How good is Rasmus Ristolainen?

[Aceboogie]

Ristolainen spent the first two seasons of his career on one of the worst teams in modern history, and plays with a bottom pairing caliber partner in Gorges.

That excuse only goes so far. Gorges possession numbers actually go up to 48% when away from him. RRs stay the exact same

He is on a really bad D core and team, but his possession numbers relative to team still stink. He was a 38% possession player last year. Most average PKers play at 35% possession while on PK to put in context how bad that it. This season its a better but still bad 44%

Those 2 factors defiantly play into poor possession metrics. But they do not absolve him completely. Its tough to find comparables for him. Similar age D in simialr circumstances who went on to be good D in NHL had far better metrics

 

[GellMann]

That excuse only goes so far. Gorges possession numbers actually go up to 48% when away from him. RRs stay the exact same

He is on a really bad D core and team, but his possession numbers relative to team still stink. He was a 38% possession player last year. Most average PKers play at 35% possession while on PK to put in context how bad that it. This season its a better but still bad 44%

Those 2 factors defiantly play into poor possession metrics. But they do not absolve him completely. Its tough to find comparables for him. Similar age D in simialr circumstances who went on to be good D in NHL had far better metrics

When Gorges is away from Risto, he has much easier minutes.

 

[Aceboogie]

When Gorges is away from Risto, he has much easier minutes.

I find that very tough to achieve. Since he plays toughest minutes on the D

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=13&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f5=BUF&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

Dont know whats so tough to admit. Hes a young D and has his struggles. Not a top pairing D but not many his age are. Has great chance to improve and has big potential. People spend way to much time thinking of excuses for bad possession numbers.

People seem to have a really easy time (rightfully) criticizing Gorges:

I mean if your "already top pairing" is barely putting up better metrics than your "bottom pairing" slouch, I think alarm bells should be ringing at a deafening tone

 

[Samsonite23]

That excuse only goes so far. Gorges possession numbers actually go up to 48% when away from him. RRs stay the exact same

He is on a really bad D core and team, but his possession numbers relative to team still stink. He was a 38% possession player last year. Most average PKers play at 35% possession while on PK to put in context how bad that it. This season its a better but still bad 44%

Those 2 factors defiantly play into poor possession metrics. But they do not absolve him completely. Its tough to find comparables for him. Similar age D in simialr circumstances who went on to be good D in NHL had far better metrics

When Gorges is away from Risto, he plays against much easier competition with players like Mark Pysyk, Franson, and Zach Bogosian. It's not a surprise.

When Risto is away from Gorges, he plays with players like Carlo Colaiacovo, Mike Weber, and Jake McCabe.

One group is far better than the other. It's pretty easily explained.

Warrior charts are annoying. They have no context.

 

[Bengan]

He has great tools but still needs to learn what do do in his own zone.

Typical for young d-men. I see it all the time.

 

[MackAttack26]

I find that very tough to achieve. Since he plays toughest minutes on the D

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=30&s=13&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=D&f5=BUF&c=0+1+3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

Dont know whats so tough to admit. Hes a young D and has his struggles. Not a top pairing D but not many his age are. Has great chance to improve and has big potential. People spend way to much time thinking of excuses for bad possession numbers.

People seem to have a really easy time (rightfully) criticizing Gorges:

I mean if your "already top pairing" is barely putting up better metrics than your "bottom pairing" slouch, I think alarm bells should be ringing at a deafening tone

Well, 2 of those 3 seasons mean **** all sooo....

He has 40 points, plays 25+ minutes a night and does so quite respectably. He's definitely a solid #2. When possession stats start to tell you Ristolainen and Gorges are comparable that's when you start to see that they aren't the be all end all in determining how a good a player is.

 

[Aladyyn]

He is being relied on a lot more than he should at this stage. It often shows, he's looked gassed for quite some time now.

 

[Samsonite23]

Well, 2 of those 3 seasons mean **** all sooo....

He has 40 points, plays 25+ minutes a night and does so quite respectably. He's definitely a solid #2. When possession stats start to tell you Ristolainen and Gorges are comparable that's when you start to see that they aren't the be all end all in determining how a good a player is.

I didn't even look at it long enough to realize it was from 2013 until now. Those charts are so amazingly dumb.

 

[tripleX]

I didn't even look at it long enough to realize it was from 2013 until now. Those charts are so amazing dumb.

The WARRIOR chart is beyond dumb. Anyone uses WARRIOR chart like it's the final say probably doesn't know it's created by the first year college student using his secret formula. Everyone can easily create his own formula based on few stats and then generate beautiful charts like that site.

I guess as long as the chart has beautiful colors and bars, people do not care about the formula correctness or whether it's created by a first year college student or a preschooler.

 

[Dog]

He is an elite defenceman

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Before we go all-out and anoint Rasmus (whom I like), we should consider that anointing Rasmus would anoint other players. For instance (because I'm most familiar with Parayko). ^

 

[MackAttack26]

^ Parayko is a great defenseman too.

However, also he doesn't play the same minutes/face the same competition Rasmus does. and is a year older

 

[Aladyyn]

Because getting easier minutes on a good team is the same thing as being the all purpose 1D on a bad team. Totally comparable players.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

Because getting easier minutes on a good team is the same thing as being the all purpose 1D on a bad team. Totally comparable players.

Not the same, but my argument still stands: there is very little evidence to point to Rasmus as already being a top pairing dman (at least by league-wide standards).

He's a very good player with a high ceiling (elite 1D), but right now he's sort of in the same place as Seth Jones (albeit I view Rasmus as a much better player, with a much higher ceiling than Jones).

 

[Aceboogie]

Well, 2 of those 3 seasons mean **** all sooo....

He has 40 points, plays 25+ minutes a night and does so quite respectably. He's definitely a solid #2. When possession stats start to tell you Ristolainen and Gorges are comparable that's when you start to see that they aren't the be all end all in determining how a good a player is.

Possession metrics are always fair and objective until they put in to question a player you hold in high regard. Then they suck and are terribad. Of course

 

[Aceboogie]

^ Parayko is a great defenseman too.

However, also he doesn't play the same minutes/face the same competition Rasmus does. and is a year older

RR plays tougher comp, but is ranked equally higher for quality of teammates. Parayko plays with lower quality of teammates in easier comp. It evens out.

Parayko is miles ahead possession wise

 

[Samsonite23]

Possession metrics are always fair and objective until they put in to question a player you hold in high regard. Then they suck and are terribad. Of course

No, they just don't mean much when you're on one of the worst teams in the league, playing against top competition, with a partner in over his head. You have to use CONTEXT when using these numbers. They are extremely useful when used correctly.

 

[Aceboogie]

Because getting easier minutes on a good team is the same thing as being the all purpose 1D on a bad team. Totally comparable players.

You are right, they are not. Parayko posts amazing possession numbers, Ristolien is amongst worst possession D for D who play in top 4 in NHL

 

[Aceboogie]

No, they just don't mean much when you're on one of the worst teams in the league, playing against top competition, with a partner in over his head. You have to use CONTEXT when using these numbers. They are extremely useful when used correctly.

Context was used. Those factors dont absolve you from being a 44% possession player and even worse in relation to your team

Look at Morgan Rielly

Or Oscar Klefbom

Both in exact circumstances as RR. Top pairing QoC on respective team, both bottom feeding teams

 

[Samsonite23]

Context was used. Those factors dont absolve you from being a 44% possession player and even worse in relation to your team

Look at Morgan Rielly

Or Oscar Klefbom

Both in exact circumstances as RR. Top pairing QoC on respective team, both bottom feeding teams

You're posting stats from the last 3 years. It doesn't make sense to do that whatsoever. Nobody's calling Risto a 1st pairing dman when he was 19 on a historically bad Sabres team. It's also too wide of a range to explain the player's situation correctly.

BTW, you never responded to my post that explained Gorges' and Risto's stats when moved away from each other. Are you admitting that you didn't have the context correct?

 

[Cootsfanclub]

Warrior charts are an absolute joke. They showed patrick wiercioch as a top pairing guy and had Doughty iirc behind him. Warrior charts are less useful than +/- and are only ever used to push an agenda.

Risto is already a top pairing guy, he's trusted in every situation and excels. There isn't a single defenseman under 25 (including Ghost) I'd take over him going forward. I'm not even a Sabres fan, just a jealous fan of his game.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Obviously possession stats never tell the whole story, but I think it's an extremely disturbing trend that Ristolainen gets utterly shelled every single night.

 

[Samsonite23]

Obviously possession stats never tell the whole story, but I think it's an extremely disturbing trend that Ristolainen gets utterly shelled every single night.

I get why people think that. They look bad. I don't think people realize how much of a negative Josh Gorges (especially on a top pairing) is in terms of possession stats though. He's a really, really big negative.

 

[EichHart]

Context was used. Those factors dont absolve you from being a 44% possession player and even worse in relation to your team

Look at Morgan Rielly

Or Oscar Klefbom

Both in exact circumstances as RR. Top pairing QoC on respective team, both bottom feeding teams

The Sabres had 54 pts, 161 GF and 274 GA last year
The Leafs had 68 pts, 211 GF and 262 GA last year

The Sabres had 52 pts, 157 GF and 248 GA 2 years ago
The Leafs had 84 pts, 231 GF and 256 GA 2 years ago

The difference is huge in a statistical since as Risto is/was being relied upon as a #1 of a historically bad team offensively. Reilly was eased in as the Leafs had more veteran support to shelter him in certain situations. 161 and 157 GF in 2 consecutive years rank as the worst 2 years in NHL history.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

He is very good.

IMO he's easily a Top 2 Dman already. One of the best Dmen in the league under 23. Only Ekblad is for sure higher IMO.


He's a stud. Will be a Top 10D in the league in no time. See him being a lot like Ryan Suter. Never a huge point producer(A bit higher then Suter though) but extremely steady in his own zone, capable of eating 30 minutes a game. Used in all situations.


I think the Sabres got a good deal when they traded for ROR. However, I also feel if I were a Sabres fan it would hurt a bit to think about how dominant a pairing Zadorov/Risto would have been for them. Tallest, meanest, and strongest pairing in the league in 2-3 years probably.