How good was Cam Neely?

[vadim sharifijanov]

this is all getting weirdly... ideological?

 

[Dingo]

do you mean this stylistically? like, did janney make his living along the boards and in the corners like the sedins did?

i honestly don’t remember him on the cycle, and kind of remember him more as an open ice guy. would love to hear more about his style from someone who followed him closely.



i did a deep dive on janney’s playoff scoring semi-recently. i’m on my ohone so can’t cross-check neely’s production against it, but what we know about round three in 1991 is suggestive.

i wrote you a long script and my ipad zapped out on me.
short answer is im not qualified to comment on his style, as i was too young then.
ill try again once im done being pissed off!

 

[Dingo]

ya i figured it had to be the one whose name is rat and the one who looks like one

but i cheered for cooke, ruutu, and burrows so i should talk...

ruutu could fight at least!

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ya, regular season perhaps, but Janney out-pointed Neely in the 89 playoffs by 4 points. He out-pointed Neely in the 91 playoffs by 2 points (playing one less game). In the 88 playoffs Neely was 1 point ahead (of Janney), being two years older too. The only instance in the playoffs where Neely was ahead by a substantial margin happened in 1990 when he was 6 points ahead of Janney, but with three more games played (so again, pretty small gap PPG wise). So their playoffs stats were very similar. Neely didn't really separate himself from Janney points wise in the playoffs while they played together in Boston.

Janney and Neely together for the Bruins in the playoffs:

Janney: 69 games 17-56-73 -1

Neely: 73 games 44-30-74 +3

Its pretty difficult to separate yourself from your linemate in total points. But that's a big difference in goals scored and there are no secondary goals.

Anyone that watched the Bruins at that time knows which guy was carrying the offense.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Oh come its a bit tounge in cheek but the way his flailing his arms about.



I've always thought its perplexing for fans of a team with two of the biggest rats in history saying "F*** Ulf Samuelsson". I guess he wasnt a bruin...

Pretty sure there weren't any teams back in the 1980s and 90s that didn't employ any rats at one time or another.

 

[Stephen]

He killed my Habs for what feels like every playoffs.

The guy was a gamer. Pains me to admit (being a Montreal fan and all) but he might be the last true version of a powerforward winger we seen.

There was an entire generation of 90s power forwards that carried on the torch after Neely.

 

[67 others]

Nah. Entering the DPE in his 30s his scoring was going down anyway. His career arch was the result of the way he played, and even if he had the luck of avoiding some of the injuries there weren't 300 more goals in him.

I dunno about that. His career arc was completely altered by that Ulf Samuelsson knee on knee. Samuelsson was rather famous for intentionally doing that and he did it to Neely TWICE in that game. The one caught on Camera is not the one where Samuelsson drilled it into the boards from behind in the same series. Neely had been scoring like a goal a game that series prior to that hit and the bruins were up 2-0 in the series.


Neely missed the 1992-93 year almost entirely and it was one of the highest scoring years for forwards of all time. He came back the next year and scored 50 goals in 44 games. I daresay without time missed for that injury, the addition of Adam Oates, he probably has some of the best years of his career from 1992-93 to 1996.

 

[67 others]

He was the reason that the term " power forward " started in the NHL.

Ahhh, the days before hitting from behind was a major and game misconduct.

Defensemen used to just cough the puck up to any direction and dive out of the way when Neely was forechecking. if they didn't, it ended a bit badly for them usually.

 

[BobbyAwe]

I don't think one should blame Neely too much for his production in Vancouver, he was still really young there and Vancouver probably wasn't the most ideal organization at the time for his development. That said, regressing in his 3rd year there and getting traded off the team still probably isn't the greatest look.



Bossy was once 2nd league scoring only behind Gretzky and had 83 assists that year, 4th most assists in the league behind Gretzky (120) as well as Stastny (93) and Savard (87). Bossy routinely outscored teammate Bryan Trottier, Neely on the other hand was often outscored by teammate Craig Janney. And Ray Bourque.

Neely is closer to Tim Kerr than he is Mike Bossy. That said, I would take Neely instead of Kerr pretty easily because Neely was just a better skater/more dynamic. But I think Kerr actually led the Flyers in scoring thrice, two times in front of a healthy Propp.



Wouldn't it have been better if one of those highlight reel videos included say some nice playmaking or some nice defensive plays?

Fighting? Seriously? Are there any actual tangible evidence that Neely's fighting skills actually helped his team win any more games?

If I was a Bruins fan and was watching the 1988 or 1990 SCFs I would have loved it if adored it if Neely dropped the gloves and just pummeled Mark Messier right on the nose. Other than that, no.

Neely's fighting was so important to his team's success that the coach/management/whatever specifically told him to do it less to be a more effective player.

Who would you rather have on your team, a great offensive player who doesn't hit or fight and needs to be PROTECTED, or a great offensive player who not only doesn't need to be protected, but makes the other team keep their heads up?

 

[redgrant]

Remember as a boy mark messier rendering him absolutely useless in the 88 playoffs.

Terry oreilly who was Boston's coach was livid that each time he sent Neely out messier came over the bench. There was a hilarious clip of oreilly holding Neely about to send him out and Sather smiling at him holding on to messier about to send him out.

Neely then sat down and Sather told messier to sit down.

Was able to be easily shut down and was a total non factor when Boston needed him the most.

If anyone has the clip from the 88 finals I'm referring to with Sather smiling and holding messier please share it. I can't find it on YouTube.

 

[BobbyAwe]

I dunno about that. His career arc was completely altered by that Ulf Samuelsson knee on knee. Samuelsson was rather famous for intentionally doing that and he did it to Neely TWICE in that game. The one caught on Camera is not the one where Samuelsson drilled it into the boards from behind in the same series. Neely had been scoring like a goal a game that series prior to that hit and the bruins were up 2-0 in the series.


Neely missed the 1992-93 year almost entirely and it was one of the highest scoring years for forwards of all time. He came back the next year and scored 50 goals in 44 games. I daresay without time missed for that injury, the addition of Adam Oates, he probably has some of the best years of his career from 1992-93 to 1996.

He played only 9 games in 91-92, and had 9 goals. Played only 13 games in 92-93 and had 11 goals. His last 2 years he had 56 goals in 91 total games, but he was not 100% anymore. Those 4 seasons would probably have ALL been 50-60 goal years had he been healthy.

Then you have to figure, he was only 30 years old in that last year, so should have had a few more chances seasons to hit 50 or better. I'd guess at least 250 more goals in his career if not for the injuries.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Remember as a boy mark messier rendering him absolutely useless in the 88 playoffs.

Terry oreilly who was Boston's coach was livid that each time he sent Neely out messier came over the bench. There was a hilarious clip of oreilly holding Neely about to send him out and Sather smiling at him holding on to messier about to send him out.

Neely then sat down and Sather told messier to sit down.

Was able to be easily shut down and was a total non factor when Boston needed him the most.

If anyone has the clip from the 88 finals I'm referring to with Sather smiling and holding messier please share it. I can't find it on YouTube.

this was a little before my time, can you say more? like, was messier just a smothering defensive presence on neely or was it more physically goading him into confrontations and getting his mind away from the game?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

could be goaded into playing a stupid game by the pests of the league.

and on this note, some notable shadow jobs where neely was shutdown —

1990 finals, zero goals, four assists in five games, scoreless in the final two

Tikkanen casts menacing shadow

Craig Janney finally found someplace to hide from Esa Tikkanen early Wednesday morning — a hospital bed. Still, the way the Edmonton Oiler wing shadowed the Boston Bruin center throughout Game 1 of the Stanley Cup finals Tuesday, Janney could almost imagine Tikkanen showing up as a volunteer nurse.

Janney was sent to Massachusetts General Hospital, suffering from dehydration, after playing in the longest game in the finals, a 115-minute 13-second, three-overtime marathon won by Edmonton 3-2.

His problems, though, began before he arrived at Boston Garden. Already hit with stomach flu, he had a 100-degree fever when he stepped onto the ice in the hot, humid arena.

"With the length of the game, I just kept losing fluids," he said. "Between the second and third overtime, my whole body cramped up and I just couldn't go on. I didn't have anything left. I've never been in such pain. I just wanted to survive."

He did, thanks to the overnight hospital stay and intravenous fluid.

Janney was back on the ice to practice Thursday and expects to play tonight in Game 2 at the Garden.

So much for the pain in his stomach. The pain in the neck won't be so easy to shake.

Tikkanen is just doing what he does best, what he did to Wayne Gretzky in the second-round series against the Los Angeles Kings and Denis Savard in the third round against the Chicago Blackhawks. Tikkanen is assigned to the key man in the opposing offense and told to disrupt him and, thus, the opposing team's game plan.

In the case of the Bruins, that would be Janney, the center who often fed Cam Neely on his way to a team-high 55 goals.

With Tikkanen on the job Tuesday, it was left to defenseman Ray Bourque to score both Boston goals.

"I've never had anything like that," Janney said. "It just seemed wherever I turned, (Tikkanen) was just right in my face the whole game. It was hard to breathe, he was so close to me. I didn't really touch the puck all night."

At one point, in desperation, Janney faked as if he were coming off.

"I wanted to see if it would work," he said. "I went toward the bench and screamed, "Change! Change!' He looked to his bench. Then, I cut away and was open for a second, but nobody saw me.

"The next time, he waited until I crossed the boards. He said, "That's not going to work this time, son."'​

1995 against new jersey, two goals, zero assists in five games

LEMIEUX GIVES BRUINS A BAD TIME

Cam Neely didn't play last year in the playoff loss to New Jersey because of injuries. There is some question whether he actually played Sunday, either.

The Devils' Claude Lemieux drew the assignment to shadow, prod, poke and agitate the Bruins' top gun in this NHL playoff opening series. Maybe Neely should have been shadowing Lemieux instead.

Lemieux scored two goals and totally frustrated Neely as the Devils overwhelmed the Bruins 5-0before 14,448 disgruntled fans at Boston Garden. If it is any consolation to Neely, his Bruins teammates were equally inept.

[...]

After some nasty past altercations, there had been much pre-series hype about Lemieux vs. Neely. In Beantown, this is something along the lines of Ulf Samuelsson vs. Neely or Bill Laimbeer vs. the Celtics.

Neely grew testy as soon as the subject was brought up.

"What about Chapter 1 of the Neely- Lemieux saga? How do you think it went today?" a TV reporter asked.

"How do you think it went?" Neely asked sharply.

"Pretty poorly," the reporter answered. "Pretty obvious. Did you watch the game?"

Neely said. "He got two goals. I didn't play as well as I could. I definitely can play better. It wasn't pretty out there."

[...]

With Bobby Carpenter out with a thigh injury, the Devils fretted that Broten would lose some of his offensive flair centering MacLean and Lemieux against Neely. They shouldn't have worried. Broten had a pair of assists. That line, plus defensemen Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermayer, snuffed Boston.

"Shadowing is not just a 1-on-1 job," Lemieux said. "The rest of your teammates have to be alert. I knew if I didn't get a goal in this whole series it wouldn't matter if I did a good [checking] job."​

and another one about claude lemieux

'The most hated man in hockey'

[...]

At another time, he so riled Cam Neely that the Boston Bruins right wing finally threw down his gloves and went after Lemieux, only to have Lemieux cower on the ice, inspiring Neely to call him a "gutless puke."

"You know, you have to live with the reputation that you have," Lemieux said. "There is always this thing that players feel you shouldn't play as physical against their best players, but when you're assigned a role to shadow someone, whether it is Neely or [Jaromir] Jagr, if I'm going to let them do whatever they want, obviously it is going to be a long night for me. So . . . if you're going to be on top of the other team's best player, you're not going to be well-liked."

​

this is the altercation, three minutes into a regular season game that march (not sure what the deal was there, beyond getting angry about being sticked, because boston swept the regular season series against NJ. neely and claude hadn't seen much of each other since meeting in the playoffs four times in a row in the late 80s, to my knowledge.)

​

otoh, both tikkanen and claude lemieux held neely in the highest regard.

Toughest Competitor: "Claude Lemieux and Cam Neely." (from a tikkanen profile/questionnaire in SI)​

and

"When I first started, I was more of a role player. As I got older, I wanted to be more complete. What I’ve tried to do is take a bit of one player, like a Cam Neely, and a bit of another, like a Mark Messier." (claude lemieux in a 2001 interview with stan fischler)​

 

[redgrant]

this was a little before my time, can you say more? like, was messier just a smothering defensive presence on neely or was it more physically goading him into confrontations and getting his mind away from the game?

I think it was more of an irritant. There were shadows where they would just smother a player every second. Gretzky and Lemieux dealt with it constantly. Would say it takes a toll on the mind more than the body.

 

[Big Phil]

I often wonder what was it that Mike Keenan didn't like about him in the 1987 Canada Cup. He got cut from that team. Not that he was a shoo-in to make it or anything, and you can argue he hadn't quite hit his stride yet, which he hadn't, but I think he'd have thumped the Soviets pretty good on a mucking/checking line. He was injured in 1991 and was retired by the next tournament so it is too bad we never saw Neely in Team Canada colours.

 

[Albatros]

He played only 9 games in 91-92, and had 9 goals. Played only 13 games in 92-93 and had 11 goals. His last 2 years he had 56 goals in 91 total games, but he was not 100% anymore. Those 4 seasons would probably have ALL been 50-60 goal years had he been healthy.

Then you have to figure, he was only 30 years old in that last year, so should have had a few more chances seasons to hit 50 or better. I'd guess at least 250 more goals in his career if not for the injuries.

This is just throwing big numbers without any context. First of all, the 1994/95 season was shortened by a lockout, he didn't miss any significant number of games. Secondly, by the late 1990s scoring more than 50 would have made him the top scorer in league. Selänne won the inaugural Richard with 47 goals.

For some Neely seems to have become some kind of a mythological superhero that could have accomplished anything if not for the villain Ulf Samuelsson.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Remember as a boy mark messier rendering him absolutely useless in the 88 playoffs.

Terry oreilly who was Boston's coach was livid that each time he sent Neely out messier came over the bench. There was a hilarious clip of oreilly holding Neely about to send him out and Sather smiling at him holding on to messier about to send him out.

Neely then sat down and Sather told messier to sit down.

Was able to be easily shut down and was a total non factor when Boston needed him the most.

If anyone has the clip from the 88 finals I'm referring to with Sather smiling and holding messier please share it. I can't find it on YouTube.

1988 finals:

Messier 5 games 1 goal 2 assists

Neely 5 games 2 goals 1 assist

Messier was 27 at the time, Neely was 22. Neely had never played past the first round of the playoffs before that. Messier was about to win his fourth Cup.

I guess it would be comparable to 22 year old Wayne Gretzky getting shutdown in the 1983 finals by Brian Trottier. Or a 22 year old Mark Messier being rendered absolutely useless in the same finals.

 

[redgrant]

1988 finals:

Messier 5 games 1 goal 2 assists

Neely 5 games 2 goals 1 assist

Messier was 27 at the time, Neely was 22. Neely had never played past the first round of the playoffs before that. Messier was about to win his fourth Cup.

I guess it would be comparable to 22 year old Wayne Gretzky getting shutdown in the 1983 finals by Brian Trottier. Or a 22 year old Mark Messier being rendered absolutely useless in the same finals.

Yes I'd agree with that. Gretzky was totally shut down until they eventually defeated the islanders.

Regarding Neely I remember the frustration you saw in oreilly frustrated that Sather was having messier out on him each time.

 

[sr edler]

and on this note, some notable shadow jobs where neely was shutdown —

1990 finals, zero goals, four assists in five games, scoreless in the final two

Tikkanen casts menacing shadow

Craig Janney finally found someplace to hide from Esa Tikkanen early Wednesday morning — a hospital bed. Still, the way the Edmonton Oiler wing shadowed the Boston Bruin center throughout Game 1 of the Stanley Cup finals Tuesday, Janney could almost imagine Tikkanen showing up as a volunteer nurse.

Janney was sent to Massachusetts General Hospital, suffering from dehydration, after playing in the longest game in the finals, a 115-minute 13-second, three-overtime marathon won by Edmonton 3-2.

His problems, though, began before he arrived at Boston Garden. Already hit with stomach flu, he had a 100-degree fever when he stepped onto the ice in the hot, humid arena.

"With the length of the game, I just kept losing fluids," he said. "Between the second and third overtime, my whole body cramped up and I just couldn't go on. I didn't have anything left. I've never been in such pain. I just wanted to survive."

He did, thanks to the overnight hospital stay and intravenous fluid.

Janney was back on the ice to practice Thursday and expects to play tonight in Game 2 at the Garden.

So much for the pain in his stomach. The pain in the neck won't be so easy to shake.

Tikkanen is just doing what he does best, what he did to Wayne Gretzky in the second-round series against the Los Angeles Kings and Denis Savard in the third round against the Chicago Blackhawks. Tikkanen is assigned to the key man in the opposing offense and told to disrupt him and, thus, the opposing team's game plan.

In the case of the Bruins, that would be Janney, the center who often fed Cam Neely on his way to a team-high 55 goals.

With Tikkanen on the job Tuesday, it was left to defenseman Ray Bourque to score both Boston goals.

"I've never had anything like that," Janney said. "It just seemed wherever I turned, (Tikkanen) was just right in my face the whole game. It was hard to breathe, he was so close to me. I didn't really touch the puck all night."

At one point, in desperation, Janney faked as if he were coming off.

"I wanted to see if it would work," he said. "I went toward the bench and screamed, "Change! Change!' He looked to his bench. Then, I cut away and was open for a second, but nobody saw me.

"The next time, he waited until I crossed the boards. He said, "That's not going to work this time, son."'​

1995 against new jersey, two goals, zero assists in five games

LEMIEUX GIVES BRUINS A BAD TIME

Cam Neely didn't play last year in the playoff loss to New Jersey because of injuries. There is some question whether he actually played Sunday, either.

The Devils' Claude Lemieux drew the assignment to shadow, prod, poke and agitate the Bruins' top gun in this NHL playoff opening series. Maybe Neely should have been shadowing Lemieux instead.

Lemieux scored two goals and totally frustrated Neely as the Devils overwhelmed the Bruins 5-0before 14,448 disgruntled fans at Boston Garden. If it is any consolation to Neely, his Bruins teammates were equally inept.

[...]

After some nasty past altercations, there had been much pre-series hype about Lemieux vs. Neely. In Beantown, this is something along the lines of Ulf Samuelsson vs. Neely or Bill Laimbeer vs. the Celtics.

Neely grew testy as soon as the subject was brought up.

"What about Chapter 1 of the Neely- Lemieux saga? How do you think it went today?" a TV reporter asked.

"How do you think it went?" Neely asked sharply.

"Pretty poorly," the reporter answered. "Pretty obvious. Did you watch the game?"

Neely said. "He got two goals. I didn't play as well as I could. I definitely can play better. It wasn't pretty out there."

[...]

With Bobby Carpenter out with a thigh injury, the Devils fretted that Broten would lose some of his offensive flair centering MacLean and Lemieux against Neely. They shouldn't have worried. Broten had a pair of assists. That line, plus defensemen Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermayer, snuffed Boston.

"Shadowing is not just a 1-on-1 job," Lemieux said. "The rest of your teammates have to be alert. I knew if I didn't get a goal in this whole series it wouldn't matter if I did a good [checking] job."​

and another one about claude lemieux

'The most hated man in hockey'

[...]

At another time, he so riled Cam Neely that the Boston Bruins right wing finally threw down his gloves and went after Lemieux, only to have Lemieux cower on the ice, inspiring Neely to call him a "gutless puke."

"You know, you have to live with the reputation that you have," Lemieux said. "There is always this thing that players feel you shouldn't play as physical against their best players, but when you're assigned a role to shadow someone, whether it is Neely or [Jaromir] Jagr, if I'm going to let them do whatever they want, obviously it is going to be a long night for me. So . . . if you're going to be on top of the other team's best player, you're not going to be well-liked."

​

this is the altercation, three minutes into a regular season game that march (not sure what the deal was there, beyond getting angry about being sticked, because boston swept the regular season series against NJ. neely and claude hadn't seen much of each other since meeting in the playoffs four times in a row in the late 80s, to my knowledge.)

​

otoh, both tikkanen and claude lemieux held neely in the highest regard.

Toughest Competitor: "Claude Lemieux and Cam Neely." (from a tikkanen profile/questionnaire in SI)​

and

"When I first started, I was more of a role player. As I got older, I wanted to be more complete. What I’ve tried to do is take a bit of one player, like a Cam Neely, and a bit of another, like a Mark Messier." (claude lemieux in a 2001 interview with stan fischler)​

Interestingly enough the 1990 SCFs Tikkanen shadow job was on Janney not Neely, according to above report, I didn't know that. Now I'm not trying to insinuate anything here, and in 1990 I was 9 years old living in a completely different time zone and obviously slept really hard when these games played out, but why would the Oils put a shadow job on Janney if it was so obvious that it was Neely who was driving the bus?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I often wonder what was it that Mike Keenan didn't like about him in the 1987 Canada Cup. He got cut from that team. Not that he was a shoo-in to make it or anything, and you can argue he hadn't quite hit his stride yet, which he hadn't, but I think he'd have thumped the Soviets pretty good on a mucking/checking line. He was injured in 1991 and was retired by the next tournament so it is too bad we never saw Neely in Team Canada colours.

i'm guessing that if it's the choice between 1987 neely and 1987 tocchet, keenan was going to go with his boy.

not to say that it wasn't the right choice, however. tocchet did a lot of little things on the defensive end that neely didn't do at tocchet's level.

1988 finals:

Messier 5 games 1 goal 2 assists

Neely 5 games 2 goals 1 assist

Messier was 27 at the time, Neely was 22. Neely had never played past the first round of the playoffs before that. Messier was about to win his fourth Cup.

I guess it would be comparable to 22 year old Wayne Gretzky getting shutdown in the 1983 finals by Brian Trottier. Or a 22 year old Mark Messier being rendered absolutely useless in the same finals.

this makes a lot of sense to me. maybe the big difference in '88, beyond gretzky of course, was depth. the oilers could afford to burn messier in shutdown role because there was tik/gretzky/kurri on the other line. boston's other top six line was ken linseman between keith crowder and bob sweeney. i have all the time in the world for kenny the rat but...

also important to note that neely was playing with two guys who were literally not even rookies yet, craig janney and bob joyce. both guys joined the bruins after the calgary olympics, and had 15 games of NHL experience entering the playoffs.

that said, that boston team had a killer third line. kasper between young burridge and old middleton, plus a little bit of willie plett.

Interestingly enough the 1990 SCFs Tikkanen shadow job was on Janney not Neely, according to above report, I didn't know that. Now I'm not trying to insinuate anything here, and in 1990 I was 9 years old living in a completely different time zone and obviously slept really hard when these games played out, but why would the Oils put a shadow job on Janney if it was so obvious that it was Neely who was driving the bus?

if i had to guess, i'd say it's because janney was the puck carrier. like if i'm muckler, i'm thinking, what's the best way to keep the puck away from neely in the scoring areas, shadowing him or shadowing the skinny twerp who gets him the puck?

i think cam neely was a lot of things, but he wasn't the kind of all-round scoring threat that, say, iginla was. he could retrieve the puck as good as anyone, and he could cycle it back and forth almost unstoppably, but if you cut off his other guy he can't do everything all by himself the way playoff forsberg would take it upon himself to do everything if you cut off his linemates. but i don't think that means janney was driving the bus.

actually, by any definition, bourque was driving the bus.

 

[The Panther]

Neely was pretty great here:

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think it was more of an irritant. There were shadows where they would just smother a player every second. Gretzky and Lemieux dealt with it constantly. Would say it takes a toll on the mind more than the body.

No they didn't.