but far from a concensus.

Also - Crosby is not at all in line to potentially reach concensus top 5. He'll be in the tier of guys like Hull and Beliveau but nowhere near concensus #5. To be concensus #5 he needs some extraordinary things still which are very unlikely.

There we go.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes and ? My point is, there are millions of hockey fans world wide who have their own rankings.... millions who don't even know HFB exists or don't go on the site. The ranking is a good project, but its hardly a be all end all when you take everything into account.


There we go.

A yes the phantom silent millions. Suppose you polled all of them and tabulated the data?

 

[Filthy Dangles]

No fault of Ovechkin's, he leads the league in shots. Ovechkin #4 in goals created this season, Crosby #20. Ovechkin's been better to start this season.

Again, it's early, Crosby will end up with more points, as a center he should. I'm happy with with Ovechkin, and the Capitals, start this season.

Crosby vs Ovechkin debate aside....

This is a weird fallacy i've seen perpetuated from time to time. First off, the best players (read highest scoring players) tend to play center growing up, which is why a lot of the leading point getters are centers. Second, there are many more examples of players seeing a drop in offensive effectiveness (read scoring less points) when they switch to center vs switching to wing.

Just a bad and unfounded argument that centers magically accumulate more points by virtue of the position and 'getting more touches'.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Crosby vs Ovechkin debate aside....

This is a weird fallacy i've seen perpetuated from time to time. First off, the best players (read highest scoring players) tend to play center growing up, which is why a lot of the leading point getters are centers. Second, there are many more examples of players seeing a drop in offensive effectiveness (read scoring less points) when they switch to center vs switching to wing.

Just a bad and unfounded argument that centers magically accumulate more points by virtue of the position and 'getting more touches'.

Allowing the offensive team the choice of defensive faceoff dot starting with the 2019-20 season:

NHL announces rule changes for 2019-20 season

will be interesting to track. Will choices favour centers or shooters?

 

[wetcoast]

No fault of Ovechkin's, he leads the league in shots. Ovechkin #4 in goals created this season, Crosby #20. Ovechkin's been better to start this season.

Again, it's early, Crosby will end up with more points, as a center he should. I'm happy with with Ovechkin, and the Capitals, start this season.

Goals created is just another goal heavy stat, it's really doubling counting goals for the most part.

Also Ovechkin has had way better linemates than Crosby has this year.

Alex Ovechkin - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

Sidney Crosby - Fantasy Hockey Game Logs, Advanced Stats and more - Frozen Tools

 

[The Panther]

Laine isn't part of any discussion anymore when it comes to comparisons of best players in the league.

You possibly missed my point...

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Allowing the offensive team the choice of defensive faceoff dot starting with the 2019-20 season:

NHL announces rule changes for 2019-20 season

will be interesting to track. Will choices favour centers or shooters?

Probably centers but the real question is how many more goals is this new rule gonna create?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Probably centers but the real question is how many more goals is this new rule gonna create?

Real question is will this evolve / mutate into special offensive and defensive faceoff units with possibly two centers LHS and RHS.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Real question is will this evolve / mutate into special offensive and defensive faceoff units with possibly two centers LHS and RHS.

Don't think so but I think you might see wingers take more draws in the dzone if their center is on his weakside and isn't particularly great at faceoffs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Don't think so but I think you might see wingers take more draws in the dzone if their center is on his weakside and isn't particularly great at faceoffs.

Too early to tell. New data for faceoffs is required reflecting the changes for 2019-20.

Eventually you might see hybrid center/wingers become more common.

Also some different faceoff formations offensive and defensive may be used.

 

[illpucks]

So Ovechkin looks like he has a good shot of winning another Rocket this year. Most likely, he won't finish in the top 10 in points though.

Legacy wise, what is the value of a season where you finish first in goals, add another trophy to the cabinet but you are arguably not a top 10 player?

Even now most people consider Crosby better than Ovehckin. But Ovechkin has a substantial lead in invidivual awards and this lead will grow as I don't think Crosby can win more awards with McDavid and Kucherov around but Ovechkin can still rack up the Rockets.


I don't want to use the term "compiler" because Ovechkin is undoubtedly elite still, but could Ovechkin compile enough Rockets to unseat Crosby?

Can you imagine a scenario 50 years in the future where younger fans argue that Ovechkin was clearly the best player of this era because of the hardware while the older fans insist that it was Crosby?

Arguably not a top 10 player? Huh? He is 100% 5-10 player, and actually should be ranked #2-5.

McDavid is better than him at this point, but no one else. And even vs McDavid he held his own in the Oilers game and outperformed McDavid for 1/2 the game. He's a complete 200 ft player that is playing close to the best hockey of his career.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Arguably not a top 10 player? Huh? He is 100% 5-10 player, and actually should be ranked #2-5.

McDavid is better than him at this point, but no one else. And even vs McDavid he held his own in the Oilers game and outperformed McDavid for 1/2 the game. He's a complete 200 ft player that is playing close to the best hockey of his career.

Really? Playing against checking lines, Ovi is -4, trending to -20 to -25 range for the season.

2019-20 Washington Capitals Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[illpucks]

Really? Playing against checking lines, Ovi is -4, trending to -20 to -25 range for the season.

2019-20 Washington Capitals Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Selke caliber Nick Backstrom is also -4, and on same line, so maybe it's not Ovi's fault?
Crosby just had a -4 game vs the Bruins.

But he has been doing pretty good defence

 

[Sentinel]

His claim to fame may be the consensus #5 player all-time if he keeps going at his current rate. He has been the better player than OV in four of his six last Rocket winning seasons (backed up by Lindsay and Hart voting) so there is obviously some context needed beyond looking at goal and assist totals, namely point totals and point finishes for one.

Ovechkin also has more Harts than Crosby. Just sayin'.

 

[K Fleur]

Has there ever been a player more often referred to as "Selke caliber", despite never even being nominated for the award, than Nicklas Backstrom? Maybe Marian Hossa?

 

[phillydownsouth]

Ovechkin is a fkin boss. Respect the man

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Has there ever been a player more often referred to as "Selke caliber", despite never even being nominated for the award, than Nicklas Backstrom? Maybe Marian Hossa?

there is such an incredibly obvious answer to this question