How much faith do you have in the core 4?

[ShaneFalco]

I think we need more grit and intensity from our 40 million dollar foursome most of all. I don't really have much interest in brainstorming new and creative ways to complement a core of players that won't pull their own weight. Whether it's Babcock or Keefe, Bozak or Kerfoot, Gardiner or Muzzin, Andersen or Campbell, Hainsey or Brodie, Lamoriello or Dubas, seems to make no difference. While I'd like a Barclay Goodrow in our bottom six, he's unlikely to make any more of a difference than any of our previous roster moves.

I've said it before, he players themselves have called the team out - Muzzin, Rielly, Andersen.... and management has too but yet tries to bring in cheap vets to provide what the core lacks.

 

[zeke]

he was 22nd in Centers in 5V5 GF with him on the ice last season and 34th among centers with at least 500m TOI in 5V5 GF% last season...and with his age and lack of footspeed he's definitely on the back half of his career coming off a brutal concussion.

If you want to call him a borderline 1st line C sure, but not for long, and he's going to be on the wing soon.

sounds to me like you're comparing him to bunch of bottom line centers with limited minutes and easy competition.

Again, Tavares finished 12th in the league in fulltime C PPG last year, and over the last 2 years, in real minutes against real competition.

there's nothing "borderline" about his status as a good #1 C.

 

[ShaneFalco]

TB has 3 Star forwards (Kucherov, Stamkos and Point) which have Hart, Art Ross, 2 X Rocket Richard, and 2 X playoff leading goal scorer (Point) and 2 X playoff scoring leader (Kucherov) + Norris and Conn Symthe winning Dman (Hedman) and Vezina and Conn Smythe winning Goalie (Vasilevskiy) for a total cap consumption of $42.125,000 mil AAV

vs

Leafs 4 core Forwards (including a Calder and Rocket) + backup level/experienced goalie (Campbell) for a total cap consumption of $42,155,616 mil AAV.

Yeah but the Leafs are good during the regular season

 

[rumman]

we'll see how well they do this year when they lose the huge cap advantage they had this year.

Why worry about Tampa’s cap issues, isn’t this a Leaf forum, or is it change the topic, change the narrative?

 

[Mickey Marner]

I've said it before, he players themselves have called the team out - Muzzin, Rielly, Andersen.... and management has too but yet tries to bring in cheap vets to provide what the core lacks.

Management's disbelief may be suspended beyond belief, but mine has become thoroughly grounded over the years of failure. Another first round loss and it'll be subterranean.

 

[zeke]

Also no way he is borderline top 10.

McDavid
McKinnon
Crosby
Bergeron
Barzal
Barkov
Aho
Matthews
Draisaitl
Point

That's 10 off the top of my head and he's not close to their level as a centre.

Last 2yrs:

Aho (23): 19:27, 41gl/81pt pace, 54.5xgf%
Tavares (30): 18:55, 31gl/76pt pace, 53.4xgf%
Point (24): 18:41, 32gl/75pt pace, 56.8xgf%
Bergeron (35): 18:30, 39gl/74pt pace, 59.1xgf%
Barzal (23): 19:28, 24gl/70pt pace, 54.7xgf%

 

[zeke]

Why worry about Tampa’s cap issues, isn’t this a Leaf forum, or is it change the topic, change the narrative?

you're the one making claims about cap structure, not me.

 

[Stephen]

true - toronto had no problem succeeding in the regular season with $40m to 4 players.

Let's see if tampa can keep winning as much as toronto now that they have to pay $36m to their 4.

The comparison would be more apt if some combination of our top 4 guys could provide Norris caliber defense and Vezina caliber goaltending. Or deliver 2 Conn Smythes.

As it stands with 2 straight cups, Tampa can ride off into the sunset and be a complete tire fire and lose every comparison in every metric with Toronto for the next few years and I they’d be alright with it.

 

[rumman]

you're the one making claims about cap structure, not me.

Yes, the LEAFS cap structure. I’m not interested in how the Stanley Cup Champions are struggling to make their team successful.

 

[makbeer]

sounds to me like you're comparing him to bunch of bottom line centers with limited minutes and easy competition.

Again, Tavares finished 12th in the league in fulltime C PPG last year, and over the last 2 years, in real minutes against real competition.

there's nothing "borderline" about his status as a good #1 C.

Lol Nope.

They are mostly first liners playing first line competition, and don't have the luxury of Matthews to take away attention.

Last 2yrs:

Aho (23): 19:27, 41gl/81pt pace, 54.5xgf%
Tavares (30): 18:55, 31gl/76pt pace, 53.4xgf%
Point (24): 18:41, 32gl/75pt pace, 56.8xgf%
Bergeron (35): 18:30, 39gl/74pt pace, 59.1xgf%
Barzal (23): 19:28, 24gl/70pt pace, 54.7xgf%

So would you take Tavares over any of those centres?

 

[zeke]

Yes, the LEAFS cap structure. I’m not interested in how the Stanley Cup Champions are struggling to make their team successful.

again, the cup champs just won with $36m to 4 players.

 

[zeke]

Lol Nope.

They are mostly first liners playing first line competition, and don't have the luxury of Matthews to take away attention.

I'll say confidently that your list where he ranks #34 is not a list of top liners.

So would you take Tavares over any of those centres?

I said Tavares ranked 12th offensively with good underlying metrics, making him a good first line C borderline top 10.

You responded by listing a bunch of top 10 centers and saying he wasn't close to them. So I showed you that he was.

 

[Stephen]

again, the cup champs just won with $36m to 4 players.

It doesn’t really help your argument when one is a franchise defenseman and the other might be the best goalie of his generation and they’re still paying 10% less than Toronto for that foursome.

We can’t blame the Leafs 100% on this one because Florida clearly had some tax advantages. Nonetheless, seeing as how Tampa Bay won by the narrowest of 1-0 margins vs the Islanders and Canadiens in their elimination games, it kind of shows that as great as Tampa is, sometimes difference between victory and defeat is razor thin even when you’ve done everything right.

And the implication for Toronto is if we’re slightly worse at everything and a little more expensive than The Best, it leaves us pretty far away from our championship goals.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Absolutely none. Matthews is too busy living the instagram life with Bieber to care about hockey anymore. He'll come back, score his goals in the regular season and disappear like casper come the first round again.

No humility.

 

[zeke]

It doesn’t really help your argument when one is a franchise defenseman and the other might be the best goalie of his generation and they’re still paying 10% less than Toronto for that foursome.

We can’t blame the Leafs 100% on this one because Florida clearly had some tax advantages. Nonetheless, seeing as how Tampa Bay won by the narrowest of 1-0 margins vs the Islanders and Canadiens in their elimination games, it kind of shows that as great as Tampa is, sometimes difference between victory and defeat is razor thin even when you’ve done everything right.

And the implication for Toronto is if we’re slightly worse at everything and a little more expensive than The Best, it leaves us pretty far away from our championship goals.

and yet, we'll likely be up in the Top 5 this year.

what's actually impressive about Toronto's performance last year is that they're in the window where they have zero impact ELC players, because of previous draft failures. When Tampa won their first cup they benefitted from having 3 impact players on ELCs - #2C Cirelli, #3D Sergachev, #4D Cernak. And then they were able to get away with having none this year only because of some weird cap luck.

But that should change soon for Toronto, with top guys like Robertson/Amirov/Sandin/Liljegren banging on the door with a number of other interesting prospects behind them too.

 

[ToneDog]

I think we need more grit and intensity from our 40 million dollar foursome most of all. I don't really have much interest in brainstorming new and creative ways to complement a core of players that won't pull their own weight. Whether it's Babcock or Keefe, Bozak or Kerfoot, Gardiner or Muzzin, Andersen or Campbell, Hainsey or Brodie, Lamoriello or Dubas, seems to make no difference. While I'd like a Barclay Goodrow in our bottom six, he's unlikely to make any more of a difference than any of our previous roster moves.

You might get some from 34 and 91 but that is not who 16 and 88 are. As such you have to surround them with it. Other than Hyman we get virtually none from the rest of our forwards in addition to not much of anything else. That is where I see the problem.

 

[Stephen]

and yet, we'll likely be up in the Top 5 this year.

what's actually impressive about Toronto's performance last year is that they're in the window where they have zero impact ELC players, because of previous draft failures. When Tampa won their first cup they benefitted from having 3 impact players on ELCs - #2C Cirelli, #3D Sergachev, #4D Cernak. And then they were able to get away with having none this year only because of some weird cap luck.

But that should change soon for Toronto, with top guys like Robertson/Amirov/Sandin/Liljegren banging on the door with a number of other interesting prospects behind them too.

We definitely need ELCs to help average down the salaries in conjunction with the cheap UFAs, but this strategy obviously has some pros and cons.

You need a balance between the young legs but also need to have to maintain an experience level throughout the roster so you’re not carrying 3x rookies into the next Game 7 and wondering why the team is playing scared.

 

[zeke]

We definitely need ELCs to help average down the salaries in conjunction with the cheap UFAs, but this strategy obviously has some pros and cons.

You need a balance between the young legs but also need to have to maintain an experience level throughout the roster so you’re not carrying 3x rookies into the next Game 7 and wondering why the team is playing scared.

Thornton 41
Spezza 37
Foligno 33
Simmonds 32
Nash 31
Muzzin 31
Brodie 30
Bogosian 30
Tavares 30

Hyman 28
Holl 28
Mikheyev 26
Kerfoot 26
Galchenyuk 26
Rielly 26


I think we were fine in the experience department. Could have used more young legs, tho.

 

[egd27]

Matthews is the only one who is a must keep because he is the best goal-scorer in the league..

The other 3 can be traded as long as it leads to moves that improve the team.

I'd like to see him prove that without Marner on his wing. Even JT outscored AM (G/GP) during the 18-19 season when he had Marner as a line mate.

 

[Trapper]

again, the cup champs just won with $36m to 4 players.

2 forwards, 1 D, 1 goalie and a bridge forward.
I would prefer that balance of 2 core not forwards on the team.
A catalyst up front, an anchor on D and a steady goaltender.
Leading the core within the core.
Better balance and a solid 8-10 mil 3rd line.

 

[egd27]

the team that just won the cup for the 2nd year in a row paid $36m to it's top 4 players. seems like a good strategy.

One a Rocket winner, one a Hart winner, one a Norris & Conn Smythe winner, and one a Vezina and Conn Smythe winner.,,,,,,,,,THAT is a good strategy.

What Kid Kyle has done.....not so much. (Though he did manage to sign a Rocket winner)

 

[egd27]

Having Tavares in the lineup though would have given Montreal two very good lines to worry about opposed to always sticking their shutdown line on Matthews every single game.

Say Tavares lights it up a game or two, we probably would have seen Danault out on the ice against Tavares here and there giving some more room for Matthews.

Or the incompetent coach could have moved Marner to another line to provide another threat. But that was too much for him to figure out.

 

[IPS]

I'd like to see him prove that without Marner on his wing. Even JT outscored AM (G/GP) during the 18-19 season when he had Marner as a line mate.

I believe Matthews has improved since then. Not taking away from Marner's ability to elevate linemates.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

again, the cup champs just won with $36m to 4 players.

Doesnt this just support the trade Marner narrative?

what everyone’s been saying is that half the cap on 4 FORWARDS is unprecedented.

You respond by showing a team with (not quite) half the cap on TWO forwards, a Norris D, and Vezina goalie?

Its bewildering. Bewildering.

 

[rumman]

Doesnt this just support the trade Marner narrative?

what everyone’s been saying is that half the cap on 4 FORWARDS is unprecedented.

You respond by showing a team with (not quite) half the cap on TWO forwards, a Norris D, and Vezina goalie?

Its bewildering. Bewildering.

Does not understand.