How do you fix the Wings?

[HisNoodliness]

I'll be honest, a lot of guys could have similar results with the same timeline right now. I thought he was really special. Like Baseball's version of Theo Epstein. (He's still good just not like a prodigy.)

Not saying another GM would have drafted Seider, etc, etc, but team itself might be in a similar situation. His magic touch, to me, so far is getting DeBrincat/Kane/Seider.

Everything else done so far seems like any regular GM could have done going through the motions.

I think that Yzerman is arguably the best GM in the league. On the whole, I can rationally understand the moves he makes, and see a clear vision that is more or less, effectively executed. However, two failures have really dampened the results thus far.

Firstly, free agency. Yzerman has gone hard in free agency trying to supplement our young core with some reliable vets. It's been too often that these reliable vets been the anchor, dragging that young core down; too often have they been overpaid, given too much term and trade protection. Edvinsson and Berggren were kept off the team this year because of it. The few instances of "yeah that went okay" in Perron and Compher don't outweigh the, "we'd really be better off, if you would retire:" Copp, Petry, Holl, Maatta, Chiarot crew. Most of us hated most of these signings from day one too. We're always telling ourselves "let's give them a chance. They haven't even played a game yet." By my estimation, Christian Fischer is his only FA signing that's been better than I expected.

Second, drafting after the first round. His first round drafting is looking stellar. Raymond and Seider are big hits. Edvinsson seems very likely to be a hit as well. The jury is still out on Kasper, Danielson, ASP and Cossa, but all of them are performing at least on par with their draft position expectations.

However, he's yet to really hit on anyone after the first. There are definitely players with promise and it's way too early to judge a lot of the players... But we should be seeing a lot more promise in our system considering the number of picks that we have had. Yzerman has done a great job on the trade market. He's gotten us a lot of draft capital and we have used it poorly. I get that every team has their list, you probably don't want to employ a team that just follows the consensus etc. I get it.

We've consistently gone off the board, taking guys in the second that are projected to go thirty picks later, and those players have consistently lived down to expectations. What's our refrain on draft day 2 here? Something along the lines of "Oh man, bla bla blah is still on the board. And we take... Never heard of him. And Dallas takes Bla bla blah with the next pick." It's still too early to really condemn this aspect of the rebuild. A big season from someone like Mazur, Wallinder, Augustine or Lombardi could change this narrative very quickly. I'm starting to worry that we're not getting anyone that plays above the 3rd line/3rd pairing from the second onwards though.

Those are the two aspects of Yzerman's tenure that to me have been hard to defend. He's missed more often than he's hit and there just hasn't been the proper justification for half of these decisions. Besides that, I think he's done a great job. Internal Contract Negotiations: great, trades: flawless, first round drafting: great, reputation: great, personnel decisions: pretty good. If we could somehow replace Kris Draper with Al Murray and give Prashanth Iyer veto powers on any UFA signings, the team would be unstoppable.

 

[lilidk]

Should we trade for Necas? And what will be a return

 

[HisNoodliness]

Should we trade for Necas? And what will be a return

Yes. 15, Veleno or Berggren and Wallinder or AlJo (maybe more than that, but that's what I'm bringing to the table)

 

[Winger98]

Should we trade for Necas? And what will be a return

carolina fans want a goalie and/or top4 D. I think Chiarot or Walman could really fit in that deal somewhere. Not as main pieces, obviously, but they fill a need there. My impression is futures is not a big selling point for them.

And it seems Carolina fans don't see Necas as a center. At all. So he's unlikely to solve that issue for us.

 

[jkutswings]

carolina fans want a goalie and/or top4 D. I think Chiarot or Walman could really fit in that deal somewhere. Not as main pieces, obviously, but they fill a need there. My impression is futures is not a big selling point for them.

Entirely reasonable. Do you think they'd have interest in something along the lines of Rasmussen and Walman/Chiarot then (maybe with Berggren thrown in)? At least as a starting point?

And it seems Carolina fans don't see Necas as a center. At all. So he's unlikely to solve that issue for us.

Raymond-Larkin-ADB
Necas-Danielson-X
Kasper-Compher-Mazur

Sure, it'll take some time for the kids to grow into their roles. But if they can add Necas this summer and find a decent free agent for X either this year or next year, then it's a top 9 that can do some damage at both ends of the ice.

 

[Winger98]

Entirely reasonable. Do you think they'd have interest in something along the lines of Rasmussen and Walman/Chiarot then (maybe with Berggren thrown in)? At least as a starting point?


Raymond-Larkin-ADB
Necas-Danielson-X
Kasper-Compher-Mazur

Sure, it'll take some time for the kids to grow into their roles. But if they can add Necas this summer and find a decent free agent for X either this year or next year, then it's a top 9 that can do some damage at both ends of the ice.

that's the deal that keeps coming to my mind, but I have no idea what they'd think of it. Part of me feels like we're getting the better player by far, which makes me think that I'm either offering way too little or I'm overvaluing Necas.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Idk, a "Serious Over pay" is a bit much, and idk what world Jake Walman is better than Sean Walker or worth a 1st round pick... But Ehlers is only on 1 year, I can understand not wanting to trade for a guy on a 1 year. Wings would only be moving down like 18 spots or so in the draft, trading a guy you have to resign, and trading a defenseman who fell out of favor in the playoff push.

Walman, 1st rounder... Idk, I'd guess you were high and also, what the heck? We're all ready to be sellers next year before it even starts...? Pathetic.

I get that the team needs 2 top 6 wingers, but you don’t gut good defensemen from the team to do it. The team scored over 270 goals last year. 13 players on the team with double digits in goals. What it needs most is defense. Transition ability. D-zone Puck retrieval. Being able to hold the offensive blue line against dump attempts. Mobility when defending the rush. Detroit’s defense save for 2 guys couldn’t do all of these things. Walman was one of them. Stop trying to trade him.

 

[Oddbob]

I get that the team needs 2 top 6 wingers, but you don’t gut good defensemen from the team to do it. The team scored over 270 goals last year. 13 players on the team with double digits in goals. What it needs most is defense. Transition ability. D-zone Puck retrieval. Being able to hold the offensive blue line against dump attempts. Mobility when defending the rush. Detroit’s defense save for 2 guys couldn’t do all of these things. Walman was one of them. Stop trying to trade him.

While we scored a lot this year, I don't think this team is capable of doing that on a year to year basis. I think a good number of guys shot a lot better than normal and next season the lesser known goal guys will return to normal. Kind of like Seattle had lots of goals last year and this year they weren't as good. Seattle went from 289 to 214 and I think we could see a similar type thing if we don't acquire some better players.

Defence is definitely the first thing that needs major attention, but we still need at least one more actual top 6 player. Right now we have what I call replaceable second liners, that should be 3rd liners. Compher, Perron level etc. Perron I hope isn't back, because Lalonde will just keep chucking him over the boards at 5 on 5 when he is basically useless aside from bad penalties and stupid plays.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

While we scored a lot this year, I don't think this team is capable of doing that on a year to year basis. I think a good number of guys shot a lot better than normal and next season the lesser known goal guys will return to normal. Kind of like Seattle had lots of goals last year and this year they weren't as good. Seattle went from 289 to 214 and I think we could see a similar type thing if we don't acquire some better players.

Defence is definitely the first thing that needs major attention, but we still need at least one more actual top 6 player. Right now we have what I call replaceable second liners, that should be 3rd liners. Compher, Perron level etc. Perron I hope isn't back, because Lalonde will just keep chucking him over the boards at 5 on 5 when he is basically useless aside from bad penalties and stupid plays.

Seattle also lost a lot of their goal scorers and didn’t replace them. Something like 50+ goals left that roster with very little replacement.

If Detroit does that next year that’s on Yzerman for not addressing roster concerns. This Detroit team should be scoring 240+ without Ghost, Kane and Sprong by only internally replacing them. Give the team decent external replacements and I think they could be 255+ and a top 16 offense.

Their minutes could go to other guys who may not have the same p/60 but provide better 5v5 and defensive metrics and I’d consider it a net positive.

 

[Snuggs]

Seattle also lost a lot of their goal scorers and didn’t replace them. Something like 50+ goals left that roster with very little replacement.

If Detroit does that next year that’s on Yzerman for not addressing roster concerns. This Detroit team should be scoring 240+ without Ghost, Kane and Sprong by only internally replacing them. Give the team decent external replacements and I think they could be 255+ and a top 16 offense.

Their minutes could go to other guys who may not have the same p/60 but provide better 5v5 and defensive metrics and I’d consider it a net positive.

Why would you think that with two of our top PP producers leaving wouldn't change things, when the Wings had a top PP in the league, helping result in those high goal totals. Also, they had one of the best shooting percentages in the entire league, not sure they'll replicate that either. Sprong was nifty playing low minutes with unsusally high goals.

They aren't going to suddenly out pace teams that were already better than them last year.

Why would anyone care what you think's a net positive? Does it result in actual wins? I'll agree if the records better.

I'm not going to argue against getting better defensemen, Red Wings need them, but Walman, imo, is so average you can literally go sign a guy better than him to play with Seider. He played high minutes and was very pedestrian. (Does not mean he's bad either.) I'm also not against keeping him, trading other defensemen like Maata but idk how much value he has compared to Walman in a trade. I'm certainly not like, trying to "push" Walman out.

I also don't care that bad... Lol, Ehlers is just a story right now so I thought I'd bring his name up cause draft night he might be in play for teams.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

The team needs so many elements SY can't possibly address them all in one offseason...

But the top 3 needs to be improved with SE as 1 of those 3 and Seider another..

The top 6 needs a significant injection of skill and proven NHL scoring to go along with Ray, Larkin, Debrincat and Compher.

The 4th line needs a significant injection of grit

We need a legit #1 goalie tollCosaa is ready

How he addresses these needs will go a long way to the teams immediate and long-term success

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

carolina fans want a goalie and/or top4 D. I think Chiarot or Walman could really fit in that deal somewhere. Not as main pieces, obviously, but they fill a need there. My impression is futures is not a big selling point for them.

And it seems Carolina fans don't see Necas as a center. At all. So he's unlikely to solve that issue for us.

Is Necas a SY type of player and if so, does he provide an element we don't already have in our top 6?

I think both answers have to be yes before SY even considers moving out quality assets for..

Personally I'd prefer paying Guentzel the cap that both he and Necas will command and move assets to address other needs(Top 3 dman and a goalie)...

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm not going to argue against getting better defensemen, Red Wings need them, but Walman, imo, is so average you can literally go sign a guy better than him to play with Seider. He played high minutes and was very pedestrian.

Who do you suggest?

This stuff is said every year, and this year isn't even a good FA class. If we want a legitimate top line d-man to pair with Seider we need to trade for it.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Who do you suggest?

This stuff is said every year, and this year isn't even a good FA class. If we want a legitimate top line d-man to pair with Seider we need to trade for it.

Agreed. Then GM's pay UFA prices to bring guys in and people complain they're overpaid.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Why would you think that with two of our top PP producers leaving wouldn't change things, when the Wings had a top PP in the league, helping result in those high goal totals. Also, they had one of the best shooting percentages in the entire league, not sure they'll replicate that either. Sprong was nifty playing low minutes with unsusally high goals.

They aren't going to suddenly out pace teams that were already better than them last year.

Why would anyone care what you think's a net positive? Does it result in actual wins? I'll agree if the records better.

I'm not going to argue against getting better defensemen, Red Wings need them, but Walman, imo, is so average you can literally go sign a guy better than him to play with Seider. He played high minutes and was very pedestrian. (Does not mean he's bad either.) I'm also not against keeping him, trading other defensemen like Maata but idk how much value he has compared to Walman in a trade. I'm certainly not like, trying to "push" Walman out.

I also don't care that bad... Lol, Ehlers is just a story right now so I thought I'd bring his name up cause draft night he might be in play for teams.

The wings power play was better without Kane.

Also most if not all of Ghost’s pp production can be replaced by Mo on the top pairing. He can do 25+ assists on the PP. he had 19 as a rookie and 14 the last two years with mostly pp2 minutes and deployment.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

The wings power play was better without Kane.

Also most if not all of Ghost’s pp production can be replaced by Mo on the top pairing. He can do 25+ assists on the PP. he had 19 as a rookie and 14 the last two years with mostly pp2 minutes and deployment.

think we made an avatar bet on zadinas season at the start of the year if you wanna cast that in. Pretty sure you won

 

[OneMoreTry]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5475246/2024/05/10/quentin-grimes-tyler-myers-mom-nba-nhl/

Maybe we can add Myers, if the Pistons extend Grimes.

 

[Winger98]

Is Necas a SY type of player and if so, does he provide an element we don't already have in our top 6?

I think both answers have to be yes before SY even considers moving out quality assets for..

Personally I'd prefer paying Guentzel the cap that both he and Necas will command and move assets to address other needs(Top 3 dman and a goalie)...

in a bubble, I'd prefer Guentzel, too. And using those trade assets to better our blueline and goalie. At the same time, the age difference is significant. Might really like Guentzel more now, but in four years he'll be 33 and Necas is still in his 20s. I think the answer is that we're not going to see all off these issues fixed this summer and while I'd like Necas (and Guentzel), I'd really like to see our blueline fixed up more.

 

[Winger98]

Agreed. Then GM's pay UFA prices to bring guys in and people complain they're overpaid.

yeah, we might be able to get someone equivalent to Walman in free agency but we're not getting them for $3.4 million. We dip into ufa for Roy, then dip into trades to get that LD to pair with Seider and then start spinning off the extra D to fill other holes.

 

[raymond23]

I would give up quite a bit for Necas

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

yeah, we might be able to get someone equivalent to Walman in free agency but we're not getting them for $3.4 million. We dip into ufa for Roy, then dip into trades to get that LD to pair with Seider and then start spinning off the extra D to fill other holes.

Does Walman even exist at this point? I remember hearing about some vague injury. Then he's out of the lineup for weeks and weeks. Then as far as I know he hasn't been seen or heard from since.

It's like the griddy police came and abducted him.

 

[norrisnick]

He was on the Expected by Whom podcast this week.

 

[jkutswings]

I would give up quite a bit for Necas

Up until today I would have agreed. Now I'm not sure. Sounds like he has the unfortunate affliction of being a winger that thinks he's a center (and thinks he should get paid like a center).

Carolina fans claim he's horrendous at the dot and sometimes his skates move faster than his brain. So I'd send out some back channel communications to confirm whether he'd be ok with being a very good 2W. If he can live with that, then sure - he would probably make a fantastic long term pair with Danielson. Trade or just outright offer sheet him. But I'm not interested in bringing in a guy if he wants Larkin money to play like Ehlers.

 

[19 for president]

Walman is a decent top 4 at a good cap hit. With us being in a cap crunch I don't see the need to replace him unless a really good oportunity comes along. At his cap hit I think he'd be a decent asset in a trade.

I see our top needs as:
1. Top 4 partner for Ed that allows us to take some of the defensive matchups from Seider. Roy would probably be a good fit at maybe 4x5. He has the MI ties and I think Pesce is going to get too much.
2A. (Tie) Starting goalie. Gibson and Markstrom are probably the best targets but I don't want to give up a 1st for either. I'd rather go Lyon/Reimer next year. Husso should be LTIR'd if possible or bought out. His buyout saves us over 3 mil next season and only costs 1.5 dead the following for 1 season. I see us running back Lyon/Reimer as I think the asking price for the vets will be too high.
2B. (Tie) Top 6 forward ideally with some grit or at minimum has to create their own offense. We are far too small upfront and lack play drivers outside of Larks and Ray. We need someone that can put up 20-25 gritty goals and help our board game. Kane isn't the right fit for this team offensively if we hope to make the playoffs. I'm ok using our 1st to address this issue.
3. Trade Maata, Buyout Holl, Trade Fabbri.

I fully expect this team to take a step back offensively but take a step forward defensively.

DBC-Larkin-New Guy (20 min)
Ray (8x 7.5)-Danielson-Ras (15min)
Fisher (1x 1.5)-Copp-Compher (15 min)
Mazur-UFA-Perron (1x2) (10 min)

Seider (8x8.25)- Walman
Roy (5x5)- Ed
Aljo (2x1)-Chiarot
Petry

Lyon
Reimer (1x1.5)

That leaves us with 11 mil to fill 2 spots or if you can figure out a way to upgrade the goalie probably and don't resign Reimer 12.5 to fill 3. You could do 6.5 (using gibson sal) goalie, 5 forward, 1 4th line center. Or if we keep the goalies then you could do up to 9mil for a forward and 2 mil for your 4th line center. You could also do a bonus for Perron and squeek out even more cap.

Any good 4th line centers with an above average faceoff percentage avail?

New Guy (Toffoli, Buchnevich, Reinhart (prob too expensive), Bertuzzi, Pavelski (if Dal loses their minds), maybe others not yet known to be avail.)

I actually rather like that lineup. We incorporate 4 young guys in Ed, Aljo, Mazur, and Danielson. Kasper is 1st forward callup but gets to continue to push his offensive game in GR.

Fabbri (1 mil ret), Maata, Veleno, and Berggren are traded. Husso and Holl are bought out.

Compher and Danielson are 2a/2b with one getting primarily offensive starts and the other getting a shut down role. So Danielson isn't getting thrown fully to the wolves right away, but I feel him having a Larkin/Ray type rookie year and making the team.

 

[Snuggs]

The wings power play was better without Kane.

Also most if not all of Ghost’s pp production can be replaced by Mo on the top pairing. He can do 25+ assists on the PP. he had 19 as a rookie and 14 the last two years with mostly pp2 minutes and deployment.

I doubt it, but we'll see if Yzerman even lets him have the opportunity.

think we made an avatar bet on zadinas season at the start of the year if you wanna cast that in. Pretty sure you won

Don't feed his ego... Just say Filip Hronek.