How good was Cam Neely?

[Hobnobs]

True.

I also think it wasn't sacrificing other parts of his play as much as he had no other choice. Post injuries he had to protect himself to stay on the ice. His body couldn't play that style anymore so he had to play a far less physical game just to survive. Which led to him focusing solely on scoring goals.

No I meant if he wasn't injured then would've had to sacrifice all other aspects to replicate that.

so neely already scored 55 goals in 61 games, pre-samuelsson. and that's with janney, not oates.

in a way that's a cherry-picked sample, because i'm cutting off his first two months of the season, where he "only" scored 11 goals, 23 points in 23 games, and boston as a whole probably had a bit of a stanley cup finals hangover (look at bourque's and janney's stats from december 9 on—they are bonkers). but i feel like something clicked in the five games he sat out at the end of november/beginning of december 1990, when he was suspended for whacking randy ladouceur over the head with his stick. and if we look at his partials for the rest of his career, post-samuelsson, he basically is just keeping up that exact same goal scoring pace.

I have no idea what stats you are combining here so it's impossible for me to respond.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

No I meant if he wasn't injured then would've had to sacrifice all other aspects to replicate that.

I question if he would have to or not.

With Janney pre injury he put up 0.72 and 0.74 GPG in consecutive seasons with 215 PIM in those 2 seasons.

Is making the jump to 1.00 GPG with Oates and completely healthy really that big of an extrapolation? Hell, healthy prime Neely with prime Oates I'd say 1.00 GPG sounds like a relatively easy goal to reach. Brett Hull jumped from 0.59 GPG to 0.90 and 1.10 GPG when Oates got to St Louis. The difference between Janney and Oates is certainly more than enough for Neely to jump to 1.00 GPG without having to sacrifice the physical parts of his game.

He didn't sacrifice those aspects of his game to score more goals, he did it to stay on the ice because of his knees. If he's healthy, he doesn't have to limit his physical play

 

[BruinDust]

How good was Neely?

Well I'd argue he was good enough to make the Hall despite missing basically the prime of his career.

In the 1991 playoffs, he was injured by Ulf in Game 3 of the Wales Final. Prior to Game 3 he had 14 goals in 15 playoff games. Scored 2 more in the 4 games he played injured for a total of 16 goals over 3 rounds. Keep in mind the all-time record for playoff goals is 19. Had he not been injured and the Bruins had got past Pittsburgh (they won Games 3-6), he would of set a new record I think. That was his age 25 season.

After his injury. from 1991-92 until 1993-94 (his age 26-27-28 seasons) he only played 75 NHL games. He scored 74 NHL goals.

From his Age 24 season (1989-90) until his age 28 season (1993-94) he played 260 NHL games. He scored 208 goals, prorated out that is a 65 goal/82 game average over the course of his 5 prime age seasons (0.8 GPG).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

No I meant if he wasn't injured then would've had to sacrifice all other aspects to replicate that.

i'm suggesting that he showed that when healthy, he could do both and still scoring 9+ goals per 10 games.

I have no idea what stats you are combining here so it's impossible for me to respond.

look at his scoring between dec 9, 1990 up to game 2 of the pittburgh series. that's when he comes back from his 5 game suspension up to when samuelsson destroyed his knee. that's a consecutive sample of 61 games where he scored a bonkers amount of goals, was a devastating forechecker and all-round physical force, and didn't have adam oates.

and then look at how every single time he is in the lineup in the next four seasons, regular season or playoffs, with or without oates, he repeats that scoring pace.

 

[Big Phil]

A healthy Neely makes a difference. 50 goals in 49 games in 1994 was impressive. I don't care if Jesus is passing you the puck, that's a lot of mustard. Adam Oates was a pretty good consolation for a centre though to be hitting you with passes. Just to see what he'd have done in a full season would have been interesting. 70 goals, I'd guess. 75 maybe. Even with his low assists that year, we are talking about an MVP year possibly. He finished 9th as it was that year. This was with Norris winning Bourque and Oates. Bourque finished ahead of him in voting, but I think Neely makes a push against Fedorov with a full season for the Hart. Normally it is Bourque who gobbles up the Hart votes on Boston for obvious reasons - even in Neely's other big years - but something about 1994 would have turned heads in a full season.

 

[Dingo]

Great powerforward.
Side note - Ulf didnt do shit to cause that injury.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

A healthy Neely makes a difference. 50 goals in 49 games in 1994 was impressive. I don't care if Jesus is passing you the puck, that's a lot of mustard. Adam Oates was a pretty good consolation for a centre though to be hitting you with passes. Just to see what he'd have done in a full season would have been interesting. 70 goals, I'd guess. 75 maybe. Even with his low assists that year, we are talking about an MVP year possibly. He finished 9th as it was that year. This was with Norris winning Bourque and Oates. Bourque finished ahead of him in voting, but I think Neely makes a push against Fedorov with a full season for the Hart. Normally it is Bourque who gobbles up the Hart votes on Boston for obvious reasons - even in Neely's other big years - but something about 1994 would have turned heads in a full season.

I do love my Bruins, but nobody was beating out Fedorov that season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Great powerforward.
Side note - Ulf didnt do shit to cause that injury.

Yeah, it wasn't just Ulf's hit.

"On May 3, 1991, during Game 3 of the 1991 Prince of Wales Conference Finals, Neely was checked by Ulf Samuelsson, and injured on the play, and was hit again to the knee in game 6. Compounding the situation was the fact that Neely developed myositis ossificans in the injured area. The injury kept Neely out of all but 22 games of the next two seasons, and Neely would only play a total of 162 NHL games for the remainder of his career after the hit because of knee trouble.[3]
In the 1993–94 season, Neely scored his 50th goal in his 44th game; only Wayne Gretzky has scored 50 goals in fewer games. This milestone is unofficial as the 50 goals must be scored in the first 50 games the team plays, counting from the start of the season. Other players have also "unofficially" reached this milestone, such as Alexander Mogilny, Jari Kurri, and Bobby Hull. He was regularly listed as a healthy scratch in alternate games in order to rest his ailing knee, but it would be a degenerative hip condition that forced Neely to retire after the 1995–96 season at the age of 31."

 

[Hobnobs]

Yeah, it wasn't just Ulf's hit.

"On May 3, 1991, during Game 3 of the 1991 Prince of Wales Conference Finals, Neely was checked by Ulf Samuelsson, and injured on the play, and was hit again to the knee in game 6. Compounding the situation was the fact that Neely developed myositis ossificans in the injured area. The injury kept Neely out of all but 22 games of the next two seasons, and Neely would only play a total of 162 NHL games for the remainder of his career after the hit because of knee trouble.[3]
In the 1993–94 season, Neely scored his 50th goal in his 44th game; only Wayne Gretzky has scored 50 goals in fewer games. This milestone is unofficial as the 50 goals must be scored in the first 50 games the team plays, counting from the start of the season. Other players have also "unofficially" reached this milestone, such as Alexander Mogilny, Jari Kurri, and Bobby Hull. He was regularly listed as a healthy scratch in alternate games in order to rest his ailing knee, but it would be a degenerative hip condition that forced Neely to retire after the 1995–96 season at the age of 31."

And Ulf hit wasnt meant as a knee on knee hit either. He made himself as big as possible and Neely tried to get out the way and turned right into Samuelssons leg. Ulf wasnt even paying attention to him but was looking backwards at the puck.

 

[Spirit of 67]

How good was Cam Neely? And how good could he have been without the injuries?

Awesome.
And Awesomer.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

And Ulf hit wasnt meant as a knee on knee hit either. He made himself as big as possible and Neely tried to get out the way and turned right into Samuelssons leg. Ulf wasnt even paying attention to him but was looking backwards at the puck.

Ulf never did anything by accident.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

can any bruins fans who are old enough to have followed the team back the tell me more about the '91 season?

i'm trying to reconstruct this from the evidence:

so to start the 1990-'91 season, the bruins must have been exhausted. they'd just gone to two finals and won a presidents trophy in the last three years. milbury was entering what turned out to be his final year as coach, at the end of which which he would move over to management, citing emotional burnout.

after steamrolling through their first four games (against philly, quebec twice, and winnipeg—all non-playoff teams), they went 0-4-1 to finish out their early season cross-continent road trip. and they got DESTROYED in those games. after tying minnesota, they lost 7-1, 3-1, 8-1, and 8-1 again to LA, vancouver, and the alberta teams. i have to think that game against edmonton, where edmonton scored all eight goals in the first 40 to chase lemelin before easing up in the third period, with messier not even in the lineup, had to be a low point. then the very next day they go to calgary and moog gets chased in the first period, same 8-1 final score.

here's somethign i pulled from the boston globe —

WILMINGTON, Mass. - The shock has worn off and reality has set in. After going winless in five straight games on their Western road trip, of which the final two were 8-1 thrashings by Edmonton and Calgary, Boston Bruins returned home and decided it was time to go back to basics. Captain Raymond Bourque held a "players only" meeting on the ice Monday at Ristuccia Center before coach Mike Milbury put his team through training camp-style drills. As the team raced up and down the ice vigorously working on three-on-ones, two-on-ones and three-on-twos, president/general manager Harry Sinden was sitting in the stands with a portable [story cuts off there]​

then they pull it together, seemingly led by neely, who goes on a tear. 5 goals, 12 points in the next 7, as the team goes 5-1-2 (neely missed one game in there, a tie against buffalo). next highest scoring bruin over those 8 games was carpenter and christian with 6 points (but impressively all six of carpenter's points were goals).

then neely cools off, going scoreless in 4 of the next 6, culminating in a back-to-back divisional matchup against hartford, who were riding a five game winning streak and had pushed boston to seven in the first round the previous year. boston's last six games going into that hartford game was 3-2-1 (two of those wins were against toronto and quebec, literally the league's two worst teams).

so then this happened (via the LA times) —

MONTREAL —
Boston Bruins’ right wing Cam Neely was suspended for five games today by the NHL for attempting to injure defenseman Randy Ladouceur of the Hartford Whalers.

Neely, who scored 55 goals last season, was given a match penalty after hitting Ladouceur with his stick on Nov. 23. Neely, 25, is the sixth player suspended this season for on-ice violence.

“It is clear that after jostling with the Hartford player, Neely swung his stick in a deliberate and severe manner,” NHL Executive Vice President Brian O’Neill said. “It must be pointed out that the reaction to aggressiveness by an opponent in this manner cannot be tolerated.”

The suspension will take effect Dec. 4 unless the Bruins decide to waive the appeal period.​

here's a more lively description from the hartford courant, albeit looking back at it retrospectively from the 1993 season (the article alludes to hartford riding an eleven game regular season winless streak against boston, starting from the game after neely's attack on ladouceur) —

Remember the zany 4-3 Whalers victory that Friday afternoon after Thanksgiving three years ago? Only three or four current Whalers were even in the building. Bruins right wing Cam Neely, who sat out Sunday with his shaky knee, clubbed Randy Ladouceur over the head and ended up getting a five-game suspension. Former Bruins coach Mike Milbury started to climb the glass and former Whalers coach Rick Ley took off his glasses and beckoned him to come over for a fight.

The Whalers, trailing 3-0, ended up winning with four successive goals. Ron Francis got the winner. It was a classic.​

here's another retrospective description from the courant, this time from 1996, the second last whalers season (i guess hartford thought of that game as a flashpoint in their franchise history?) —

The last legitimate game the Whalers won in Boston was Nov. 23, 1990. The Bruins blew a 3-0 third-period lead that afternoon as the Whalers scored four power-play goals. A pivotal moment occurred when Neely, frustrated and snorting like a bull, clubbed defenseman Randy Ladouceur over the head. Neely got a five- game suspension. The Whalers got a victory. And it was the last legitimate victory here for 2,200 days -- until Thursday night.

"I do remember getting hit. It was the only time in my career I took a lightning bolt like that over the head," said Ladouceur, who has returned this year to the Whalers as an assistant coach. "I don't remember that game. But maybe that's because I was too shocked from getting hit."​

so in the aftermath of neely taking out his frustration on ladouceur, the league let him play the second night of the back-to-back before suspending him. boston won that game 4-3, but had been up 3-0 before hartford rallied back with three straight goals in the third to make it interesting. neely got an assist in that game.

so boston goes 2-3 in the five games neely's suspended. but when he comes back, things get interesting.

first game back was against buffalo. 3-2 win, neely gets the winner. another game, though, where they have a 3-0 lead in the third but the other team comes back to make it close. i'm sensing that was a problem with this team.

but then games two and three of neely's return were another back-to-back against hartford. so i'm thinking this is where boston got its mojo back. first game, which was in hartford, neely scores two goals, 5-1 win, not much in terms of fireworks, though big bob sweeney fought mike tomlak at the end of the game.

in the second game, at the garden, boston annihilates hartford. up 3-1 at the end of the first, neely picks up a goal and an assist in the second (janney with four assists), and sidorkiewicz doesn't start the third. and in the third, with the score now 7-2, someone named ed kastelic cheapshots janney behind the play. things get real —



neely grabs but refrains from ragdolling dean evason. nilan's trying to fight through the refs to get at hartford's guys.

as the refs are escorting kastelic off the ice to serve his ejection, he suckers byers on the bench then skates back onto the ice to safety. byers jumps on the ice after him and milbury grabs him and pulls him back to the bench like he's a cat that jumped up on the kitchen table. then the players try to fight through the partition separating the benches and as this is going on, verbeek connects the butt end of his stick with byers's face at least once. boston fans are throwing stuff but (afaict) sadly not climbing the glass. two future canucks assistant coaches named rick are dramatically threatening each other like they're in a WWF skit.

but that's not the end of it. five minutes later, neely, who's still in the game because he refrained from beating the living daylights out of tiny dean evason, gets his gordie for real when he does this —



against ulf samuelsson.

if we count boston's season from those two hartford routs to the end of the year, they go 28-14-8 the rest of the way. they win the wales conference by more than ten points. they beat hartford and montreal again in the playoffs and go up 2-0 against pittsburgh before...

this is the league's top ten in scoring from that point on —

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	+/-	PIM
Wayne Gretzky	L	C	49	22	86	108	20	14
Adam Oates	R	C	48	23	72	95	10	25
Brett Hull	R	R	48	57	32	89	20	16
Ray Bourque	L	D	50	17	56	73	30	47
Craig Janney	L	C	49	18	54	72	16	8
Theo Fleury	R	R	47	33	36	69	32	78
Cam Neely	R	R	45	39	28	67	18	56
Steve Yzerman	R	C	49	34	33	67	-6	18
Joe Sakic	L	C	48	29	38	67	-12	16

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

and the playoffs top ten up to the game where samuelsson knees neely —

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P	+/-	PIM
Mark Recchi	L	R	14	7	17	24	3	14
Mario Lemieux	R	C	14	7	14	21	0	8
Ray Bourque	L	D	15	6	15	21	1	8
Adam Oates	R	C	13	7	13	20	7	10
Craig Janney	L	C	14	3	17	20	1	11
Brett Hull	R	R	13	11	8	19	5	4
Brian Bellows	R	L	13	8	11	19	-1	10
Cam Neely	R	R	15	15	3	18	-1	30
Kevin Stevens	L	L	14	9	9	18	7	16

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

man, look at these scoring paces —

regular season pace/80

neely: 75 games, 65 goals, 46 assists, 111 points
janney: 79 games, 29 goals, 87 assists, 116 points
bourque: 80 games, 27 goals, 90 assists, 117 points

regular season + playoff total

neely: 60 games, 54 goals, 31 assists, 85 points
janney: 63 games, 21 goals, 71 assists, 92 points
bourque: 65 games, 23 goals, 71 assists, 94 points

regular season + playoff pace/80

neely: 75 games, 67 goals, 39 assists, 106 points
janney: 78 games, 26 goals, 88 assists, 114 points
bourque: 80 games, 28 goals, 87 assists, 116 points


this is peak neely, 100+ PIM pace, human wrecking ball on the forecheck, ragdolling guys on the regular, scoring 0.9 goals/game a consecutive 60 game sample.

 

[Big Phil]

And Ulf hit wasnt meant as a knee on knee hit either. He made himself as big as possible and Neely tried to get out the way and turned right into Samuelssons leg. Ulf wasnt even paying attention to him but was looking backwards at the puck.

I was never an Ulf fan, but I too think it was not intentional. Almost every knee on knee hit is not intentional. Probably because Ulf could have been hurt just as bad, if not worse, than Neely. So there is that risk. I think hockey is such a fast and reactionary game that it is easy to have these sort of collisions.

 

[Hobnobs]

I was never an Ulf fan, but I too think it was not intentional. Almost every knee on knee hit is not intentional. Probably because Ulf could have been hurt just as bad, if not worse, than Neely. So there is that risk. I think hockey is such a fast and reactionary game that it is easy to have these sort of collisions.

I agree in most cases. Then we have a guy like Marchment...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I agree in most cases. Then we have a guy like Marchment...

marchand is another guy who without a doubt has intentionally knee-on-kneed

 

[Dingo]

Cherry’s propaganda video on Ulf was actually a right knee on knee hit (that Neely made happen by trying to dodge) Neely’s left knee was the injured. Neely has acknowledged this.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Cherry’s propaganda video on Ulf was actually a right knee on knee hit (that Neely made happen by trying to dodge) Neely’s left knee was the injured. Neely has acknowledged this.

I thought it was his HIP that ended his career?

 

[BobbyAwe]

How good was Neely? Take Mike Bossy and make him also one of the best hitters and fighters in the league.

Neely was so good you could make 3 different highlight vids - one for goals, one for hits, one for fights.

 

[Buffalowing1988]

Neely was something else. I wish I was a bit older to really have understood his peak.

I remember finding video of him pummeling Lindy Ruff years ago and in Buffalo, Ruff is like the proverbial "dad" to a generation of millenial hockey fans. He was a leader of the organization for decades and to watch him just get his ass beat by Neely is...disheartening to say the least.

 

[Staniowski]

How good was Neely? Take Mike Bossy and make him also one of the best hitters and fighters in the league.

Neely was so good you could make 3 different highlight vids - one for goals, one for hits, one for fights.

Your 2nd paragraph is about as good a description of Neely as you'll ever see.

 

[Dingo]

I thought it was his HIP that ended his career?

it was his hip that ended his career. i believe a knee injury took him out of that playoffs, and is why Cherry was hunting for knee on knee clips of Ulf.

 

[Dingo]

i was a big Craig Janney fan, and, hence, also a Neely fan.

some things i sort of noticed

- how important a playmaking center was in terms of goal production for Neely, Shanahan and Hull.

- how even more important it was for a slowskating gentleman player like Craig to have a hustling forechecker like Neely or Shanahan to get the puck and make space/protection for him.

- the difference in this regard between Oates and Janney. Janney failed with the equally sluggish, clean and even lazy Hull. Oates had his best season without anyone big riding shotgun.

For my money Janney wasn neither lazy nor cowardly, he was just slow and didnt hit much or bend the rules. he took a ton of shit to make plays. he wasnt soft, but he needed a Neely more than Oates did. he was like Henrik Sedin but in a meaner time.

 

[sr edler]

I don't think one should blame Neely too much for his production in Vancouver, he was still really young there and Vancouver probably wasn't the most ideal organization at the time for his development. That said, regressing in his 3rd year there and getting traded off the team still probably isn't the greatest look.

How good was Neely? Take Mike Bossy and make him also one of the best hitters and fighters in the league.

Bossy was once 2nd league scoring only behind Gretzky and had 83 assists that year, 4th most assists in the league behind Gretzky (120) as well as Stastny (93) and Savard (87). Bossy routinely outscored teammate Bryan Trottier, Neely on the other hand was often outscored by teammate Craig Janney. And Ray Bourque.

Neely is closer to Tim Kerr than he is Mike Bossy. That said, I would take Neely instead of Kerr pretty easily because Neely was just a better skater/more dynamic. But I think Kerr actually led the Flyers in scoring thrice, two times in front of a healthy Propp.

Neely was so good you could make 3 different highlight vids - one for goals, one for hits, one for fights.

Wouldn't it have been better if one of those highlight reel videos included say some nice playmaking or some nice defensive plays?

Fighting? Seriously? Are there any actual tangible evidence that Neely's fighting skills actually helped his team win any more games?

If I was a Bruins fan and was watching the 1988 or 1990 SCFs I would have loved it if adored it if Neely dropped the gloves and just pummeled Mark Messier right on the nose. Other than that, no.

Neely's fighting was so important to his team's success that the coach/management/whatever specifically told him to do it less to be a more effective player.

 

[Hobnobs]

Wouldn't it have been better if one of those highlight reel videos included say some nice playmaking or some nice defensive plays?

Fighting? Seriously? Are there any actual tangible evidence that Neely's fighting skills actually helped his team win any more games?

If I was a Bruins fan and was watching the 1988 or 1990 SCFs I would have loved it if adored it if Neely dropped the gloves and just pummeled Mark Messier right on the nose. Other than that, no.

Neely's fighting was so important to his team's success that the coach/management/whatever specifically told him to do it less to be a more effective player.

Same with Tocchet in Philly. Was told to stop fighting often and guys like Baumgartner, Williams and Dupont. And if he were going to fight then he should fight guys like Neely and Messier. You know, the other teams more important players.

Btw remember when everyone was laughing at Semins fighting style? Neely did it first, vs Kocur. A true highlight real. I'll see if I can find it.

Found it

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't think one should blame Neely too much for his production in Vancouver, he was still really young there and Vancouver probably wasn't the most ideal organization at the time for his development. That said, regressing in his 3rd year there and getting traded off the team still probably isn't the greatest look. Bossy was once 2nd league scoring only behind Gretzky and had 83 assists that year, 4th most assists in the league behind Gretzky (120) as well as Stastny (93) and Savard (87). Bossy routinely outscored teammate Bryan Trottier, Neely on the other hand was often outscored by teammate Craig Janney. And Ray Bourque.

Neely is closer to Tim Kerr than he is Mike Bossy. That said, I would take Neely instead of Kerr pretty easily because Neely was just a better skater/more dynamic. But I think Kerr actually led the Flyers in scoring thrice, two times in front of a healthy Propp.



Wouldn't it have been better if one of those highlight reel videos included say some nice playmaking or some nice defensive plays?

Fighting? Seriously? Are there any actual tangible evidence that Neely's fighting skills actually helped his team win any more games?

If I was a Bruins fan and was watching the 1988 or 1990 SCFs I would have loved it if adored it if Neely dropped the gloves and just pummeled Mark Messier right on the nose. Other than that, no.

Neely's fighting was so important to his team's success that the coach/management/whatever specifically told him to do it less to be a more effective player.

Janney outscored Neely once. By one point. Playing 8 more games.