Pavels Dog
Registered User
There's no real basis for saying that. If we don't "nail" players outside the first round it just makes the process take longer and puts more pressure on filling out the roster via UFA or trade.
How do you fix the Wings?
- Thread starter OgeeOgelthorpe
- Start date
TheClap
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2014
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You're going to need to be able to hit on something beyond your first round top 10 picks to build a winning roster.
Snuggs
Registered User
- Jun 24, 2018
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I'm not a huge supporter or hater of the draft but you don't see any guys drafted outside of the 1st round in the Red Wings system with NHL potential?
Serious question. Not being a jerk. Or you just mad there aren't guys here now?
Hows that working out for us now??? Its been taking longer and everyone's losing they're minds
Likes of tampa had cirelli gourde point palat killorn etc when they won cups besides the 1sts
Not easy putting in 5 1st rounders and then putting in everyone else from ufa and trades and making them cup contenders
Fortunately I think theres optimism cause I can see a handful of guys from outside the 1st round being important players for us soon
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Tampa didn't even draft in the 1st round the year they got Cirelli. Yes, without 1st round picks you need to hit on other picks.
Frk It
Mo Seider Less Problems
- Jul 27, 2010
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Cossa and ASP are looking extremely good for being picked #15 and #17. Some of our 2nd rounders are starting to come on pretty strong as well.
Your suggestion that everything is doom and gloom is pretty off, IMO.
ridilon
Registered User
- Sep 14, 2017
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This is not really the case. You don't need 2nd round picks and beyond to develop into anything. You need to be able to trade and sing FAs that play well for you. Florida has Lundell and Kulikov drafted outside the top 10 and playing a legit role on the team. They're not driving the Panthers by any means. 1st OA, 2nd OA guys like Barkov and Ekblad are the picks making a difference and everyone else from Tkachuk to Reinhart to Bobrovsky to Forsling or whomever were FAs and trades. Wings need better professional scouting and a blockbuster trade needs to happen.
19 for president
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- Apr 28, 2002
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As long as your 1st rounders end up as top end players you can largely build through the 1st round. The issue comes if those guys don't all end up as 1st line/pair/ starter talent. Seider, Ray, Ed absolutely fit the bill as top end talent. Cossa and ASP are also looking like special players. Kasper, MBN, and Danielson are going to have to prove to be at least top 6 if not top 3 for this work.
Stevie has actually done his building in a smart way too in order to maximize his window by drafting his dmen and goalies first. Those positions typically take the longest to develop whereas forwards can often fully contribute in 0-2 seasons post draft.
We really need Kasper or Danielson to develop into at least a Larkin level center and the other to be a true 50/60 point 2nd line guy, because we a probably going to be outside of Larkin's top 3 timeline.
Our lack of center depth in the organization still scares me. If we end up drafting high this year I hope we can address that but it will be really hard to pass on a more sure bet offensive winger to do it.
Now with that said I don't think the Wings post 1st round picks are a total disaster. I see a lot of potential in Buch, Finnie, Augustine, Wally, Lombardi, Mazur, Plante and Ant Jo. There are also some intriguing depth guys Tuo, Buium, Savage, Kiiskenen, Soderblom. I do wish they had gone a little more boom/bust on some picks in early tank drafts. But with boom/bust guys they often take a bit longer to develop and I think we are seeing this with Buch, Wally, Lombardi, Finnie, Mazur. So it doesn't super concern me that these guys aren't in the NHL yet. My issue is when we have 1st round guys, in at least their 2nd year post draft, that are clearly in the top 18 players on the team and aren't being given roster spots. Ed should have been there last year and Kasper should have been there from the start this year.
Stevie has actually done his building in a smart way too in order to maximize his window by drafting his dmen and goalies first. Those positions typically take the longest to develop whereas forwards can often fully contribute in 0-2 seasons post draft.
We really need Kasper or Danielson to develop into at least a Larkin level center and the other to be a true 50/60 point 2nd line guy, because we a probably going to be outside of Larkin's top 3 timeline.
Our lack of center depth in the organization still scares me. If we end up drafting high this year I hope we can address that but it will be really hard to pass on a more sure bet offensive winger to do it.
Now with that said I don't think the Wings post 1st round picks are a total disaster. I see a lot of potential in Buch, Finnie, Augustine, Wally, Lombardi, Mazur, Plante and Ant Jo. There are also some intriguing depth guys Tuo, Buium, Savage, Kiiskenen, Soderblom. I do wish they had gone a little more boom/bust on some picks in early tank drafts. But with boom/bust guys they often take a bit longer to develop and I think we are seeing this with Buch, Wally, Lombardi, Finnie, Mazur. So it doesn't super concern me that these guys aren't in the NHL yet. My issue is when we have 1st round guys, in at least their 2nd year post draft, that are clearly in the top 18 players on the team and aren't being given roster spots. Ed should have been there last year and Kasper should have been there from the start this year.
That's the point , tampa hit players outside the 1st + stamkos hedman vasilevsky
We"ll need some guys to start hitting and I believe we have some guys with promise
Finnie buchelnikov Augustine Johansson soderblom mazur kiiskinen Lombardi savage james
There's reason to be optimistic
When you have a lot of first-round picks, and don't miss on any of them, you don't need as many later picks to hit as those teams that don't have a lot of first-round picks or screw up a few. Still a ways to go to be certain with the last five of the eight, SY first-rounders, but the first three are studs, two or three more with star or top half of the roster potential, the others TBD but tracking well. I would not bet against all the remaining five being at least useful players.
Wings' drafting outside the first round sucked in 2019/20. It's been better since. Rebuild staying on track and working hinges IMO on one of Danielson/Kasper being a solid 2C, the other a good 3C. Larkin is 28. Barring serious injury he'll be much the same kind of player he is now for 4-5 more years. He has a NMC clause through the fifth year of his extension, the 2027-28 season, during which he'll be 31. After that season he has a 10-team trade list. He could demand a trade at anytime, but I think he's committed to giving the rebuild through that season and then re-assess things.
Wings' drafting outside the first round sucked in 2019/20. It's been better since. Rebuild staying on track and working hinges IMO on one of Danielson/Kasper being a solid 2C, the other a good 3C. Larkin is 28. Barring serious injury he'll be much the same kind of player he is now for 4-5 more years. He has a NMC clause through the fifth year of his extension, the 2027-28 season, during which he'll be 31. After that season he has a 10-team trade list. He could demand a trade at anytime, but I think he's committed to giving the rebuild through that season and then re-assess things.
TheClap
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2014
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Wake me up when they're excelling in the NHL.
Until then it's speculation, and bordering on delusion with the way the past 6 years have gone.
DamonDRW
Registered User
People like to compare here our route with Tampa's one forgetting that they had a luck drafting nearly generational player in Kucherov (100+ pts consistently). He was a difference maker on that roster just Ike MakKinnon is on Avs roster and McDavid for Edmonton. well, he still carries them and they are pretty much a single line team now.
if we would have one player in the system like Kucherov, our future would be safe.
if we would have one player in the system like Kucherov, our future would be safe.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Raymond is outscoring Kucherov at the same age. Can't count on Kucherov-like exponential improvement going forward though.
Tampa is a pretty bad comparable for us either way though. I actually think we have a good shot at building a stronger defensive core though.
Snuggs
Registered User
- Jun 24, 2018
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Kudos, you told me he could reach 90. Rooting for it to happen!
If Red Wings have a 90 point player on the team the clock should be on for everyone. Rebuild over and winning should be the main priority at all cost. 90 point players, literally, do not grow on trees. There's been a handful of Red Wings players to achieve that number in two or three decades.
AlwaysSunnyInDetroit
i may or may not have been drunk when i said that
- Oct 1, 2021
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this is a lot of words just to say, 'i think we should tank next year too'
19 for president
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2002
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I don't think that roster I proposed is a tank roster. Moving Ed to the 2nd pair I think gives us a competent 2nd pair if not great. It at least gives us 2 units with dman that can complete a basic pass. Giving Seider a stay at home partner allows him to better use employ his offensive skills. If we sign a top end UFA forward that gives us a really solid 1st line. Lines 2 and 3 have a lot of skilled youth and Ray which would hopefully give us some scoring. For the 4th line hopefully we can sign a guy with a bit of physicality. We are a bit small but that is a speedy lineup that could easily do well on the rush if we have more than 1 pairing that can compete a pass.
Granted all of this also is based on us getting a competent coach that knows how to build a system around the players he has....
I mean I guess all the kids could bomb out but I think MBN, Danielson, and Buch all have a ton of potential. I could see us not making the playoffs but I think we'd at least be a bubble team. If my goal was to full tank, I'd just keep the same roster minus the UFAs and not go after guys like Ehlers, Marner, Rantanen (if they make it to the signing period).
19 for president
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- Apr 28, 2002
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Kudos, you told me he could reach 90. Rooting for it to happen!
If Red Wings have a 90 point player on the team the clock should be on for everyone. Rebuild over and winning should be the main priority at all cost. 90 point players, literally, do not grow on trees. There's been a handful of Red Wings players to achieve that number in two or three decades.
Wild is that he is on pace for 84 currently with a team looking at the 6th lowest GPG in the league currently.
Its only 30 games but honestly since his tear in the 2nd half last year, he's been remarkably consistent. Goals are a little more hit or miss than I'd like, but he still puts up points even when he isn't scoring.
What's next season's team going to look like...
GOAL:
Talbot, Cossa
...That's fine.
DEFENSE:
Edvinssson --- Seider
??? --- Johansson
Chiarot --- ???
(GR: Holl, Gustafsson)
...I'm all for trading Chiarot now. And I'm all for trading Holl and Gustafsson if we can do so giving up only a 3rd or less. I'll presume nothing happens here.
...ASP may be ready to take that #2 RHD spot at some point next yr. I think Wallinder probably needs another yr in GR...but he may be up eventually.
...Need to find that long-term #2 LHD. Chychrun. Pettersson. Provorov. Idk if one of them is the answer. Nor do I have any idea about the trade options. But I don't think we have time to draft and develop that answer. And this would be as good a time as any to try to find an answer.
...Need to find a 3rd pair RHD too. Solid vet on a 1yr/$1M contract shouldn't be too hard to find.
FORWARDS:
Debrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
Buchelnikov --- Danielson --- Mazur
Veleno --- Kasper --- Berggren
Rasmussen --- Compher --- Copp
(GR: Tarasenko)
...Need to get rid of Tarasenko, I'd be happy to give up a 3rd to do it. I'd be happy to give up a 2nd to get rid of Compher and/or Copp. I'd be happy to trade Ras or Veleno too. For now I won't assume anything happens.
...Buchelnikov won't be signing an AHL contract, so he'll be up. Danielson and Mazur will be ready. Maybe Lombardi will be ready at some point...maybe MBN...maybe Finnie.
...If Rantanen or Marner hit the market, you do whatever it takes. We don't need any more depth players. We have all the depth we'll need. We need elite talents.
DRAFT:
Has to be an elite scorer this yr, I think. We don't have time to draft and develop our #2 LHD. Elite scoring forward can be on the roster after one post-draft season ala Raymond. If we get a top-5 pick...Misa's my favorite.
*****
It's really not that bleak of a situation.
GOAL:
Talbot, Cossa
...That's fine.
DEFENSE:
Edvinssson --- Seider
??? --- Johansson
Chiarot --- ???
(GR: Holl, Gustafsson)
...I'm all for trading Chiarot now. And I'm all for trading Holl and Gustafsson if we can do so giving up only a 3rd or less. I'll presume nothing happens here.
...ASP may be ready to take that #2 RHD spot at some point next yr. I think Wallinder probably needs another yr in GR...but he may be up eventually.
...Need to find that long-term #2 LHD. Chychrun. Pettersson. Provorov. Idk if one of them is the answer. Nor do I have any idea about the trade options. But I don't think we have time to draft and develop that answer. And this would be as good a time as any to try to find an answer.
...Need to find a 3rd pair RHD too. Solid vet on a 1yr/$1M contract shouldn't be too hard to find.
FORWARDS:
Debrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
Buchelnikov --- Danielson --- Mazur
Veleno --- Kasper --- Berggren
Rasmussen --- Compher --- Copp
(GR: Tarasenko)
...Need to get rid of Tarasenko, I'd be happy to give up a 3rd to do it. I'd be happy to give up a 2nd to get rid of Compher and/or Copp. I'd be happy to trade Ras or Veleno too. For now I won't assume anything happens.
...Buchelnikov won't be signing an AHL contract, so he'll be up. Danielson and Mazur will be ready. Maybe Lombardi will be ready at some point...maybe MBN...maybe Finnie.
...If Rantanen or Marner hit the market, you do whatever it takes. We don't need any more depth players. We have all the depth we'll need. We need elite talents.
DRAFT:
Has to be an elite scorer this yr, I think. We don't have time to draft and develop our #2 LHD. Elite scoring forward can be on the roster after one post-draft season ala Raymond. If we get a top-5 pick...Misa's my favorite.
*****
It's really not that bleak of a situation.
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Oddbob
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2016
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No way 3 rookies are going to be the 2nd line. Much better chance they don't even all make the team.
Sure. Ideally we'd sign a top-six stud and everyone would slot down.
Kasper would probably be your 2C at the start of the yr.
Etc.. etc.. etc.
Just a rough picture.
Lampedampe
Registered User
- Feb 26, 2015
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That 3rd line looks terrible, and given how Johansson hasn't looked capable of playing 16 min a night I'm skeptical to him on the top-4.
Need a guy like Hagens to come in for this team to look competitive.
Debrincat-Larkin-Kasper
Compher-Hagens-Raymond
Rasmussen-Danielson-Tarasenko
Mazur-Copp-Veleno
Edvinsson-Seider
Pettersson-ASP*
Chiarot-Johansson/Wallinder/Buium
Holl
Gustafsson should've been banished to AHL already.
Like you said, a top-4 LHD really needs to come from the outside. Pettersson would be ideal because I don't think he'll demand too high of a cap hit, but he'll likely get long term instead.
I'd be suprised if ASP is truly ready for top-4 deployment so this is optimistic.
Hobnobs
Pinko
- Nov 29, 2011
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Current wings is not unfixable but we won't improve much this season.
Next year I'm hoping for Danielson, ASP, Finnie, Buch, Kasper and Cossa taking the next step in their development. Those players are the ones I have the highest hopes for becoming core players.
As well as Wallinder/Johansson/Buium for depth
I'd like a good physical defensive winger for a nice third line.
Something like:
DeBrincat - Larkin - Raymond
Copp* - Kasper - Compher*
Copp - Danielson - Physical W
Rasmussen - Veleno - Fischer/FA/Kid
Defense
Seider - Edvinsson
and then ASP/Wallinder/Johansson/Buium etc rotating and always paired with a vet D on the other two pairings
Talbot
Cossa
* = they will be rotated out of the second line regularly for kids ready for testing on second line duty.
Copp and Compher are only there if we cant trade them.
Tarasenko, Kane, Bergqvist, Petry and Motte are let go or traded at the TDL.
Next year I'm hoping for Danielson, ASP, Finnie, Buch, Kasper and Cossa taking the next step in their development. Those players are the ones I have the highest hopes for becoming core players.
As well as Wallinder/Johansson/Buium for depth
I'd like a good physical defensive winger for a nice third line.
Something like:
DeBrincat - Larkin - Raymond
Copp* - Kasper - Compher*
Copp - Danielson - Physical W
Rasmussen - Veleno - Fischer/FA/Kid
Defense
Seider - Edvinsson
and then ASP/Wallinder/Johansson/Buium etc rotating and always paired with a vet D on the other two pairings
Talbot
Cossa
* = they will be rotated out of the second line regularly for kids ready for testing on second line duty.
Copp and Compher are only there if we cant trade them.
Tarasenko, Kane, Bergqvist, Petry and Motte are let go or traded at the TDL.
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Why veleno top line? Unless were showcasing him dont get it. Much rather try kasper on the top line and try and get our top 10 pick going and not trying to mold him into another 4th liner
Yes I know it's his rookie season but considering where we are I'd be trying to get this kid's confidence to only go up
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Let McLellan experiment a bit. Just because it's not exactly how you'd do it doesn't mean it can't work.
Pretty clear they want Kasper at center btw.
