How long do you except the Nylander at center experiment to last?

[thusk]

I don't hate Tavares. I don't like his contract, but I'm smart enough to understand that's on Dubas, not Tavares.

If someone wants to say he's almost ppg, I have no issue with that. If someone says he's ppg and therefore belongs at 2C, I have an issue with that, as particularly in his case, the former does not support the latter, as I have pointed out numerous times. The usual response is "PPG!"

I'm not sure you want to go to the playoffs. Against Florida, Willy led the team in both goals and points. Yes, he was -2. So was JT. (Same line - funny how that works.)

I fully agree about the pairings - the best part is they finally separate Willy and JT.

Like i said, put tavaree on free agency and he probably hit 9M. Kadri got 7M until 38 when he reach 62 pts +/ 82 game range only once in carreer. So if youre thinking jt is overpay of 4-5 M...

And you know last 4 season, the difference between nylander and jt at 5v5 is 4 pts/ season. If youre removing last season( who was maybe nylander carreer season), thats number drop at 1 pts/ season. 5v5 thats the only place line matter... so if youre considerating jt like 3rd line production, youre better to consider nylander the same way, 1 to 4 pts is not what making difference between a 2C or 3C


And youre also talking about jt just being good on pp but 60% of nylander playoff production and 75% of nylander goal came from man advantage last season

Last 2 year only 35% of his production came at 5v5 and only 14 % of his goal vs 50% of jt production and 71% of jt goal .

So i ask it again, whats really matter regular season or playoff

 

[Ciao]

Nylander at centre could be an exception all year.

We might expect to accept this exception, if it all works out.

Are we discussing what expect or except?

 

[Nineteen67]

They didn't know what the lines were in the playoffs and it appears they still don’t.

Put Nylander with Matthews and Marner with Tavares -

They know they don’t have a 3rd center so quit trying fit a square peg in a round hole that only messes up everything else.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

They didn't know what the lines were in the playoffs and it appears they still don’t.

Put Nylander with Matthews and Marner with Tavares -

They know they don’t have a 3rd center so quit trying fit a square peg in a round hole that only messes up everything else.

Minten has looked pretty good maybe he can be the 3C, or maybe Holmberg.

For months I have said this team needs 2 things.

1 a 3C.

2, one more piece on defense.

If they the 3C in house then that elminates a major need.

 

[Al14]

Minten has looked pretty good maybe he can be the 3C, or maybe Holmberg.

For months I have said this team needs 2 things.

1 a 3C.

2, one more piece on defense.

If they the 3C in house then that elminates a major need.

That 'high-end' piece on defense should have been acquired by trading Nylander before July 1st !!!

JMHO.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Like i said, put tavaree on free agency and he probably hit 9M. Kadri got 7M until 38 when he reach 62 pts +/ 82 game range only once in carreer. So if youre thinking jt is overpay of 4-5 M...

And you know last 4 season, the difference between nylander and jt at 5v5 is 4 pts/ season. If youre removing last season( who was maybe nylander carreer season), thats number drop at 1 pts/ season. 5v5 thats the only place line matter... so if youre considerating jt like 3rd line production, youre better to consider nylander the same way, 1 to 4 pts is not what making difference between a 2C or 3C


And youre also talking about jt just being good on pp but 60% of nylander playoff production and 75% of nylander goal came from man advantage last season

Last 2 year only 35% of his production came at 5v5 and only 14 % of his goal vs 50% of jt production and 71% of jt goal .

So i ask it again, whats really matter regular season or playoff

So you're completely changing the conversation from ppg to ES %? Does that mean you agree that Willy's 13 more goals and 18 more points at ES is relevant?

Nylander got 9 goals on the PP last season. How is that 75% of 40?

Last two seasons Nylander had 74 goals, 52 at ES - that's over 70%, not 14%.
JT had 63 goals, of which 35 were at ES - that's 56%, not 71%.

Last year in the playoffs, yes, JT had a higher % of points at even strength. But they had the SAME NUMBER of points at ES - it's just that Willy had more on the PP, despite being on the second unit.

JT might get 7 or 8 (or maybe even 9) as a free agent from a team that needs him as a 1C. But here, as a 2C (or maybe 3C), and with his declining ES production and speed, I think he's worth 6-7.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Minten has looked pretty good maybe he can be the 3C, or maybe Holmberg.

For months I have said this team needs 2 things.

1 a 3C.

2, one more piece on defense.

If they the 3C in house then that elminates a major need.

I can see Minten there in a year or two, moving JT to LW, but for now, JT is a more than capable 3C.

D will likely come later, closer to the TDL.

 

[notDatsyuk]

That 'high-end' piece on defense should have been acquired by trading Nylander before July 1st !!!

JMHO.

As always, the questions are 'who and how?' Name a player, a team, and explain how a deal would work for both teams, including cap.

 

[thusk]

So you're completely changing the conversation from ppg to ES %? Does that mean you agree that Willy's 13 more goals and 18 more points at ES is relevant?

Nylander got 9 goals on the PP last season. How is that 75% of 40?

Last two seasons Nylander had 74 goals, 52 at ES - that's over 70%, not 14%.
JT had 63 goals, of which 35 were at ES - that's 56%, not 71%.

Last year in the playoffs, yes, JT had a higher % of points at even strength. But they had the SAME NUMBER of points at ES - it's just that Willy had more on the PP, despite being on the second unit.

JT might get 7 or 8 (or maybe even 9) as a free agent from a team that needs him as a 1C. But here, as a 2C (or maybe 3C), and with his declining ES production and speed, I think he's worth 6-7.

You started to change that conversation by trying to discredit impact of JT number by using his pp number... but whats the difference between scoring on pp or at 4v4 or 3v3 when line just doesn't matter???

And i suggest you to completly read message before respond, inclearly talked about nylander playoff number where he had 7 goal last 2 year and only 1 at 5v5. 1 of 7= 14%. Tavares 5 of hisb7 goal came at 5v5, 5 of 7 = 71%

In your mind the winged wirh 87 points in 82 game, 40 goal in his carreer season deserve 9-10 but a c who had 80 pts in 80, 36 goal deserve 6-7because they playing a different kind of game...

Tavares can play on a different line but will not play like a 3rd C like reinhart was not a 3rd line winger like kessel in pittsburgh was not a 3rd line winger, like sharp in chicago was not a 3rd line winger... they just split their strenght to be even better because its most harder stopping 3 line unstead of 2...because if you still making a paper line up with best player together... tavares is 2C and nylander 2RW

Where leafs offensive drop last season, when keefe separated knies of o'ielly to send him on 1st line. it was for me keefe biggest mistake... so unstead of having 3 dangerous line.. oreilly line since knies left didn't create a lot of offensive.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You started to change that conversation by trying to discredit impact of JT number by using his pp number... but whats the difference between scoring on pp or at 4v4 or 3v3 when line just doesn't matter???

And i suggest you to completly read message before respond, inclearly talked about nylander playoff number where he had 7 goal last 2 year and only 1 at 5v5. 1 of 7= 14%. Tavares 5 of hisb7 goal came at 5v5, 5 of 7 = 71%

In your mind the winged wirh 87 points in 82 game, 40 goal in his carreer season deserve 9-10 but a c who had 80 pts in 80, 36 goal deserve 6-7because they playing a different kind of game...

Tavares can play on a different line but will not play like a 3rd C like reinhart was not a 3rd line winger like kessel in pittsburgh was not a 3rd line winger, like sharp in chicago was not a 3rd line winger... they just split their strenght to be even better because its most harder stopping 3 line unstead of 2...because if you still making a paper line up with best player together... tavares is 2C and nylander 2RW

Where leafs offensive drop last season, when keefe separated knies of o'ielly to send him on 1st line. it was for me keefe biggest mistake... so unstead of having 3 dangerous line.. oreilly line since knies left didn't create a lot of offensive.

You finally got it! PP doesn't have any bearing on even strength play.

 

[thusk]

You finally got it! PP doesn't have any bearing on even strength play.

And 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v5 count at even strenght but overal dont making you a better 5v5 player the same way pp dont... so just dont understand why we should give more credit to pts get in those situation than pp? Can you explain me? Thats why i always using 5v5 stats and never even strenght. I just dont care to know if you can score at 3v3, come playoff thats doesn't matter

 

[Clark4Ever]

I think Minten deserves a look at the 3C slot to start the season.

 

[Sypher04]

Before people who doubted Nylander at C take a victory lap here, just keep in mind he only played like 2 preseason games at the role before moving to RW now. That’s not Nylander failing to stick as a center, that’s coaching not being committed to the idea from the get go.

It proves nothing whatsoever about capability. All it proves is that they value him as a RW, where he’s been excellent, and want to keep him there.

Honestly our 2-4RW looks pretty weak without Nylander there anyway. Getting a quality 3C is gonna be easier than a Nylander quality 2RW.

IF they were to find a way to sign Kane, I’d think Nylander goes back to the middle and gets some actual runway to stick there. Who knows, maybe that’s why they wanted to look in the first place - in case.

 

[Mess]

That 'high-end' piece on defense should have been acquired by trading Nylander before July 1st !!!

JMHO.

Ideally, yes for the good of balancing the teams cap spending and strength.

However remember Brendan Shanahan (according to reports by Chris Jonhston) claimed all 4 core were coming back before Treliving was even hired.

So the new GM's hands were tied upon taking the job, by his own boss.

The goal has been to get Nylander signed now and an attempt at C was a way to try increase Nylander's value to the team as a centre rather than a winger to match Willy' $10 mil ask.

The proven failed "We can and we will" plan to bring playoff success has been tried and tested but its still the Shan-a-plan.

When the Leafs chose to sign Tavares then it should have meant Willy or Marner should have been dealt for a top pairing Dman.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

That 'high-end' piece on defense should have been acquired by trading Nylander before July 1st !!!

JMHO.

Perhaps but it wasn't

 

[Strangle]

I'd say indefinitely.
Nylander is being groomed as the leafs next long-term 2nd line center solution once Tavares is gone (*as early as next july 1st following his final signing bonus payment) at which point, Tavares is only owed like 700k in actual money for his final season... so anything short of a SCF's appearance this upcoming season and Tavares may be good as gone... it would be financially prudent for both the Leafs and Tavares to mutually agree to contract termination at that point, especially if another failed season occurs with Tavares "leading the charge"

We as fans, really need to get behind this idea. If Nylander can kill it as a center, it makes the team a lot better

The problem with that is Nylander doesn't have a contract for next year so the idea that he's being groomed as the long term #2 center is objectively wrong because he needs an extension, you can't groom somebody for position if you don't know they will be around.

Just because he doesn’t have a contract right now doesn’t mean he won’t be around

 

[thusk]

Before people who doubted Nylander at C take a victory lap here, just keep in mind he only played like 2 preseason games at the role before moving to RW now. That’s not Nylander failing to stick as a center, that’s coaching not being committed to the idea from the get go.

It proves nothing whatsoever about capability. All it proves is that they value him as a RW, where he’s been excellent, and want to keep him there.

Honestly our 2-4RW looks pretty weak without Nylander there anyway. Getting a quality 3C is gonna be easier than a Nylander quality 2RW.

IF they were to find a way to sign Kane, I’d think Nylander goes back to the middle and gets some actual runway to stick there. Who knows, maybe that’s why they wanted to look in the first place - in case.

Whatever what leafs taking as decision with nylander as c or RW, for me thats not changing lot of thing... they need to split core 4 in 3 different line... the way they are build is the hawks/ pittsburgh way...and what those team did to have succes, they split their core

Chicago with toews and hossa on 1st, kane on 2nd and sharp on 3rd

Pittsburgh with crosby 1st, malkin 2nd, kessel 3rd...

The strategy of using all your egg together just not working, maybe its time to try something else ( not just like 1st 10 game of regular season

 

[horner]

Willy is better on the wing use his speed.

 

[Sypher04]

Whatever what leafs taking as decision with nylander as c or RW, for me thats not changing lot of thing... they need to split core 4 in 3 different line... the way they are build is the hawks/ pittsburgh way...and what those team did to have succes, they split their core

Chicago with toews and hossa on 1st, kane on 2nd and sharp on 3rd

Pittsburgh with crosby 1st, malkin 2nd, kessel 3rd...

The strategy of using all your egg together just not working, maybe its time to try something else ( not just like 1st 10 game of regular season

I agree! I say keep him on the wing and line him up with Domi on the opposite side. Put someone reliable who isn’t an offensive black hole between them. Or even Domi in the middle. Then put Knies with JT and maybe Jarnkrok.

Pipe dream or not, Kane really would balance everything.

Bertuzzi - Matthews - Kane
Knies - Tavares - Marner
Nylander - Domi - Jarnkrok
Gregor - Kampf - Reaves

Few, if any, teams could matchup with that top 9

 

[thusk]

I agree! I say keep him on the wing and line him up with Domi on the opposite side. Put someone reliable who isn’t an offensive black hole between them. Or even Domi in the middle. Then put Knies with JT and maybe Jarnkrok.

Pipe dream or not, Kane really would balance everything.

Bertuzzi - Matthews - Kane
Knies - Tavares - Marner
Nylander - Domi - Jarnkrok
Gregor - Kampf - Reaves

Few, if any, teams could matchup with that top 9

Forgot kane, leafs dont have cap space for him but even without him they still better at 3 good line than 2 coming playoff

 

[notDatsyuk]

And 3v3 or 4v4 or 6v5 count at even strenght but overal dont making you a better 5v5 player the same way pp dont... so just dont understand why we should give more credit to pts get in those situation than pp? Can you explain me? Thats why i always using 5v5 stats and never even strenght. I just dont care to know if you can score at 3v3, come playoff thats doesn't matter

Right, so for JT it's actually 37 instead of 41 points that are relevant to him being 2C or 3C. Makes my point even stronger.

Thanks.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I think Minten deserves a look at the 3C slot to start the season.

Probably better for his development to get more time as a 1C in the minors, and JT is still capable of holding down the 3C spot.

Maybe next year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Before people who doubted Nylander at C take a victory lap here, just keep in mind he only played like 2 preseason games at the role before moving to RW now. That’s not Nylander failing to stick as a center, that’s coaching not being committed to the idea from the get go.

It proves nothing whatsoever about capability. All it proves is that they value him as a RW, where he’s been excellent, and want to keep him there.

Honestly our 2-4RW looks pretty weak without Nylander there anyway. Getting a quality 3C is gonna be easier than a Nylander quality 2RW.

IF they were to find a way to sign Kane, I’d think Nylander goes back to the middle and gets some actual runway to stick there. Who knows, maybe that’s why they wanted to look in the first place - in case.

I think we're jumping the gun assuming Minten is going to be the 3C. Much more likely, as Tre said, it's just to give him a look/feel. Then he goes to the minors, and Willy goes back to centre.

I think Willy and JT as 2C and 3C (in whatever order you like) make us much better there, and will mitigate the weaker RW options.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I agree! I say keep him on the wing and line him up with Domi on the opposite side. Put someone reliable who isn’t an offensive black hole between them. Or even Domi in the middle. Then put Knies with JT and maybe Jarnkrok.

Pipe dream or not, Kane really would balance everything.

Bertuzzi - Matthews - Kane
Knies - Tavares - Marner
Nylander - Domi - Jarnkrok
Gregor - Kampf - Reaves

Few, if any, teams could matchup with that top 9

The Kane pipe dream aside, I agree - split the four up among three lines, which is what moving Willy to C will accomplish, along with the even more important need of getting him away from JT.

I think without Kane, we keep Mitch with Matty and Bert. Domi/Nylander/X and Knies/Tavares/Y for the other two lines, with X and Y being whichever of Jarnkrok, Lafferty, or whoever works best on each line.

 

[Sypher04]

Forgot kane, leafs dont have cap space for him but even without him they still better at 3 good line than 2 coming playoff

I don’t think it’s at all impossible they could sign Kane. Really just depends on what his priorities are. If he wants to be paid then he’ll end up in Buffalo probably or some other non contender. If he wants his best chance to win while also staying within driving distance of his dad, then his options are much more limited and his cap will have to reflect that. I’m not expecting it but I’d hardly be shocked