How In The World Is Tim Thomas Not In The HHOF?

[Bear of Bad News]

If you guys keep up the namecalling, I'm going to actually have to do some work here.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

It’s not what they say it’s how they say it. I’m not arguing that Dryden accomplished more than Thomas. But, it’s crazy that a guy literally just asks a question and gets guys like you giving weird condescending responses.

It’s just not how people would have a discussion with a stranger in real life. It’s very bizarre behavior and it’s a fairly unkind.

...yup, it was all us...apologies...

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

I miss your useless nonsense posts.

Funny how they are more relevant to a thread than most of the other posts

...I'm trying to be Kinder, Gentler...it's hard here sometimes...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

The literal meaning of the word exceptional.

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In Dryden's worst season compared to his peers, his save percentage was 2 standard deviations above average. His best was 5. They aren't comparable, and comparing them would make Tim Thomas look really bad. I'd recommend against it. Dryden's peak is comparable to Hasek's. Thomas is not in the same stratosphere.

Playing behind 8 hall of famers kinda helped a bit...

 

[Jwads]

Cheechoo has one major award, Thomas 3. Cheechoo has 0 memorable playoff performances, Thomas arguably single handedly won the cup for the Bruins with his 963 save percentage in the finals.

I'll never pass up an opportunity to stand up for my boy Cheechoo

 

[bambamcam4ever]

To provide some missing context/info:

He actually became the starter in the 05-06 season. When he was finally called up in Jan 2006, halfway through the season, he started 35 of 41 games after that. And he played excellent on that pretty bad Bruins team. Posted .917 sv% vs a league average of .901% (same as it currently is this year).

He was injured in 09-10 with a bad hip. Clearly affected his play and why he lost the starters job, to Rask (who was playing at a Vezina-level). After he got offseason surgery he returned to his excellent form. Also, not sure what you're referring to with allowed 5 goals in his only OG start in this season.

It's important to note that consistently over his career and at multiple levels, Thomas faced more shots per game than the other goalies on his team. Which I would guess was due to his awful rebound control and pick handling, plus I remember reading that he instructed his defense to not attempt to block shots from distance. So in 05-06, despite having a better SV% than soon to be former NHLer Hannu Toivonen, Thomas actually had a higher GAA.

 

[RooBicks]

Pretty simple really. He had 3.5 good seasons, total. And if you watched those Bruins teams, you'd know that he did it behind prime Chara and an extremely organized defense core who allowed him to play with borderline reckless aggression cutting down angles, etc. The Bruins were a prototype for modern approaches that force shooters to the outside and concede low percentage shots while disallowing the puck to enter the scoring era and cross-ice passes and, being on that frontier, at times held distinct gameplan advantages. I would go so far as to say that there are very few other teams on which Thomas would have met with the same success at that time - the two were very well matched and it elevated Thomas above what his raw ability would indicate.

In other words: he's not a hall of fame goalie. And one more thing: replace him with Luongo in 2011 and he is a stanley cup winner. Throw Thomas on the Canucks and I'd be genuinely surprised if they do better given their own defensive structure and tendencies.

 

[Sheppy]

Pretty simple really. He had 3.5 good seasons, total. And if you watched those Bruins teams, you'd know that he did it behind prime Chara and an extremely organized defense core who allowed him to play with borderline reckless aggression cutting down angles, etc. The Bruins were a prototype for modern approaches that force shooters to the outside and concede low percentage shots while disallowing the puck to enter the scoring era and cross-ice passes and, being on that frontier, at times held distinct gameplan advantages. I would go so far as to say that there are very few other teams on which Thomas would have met with the same success at that time - the two were very well matched and it elevated Thomas above what his raw ability would indicate.

In other words: he's not a hall of fame goalie. And one more thing: replace him with Luongo in 2011 and he is a stanley cup winner. Throw Thomas on the Canucks and I'd be genuinely surprised if they do better given their own defensive structure and tendencies.

I 100% disagree with your last paragraph.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

His career was short. That’s pretty much it.

I love that politics gets blamed though, because it assumes his don’t match with like 95% of the league’s (and probably the decision-makers in the HHOF as well). You’d probably have a better argument if you said he was a doomsday prepper and kind of lost the plot for a while and that’s why the HoF avoided him.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Let's be honest, this is the entire reason.

Eh, I don't agree with that.

Like if he just goes to the whitehouse without a fuss but still sits out that 12-13 season in a contentious manner and refuses to report to team traded for him, and then doesn't look good or starter material when he comes back and then is done for good right after, etc. I still think it's likely the same story with him and the Hall.

I included that tidbit not because i think it played a huge factor, moreso it's a piece to the story of him perhaps just not being committed to his team and the game in his latter years and might explain the dropoff.

Like I doubt the people who vote for the Hall really care if he didn't go to the WH or not...or like it's some dealbreaker for them.

 

[Bank Shot]

His career was short. That’s pretty much it.

I love that politics gets blamed though, because it assumes his don’t match with like 95% of the league’s (and probably the decision-makers in the HHOF as well). You’d probably have a better argument if you said he was a doomsday prepper and kind of lost the plot for a while and that’s why the HoF avoided him.

Dryden and Orr and Bossy all had short careers as well.

Their accomplishments are better, but their career lengths never get talked about in terms of hurting where they are on all time lists. The short career lengths probably help them more than hurt them.

There are lots of guys in the Hall of Fame that never won and individual awards, and were never in any top ten discussions.

7 years and the individual accomplishments Thomas has should be enough to get him into the Hall. When you have guys like Cheevers, Duff, Lowe, Gillies, and others of that ilk in the Hall, its insane that Thomas isn't there.

 

[Bruins4Lifer]

It's important to note that consistently over his career and at multiple levels, Thomas faced more shots per game than the other goalies on his team. Which I would guess was due to his awful rebound control and pick handling, plus I remember reading that he instructed his defense to not attempt to block shots from distance. So in 05-06, despite having a better SV% than soon to be former NHLer Hannu Toivonen, Thomas actually had a higher GAA.

I don't know if 1 extra shot per game is that significant or noteworthy, nor can you really attribute it to just 2 factors like you have listed when there are other ones to consider. But if you do, are we to consider it as being a more difficult shot (from a bad rebound) to save or a less difficult one (from an unblocked one from distance)?

 

[WATTAGE4451]

It’s not what they say it’s how they say it. I’m not arguing that Dryden accomplished more than Thomas. But, it’s crazy that a guy literally just asks a question and gets guys like you giving weird condescending responses.

It’s just not how people would have a discussion with a stranger in real life. It’s very bizarre behavior and it’s a fairly unkind.

I think people read and interpret tone how they want to. Was posting definition of exceptional perhaps condescending? Maybe a little, but it wasnt worthy of the unhinged calling a seething dhead.

The guy gave an explanation and if you are that insecure over a little overexplaning, then you got issues. It was hardly that offensive to blow up like that.

 

[MetalheadPenguinsFan]

He’s a douchebag with questionable political views

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Dryden and Orr and Bossy all had short careers as well.

Their accomplishments are better, but their career lengths never get talked about in terms of hurting where they are on all time lists. The short career lengths probably help them more than hurt them.

There are lots of guys in the Hall of Fame that never won and individual awards, and were never in any top ten discussions.

7 years and the individual accomplishments Thomas has should be enough to get him into the Hall. When you have guys like Cheevers, Duff, Lowe, Gillies, and others of that ilk in the Hall, its insane that Thomas isn't there.

Dryden had 5 vezinas vs thomas 2 in his short career. Considering they had careers of basically 7 vs 8 seasons. Thats pretty sugnificant difference in number of vezinas. Dyden also had calder in rookie year.

Orr had a norris like 8 straight years.

Bossy is all time leader in avg goals per regular season game. 3rd in assists per regular season game, tied for most 50 goal seasons. And has most consecutive 50 goal seasons.

Therefore, i think they earned being exception to short career more than thomas. That said id still lean on saying yes to thomas but understand why he isnt.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Dryden had 5 vezinas vs thomas 2 in his short career. Considering they had careers of basically 7 vs 8 seasons. Thats pretty sugnificant difference in number of vezinas. Dyden also had calder in rookie year.

Orr had a norris like 8 straight years.

Bossy is all time leader in avg goals per regular season game. 3rd in assists per regular season game, tied for most 50 goal seasons. And has most consecutive 50 goal seasons.

Therefore, i think they earned being exception to short career more than thomas. That said id still lean on saying yes to thomas but understand why he isnt.

Dryden's Vezinas are Jennings trophies, not voted on awards

 

[mouser]

Question boils down to was his career peak enough to overcome his lack of longevity and accompanying display of consistency?

 

[Voight]

I ask again, what's a comparable player who made the HHoF without having his career be cut short by injury or similar reason, who for all intents and purposes provided NHL quality play for 5 seasons?

Bill Durnan.

 

[Voight]

Fun trivia - rattlesnakes are not poisonous. They're venomous.

Also, what the hell happened to this thread while I was on a call? Everyone got mad.

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Don't pretend like you were actually working c'mon now

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Don't pretend like you were actually working c'mon now

 

[Voight]

He’s a douchebag with questionable political views

In what way are they questionable? He isn't out here calling himself a national socialist.

If you dont agree with his views thats fine, but calling them questionable is odd.

 

[NVious]

Pretty simple really. He had 3.5 good seasons, total. And if you watched those Bruins teams, you'd know that he did it behind prime Chara and an extremely organized defense core who allowed him to play with borderline reckless aggression cutting down angles, etc. The Bruins were a prototype for modern approaches that force shooters to the outside and concede low percentage shots while disallowing the puck to enter the scoring era and cross-ice passes and, being on that frontier, at times held distinct gameplan advantages. I would go so far as to say that there are very few other teams on which Thomas would have met with the same success at that time - the two were very well matched and it elevated Thomas above what his raw ability would indicate.

In other words: he's not a hall of fame goalie. And one more thing: replace him with Luongo in 2011 and he is a stanley cup winner. Throw Thomas on the Canucks and I'd be genuinely surprised if they do better given their own defensive structure and tendencies.

And yet they won nothing without him and even had some monumental collapses

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Neither one was "mediocre" by any reasonable definition of that word. Even relative to the NHL, they were above average (and as you note, for a long time).

I’m honestly astounded some people don’t understand how difficult is to stay in playing shape for that long.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Neither one was "mediocre" by any reasonable definition of that word. Even relative to the NHL, they were above average (and as you note, for a long time).

They both were, especially compared to other players considered top players or HOF candidates.

MAF watched 2 Cup finals from the bench, was a perennial sub .900 playoff goalie and one of the main reasons why the Penguins didn't win more cups.

He has only 1x AS-2, 1-4-5-7-8 Vezina finishes and only twice finished top 5 in sv% or gaa. He is elevated simply because he racked up wins playing behind Crosby.

Marleau is the definition of average. His career per 82 rate is only 55 points. He never was AS-1 or AS-2, he was never top 10 in points and only 1x was top 5 in goals and only 2x top 10. Worst of all he unashamedly played years beyond his expiration date just to break the games played record.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

They both were, especially compared to other players considered top players or HOF candidates.

“Mediocre” cannot be determined by comparing against Hall of Famers. You can’t say “oh, he was mediocre because he wasn’t Sidney Crosby”.

That’s making up an entirely new definition for a word which already has a good definition,