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How In The World Is Tim Thomas Not In The HHOF?

Thomas's career(9yrs) was only "short" because he started when he was already 28. Being undrafted and pulled from a beer league is pretty incredible as far as modern professional sports athletes go. How often does that even happen? He's got the story, the trophy case, and career numbers to be in when compared to others. And since we've established there's no hard lines that players need to meet, the only remaining factor is his career ended more or less in controversy. Barrasso's in a similar position. Should be a HOFer. Isn't for non-playing career reasons.
 
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kingsholygrail said:
Thomas's career(9yrs) was only "short" because he started when he was already 28. Being undrafted and pulled from a beer league is pretty incredible as far as modern professional sports athletes go. How often does that even happen? He's got the story, the trophy case, and career numbers to be in when compared to others. And since we've established there's no hard lines that players need to meet, the only remaining factor is his career ended more or less in controversy. Barrasso's in a similar position. Should be a HOFer. Isn't for non-playing career reasons.
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And then there's Theoren Fleury who is by most accounts HOF-worthy but carries the baggage of a dozen men, both by circumstance and by choice.

I guess my take on these cases is - it doesn't specifically impugn upon the integrity of the sport - people are allowed to have their own opinions / free speech is not a crime, so they should be able to be inducted... but maybe not while they're still active enough to use it as a platform for their views.

I'm somewhat of a "separate the artist from the art" type of mentality... to the extent where I know I've enjoyed the work of [insert athlete/comedian/artist, etc. here] before finding out they're dicks and/or borderline criminals or worse... but I can't take away the idea that I enjoyed their work prior, even if I don't follow them after.
 
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kingsholygrail said:
Thomas's career(9yrs) was only "short" because he started when he was already 28. Being undrafted and pulled from a beer league is pretty incredible as far as modern professional sports athletes go. How often does that even happen? He's got the story, the trophy case, and career numbers to be in when compared to others. And since we've established there's no hard lines that players need to meet, the only remaining factor is his career ended more or less in controversy. Barrasso's in a similar position. Should be a HOFer. Isn't for non-playing career reasons.
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Edmonton signed him as an unsigned free agent in 1998 (at the age of 24), and he went to Hamilton before (I believe) they cut him and he went to Finland.

And he was drafted (by Quebec) but wasn't signed.
 
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Filthy Dangles said:
The end of his career and how it unfolded really hurt his chances, I think.

When he played politics and refused to go to the White House with his teammates. He was still good for 1 more year after when Bos lost in the 1st round to WSH.

But after that he refused to play on the last year of his contract and was suspended, got traded to the Islanders and didn't report, remain suspended. He was not an NHL Starter after that with DAL/FLA and was pretty much done.

If he had just retired after 2011/2012, could be a different story.
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Let's be honest, this is the entire reason.
 
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Reverend Mayhem said:
His career was too short and he's too controversial a figure.

How isn't Mogilny in? It's an injustice to live in a world where Kevin Lowe makes it in before Mogs.
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Seems that when HF posters evaluate players, they place a huge onus on cup wins. That's why people can say "Malkin is better than Draisaitl AINEC because cups".

Lowe has 6 rings, Mogs has 1. Lowe made 8 ASG's, Mogs made 4.

Am I doing this right? 😉
 
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As I recall, he had a few testy exchanges with the media and was very to himself.

There have been cases where they ignore guys who were not necessarily darlings in front of the camera.
 
The Hanging Jowl said:
Let's be honest, this is the entire reason.
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I ask again, what's a comparable player who made the HHoF without having his career be cut short by injury or similar reason, who for all intents and purposes provided NHL quality play for 5 seasons?

Thomas became the starter for the Bruins in 06-07. His numbers weren't good. This was also the only season in his career he played 60+ games (which is important, especially when comparing him to other goalies in the HHoF).

The next season he provided adequate goaltending, per advanced stats and compared to backup Auld.

He then had his breakout season in 08-09, where he won his first Vezina.

The next season he lost the starter job to Tuukka Rask and allowed 5 goals in his only OG start.

The next season is his strongest case for the HHoF, when he won the Vezina and Conn Smythe.

The following season he was fine, but not as good as the .920 number seems these days. Boston was an incredibly strong team defensively, and the advanced stats again show him to be roughly replacement level. An okay starter, nothing more. His numbers were quite a bit worse than Rask's that season.

That's Thomas's NHL career. He retired, unretired, was among the worst starters in the league for a season, and retired again.

Unless you want to count the lockout year he played for Jokerit, nothing he did outside of the NHL makes a case for an HHoF nod. He was an utterly mediocre player for the U.S. national team as well.

His HHoF case consists of two seasons. In between those two seasons, he was demoted to backup.
 
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Reverend Mayhem said:
His career was too short and he's too controversial a figure.

How isn't Mogilny in? It's an injustice to live in a world where Kevin Lowe makes it in before Mogs.
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There's lots of guys in that really shouldn't be there, but that isn't a great arguments as to why someone else should be there. Mogilny, being admitted wouldn't bother me, based on some other inclusions, but it doesn't bother me that he's not in either as his resume isn't exactly screaming HOF worthy.
 
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Romang67 said:
I ask again, what's a comparable player who made the HHoF without having his career be cut short by injury or similar reason, who for all intents and purposes provided NHL quality play for 5 seasons?
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Ken Dryden? Perhaps not the best comparison as Dryden was undeniably a HOFer.
 
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...should Jose Theodore be in as well??... :facepalm:

howaboutno.gif
 
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Romang67 said:
I ask again, what's a comparable player who made the HHoF without having his career be cut short by injury or similar reason, who for all intents and purposes provided NHL quality play for 5 seasons?

Thomas became the starter for the Bruins in 06-07. His numbers weren't good. This was also the only season in his career he played 60+ games (which is important, especially when comparing him to other goalies in the HHoF).

The next season he provided adequate goaltending, per advanced stats and compared to backup Auld.

He then had his breakout season in 08-09, where he won his first Vezina.

The next season he lost the starter job to Tuukka Rask and allowed 5 goals in his only OG start.

The next season is his strongest case for the HHoF, when he won the Vezina and Conn Smythe.

The following season he was fine, but not as good as the .920 number seems these days. Boston was an incredibly strong team defensively, and the advanced stats again show him to be roughly replacement level. An okay starter, nothing more. His numbers were quite a bit worse than Rask's that season.

That's Thomas's NHL career. He retired, unretired, was among the worst starters in the league for a season, and retired again.

Unless you want to count the lockout year he played for Jokerit, nothing he did outside of the NHL makes a case for an HHoF nod. He was an utterly mediocre player for the U.S. national team as well.

His HHoF case consists of two seasons. In between those two seasons, he was demoted to backup.
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To provide some missing context/info:

He actually became the starter in the 05-06 season. When he was finally called up in Jan 2006, halfway through the season, he started 35 of 41 games after that. And he played excellent on that pretty bad Bruins team. Posted .917 sv% vs a league average of .901% (same as it currently is this year).

He was injured in 09-10 with a bad hip. Clearly affected his play and why he lost the starters job, to Rask (who was playing at a Vezina-level). After he got offseason surgery he returned to his excellent form. Also, not sure what you're referring to with allowed 5 goals in his only OG start in this season.
 
kingsholygrail said:
Thomas's career(9yrs) was only "short" because he started when he was already 28. Being undrafted and pulled from a beer league is pretty incredible as far as modern professional sports athletes go. How often does that even happen? He's got the story, the trophy case, and career numbers to be in when compared to others. And since we've established there's no hard lines that players need to meet, the only remaining factor is his career ended more or less in controversy. Barrasso's in a similar position. Should be a HOFer. Isn't for non-playing career reasons.
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Who's fault is it that it took him until 28 to make it?

What he did was amazing to make a career after bouncing around being ECHL, AHL/IHL and Europe, but it's kind of on him for not making it sooner and having a shorter NHL career that is holding back voters at the hockey hall of fame. He's body of exceptional play really is down to 200-250gp so it was never going to be easy for him to get in

To compare to a forward. Would a guy with 400gp of really good hockey and a few hundred more of average make it if he won some trophies?
 
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Bruins4Lifer said:
To provide some missing context/info:

He actually became the starter in the 05-06 season. When he was finally called up in Jan 2006, halfway through the season, he started 35 of 41 games after that. And he played excellent on that pretty bad Bruins team. Posted .917 sv% vs a league average of .901% (same as it currently is this year).

He was injured in 09-10 with a bad hip. Clearly affected his play and why he lost the starters job, to Rask (who was playing at a Vezina-level). After he got offseason surgery he returned to his excellent form. Also, not sure what you're referring to with allowed 5 goals in his only OG start in this season.
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to piggy back on this, that "lost his role year" in 2010 where he had bad hips he still had a .915

oh, and also the poster's "only 1 year on Jokerit", yeah not like he won the SM-Liiga Vezina and title in 98 or anything.
 
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joestevens29 said:
Who's fault is it that it took him until 28 to make it?

What he did was amazing to make a career after bouncing around being ECHL, AHL/IHL and Europe, but it's kind of on him for not making it sooner and having a shorter NHL career that is holding back voters at the hockey hall of fame. He's body of exceptional play really is down to 200-250gp so it was never going to be easy for him to get in

To compare to a forward. Would a guy with 400gp of really good hockey and a few hundred more of average make it if he won some trophies?
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How many multi-Vezina winning goalies aren't in the Hall?
 
Bruins4Lifer said:
To provide some missing context/info:

He actually became the starter in the 05-06 season. When he was finally called up in Jan 2006, halfway through the season, he started 35 of 41 games after that. And he played excellent on that pretty bad Bruins team. Posted .917 sv% vs a league average of .901% (same as it currently is this year).

He was injured in 09-10 with a bad hip. Clearly affected his play and why he lost the starters job, to Rask (who was playing at a Vezina-level). After he got offseason surgery he returned to his excellent form. Also, not sure what you're referring to with allowed 5 goals in his only OG start in this season.
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An extra half season of starter play, but not exceptional play, does very little to support his claim to a spot in the Hall. His .917 were just above the numbers of Hannu Toivunen, a mediocre backup.

He returned to his excellent form for one season after the surgery. Then he had a mediocre season following that, and was done. Which is the entire issue with any claim that he deserves to be in the HHoF. It spans three seasons, one of which was bad.

Yeah, the OG thing is wrong. It's either a relief appearance or a data scraping issue. Nevertheless, his accomplishments in international play are essentially nothing.

BigBadBruins7708 said:
to piggy back on this, that "lost his role year" in 2010 where he had bad hips he still had a .915

oh, and also the poster's "only 1 year on Jokerit", yeah not like he won the SM-Liiga Vezina and title in 98 or anything.
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He had a .915 on the 2010 Boston Bruins. Rask was putting up a .931 for the same team. His .915 was, per evolving-hockey, really bad.

Okay, he had two great seasons goaltending in Finland. Do you think that supports his case for the HHoF?
 
Reverend Mayhem said:
His career was too short and he's too controversial a figure.

How isn't Mogilny in? It's an injustice to live in a world where Kevin Lowe makes it in before Mogs.
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Just because Kevin Lowe is in doesn't mean that the Hall needs to put in an inconsistent winger who also doesn't have a very good playoff resume (for a HHOFer).

Tim Thomas has the icing on the cake for a HHOFer but completely lacks the cake portion and also isn't a nice guy like MAF so that matters in totality.
 
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