How much faith do you have in the core 4?

[ShaneFalco]

Has anyone ever eaten crow, or watched someone who has?

It's not pretty

 

[PromisedLand]

Has anyone ever eaten crow, or watched someone who has?

Depends.... Is it BBQ? Or oven roasted or with sauce?

 

[saffronleaf]

blow it up and start over again

 

[Gabriel426]

I don’t think the core is good enough.
To me the core for any teams are 5 forwards, 3 Dmen and 1 goalie.
Campbell is okay and if Crawford can win Cups, Campbell can too. Having said that Vas is a few levels higher than Campbell.
To me the three Dmen are 1st pairing and Shutdown Dman. Our 3 Dmen are Reilly, TJ and Muzzin. Muzzin can be a great shutdown Dman if his partner is not Holl.
Our first pairing of Reilly and TJ are good but Reilly needs to learn to play better D esp in an odd man rush situation.
The 5 forwards of the core in my mind are three forwards with points and 2 that plays great Defence but can also chip in offence on their own. The Leafs 5 forwards lack a faceoff man and a true shut down forward.

Individually they Leafs are more than enough to be a core player in any teams in the league but together they lack balance.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I know people think its excuses, but they've had the "core 4" in 2/5 of the playoff losses (1 vs boston, 1 vs columbus).

They should have beat Columbus, but given that was a 5 game series in the bubble after what - a 2 month break that saw even Pittsburgh lose, I just don't think they should blow up the four because of that.

They should have won this year. They didn't. They didn't have 1 of the "core 4" that are a part of this thread. I think if Tavares is there they probably win one of the 3 one goal games (g1, g5, g6) and then we're not really talking about this being a flawed experiment that cannot win a round.

If they lose next year in the first round - while being healthy - so be it. I do not think this team gets better without Marner. He's overpaid versus his comparables, but he still provides surplus value over his contract - just less than Braydon Point/others. That doesn't mean they're going to be able to move him and obtain >Marner's value for 10.9M.

I get why people are frustrated and have no issue with people wanting to move Marner/not believing in the setup. I'd give them another year. Last year everyone said Willy couldn't play in the playoffs - then he was their best player.

"That saw even Pittsburgh lose"?

Pittsburg has won a total of three playoff games in the last three years. Of the 25 teams to play at least one series in those three years, only the Rangers and Oilers have won fewer!

 

[makbeer]

I don’t think the core is good enough.
To me the core for any teams are 5 forwards, 3 Dmen and 1 goalie.
Campbell is okay and if Crawford can win Cups, Campbell can too. Having said that Vas is a few levels higher than Campbell.
To me the three Dmen are 1st pairing and Shutdown Dman. Our 3 Dmen are Reilly, TJ and Muzzin. Muzzin can be a great shutdown Dman if his partner is not Holl.
Our first pairing of Reilly and TJ are good but Reilly needs to learn to play better D esp in an odd man rush situation.
The 5 forwards of the core in my mind are three forwards with points and 2 that plays great Defence but can also chip in offence on their own. The Leafs 5 forwards lack a faceoff man and a true shut down forward.

Individually they Leafs are more than enough to be a core player in any teams in the league but together they lack balance.

Crawford is underrated and much more proven than Campbell.

He has 5 seasons of more than 50 gp and .917sv% or higher in his career and was stellar in both cup runs with over 20-gp in each and a .924 and .932.

 

[Arzak]

Apparently some people from an alternate universe, are of the belief I predicted that Leafs would be in a season long wild card battle in an all CDN Div, where no wild card spots existed in this new format on our planet.

Using your parallel universe doppelganger to win an argument. The oldest trick in a book!

 

[Arzak]

Well Tampa happens to have a world-class D and goalie as part of their high concentration of cap%.

Not to mention players like Palat who IMHO could have a Selky if he played C. They got important goals from all around the roster (and all their stars..)


But hey who cares. When discussing Leafs players it's easy to ignore our team is playing offence first, the defence never tactic. On the team level it's glaring we are close to the top at goals for and against. Yet somehow let's all pretend our players are not preferring stats padding games all regular season.


We won't win the Cup with this core. We are not taking the regular season as preparation for playoffs. No one is trying to win games 1:0 or 2:0 in a hope the team def could be great in the Playoff when tight-checking starts.


Good thing we have Zeke here. I bet he can explain how we improve our goals against while losing no goals for in the process so our Marners and their contract don't look even worse...At this point, the team is more focusing on making our TOP 4 look great rather than teams overall performance.



If you are GM like Dubie, would you even care if the team improved if it meant Marner will be around top 50 in scoring hence your contracts will look like dog excrements making your job less secure?

 

[Arzak]

There would be someone to try and save us because the current management would be gone if they lose Matthews for nothing.

They lost him for nothing the moment he was signed. The expected return was the Cup.


They can't trade him, he is on 5 yrs contract. We have 3 years left. You can't trade UFA and you won't move player with NMC in his last year, so are we trading now? One more try and trade? Nope we'll hope to get out of the first round and win the Cup in 23/24 because we left ourselves with no other option.

Assuming Aston prefers Cup run with Leafs at the end of his contract as opposed to long summer and UFA $$$. Tavares will look great 3 years from now on our cheap second line ...


3 epic playoff runs ahead of us. You could trade Auson on 6/7/8 year contracts. Unless you are calling for trade now, nothing is coming back for AM.


NMC garanteed he won't be traded. Why would he deplete his new team of picks? He got the shortest route to UFA while being protected the last year specifically to avoid being moved.



Yes, in theory, you can trade him just before the last year and his NMC kicks in, but who would waste a pick for one year of service from pissed off Auston?


If we are not losing him for nothing he should be on the block already, he is not. We are losing him for nothing.

 

[Mess]

Exactly what I'm thinking. The lack of forwards scare me more than the defence right now.

There is this common theme that Leafs are such a deep team, but when one sits down and really look at things its really the core 4 that eat up 1/2 the cap and then a bunch of bottom filled aging players on cheap contracts making $1 mil or less that don't really need to be protected as part as key players to retain.

So when JT gets knocked out of action, and Matthews and Marner are shutdown and held to 1 goal in a playoff series combined then who is really expected to carry the team through the playoff rounds?

 

[Azail]

There is this common theme that Leafs are such a deep team, but when sits down and really look at things its really the core 4 that eat up 1/2 the cap and then a bunch of bottom filled aging players on cheap contracts making $1 mil or less that don't really need to be protected as part as key players to retain.

So when JT gets knocked out of action, and Matthews and Marner are shutdown and held to 1 goal in a playoff series combined then who is really expected to carry the team through the playoff rounds?

It is odd how people keep bringing this up. Their depth was actually the only reason they made it to game 7 this season. The big boys were the ones who didn't show up, and ultimately cost them.

 

[Mess]

It is odd how people keep bringing this up. Their depth was actually the only reason they made it to game 7 this season. The big boys were the ones who didn't show up, and ultimately cost them.

FYI..

Kerfoot, Galchenyuk, Hyman and Thornton each scored a single goal in 7 game series.

Simmonds, Foligno, Mikheyev, Engvall, Brooks, Nash all combined for ZERO.

So 4 goals from 11 forwards over 7 games as Leafs depth isn't exactly breaking any records here.

 

[The Podium]

There is this common theme that Leafs are such a deep team, but when one sits down and really look at things its really the core 4 that eat up 1/2 the cap and then a bunch of bottom filled aging players on cheap contracts making $1 mil or less that don't really need to be protected as part as key players to retain.

So when JT gets knocked out of action, and Matthews and Marner are shutdown and held to 1 goal in a playoff series combined then who is really expected to carry the team through the playoff rounds?

Hyman, Galchenyuk, Engvall, Kerfoot and Mikheyev, who are 5 of the 8 players you are referring to, are not aging players on cheap contract making 1 mil or less.

You really are only talking about Thornton, Spezza and Simmonds (and Foligno I guess), 1 of which was the furthest thing from the problem.

It wasnt about cap space. The problem was who the money was spent on. For example 1.5 for Simmonds or 1.8 for Coleman? 1.2 for Engvall or 925k for Goodrow?

 

[Azail]

FYI..

Kerfoot, Galchenyuk, Hyman and Thornton each scored a single goal in 7 game series.

Simmonds, Foligno, Mikheyev, Engvall, Brooks, Nash all combined for ZERO.

So 4 goals from 11 forwards over 7 games as Leafs depth isn't exactly breaking any records here.

Kerfoot - 6 points
Spezza - 5 points
Nylander who was with Kerfoot - 8 points
Gally - 4 points

If Matthews or Marner play even close to their regular season levels. We win. They combined for 1 goal.

Other teams don't have 10 players putting up PPG in the playoffs. Coleman who every gushes over had 11 points in 23 games for Tampa (I know he has other intangibles, but this isn't the conversation here). But do you know who they did have? Kucherov putting in 34 points in 23 games, Point PPG. Go look at the PPG for their other players.

 

[Mess]

Kerfoot - 6 points
Spezza - 5 points
Nylander who was with Kerfoot - 8 points
Gally - 4 points

If Matthews or Marner play even close to their regular season levels. We win. They combined for 1 goal.

Other teams don't have 10 players putting up PPG in the playoffs. Coleman who every gushes over had 11 points in 23 games for Tampa (I know he has other intangibles, but this isn't the conversation here). But do you know who they did have? Kucherov putting in 34 points in 23 games, Point PPG. Go look at the PPG for their other players.

Nylander is in the core 4 that uses up 1/2 the cap so why mention him as depth?. He is the only one of those 4 that contributed as expected but that didn't matter.

If you shut down the core 4 then you don't have the depth to win.. You know how I know that?

Because that is what actually happened and Leafs lost the series.

If you want to say the Matthews and Marner choked then that is same as saying Leafs depth couldn't overcome that. Leafs won 3 games with their offense you listed BUT lost 4.

The secret to beating the top heavy Leafs is focus on the core 4 and eliminate or reduce their impact or offset it with your offense, and the rest of Leafs won't beat you. That happened against Montreal and it happened against Columbus as well.

 

[Gabriel426]

They lost him for nothing the moment he was signed. The expected return was the Cup.


They can't trade him, he is on 5 yrs contract. We have 3 years left. You can't trade UFA and you won't move player with NMC in his last year, so are we trading now? One more try and trade? Nope we'll hope to get out of the first round and win the Cup in 23/24 because we left ourselves with no other option.

Assuming Aston prefers Cup run with Leafs at the end of his contract as opposed to long summer and UFA $$$. Tavares will look great 3 years from now on our cheap second line ...


3 epic playoff runs ahead of us. You could trade Auson on 6/7/8 year contracts. Unless you are calling for trade now, nothing is coming back for AM.


NMC garanteed he won't be traded. Why would he deplete his new team of picks? He got the shortest route to UFA while being protected the last year specifically to avoid being moved.



Yes, in theory, you can trade him just before the last year and his NMC kicks in, but who would waste a pick for one year of service from pissed off Auston?


If we are not losing him for nothing he should be on the block already, he is not. We are losing him for nothing.

Or he would just resign with the Leafs

 

[rumman]

Or he would just resign with the Leafs

I highly doubt he resigns here, this team are far from being winners and he’ll distance himself from this fact least said failures be partly to his lack of playoff success.

 

[Gabriel426]

I highly doubt he resigns here, this team are far from being winners and he’ll distance himself from this fact least said failures be partly to his lack of playoff success.

Depends on the Leafs. If the next three years are 1st round exits. I don’t think anyone want to stay

 

[rumman]

Depends on the Leafs. If the next three years are 1st round exits. I don’t think anyone want to stay

He’s their best player, one would think if he has playoff success the team will too. Anything can happen, but I don’t see them having playoff success this year.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

Nylander is in the core 4 that uses up 1/2 the cap so why mention him as depth?. He is the only one of those 4 that contributed as expected but that didn't matter.

If you shut down the core 4 then you don't have the depth to win.. You know how I know that?

Because that is what actually happened and Leafs lost the series.

If you want to say the Matthews and Marner choked then that is same as saying Leafs depth couldn't overcome that. Leafs won 3 games with their offense you listed BUT lost 4.

The secret to beating the top heavy Leafs is focus on the core 4 and eliminate or reduce their impact or offset it with your offense, and the rest of Leafs won't beat you. That happened against Montreal and it happened against Columbus as well.

If you "shut down" the four best forwards on any team in the league - including Tampa - that team will struggle to win a series against any other playoff team. You're saying the fact they spend that much money on those four players means they can't win without them. Take out the four best forwards on any team - teams that have more money spread out on their roster would still lose most likely.

So what you are saying? Absolutely true. Its just not saying a whole lot relative to the league IMO.

 

[Gabriel426]

Nylander is in the core 4 that uses up 1/2 the cap so why mention him as depth?. He is the only one of those 4 that contributed as expected but that didn't matter.

If you shut down the core 4 then you don't have the depth to win.. You know how I know that?

Because that is what actually happened and Leafs lost the series.

If you want to say the Matthews and Marner choked then that is same as saying Leafs depth couldn't overcome that. Leafs won 3 games with their offense you listed BUT lost 4.

The secret to beating the top heavy Leafs is focus on the core 4 and eliminate or reduce their impact or offset it with your offense, and the rest of Leafs won't beat you. That happened against Montreal and it happened against Columbus as well.

Well, the core four could split up and spread the offence. Then one of them will definitely be match up against 3rd pairings Dmen.

I always thought Keefe would try new things but man he is such a fair weather coach, when things are going, he is great but the moment that the team is not doing well, he either don’t do anything or just press the panic button.

 

[Gabriel426]

He’s their best player, one would think if he has playoff success the team will too. Anything can happen, but I don’t see them having playoff success this year.

As Leafs fans, we can only hope.
AM needs to dominate shifts in and shifts out. I think mentally he is not close to say Point or Kuch or even guys like Mack or Stone.
I think Spezza should be on his wing to mentor him

 

[Aashir]

As Leafs fans, we can only hope.
AM needs to dominate shifts in and shifts out. I think mentally he is not close to say Point or Kuch or even guys like Mack or Stone.
I think Spezza should be on his wing to mentor him

Stone got goosed, he had 0 points against Montreal. I wouldn’t put stone anywhere near Matthews either except if we are labeling them both chokers.

agree with the rest of this, even thought we should’ve tried Spezza - Matthews - Marner in the playoffs, which would’ve given us 2 playmakers and 1 shooter. However, Spezza can still score as well who Marner wold have another guy to pass to and that guy, unlike Hyman, would bury the chances. But the past is the past, time to look forward to a mostly bleak maple leafs future

 

[Gabriel426]

Stone got goosed, he had 0 points against Montreal. I wouldn’t put stone anywhere near Matthews either except if we are labeling them both chokers.

agree with the rest of this, even thought we should’ve tried Spezza - Matthews - Marner in the playoffs, which would’ve given us 2 playmakers and 1 shooter. However, Spezza can still score as well who Marner wold have another guy to pass to and that guy, unlike Hyman, would bury the chances. But the past is the past, time to look forward to a mostly bleak maple leafs future

I am in the camp to split up the Core Four into three lines.
Spezza can play with AM as I think AM needs another shooter to play with. I think if Kerfoot manages to stay, he is a good choice for that line.
Marner needs to play with two shooters and I think Robertson is one of them.
JT is interesting b/c I think he is at his best with grinders.
Then you have Willie who seems to excel when he is the Alpha.

 

[ACC1224]

I am in the camp to split up the Core Four into three lines.
Spezza can play with AM as I think AM needs another shooter to play with. I think if Kerfoot manages to stay, he is a good choice for that line.
Marner needs to play with two shooters and I think Robertson is one of them.
JT is interesting b/c I think he is at his best with grinders.
Then you have Willie who seems to excel when he is the Alpha.

I don't think Spezza would be able to handle those minutes.