How much value do you put into these later Ovechkin seasons?

[BackToTheBasics]

But there’s only the one trophy. So Kucherov and his 128 points wins it. The five other players with 100-116 points (35-50 goals, 55-75 assists) do not get a trophy. The eight other players with 90-99 points do not get a trophy. A player with 89 points gets a trophy - literally the only other offensive trophy presented.

Talking about the creation of an Assists Trophy is basically just doubling the issue here. Obviously Kucherov led the league in assists but Blake Wheeler’s 20-71-91 statline would put him closer to the award than Patrick Kane’s 44-66-110 statline. Just like Kane could find some more goals at the cost of his assists, he could find more assists at the cost of his goals, so looking strictly at Assists rankings wouldn’t tell us who the best playmakers are, but rather which top players skewed more heavily towards playmaking.

Goals trophies and Assists trophies just add bulletpoints to players’ resumes that ignores that they may not be one of the league’s very best scorers. 15th place in points isn’t, like, that great. But the bulletpoint is the same as the one 2nd or 3rd place scorers like 1999 Selanne, 2000 Bure, 2007 Lecavalier, 2012 Stamkos, and 2017 Crosby received. That’s the problem; Ovechkin isn’t having seasons like those, but the award is the same.

I mean if you simply value his season only based on where he finished in the points race, obviously his season won't seem so great. It's also obvious that you value point placement over anything else considering that you believe Ovechkin hasn't separated himself from Stamkos in the last 2 years as a player... that is a new one. I'm sure just about every Lightning fan would take Ovechkin over Stamkos from the past 2 seasons in a heart beat.

Many would also agree that Ovechkin had a better season than the majority of the players who finished ahead of him in points. It's basically the same as those who only look at the fact that he lead the league in goals without actually seeing how he fared in the Hart/Lindsay race.

I agree with your overall point but you're trying way too hard to downplay Ovechkin's season and making it look much worse than it really was.

 

[Sam Spade]

That 36 games was shortened season to be fair. I think it needs to count.

I count it for sure.

 

[HF007]

Legendary status, who else was scoring 50/leading the league in scoring consistently after year 10?

 

[Hattrickkane88]

during their playing careers Crosby will always be looked at as better but history will remember Ovechkin goal totals while Crosby as a play maker will not be close to his playmaking peers.

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin was minus 2 tonight to give him a minus 4 line on the best team in the NHL after 16 games.

Is the singular focus on scoring goals going to compensate for the real decline in his overall game so far this season?

It didn't hurt Mario historically but I wonder how it will play out for Ovechkin in that respect.

 

[daver]

during their playing careers Crosby will always be looked at as better but history will remember Ovechkin goal totals while Crosby as a play maker will not be close to his playmaking peers.

Why would you define Crosby as a playmaker given he is arguably the second best goalscorer of his era and has won Two Rockets?

He should be viewed as an overall offensive force like Wayne, Mario, Jagr, Howe etc... with a very good defensive game.

 

[daver]

Many would also agree that Ovechkin had a better season than the majority of the players who finished ahead of him in points. It's basically the same as those who only look at the fact that he lead the league in goals without actually seeing how he fared in the Hart/Lindsay race.

IMO, his Hart/Lindsay showings reflect the true value of his seasons over his career. I think a fair narrative for his back nine/in his 30s would be OV has kept himself in the Top 5 player conversation to this point (since the 15/16 season). Crosby/McDavid/Kane would be clear ahead of him.

Does this propel him higher up all-time vs. his direct peers like Hull, Beliveau, Richard, Messier, Morenz, and Jagr?

 

[Voight]

Ovechkin is not winning the Richard trophy this year, though!

People said that the last two years. Its a waste of time to count him out.

 

[MXD]

The same value as his numbers would otherwise suggest.

 

[Hattrickkane88]

Why would you define Crosby as a playmaker given he is arguably the second best goalscorer of his era and has won Two Rockets?

He should be viewed as an overall offensive force like Wayne, Mario, Jagr, Howe etc... with a very good defensive game.

Whatever you call him playmaking was his best asset and he probably won't even crack top 10 all time in assists so his claim to fame isn't going to be as strong as Ovechkin who may even crack the goal scoring record.

 

[Hattrickkane88]

Why would you define Crosby as a playmaker given he is arguably the second best goalscorer of his era and has won Two Rockets?

He should be viewed as an overall offensive force like Wayne, Mario, Jagr, Howe etc... with a very good defensive game.

Career wise he is going to stand out for his playmaking, he isn't even top 50 in goals all time but is already in the 30s for assists.

It's currently more likely Ovechkin reaches top 3 all time in goals then Crosby reaches even top 10 in assists.

Why would you define Crosby as a playmaker given he is arguably the second best goalscorer of his era and has won Two Rockets?

He should be viewed as an overall offensive force like Wayne, Mario, Jagr, Howe etc... with a very good defensive game.

Gretzky has more goals then anyone but many people have no problem with him being called a playmaker because he had so many more assists compared to goals and it's the same with Crosby. His greatest skill is playmaking but It doesn't matter what we call him, Crosby is never going to have that statistic that stands out like Ovechkin and his goal totals, Ovechkin could reach top 10 in goals this year while Crosby is fighting for 30th in assists.

 

[daver]

Whatever you call him playmaking was his best asset and he probably won't even crack top 10 all time in assists so his claim to fame isn't going to be as strong as Ovechkin who may even crack the goal scoring record.

His claim to fame may be the consensus #5 player all-time if he keeps going at his current rate. He has been the better player than OV in four of his six last Rocket winning seasons (backed up by Lindsay and Hart voting) so there is obviously some context needed beyond looking at goal and assist totals, namely point totals and point finishes for one.

 

[Voight]

Why would you define Crosby as a playmaker given he is arguably the second best goalscorer of his era and has won Two Rockets?

He should be viewed as an overall offensive force like Wayne, Mario, Jagr, Howe etc... with a very good defensive game.

Stamkos also has 2 rockets, plus a 60 goal season which very may well be only the second of this era after Ovechkin.

His claim to fame may be the consensus #5 player all-time if he keeps going at his current rate. He has been the better player than OV in four of his six last Rocket winning seasons (backed up by Lindsay and Hart voting) so there is obviously some context needed beyond looking at goal and assist totals, namely point totals and point finishes for one.

He will never be the consensus 5th best ever.

Its not exactly a consensus that he's better than Ovechkin. So I doubt he would be the consensus 5th best of all time.

 

[Voight]

I didn't watch the 2019 Worlds (except highlights from Finland's games in the knockout stages) but why did Ovechkin only have 3 points in 10 games while Kucherov & Gusev had 16 points each? It seems like a relatively steep discrepancy. Was he injured?

I know it's just the Worlds and I know Kucherov is at his peak while Ovi is old and such, but Ovi's international resume has always left you a bit puzzled. His wrecking ball game doesn't translate that well to big ice? I know he can skate, so skating shouldn't be that big of a problem. Vision? Problems playing the slower non-set piece game?

Just a guess but maybe fatigue? year before he played into June, won the cup, partied all summer, came back had another elite season and then had a hard fought 7 game series.

You'll never know if he was actually injured - "Russian machine never break"

 

[daver]

Stamkos also has 2 rockets, plus a 60 goal season which very may well be only the second of this era after Ovechkin.

Yes, Stamkos has a good argument himself. Hardly takes away from the point being made.

 

[daver]

He will never be the consensus 5th best ever.

Its not exactly a consensus that he's better than Ovechkin. So I doubt he would be the consensus 5th best of all time.

His 5th best resume after his 14th season/by age 31 would place him nicely to potentially reach that.

I would say it is a consensus in the HOH section that Crosby is better than OV.

 

[Voight]

His 5th best resume after his 14th season/by age 31 would place him nicely to potentially reach that.

I would say it is a consensus in the HOH section that Crosby is better than OV.

... and? Its not a consensus among hockey fans, the way that essentially every hockey fan can agree on the big 4. It may never be.

 

[Hattrickkane88]

His claim to fame may be the consensus #5 player all-time if he keeps going at his current rate. He has been the better player than OV in four of his six last Rocket winning seasons (backed up by Lindsay and Hart voting) so there is obviously some context needed beyond looking at goal and assist totals, namely point totals and point finishes for one.

That would be very impressive but Ovechkin will be at least a spot ahead of him if they keep going at the same rate. Career wise they are tied in points but with Ovechkin having over 218 more goals.

While judging the past few years is a decent way to guess future point production i don't know if it trumps career durability, even if Crosby does produce a little more ppg his injuries and Ovechkins durability make me lean towards Ovechkin gaining even more of a lead.

 

[wetcoast]

That would be very impressive but Ovechkin will be at least a spot ahead of him if they keep going at the same rate. Career wise they are tied in points but with Ovechkin having over 218 more goals.

Actually Crosby has 3 more points in 143 less games.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

While judging the past few years is a decent way to guess future point production i don't know if it trumps career durability, even if Crosby does produce a little more ppg his injuries and Ovechkins durability make me lean towards Ovechkin gaining even more of a lead.

Playoffs, international play, 2 way play all enter the equation and if anything Crosby is looking to make the gap between him and Ovechkin even larger than it is right now.

Ovechkin is still scoring goals and points but his play is clearly deteriorating 5 on 5.

 

[filinski77]

Actually Crosby has 3 more points in 143 less games.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com



Playoffs, international play, 2 way play all enter the equation and if anything Crosby is looking to make the gap between him and Ovechkin even larger than it is right now.

Ovechkin is still scoring goals and points but his play is clearly deteriorating 5 on 5.

Since the start of the 2017-2018 season, Crosby has 134 EVP, and Ovechkin has 130 EVP. That statement is false, unless you would also say that Crosby's play is also 'clearly' deteriorating 5v5?

 

[Hattrickkane88]

Actually Crosby has 3 more points in 143 less games.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com



Playoffs, international play, 2 way play all enter the equation and if anything Crosby is looking to make the gap between him and Ovechkin even larger than it is right now.

Ovechkin is still scoring goals and points but his play is clearly deteriorating 5 on 5.

Oh Wow! there are sites that tell me their totals?!?! i've always just had sheets of paper at home i would checkmark when they scored!!!

This changes everything !!! who cares if Ovechkin could lose literally 4 years worth of 50 goal seasons and still have more goals then crosby. Crosby has THREE yes i said it THREE more points!!!!!

 

[The Panther]

A Crosby - Ovechkin debate. You guys are really dating yourselves. It's now about Laine vs. Matthews for pointless back and forths.

 

[daver]

... and? Its not a consensus among hockey fans, the way that essentially every hockey fan can agree on the big 4. It may never be.

This needs to be backed up with some sort of evidence. Why don't you put up a poll to prove this. I would suggest you could save yourself some time and point to the HOH Top 100 players project which shows exactly what you are claiming, a consensus Big 4, but then, as I said, Crosby was pretty close to a consensus higher rating than OV.

 

[daver]

Oh Wow! there are sites that tell me their totals?!?! i've always just had sheets of paper at home i would checkmark when they scored!!!

This changes everything !!! who cares if Ovechkin could lose literally 4 years worth of 50 goal seasons and still have more goals then crosby. Crosby has THREE yes i said it THREE more points!!!!!

So where do you rate Mario all-time if career raw point totals are the be all, end all of player ratings?

 

[Hattrickkane88]

So where do you rate Mario all-time if career raw point totals are the be all, end all of player ratings?

So where do you rate Mario all-time if career raw point totals are the be all, end all of player ratings?

it's not that PPG doesn't matter it's just that Crosby's is 1.2 while Ovechkins is 1.1 it's pretty close compared to a guy like Lemieux with a staggering 1.8 .