How do you make the Leafs a great defensive team?

[LeafingTheWay]

Dermott was pretty impressive in his stint last year, but he was still pretty sheltered and I saw struggles in his game against better competition (and in the playoffs). I DO think he's going to be an excellent defenseman (Top 4 for sure, maybe top 2) at some point, but I think it would be a bad plan to assume he's going to be starting on the top pairing. Maybe he pulls it off, but that's a bit of a risk, both for the team overall and his development to just plan on him there.

NYR fans thought that after an excellent year with sheltered minutes, that Brady Skjei was ready for big time and he struggled as he picked up more responsibility. The team as a whole wasn't as good, but he had some rough stretches.

Yeah agreed that was my concern too. I was kinda hoping Babcock wouldn't overload the Rielly pairing and split the usage across the D because there's no real weak links in those pairings anymore. I expect Gardiner- Zaitsev to be better this season.

 

[luvdahattymatty]

Vegas Defenders
McNabb 6'4
Sbisa 6'2
Theodore 6'2
Engelland 6'2
Miller 6'1
Schmidt 6'1
Size is important to help win puck battles in your own end. Strength is important to clear pucks with power. However size without speed means nothing. You also need a little bit of that mean and nasty in a dman too. It helps scare the opposing forwards.

 

[Liminality]

Vegas Defenders
McNabb 6'4
Sbisa 6'2
Theodore 6'2
Engelland 6'2
Miller 6'1
Schmidt 6'1
Size is important to help win puck battles in your own end. Strength is important to clear pucks with power. However size without speed means nothing. You also need a little bit of that mean and nasty in a dman too. It helps scare the opposing forwards.

Definitely done by design. I know theAthletic was talking about how maybe the next market inefficiency could be smaller defenders who are quite under valued in this league but I'm not sold on that yet.
Bigger defenders with speed and skill are still super sought after and doesn't seem like that's going to change for a while.

 

[Trapper]

Definitely done by design. I know theAthletic was talking about how maybe the next market inefficiency could be smaller defenders who are quite under valued in this league but I'm not sold on that yet.
Bigger defenders with speed and skill are still super sought after and doesn't seem like that's going to change for a while.

There are certain aspects that I believe are a must have.
Speed is one of them.
Skill, IQ, puck moving, gap control and battle.
Speed/skating vs. slow/lack of mobility and speed wins every time. 5'10 or 6'2.
But if you can get it with 6'2 and strength, there you go.

 

[Brock Radunske]

How do you make the Leafs a great defensive team?

Is it possible? This question has been in my head ever since we got bounced from the playoffs. I'll concede that our defense isn't that bad. We can call it average if you'd like. Babcock and Dubas have both said that they are fine with our defense. And that's fair. But how do we make it our strength? How can we turn ourselves into a great defensive team? Is it possible?

I doubt anybody on here believes Leafs are a great defensive team... so how do we get from here to there?

The two biggest things that would help in my humble arm-chair GM opinion is the following;

1. Diversify the defense: A common myth is that the Leafs have bad defensemen. That's not true at all. The problem is their defenseman all play the same style and they don't compliment each other.
Gardiner, Rielly, Zaitsev, Dermott and Lily (projecting) all play similar styles with slight variants. The Leafs need a younger version of Hainsey and another physical guy who can make a first pass and I think everyone will greatly improve.

2. Stop collapsing in the zone late in the game: I've never understood this. They take the fight to the other team for 45 mins and then sit back and collapse for the final 15 mins and it becomes a shooting gallery. Of course they're going to blow leads and look horrible when your game plan is to fall back low and either chip it out for icing, try the stretch-pass for a likely icing or to just give it back to their point men.
The Leafs have some of the best skaters in the league. Skate the damn puck out and play with support.
Those kind of late game melt-down are just as much or more Babcock's fault as they are the defenseman's/goalies.

 

[Bluelines]

How?

You have to have a great system.
Buy-in from the players.
No "me first" players.
Repetition.
Repetition.
Repetition.
Rinse.
Wash .
Repeat.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Vegas Defenders
McNabb 6'4
Sbisa 6'2
Theodore 6'2
Engelland 6'2
Miller 6'1
Schmidt 6'1
Size is important to help win puck battles in your own end. Strength is important to clear pucks with power. However size without speed means nothing. You also need a little bit of that mean and nasty in a dman too. It helps scare the opposing forwards.

Height isn't really "size" or more specifically strength.

 

[Trapper]

Height isn't really "size" or more specifically strength.

No Dermott isn't that much taller than Carrick. But he is stronger.
Height can give you reach, weight vs. light is an asset in board battles (IQ and solid positioning can compensate) but skating is critical.
You don't take 6'2, 225 Luke Schenn over Dermott.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

No Dermott isn't that much taller than Carrick. But he is stronger.
Height can give you reach, weight vs. light is an asset in board battles (IQ and solid positioning can compensate) but skating is critical.
You don't take 6'2, 225 Luke Schenn over Dermott.

It CAN, yes. Pet peeve of mine seeing people fascinated by height as if it makes you stronger by default.

 

[indigobuffalo]

The two biggest things that would help in my humble arm-chair GM opinion is the following;

1. Diversify the defense: A common myth is that the Leafs have bad defensemen. That's not true at all. The problem is their defenseman all play the same style and they don't compliment each other.
Gardiner, Rielly, Zaitsev, Dermott and Lily (projecting) all play similar styles with slight variants. The Leafs need a younger version of Hainsey and another physical guy who can make a first pass and I think everyone will greatly improve.

2. Stop collapsing in the zone late in the game: I've never understood this. They take the fight to the other team for 45 mins and then sit back and collapse for the final 15 mins and it becomes a shooting gallery. Of course they're going to blow leads and look horrible when your game plan is to fall back low and either chip it out for icing, try the stretch-pass for a likely icing or to just give it back to their point men.
The Leafs have some of the best skaters in the league. Skate the damn puck out and play with support.
Those kind of late game melt-down are just as much or more Babcock's fault as they are the defenseman's/goalies.

Hainsey has been a Polak caliber defenceman his whole career until two years ago when Pittsburgh had a slough of injuries and by virtue of no other option had to give Hainsey top pairing minutes.

What a “younger” Ron Hainsey would be who knows. It’s a career of experience that resulted in Hainsey being serviceable as a top pairing dman.

 

[indigobuffalo]

They basically built the same team we are building. They got about a 1-2 year head start by being able to select their team.

Where we will have a huge edge is sustainability.

A few other factors like their being a new team, new roster, new coach, allowed for a total buy-in of the system top-to-bottom.

 

[TimPeel]

They need to watch Mighty Ducks 3.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You don't you can't,

 

[sxvnert]

Improve the D (enough with the fringe) and remove forwards who cant play at both ends of the rink. We're definitely on the right path though.

 

[Brock Radunske]

Hainsey has been a Polak caliber defenceman his whole career until two years ago when Pittsburgh had a slough of injuries and by virtue of no other option had to give Hainsey top pairing minutes.

What a “younger” Ron Hainsey would be who knows. It’s a career of experience that resulted in Hainsey being serviceable as a top pairing dman.

I'm speaking stylistically, not a carbon copy.
Just a good smart player who can support skilled partners.

 

[ULF_55]

Get 6, 2nd. pairing defenders.

Don't employ any 4th. line talent, even if you have to sacrifice 1st. line talent to eliminate the 4th. liners.

Implement a strategy to support each other on all lines in all zones.

Parlay your selfish top line players for team first middle line players.
...
I haven't read this entire thread, but just the title sets it up for a punch line somewhere in here.
Time Machine
Kidnap X
Sandpaper the opposition skate blades
Implement a toll both at the blueline
...

 

[apollo678]

Vegas Defenders
McNabb 6'4
Sbisa 6'2
Theodore 6'2
Engelland 6'2
Miller 6'1
Schmidt 6'1
Size is important to help win puck battles in your own end. Strength is important to clear pucks with power. However size without speed means nothing. You also need a little bit of that mean and nasty in a dman too. It helps scare the opposing forwards.

The league is trending smaller and faster. Of the top 10 point producers this past season, only 3 are big, heavy players (Malkin, Kopitar and Wheeler).
I think the most important trait moving forward will be hockey IQ. Making the right decisions quickly.
You wont have much time to react so as a defender you will have to anticipate how the play will develop.

 

[Liminality]

The league is trending smaller and faster. Of the top 10 point producers this past season, only 3 are big, heavy players (Malkin, Kopitar and Wheeler).
I think the most important trait moving forward will be hockey IQ. Making the right decisions quickly.
You wont have much time to react so as a defender you will have to anticipate how the play will develop.

Here's the top 10 point producers for Dmen last season

Carlson 6'3
Burns 6'5
Klingberg 6'2
Gostisbehere 5'11
Hedman 6'6
Karlsson 6'0
Doughty 6'1
Subban 6'0
Krug 5'9
Jones 6'4

Still mainly a pretty big group with Krug being the biggest outlier. These are mostly defenders that are a combination of skill, speed and size.
Maybe we'll see the smaller defender trend in the next couple of years but I haven't fully bought into that yet.

 

[apollo678]

Here's the top 10 point producers for Dmen last season

Carlson 6'3
Burns 6'5
Klingberg 6'2
Gostisbehere 5'11
Hedman 6'6
Karlsson 6'0
Doughty 6'1
Subban 6'0
Krug 5'9
Jones 6'4

Still mainly a pretty big group with Krug being the biggest outlier. These are mostly defenders that are a combination of skill, speed and size.
Maybe we'll see the smaller defender trend in the next couple of years but I haven't fully bought into that yet.

Funny...but out of that group I only think of Hedman, Jones and maybe Carlson as big guys. Burns is too busy playing offense and same with Klingberg (though I don't watch him much, I have had him in various hockey pools...to me he is like Gardiner who is 6'2 but does not play a strength game)

 

[Liminality]

Funny...but out of that group I only think of Hedman, Jones and maybe Carlson as big guys. Burns is too busy playing offense and same with Klingberg (though I don't watch him much, I have had him in various hockey pools...to me he is like Gardiner who is 6'2 but does not play a strength game)

No you're right, maybe I shouldn't look at organizing them through points. Kind of hard to find a measurable way to rank the top 10 defense. I'm going to post the top 10 in Norris voting for last years dmen but even then it's heavily swayed by offense.

Burns 6'5
Karlsson 6'0
Hedman 6'6
Keith 6'1
Suter 6'2
Weber 6'4
Doughty 6'1
Giordano 6'0
Hamilton 6'6
Shultz 6'2

I think it's going to be hard to have 5'9 defenders to transition into the top defenders in the league. That'll only happen when the league at forward becomes a lot smaller than it already is.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I'm speaking stylistically, not a carbon copy.
Just a good smart player who can support skilled partners.

My point was those types aren’t usually young. That is typically something that comes from years at the job.

A great example is Methot. He was great at anchoring Karlsson but was lacklustre everywhere else prior to that.

Usually these guys are good enough to last but nothing remarkable otherwise.

You aren’t going to find one in the draft.

 

[saltming]

Vegas Defenders
McNabb 6'4
Sbisa 6'2
Theodore 6'2
Engelland 6'2
Miller 6'1
Schmidt 6'1
Size is important to help win puck battles in your own end. Strength is important to clear pucks with power. However size without speed means nothing. You also need a little bit of that mean and nasty in a dman too. It helps scare the opposing forwards.

I agree with Lou here. He's talking about Dermott but in general.
Oh I also agree with @Trapper

You guys had a defenceman in New Jersey named Brian Rafalski, who wasn’t the tallest guy, but he was solid, and strong, and had an ability to compete. I’m not comparing the two, but I think sometimes people get mesmerized by looking at the measuring tape. From Travis’ standpoint, I don’t think you do that. I’m really intrigued to see how he continues to develop.

Lamoriello: I’ll take a medium-sized player who has top hockey strength over a taller or bigger player that does not have hockey strength. There is a difference. Hockey strength is something different than just pure strength. The young man you talked about, Brian Rafalski, had hockey strength. I believe this young man we’re talking about has hockey strength. What I mean by that is, when they got into a corner — no matter what their size is — and when they lean on their stick, they can compete with anyone. I’ve seen bigger players who don’t have that. You see players sometimes fall for different reasons, and it’s not by accident. It’s just the power in their legs, or their strength. That, to me, is what’s important.

 

[moon111]

On defense, I don't see any problem with pairings that have one blueliner who can get the puck out to start offensive plays, and a more defensive defenseman. For offensive blueliners, they usually
incur some risk. Turnovers happen. The issue is, how many turnovers compared to their offense?

#3 Jake Gardiner...... 105 giveaways 16th in scoring. 52 points.................. -13
#14 Ron Hainsey ........85 giveaways 83rd in scoring. 23 points................... -79
#16 Morgan Rielly ......79 giveaways 15th in scoring. 52 points.................. -1
#21 Nikita Zaitsev ......76 giveaways (60 gp) 139th in scoring. 13 points.................. -118
#126 Travis Dermott ..36 giveaways (37 gp) 149th in scoring. 13 points.................... -23

I think it's clear, the offensive force should be Reilly, Gardiner, and Dermott. Hainsey and
Zaitsev are more dangerous with the puck then Polak who'd just launches it up the rink for
an icing. There's some really bad return on the Leaf's risk investment. Also to note, there could
also be an issue of how well forwards help out. If Matthews sets himself up for an outlet
pass while Plekanec doesn't, one blueliner's ability to make a safe play might be different
then another's.

On the defensive side, to me it's hard to have a defensive blueliner who throws less then one hit per game. They need a physical presence.
This has been a HUGE issue of goals being scored in front of the Leaf's net in the playoffs.

Hits per game. Blocked Shots per game. Combine?
Borgman 2.5 / 0.8 3.2
Polak 2.4 / 1.6 4.0
Zaitsev 1.9 / 2.2 4.1
Dermott 1.3 / 1.0 2.3
Hainsey 1.1 / 2.1 3.2
J. Holl 1.0 / 1.5 2.5

I think this paints the picture of Zaitsev, Polak, Haisey being the best at their role. I'm not a big fan of Hainsey, so I do have that bias.
But really a stay-at-home needs to be tough to handle guys in front, and Hainsey doesn't offer that. Borgman was the exact opposite.
I know how everyone talks about the Mike Greens of the world, but I think the Leafs need at least one blueliners who can throw close
to 2 hits a game and block 2 as well. Polak, Christian Folin, Luke Schenn... they'll get ripped apart by the fans, but they'll do a much
needed job in front of the net.

 

[Bluelines]

They need to watch Mighty Ducks 3.

YES!!!! The flying "V" is the answer....

 

[Ziggdiezan]

The Leafs don't actually need to be a 'great defensive team' to win the cup because of how good the offense is.

Just need to give the team some time and not make any rash decisions chasing defenders like Edmonton did. Pretty much a perfect example of what not to do and a lot of leaf fans seem to want to make similar trades.

Stay the course, try to make Hamonic style trades of futures if you can but don't trade any of the young core yet