How do you fix the Wings?

[Pavels Dog]

Point is we wont win shit if dont start nailing players in the draft outside the first round

There's no real basis for saying that. If we don't "nail" players outside the first round it just makes the process take longer and puts more pressure on filling out the roster via UFA or trade.

 

[TheClap]

Ok so explain Raymond, Seider, Edvinsson…

You're going to need to be able to hit on something beyond your first round top 10 picks to build a winning roster.

 

[Snuggs]

You're going to need to be able to hit on something beyond your first round top 10 picks to build a winning roster.

I'm not a huge supporter or hater of the draft but you don't see any guys drafted outside of the 1st round in the Red Wings system with NHL potential?

Serious question. Not being a jerk. Or you just mad there aren't guys here now?

 

[wingsfannn919191]

There's no real basis for saying that. If we don't "nail" players outside the first round it just makes the process take longer and puts more pressure on filling out the roster via UFA or trade.

Hows that working out for us now??? Its been taking longer and everyone's losing they're minds

Likes of tampa had cirelli gourde point palat killorn etc when they won cups besides the 1sts

Not easy putting in 5 1st rounders and then putting in everyone else from ufa and trades and making them cup contenders

Fortunately I think theres optimism cause I can see a handful of guys from outside the 1st round being important players for us soon

 

[schuelma24]

You're going to need to be able to hit on something beyond your first round top 10 picks to build a winning roster.

ASP and Cossa.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Hows that working out for us now??? Its been taking longer and everyone's losing they're minds

Likes of tampa had cirelli gourde point palat killorn etc when they won cups besides the 1sts

Tampa didn't even draft in the 1st round the year they got Cirelli. Yes, without 1st round picks you need to hit on other picks.

 

[Frk It]

You're going to need to be able to hit on something beyond your first round top 10 picks to build a winning roster.

Cossa and ASP are looking extremely good for being picked #15 and #17. Some of our 2nd rounders are starting to come on pretty strong as well.

Your suggestion that everything is doom and gloom is pretty off, IMO.

 

[ridilon]

You're going to need to be able to hit on something beyond your first round top 10 picks to build a winning roster.

This is not really the case. You don't need 2nd round picks and beyond to develop into anything. You need to be able to trade and sing FAs that play well for you. Florida has Lundell and Kulikov drafted outside the top 10 and playing a legit role on the team. They're not driving the Panthers by any means. 1st OA, 2nd OA guys like Barkov and Ekblad are the picks making a difference and everyone else from Tkachuk to Reinhart to Bobrovsky to Forsling or whomever were FAs and trades. Wings need better professional scouting and a blockbuster trade needs to happen.

 

[19 for president]

As long as your 1st rounders end up as top end players you can largely build through the 1st round. The issue comes if those guys don't all end up as 1st line/pair/ starter talent. Seider, Ray, Ed absolutely fit the bill as top end talent. Cossa and ASP are also looking like special players. Kasper, MBN, and Danielson are going to have to prove to be at least top 6 if not top 3 for this work.

Stevie has actually done his building in a smart way too in order to maximize his window by drafting his dmen and goalies first. Those positions typically take the longest to develop whereas forwards can often fully contribute in 0-2 seasons post draft.

We really need Kasper or Danielson to develop into at least a Larkin level center and the other to be a true 50/60 point 2nd line guy, because we a probably going to be outside of Larkin's top 3 timeline.

Our lack of center depth in the organization still scares me. If we end up drafting high this year I hope we can address that but it will be really hard to pass on a more sure bet offensive winger to do it.

Now with that said I don't think the Wings post 1st round picks are a total disaster. I see a lot of potential in Buch, Finnie, Augustine, Wally, Lombardi, Mazur, Plante and Ant Jo. There are also some intriguing depth guys Tuo, Buium, Savage, Kiiskenen, Soderblom. I do wish they had gone a little more boom/bust on some picks in early tank drafts. But with boom/bust guys they often take a bit longer to develop and I think we are seeing this with Buch, Wally, Lombardi, Finnie, Mazur. So it doesn't super concern me that these guys aren't in the NHL yet. My issue is when we have 1st round guys, in at least their 2nd year post draft, that are clearly in the top 18 players on the team and aren't being given roster spots. Ed should have been there last year and Kasper should have been there from the start this year.

 

[wingsfannn919191]

Tampa didn't even draft in the 1st round the year they got Cirelli. Yes, without 1st round picks you need to hit on other picks.

That's the point , tampa hit players outside the 1st + stamkos hedman vasilevsky

We"ll need some guys to start hitting and I believe we have some guys with promise

Finnie buchelnikov Augustine Johansson soderblom mazur kiiskinen Lombardi savage james

There's reason to be optimistic

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

When you have a lot of first-round picks, and don't miss on any of them, you don't need as many later picks to hit as those teams that don't have a lot of first-round picks or screw up a few. Still a ways to go to be certain with the last five of the eight, SY first-rounders, but the first three are studs, two or three more with star or top half of the roster potential, the others TBD but tracking well. I would not bet against all the remaining five being at least useful players.

Wings' drafting outside the first round sucked in 2019/20. It's been better since. Rebuild staying on track and working hinges IMO on one of Danielson/Kasper being a solid 2C, the other a good 3C. Larkin is 28. Barring serious injury he'll be much the same kind of player he is now for 4-5 more years. He has a NMC clause through the fifth year of his extension, the 2027-28 season, during which he'll be 31. After that season he has a 10-team trade list. He could demand a trade at anytime, but I think he's committed to giving the rebuild through that season and then re-assess things.

 

[TheClap]

ASP and Cossa.

Wake me up when they're excelling in the NHL.

Until then it's speculation, and bordering on delusion with the way the past 6 years have gone.

 

[DamonDRW]

People like to compare here our route with Tampa's one forgetting that they had a luck drafting nearly generational player in Kucherov (100+ pts consistently). He was a difference maker on that roster just Ike MakKinnon is on Avs roster and McDavid for Edmonton. well, he still carries them and they are pretty much a single line team now.

if we would have one player in the system like Kucherov, our future would be safe.

 

[Pavels Dog]

People like to compare here our route with Tampa's one forgetting that they had a luck drafting nearly generational player in Kucherov (100+ pts consistently). He was a difference maker on that roster just Ike MakKinnon is on Avs roster and McDavid for Edmonton. well, he still carries them and they are pretty much a single line team now.

if we would have one player in the system like Kucherov, our future would be safe.

Raymond is outscoring Kucherov at the same age. Can't count on Kucherov-like exponential improvement going forward though.

Tampa is a pretty bad comparable for us either way though. I actually think we have a good shot at building a stronger defensive core though.

 

[Snuggs]

Raymond is outscoring Kucherov at the same age. Can't count on Kucherov-like exponential improvement going forward though.

Tampa is a pretty bad comparable for us either way though. I actually think we have a good shot at building a stronger defensive core though.

Kudos, you told me he could reach 90. Rooting for it to happen!

If Red Wings have a 90 point player on the team the clock should be on for everyone. Rebuild over and winning should be the main priority at all cost. 90 point players, literally, do not grow on trees. There's been a handful of Red Wings players to achieve that number in two or three decades.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

I don't see us dealing Larkin because now you are saying well we plan to tank for another 3-4 seasons, because top 30 centers don't make it to FA and are rarely dealt.

I don't think the Wings need to raze it to the ground go forward they just need to raze most of the current vets off this team. There isn't much to save this season because we didn't address the defense. With that said if Stevie decides to be aggressive you could shape this roster up pretty quickly.

This Season:
Deal Tank, Kane, Veleno, Lyon for whatever you can get at the deadline. Honestly I'd try to deal Kane even sooner, his play is just not right for this team. Fine to hold 2 mil per for Tank.

Retain on one of Copp or Compher. Assuming Copp as he has less years, but at 3 mil per for 2 years we should be able to find a buyer for him. He's a fine 3rd C for a defensive shut down role, he just isn't a scorer. We just don't need 2 of those players on the team.

Draft top end offensive player hopefully in top 5. A future Larkin replacement would be best but BPA from a forward perspective is probably necessary.

Likely Offseason:
#1 secure at least 1 if not 2 top #4 dman. I'd lean LD because you are banking on ASP joining that top 4 sooner rather than later. I'd use the plethora of mid D prospects as trade bait. Some decent UFA options, but they might price themself out of our range. We can either go big short term or get someone more mid longer. Probably going to need to make a trade here. Doesn't need to be a world beater just solid defensively to hopefully play with Seider.

Buyout Gus's last season. I'd rather hang onto Holl as the pinch 6th/7th D. He at least bring some PK ability.

Let Mott and Petry walk. If you land 2 top 4s, deal Chia but if not we're stuck for 1 more season.

Even if we say hold on to 4.5 mil to move Tank and Copp. That still gives us 24 mil (90 mil cap) to make a deal with to bring in another top 6, bottom 6, a top 4, and a bottom winger.

I mean not to say I'd do any of these, but you could sign a guy like Rantanen, Marner, Ehlers, Boeser for up to 12 mil long term. Spend up to 8 mil short term on a dman (need to have space for Ed soon). Chychrun, Pionk, Provorov, Ekblad, Pettersson. Sign someone to a 2 mil 3rd line deal and bring in a physical 4th liner even if its a Watson type.

DBC-Larkin-Ehlers (10x7) [Rantanen is my pref. but he might go for crazy high numbers]
Buch/Ammo/MBN-Kasper- Ray
Compher-Danielson-Berg or new (2)
Mazur-Rasmussen-New (1.5)

Petterson (6.5x5)-Seider
Ed- Chia
Aljo/Wally- Holl

Talbot
Cossa

It isn't a perfect lineup (still a bit small overall for my liking) but I do think it could be a competitive one. A lot more youth, speed, and even grit compared to now. It also has quite a few rookies but we've cut down the "old vets" to just Chia, Talbot, and Holl.

We can probably package one of our small winger prospects and mid range d for an upgrade as well (Not same value but: Wally, Buium, Antjo, Aljo, Buch, Ammo, Berg, DBC).

This would set us well for Ed's next deal as the Chia/Holl contracts would pay for most of that. ASP will probably join the top 4 d the following season. DBC could possibly be deal if one of the smaller guys take off besides Ray. MBN definitely joins 26/27 as well which adds a nice physical presence. Our hopeful top 5 pick joins the team. Cossa takes over as the starter.

Now you are looking at something like: 26/27

Martone-Larkin- Ehlers
MBN-Danielson/Kasper-Ray
Ras-Kasper/Danielson-Buch/ Ammo
Mazur-Compher-Savage

Now you have a really nice mix of size, skill, youth, and defensive awareness.

Petterson-Seider
Ed- ASP
Wally- UFA

Cossa
UFA/Talbot

this is a lot of words just to say, 'i think we should tank next year too'

 

[19 for president]

this is a lot of words just to say, 'i think we should tank next year too'

I don't think that roster I proposed is a tank roster. Moving Ed to the 2nd pair I think gives us a competent 2nd pair if not great. It at least gives us 2 units with dman that can complete a basic pass. Giving Seider a stay at home partner allows him to better use employ his offensive skills. If we sign a top end UFA forward that gives us a really solid 1st line. Lines 2 and 3 have a lot of skilled youth and Ray which would hopefully give us some scoring. For the 4th line hopefully we can sign a guy with a bit of physicality. We are a bit small but that is a speedy lineup that could easily do well on the rush if we have more than 1 pairing that can compete a pass.

Granted all of this also is based on us getting a competent coach that knows how to build a system around the players he has....

I mean I guess all the kids could bomb out but I think MBN, Danielson, and Buch all have a ton of potential. I could see us not making the playoffs but I think we'd at least be a bubble team. If my goal was to full tank, I'd just keep the same roster minus the UFAs and not go after guys like Ehlers, Marner, Rantanen (if they make it to the signing period).

 

[19 for president]

Kudos, you told me he could reach 90. Rooting for it to happen!

If Red Wings have a 90 point player on the team the clock should be on for everyone. Rebuild over and winning should be the main priority at all cost. 90 point players, literally, do not grow on trees. There's been a handful of Red Wings players to achieve that number in two or three decades.

Wild is that he is on pace for 84 currently with a team looking at the 6th lowest GPG in the league currently.

Its only 30 games but honestly since his tear in the 2nd half last year, he's been remarkably consistent. Goals are a little more hit or miss than I'd like, but he still puts up points even when he isn't scoring.

 

[ElProfessor]

What's next season's team going to look like...

GOAL:

Talbot, Cossa

...That's fine.

DEFENSE:

Edvinssson --- Seider
??? --- Johansson
Chiarot --- ???

(GR: Holl, Gustafsson)

...I'm all for trading Chiarot now. And I'm all for trading Holl and Gustafsson if we can do so giving up only a 3rd or less. I'll presume nothing happens here.

...ASP may be ready to take that #2 RHD spot at some point next yr. I think Wallinder probably needs another yr in GR...but he may be up eventually.

...Need to find that long-term #2 LHD. Chychrun. Pettersson. Provorov. Idk if one of them is the answer. Nor do I have any idea about the trade options. But I don't think we have time to draft and develop that answer. And this would be as good a time as any to try to find an answer.

...Need to find a 3rd pair RHD too. Solid vet on a 1yr/$1M contract shouldn't be too hard to find.

FORWARDS:

Debrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
Buchelnikov --- Danielson --- Mazur
Veleno --- Kasper --- Berggren
Rasmussen --- Compher --- Copp

(GR: Tarasenko)

...Need to get rid of Tarasenko, I'd be happy to give up a 3rd to do it. I'd be happy to give up a 2nd to get rid of Compher and/or Copp. I'd be happy to trade Ras or Veleno too. For now I won't assume anything happens.

...Buchelnikov won't be signing an AHL contract, so he'll be up. Danielson and Mazur will be ready. Maybe Lombardi will be ready at some point...maybe MBN...maybe Finnie.

...If Rantanen or Marner hit the market, you do whatever it takes. We don't need any more depth players. We have all the depth we'll need. We need elite talents.

DRAFT:

Has to be an elite scorer this yr, I think. We don't have time to draft and develop our #2 LHD. Elite scoring forward can be on the roster after one post-draft season ala Raymond. If we get a top-5 pick...Misa's my favorite.

*****

It's really not that bleak of a situation.

 

[Oddbob]

What's next season's team going to look like...

GOAL:

Talbot, Cossa

...That's fine.

DEFENSE:

Edvinssson --- Seider
??? --- Johansson
Chiarot --- ???

(GR: Holl, Gustafsson)

...I'm all for trading Chiarot now. And I'm all for trading Holl and Gustafsson if we can do so giving up only a 3rd or less. I'll presume nothing happens here.

...ASP may be ready to take that #2 RHD spot at some point next yr. I think Wallinder probably needs another yr in GR...but he may be up eventually.

...Need to find that long-term #2 LHD. Chychrun. Pettersson. Provorov. Idk if one of them is the answer. Nor do I have any idea about the trade options. But I don't think we have time to draft and develop that answer. And this would be as good a time as any to try to find an answer.

...Need to find a 3rd pair RHD too. Solid vet on a 1yr/$1M contract shouldn't be too hard to find.

FORWARDS:

Debrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
Buchelnikov --- Danielson --- Mazur
Veleno --- Kasper --- Berggren
Rasmussen --- Compher --- Copp

(GR: Tarasenko)

...Need to get rid of Tarasenko, I'd be happy to give up a 3rd to do it. I'd be happy to give up a 2nd to get rid of Compher and/or Copp. I'd be happy to trade Ras or Veleno too. For now I won't assume anything happens.

...Buchelnikov won't be signing an AHL contract, so he'll be up. Danielson and Mazur will be ready. Maybe Lombardi will be ready at some point...maybe MBN...maybe Finnie.

...If Rantanen or Marner hit the market, you do whatever it takes. We don't need any more depth players. We have all the depth we'll need. We need elite talents.

DRAFT:

Has to be an elite scorer this yr, I think. We don't have time to draft and develop our #2 LHD. Elite scoring forward can be on the roster after one post-draft season ala Raymond. If we get a top-5 pick...Misa's my favorite.

*****

It's really not that bleak of a situation.

No way 3 rookies are going to be the 2nd line. Much better chance they don't even all make the team.

 

[ElProfessor]

No way 3 rookies are going to be the 2nd line. Much better chance they don't even all make the team.

Sure. Ideally we'd sign a top-six stud and everyone would slot down.

Kasper would probably be your 2C at the start of the yr.

Etc.. etc.. etc.

Just a rough picture.

 

[Lampedampe]

What's next season's team going to look like...

GOAL:

Talbot, Cossa

...That's fine.

DEFENSE:

Edvinssson --- Seider
??? --- Johansson
Chiarot --- ???

(GR: Holl, Gustafsson)

...I'm all for trading Chiarot now. And I'm all for trading Holl and Gustafsson if we can do so giving up only a 3rd or less. I'll presume nothing happens here.

...ASP may be ready to take that #2 RHD spot at some point next yr. I think Wallinder probably needs another yr in GR...but he may be up eventually.

...Need to find that long-term #2 LHD. Chychrun. Pettersson. Provorov. Idk if one of them is the answer. Nor do I have any idea about the trade options. But I don't think we have time to draft and develop that answer. And this would be as good a time as any to try to find an answer.

...Need to find a 3rd pair RHD too. Solid vet on a 1yr/$1M contract shouldn't be too hard to find.

FORWARDS:

Debrincat --- Larkin --- Raymond
Buchelnikov --- Danielson --- Mazur
Veleno --- Kasper --- Berggren
Rasmussen --- Compher --- Copp

(GR: Tarasenko)

...Need to get rid of Tarasenko, I'd be happy to give up a 3rd to do it. I'd be happy to give up a 2nd to get rid of Compher and/or Copp. I'd be happy to trade Ras or Veleno too. For now I won't assume anything happens.

...Buchelnikov won't be signing an AHL contract, so he'll be up. Danielson and Mazur will be ready. Maybe Lombardi will be ready at some point...maybe MBN...maybe Finnie.

...If Rantanen or Marner hit the market, you do whatever it takes. We don't need any more depth players. We have all the depth we'll need. We need elite talents.

DRAFT:

Has to be an elite scorer this yr, I think. We don't have time to draft and develop our #2 LHD. Elite scoring forward can be on the roster after one post-draft season ala Raymond. If we get a top-5 pick...Misa's my favorite.

*****

It's really not that bleak of a situation.

That 3rd line looks terrible, and given how Johansson hasn't looked capable of playing 16 min a night I'm skeptical to him on the top-4.

Need a guy like Hagens to come in for this team to look competitive.

Debrincat-Larkin-Kasper
Compher-Hagens-Raymond
Rasmussen-Danielson-Tarasenko
Mazur-Copp-Veleno

Edvinsson-Seider
Pettersson-ASP*
Chiarot-Johansson/Wallinder/Buium
Holl

Gustafsson should've been banished to AHL already.

Like you said, a top-4 LHD really needs to come from the outside. Pettersson would be ideal because I don't think he'll demand too high of a cap hit, but he'll likely get long term instead.

I'd be suprised if ASP is truly ready for top-4 deployment so this is optimistic.

 

[Hobnobs]

Current wings is not unfixable but we won't improve much this season.

Next year I'm hoping for Danielson, ASP, Finnie, Buch, Kasper and Cossa taking the next step in their development. Those players are the ones I have the highest hopes for becoming core players.

As well as Wallinder/Johansson/Buium for depth

I'd like a good physical defensive winger for a nice third line.

Something like:

DeBrincat - Larkin - Raymond
Copp* - Kasper - Compher*
Copp - Danielson - Physical W
Rasmussen - Veleno - Fischer/FA/Kid

Defense

Seider - Edvinsson
and then ASP/Wallinder/Johansson/Buium etc rotating and always paired with a vet D on the other two pairings

Talbot
Cossa

* = they will be rotated out of the second line regularly for kids ready for testing on second line duty.

Copp and Compher are only there if we cant trade them.

Tarasenko, Kane, Bergqvist, Petry and Motte are let go or traded at the TDL.

 

[redwingsfannn9191]

Why veleno top line? Unless were showcasing him dont get it. Much rather try kasper on the top line and try and get our top 10 pick going and not trying to mold him into another 4th liner

Yes I know it's his rookie season but considering where we are I'd be trying to get this kid's confidence to only go up

 

[Pavels Dog]

Why veleno top line? Unless were showcasing him dont get it. Much rather try kasper on the top line and try and get our top 10 pick going and not trying to mold him into another 4th liner

Yes I know it's his rookie season but considering where we are I'd be trying to get this kid's confidence to only go up

Let McLellan experiment a bit. Just because it's not exactly how you'd do it doesn't mean it can't work.

Pretty clear they want Kasper at center btw.