How do you fix the Wings?

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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What's the best pick you'd be willing to attach to Petry, Holl, Chiarot and Maatta to move them?

I think I'd trade a 3rd to move Petry, a 2nd to move Holl or Chiarot and a 4th to move Maatta.

I'd prefer to get rid of two of them, but I think one is absolutely necessary.

Also, what happens to the cap when a player is taken off the team for a non-play suspension? Obviously it's the kind of thing that just couldn't happen. But in theory could we get Lindstrom to pull Petry aside "hey I used to use steroids to keep my body in shape as I got older, wanna try some?" with the guys for the random screening waiting down the hall
Why would the Wings want to give up assets to move Chiarot, let alone a 2nd round pick? Or even Maatta for that matter?

Though I could see Maatta being packaged in a trade. But the intention not being simply to move him.
 
So hear me out lol. I think our only other good option next year in that spot is Compher. They aren't going to start Mazur there and have two rookies on the line. We don't want Perron there because at this point he should be a PP specialist or late game offensive start guy.

I voted Ras over Compher because I did not love Comphers chemistry with Ray last season, and he'll be driving that line. I also like Ras's net front and board game better than Compher whose game is more in the mid ground. The idea behind the line is not dump and chase but possesion. Ras' skating prevents him from being an elite forechecker but if Ray/Danielson can get the puck in he is great at eating the puck along the boards in a cycle. This frees up Ray and Danielson to skate and get into good spots. Then you stick the slab that is Ras in front of the net and cause chaos while Ray and Danielson work. I am really hoping with a healthier offseason Ras can work and show up more like how he ended the 22/23 season. He needs to get his skating back up to that level. Plus I think Copp/Compher gives us a really solid shut down line with Fish.

To be clear I think Mazur and Kasper will replace Ras in a top 6 role pretty quickly but for the short term I think he is at least worth trying there.
1st and 3rd paragraph agree.

2nd paragraph just fuels my deep seeded disdain for Moose's unwilligness/incapability to be at least hammer and anvil for his team.
 

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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Why would the Wings want to give up assets to move Chiarot, let alone a 2nd round pick? Or even Maatta for that matter?

Though I could see Maatta being packaged in a trade. But the intention not being simply to move him.

more to the point, I don't think the Wings would have to sweeten the pot to move either of them. There are always teams looking for blueline help. If we are in a position to start dealing from a surplus, there will be takers.

1st and 3rd paragraph agree.

2nd paragraph just fuels my deep seeded disdain for Moose's unwilligness/incapability to be at least hammer and anvil for his team.

I'd just move Compher to 2c, Ras to 3w, and move Danielson to 2w. Danielson could learn from Compher while having Ray on the line to play catch with. We already know Fischer/Copp/Ras can function as a 3rd line. Or you can bump fischer and put Mazur/Kaspar there.
 

HisNoodliness

The Karate Kid and ASP Kai
Jun 29, 2014
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Why would the Wings want to give up assets to move Chiarot, let alone a 2nd round pick? Or even Maatta for that matter?

Though I could see Maatta being packaged in a trade. But the intention not being simply to move him.
We need to open up space on our blue line for Edvinsson, Johansson and honestly, a potential upgrade. I evaluate all 4 (Holl, Petry, Chiarot and Maatta) as being effectively useless. Chiarot was a lot better this year-as long as we sheltered him more than a rookie stepping onto NHL ice for the first time.

Chiarot has 2 years and a M-NTC so he'd be the most costly to move. I have a hard time seeing anyone with a brain taking him for a third, and he should be able to block trades to the true bottom feeders that couldn't care less about the cap dump as long as they get a pick out of it. Maatta is the one I'd like to move least as I think he's arguably the best defenseman on the team (outside of Walman and Seider), and only has this year on his deal.
 
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Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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What's the best pick you'd be willing to attach to Petry, Holl, Chiarot and Maatta to move them?

I think I'd trade a 3rd to move Petry, a 2nd to move Holl or Chiarot and a 4th to move Maatta.

I'd prefer to get rid of two of them, but I think one is absolutely necessary.

Also, what happens to the cap when a player is taken off the team for a non-play suspension? Obviously it's the kind of thing that just couldn't happen. But in theory could we get Lindstrom to pull Petry aside "hey I used to use steroids to keep my body in shape as I got older, wanna try some?" with the guys for the random screening waiting down the hall

Maatta would bring a 3rd or 4th, not cost us anything to move.

We need to open up space on our blue line for Edvinsson, Johansson and honestly, a potential upgrade. I evaluate all 4 (Holl, Petry, Chiarot and Maatta) as being effectively useless. Chiarot was a lot better this year-as long as we sheltered him more than a rookie stepping onto NHL ice for the first time.

Chiarot has 2 years and a M-NTC so he'd be the most costly to move. I have a hard time seeing anyone with a brain taking him for a third, and he should be able to block trades to the true bottom feeders that couldn't care less about the cap dump as long as they get a pick out of it. Maatta is the one I'd like to move least as I think he's arguably the best defenseman on the team (outside of Walman and Seider), and only has this year on his deal.

Maatta is an excellent 3rd pair option, not sure why everyone wants him gone. He babysat Ghost all year and did quite well. You aren't getting any better option to play 5-6 in the cap world.
 

jkutswings

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Jul 10, 2014
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Do you honestly want any of those four on your second pairing?
That's a very different question than whether they each have zero use.

Chiarot is fine as a 4/5 guy.

Maatta is tolerable on the third pair, but I'd rather move him and let a kid learn.

Petry alternates between decent third pairing play and awful mistakes. Assuming he has negligible trade value, he'd be fine as a seventh defenseman keeping the press box warm.

Holl has zero use. 'Bye Felicia.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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We need to open up space on our blue line for Edvinsson, Johansson and honestly, a potential upgrade. I evaluate all 4 (Holl, Petry, Chiarot and Maatta) as being effectively useless. Chiarot was a lot better this year-as long as we sheltered him more than a rookie stepping onto NHL ice for the first time.

Chiarot has 2 years and a M-NTC so he'd be the most costly to move. I have a hard time seeing anyone with a brain taking him for a third, and he should be able to block trades to the true bottom feeders that couldn't care less about the cap dump as long as they get a pick out of it. Maatta is the one I'd like to move least as I think he's arguably the best defenseman on the team (outside of Walman and Seider), and only has this year on his deal.

I strongly disagree with your analysis of Chiarot and Maatta. Maatta was sheltered, as he should be for a bottom pairing. He is in no way the third best Dman on the team.

In TOI/GP Chiarot was second only to Seider. Chiarot led the team in Even Strength TOI/GP. He was 3rd in PK time behind Seider and Walman, and second when Walman went down. In the last few games when there were crucial PK's it was Seider and Chiarot out there clearing the crease and blocking shots.

In what way was that "sheltered more than a rookie stepping onto the ice for the first time?"

Chiarot is signed for 2 more seasons for a reasonable AAV and is a good Dman. He also happens to be one of the Wings only physical Dmen. Short of packaging him in a trade that improves the Wings, giving up assets to move him doesn't make any sense.

Do you honestly want any of those four on your second pairing?

Yes. Chiarot for sure.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

Riccis per 60 record holder
Feb 29, 2020
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What's the best pick you'd be willing to attach to Petry, Holl, Chiarot and Maatta to move them?

I think I'd trade a 3rd to move Petry, a 2nd to move Holl or Chiarot and a 4th to move Maatta.

I'd prefer to get rid of two of them, but I think one is absolutely necessary.

Also, what happens to the cap when a player is taken off the team for a non-play suspension? Obviously it's the kind of thing that just couldn't happen. But in theory could we get Lindstrom to pull Petry aside "hey I used to use steroids to keep my body in shape as I got older, wanna try some?" with the guys for the random screening waiting down the hall

Maatta is worth a pick back. There’s no need to pay to dump him.

Holl should be traded with a pick. And Petry can LITRetire. Then Detroit can go about improving D personnel.
 

dalem177

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Oct 4, 2021
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Chiarot is signed for 2 more seasons for a reasonable AAV and is a good Dman. He also happens to be one of the Wings only physical Dmen.
A thousand times yes. It's like Benny and Mo are the only ones who think they should be clearing the crease. Everyone else, even the guys I like, treat each game like graduation day from finishing school. I should do a bad pic of everyone with a stack of books on their head...
 
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19 for president

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Maatta is worth a pick back. There’s no need to pay to dump him.

Holl should be traded with a pick. And Petry can LITRetire. Then Detroit can go about improving D personnel.
I agree we shouldn't have to pay picks to dump Maata. At most we'd have to retain up to 1 mil in salary. He's a solid if unspectacular bottom pair dman.

Holl I don't think people take even with a pick unless we also eat salary. Eating a mil and a 3rd is probably better than buying him out. At least when his contract expires we'd be done with his cap hit that way.

Petry is probably our 7th. No one is trading for him until maybe the deadline (if he'd agree to it then) and buyout makes little sense cause we only save like 700k.

Agree with those above saying Chia is our best physical dman. He is good enough that I don't want to pay to dump him. Until Seider and Ed come into their own physically he is our best crease clearer. Again if we can knock him down to 3rd pair, I think a lot of people would like his game more.
 

19 for president

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Apr 28, 2002
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The odds of them starting Danielson as 2C without a legit NHL center like Compher there to split faceoffs with and carry some defensive responsibilities are minimal.
I don't disagree with this if Danielson struggles at faceoffs, but with that said Compher actually struggled last year at the dot with only a 44.8%. Ras was actually a bit higher at 48.6 although he obviously took a lot less faceoffs so I kind of take that with a grain of salt.

I get what you are saying though so I could totally see them switching Ras and Compher. Even if we switch the two though, I think I'd still like them to try Danielson at center have Compher at wing. He plays a true centers game and the faster he develops there at an NHL level the better off the Wings are. If he struggles then move him to wing, but he plays a very mature pro game.
 

norrisnick

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If Kasper and Danielson make the jump, pair them with Compher and Copp for the middle 6 lines. Handedness wise it's probably best to go lefty/righty so you always have the preferred handedness out there. Lean on the kids for center as much as you can but swap to wing if need be.

Berggren - Compher/Kasper
Ras - Copp/Danielson
 

sepster

Gerard Gallant is my Spirit Animal
Aug 19, 2005
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So hear me out lol. I think our only other good option next year in that spot is Compher. They aren't going to start Mazur there and have two rookies on the line. We don't want Perron there because at this point he should be a PP specialist or late game offensive start guy.

I voted Ras over Compher because I did not love Comphers chemistry with Ray last season, and he'll be driving that line. I also like Ras's net front and board game better than Compher whose game is more in the mid ground. The idea behind the line is not dump and chase but possesion. Ras' skating prevents him from being an elite forechecker but if Ray/Danielson can get the puck in he is great at eating the puck along the boards in a cycle. This frees up Ray and Danielson to skate and get into good spots. Then you stick the slab that is Ras in front of the net and cause chaos while Ray and Danielson work. I am really hoping with a healthier offseason Ras can work and show up more like how he ended the 22/23 season. He needs to get his skating back up to that level. Plus I think Copp/Compher gives us a really solid shut down line with Fish.

To be clear I think Mazur and Kasper will replace Ras in a top 6 role pretty quickly but for the short term I think he is at least worth trying there.

I don't see any reality where Rasmussen "is great at eating pucks along the boards in a cycle," Every single time the puck is on Rasmussen's stick a timer starts in my head for when he's going to bobble it off his stick or get pushed over by a player 6" shorter than him.

EDIT: The coaching staff and management like Rasmussen because he does really care and he puts in the work. On the flip side, he frustrates the coaching staff because playing big and mean is not in his nature and he doesn't really embrace that role.

For me, if he's not playing big and mean and using his unique (at least on this team) size, then I have no use for the guy because his skating, hands, and hockey IQ are below average to the point that if he were Czarnik's size, he'd be down in GR. His size is the only thing that gives him a shot in the NHL, yet he refuses to accept that and play accordingly. That is doubly frustrating because the Wings sorely lack and exceedingly NEED a bigger, meaner, and more physical element to their game. He could provide that but chooses not to.
 
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norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
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I don't see any reality where Rasmussen "is great at eating pucks along the boards in a cycle," Every single time the puck is on Rasmussen's stick a timer starts in my head for when he's going to bobble it off his stick or get pushed over by a player 6" shorter than him.

EDIT: The coaching staff and management like Rasmussen because he does really care and he puts in the work. On the flip side, he frustrates the coaching staff because playing big and mean is not in his nature and he doesn't really embrace that role.

For me, if he's not playing big and mean and using his unique (at least on this team) size, then I have no use for the guy because his skating, hands, and hockey IQ are below average to the point that if he were Czarnik's size, he'd be down in GR. His size is the only thing that gives him a shot in the NHL, yet he refuses to accept that and play accordingly. That is doubly frustrating because the Wings sorely lack and exceedingly NEED a bigger, meaner, and more physical element to their game. He could provide that but chooses not to.
This is a failure of arrogance by various team's management and coaching staffs. The old "we can fix him" trope.

There are several key attributes in players. Some can be improved somewhat easily.

Some can be improved with great difficulty.

Some can't be improved at all. Personality fits here. This would include such things as drive, aggressiveness, competitiveness, etc... You can act against type to some extent, but push comes to shove you will be who you are.

The history of the league is littered with big bodies that teams thought they could mold into mean MFs. At least teams have sort of figured out that big guys still need to be able to skate and hold a stick at the same time. Baby steps...
 

sepster

Gerard Gallant is my Spirit Animal
Aug 19, 2005
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Rather than “Fix” anything, they need to keep moving forward. Last year for example, they acquired all those Dmen to make sure they had NHL players every night. This year it’ll be the next step. We’re already hearing the Maatta speculation, and we can imagine we’ll hear it with Walman and Holl too.

The next step is “fine tuning the roster” some. So when the kids start coming up 1 by 1, there’s somewhat of a strategy.

Let’s start with the blue line.

They really are only guaranteeing spots to Seider, Chiarot, Edvinsson and Petry.

That’s their Top 4 today, as it was at season’s end. They’ll be looking to add two very good players to play in their Top 4, and have Chiarot and Petry be their bottom pairing.

Let’s get the Jake Walman thing out of the way. It’s hard to argue he wasn’t atrocious most of the season, and when he returned from his injury April 1, let’s just say it wasn’t Lalonde’s decision to stop him from returning to the Top 4. When Lalonde then scratched Maatta and put him on the bottom pairing, it didn’t take a period before it was obvious Maatta was gonna be the better option for the season’s duration, and Lalonde wasn’t gonna put his job on the line by continuing to force Walman into the lineup. That was a good decision and should’ve been made in January.

Walman was benched. That’s just the truth of it. Seider just couldn’t continue to spend half of his ice time, chasing down Walman’s unforced errors. He went back to being exactly what he was before he came to Detroit, and they just couldn’t afford to have him playing such important minutes anymore.

He’s NOT in their plans. If he somehow remains on the roster, it’ll be because they couldn’t make some things happen this summer, but he’ll be a bottom pairing or scratched Dman, until he earns his way back into the rotation.

So they’re gonna try parting ways with Maatta, Walman and Holl, and that shouldn’t be too difficult. Even Holl can likely be traded. Worse case they buy him out, or retain a million, but they’ll be able to get rid of him too. Walman will have some value because of the way he played his contract year. My guess is, he’s included in a trade for a dman or goalie, but we’ll have to wait and see.

Hearing Maatta could be headed to Utah for one of their 3rd Rd picks btw, and will likely be the first of the 3 to go, because they know they’ll get something in return, and he has no trade protection. Obviously they have to be careful not to dump all 3 before they are able to get the guys they want. So just know, if their plans come together on the blue line, those 3 will be gone.

Gostisbehere will be resigned “IF” he doesn’t get a big deal somewhere else “AND” if they don’t fine tune BOTH spots in their Top 4 via trade/UFA.

Right now Johansson is likely penciled in as their 6/7 and he will split time with Petry the most. Exactly why he’s been playing the right side almost exclusively (in GR) lately. Don’t be surprised if they try his speed and smarts, playing some with Seider too, depending on what happens this summer.

They’re going to try again, to trade for a Top 4 dman, and we’ll get to that, but their #1 target on defense this summer, looks like it’ll be Matt Roy from the Kings.

Go figure, another Detroit kid, who grew up playing for Victory Honda and wants to come home.. If he’s brought in, it’ll be to be Edvinsson’s partner moving forward. He’s the perfect partner for him too. He can carry a pairing, but he knows what he is. A great role playing Dman in the Top 4. Makes the right play consistently, and has proven he can play Top 4 minutes for a few years now. He’s been the Kings #3 for the past several years. But, if they do need him to carry that 3rd pairing, he can do it as well.

If he makes it to July 1, he’ll be the target. Maybe even beforehand, in a trade to secure his rights. He will be heavily sought after, but looks like he wants to come to Detroit. Don’t think they’ll overpay for him though. So we shall see, but good bet Matt Roy ends up in Detroit.

So basically they’ll be…

Open/Seider
Edvinsson/Roy
Chiarot/Petry (Johansson)

Now comes the wildcard. Still hearing they want to hammer down their Top 4 for the next 5 years at least. That it’s their goal to have a legit Top 4, penciled in for 4-5 years. No more Walman fiascos, or relying so much on a Petry. Chiarot can do it with Seider, as he showed the last 20 games, but they’d prefer him and Petry being their bottom pairing.

Who’s available via trade?? More than likely Shea Theodore will be the big prize at the draft. Would they trade the 15th pick in a deal for him? I bet they would quite easily. It will cost more than that, but that pick is in play for a dman or goalie.

So you’d have..

Theodore/Seider
Edvinsson/Roy
Chiarot/Petry (Johansson)

That not only becomes a pretty formidable D-Core overnight, the goal will also be… to have vets start falling off the roster every year, to be replaced by another one of their youngsters. Next year Petry, then Chiarot, and so on.

They can also always move Roy or Theodore around too. They’ve both played both sides quite a bit over the years. If ASP or Gibson is so good they demand to be in the Top 4, Roy can move down for example.

If they CAN’T get a Dman via trade, or even signing a second UFA to a short term deal, then they’ll likely bring Ghost back. If they sign him before July 1, that means they don’t see a trade coming together. Ghost did play very well during a stretch early in the season with Seider. So that’s an option, but if Ghost is that 6th Dman, good bet they’ll keep Chiarot with Seider, as they ended the season, and Ghost will play with Petry and Johansson.

Moving forward though, that’s what they’ll try doing. To fine tune their roster, and make it easier to have kids coming up, but always having those Top 4 players over the next 5 years. No more experiments like Jake Walman in one of those spots.

How would a trade for Theodore work? 15th overall, Wallinder, Walman. Something like that. Could they keep the 15th and still get Theodore? Sure.

One other thing of note. Don’t be surprised if Yzerman goes big on a goaltender this summer. With Augustine and Cossa approaching their push towards the NHL, he’s not gonna play games in net anymore. I’d almost bet, Markstrom, Saros or Gibson is their starting goaltender next year. No more hoping signings work out. They’re gonna have to secure a legit goalie.

So it’s time for the fine tuning, to take that next step in the standings, as the kids start making their way onto the roster. Much like Dallas did. Good bet Mazur and Danielson or Kasper is on the opening night roster. Think Berggren will be somewhere else next season. Be surprised if he’s still a Red Wing.

Up front, I’m not sure they’re signing Kane or not. I got nothing from nobody on that. If he wants 3 years, I think they have to walk away, and that was the speculation recently.. I do think they’ll talk to Stamkos, Lindholm, Stephenson and Monahan. Could see them sign Marchessault or another wing if Kane leaves, but the one guy who makes the most sense up front? Like it or not, it’s probably Sean Monahan. Only if it’s cost effective though. There’s gonna be plenty of options to do some things this summer, but they will be careful knowing Danielson and Kasper are developing like they are.

Have heard Rasmussen could be in play. First time I’ve ever heard anyone speculate on that. Not that they’re down on him, but seen how they played without him down the stretch, and if they can use him to get a goaltender or a Shea Theodore, that he’d likely be available now.

So first things first. Slam dunk the blue line and the net. Forwards are a dime a dozen really. Much easier to go get whenever you need one. Yzerman is gonna have to be aggressive. Not only to get players, but to get rid of some as well.

Big off-season coming.

I hadn't read your post before I posted mine below, but I've heard the same thing regarding Walman being on the out. He didn't necessarily "quit" on the team down the stretch, but he didn't endear himself to the locker room either.

Just going to add this to the conversation, talking with someone in the locker room, there were two players down the stretch that weren't perceived to be as bought in or "pulling with the rest of the team" as everyone else. Said to be not as engaged or willing to play through minor injury. Did not want to specify names. This above came from someone in the organization.

The following is my best guess, based on who was playing, who was not, and who was said to "not be their regular self," I would not be surprised if Walman is one of the players moved to alleviate some of the logjam on D.
 

Vector Cereal

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Wouldn’t mind Arvidsson on the right deal. Should get a post-injury discount and he’s still only 31 so you can give a bit of term to keep cap down. Good top 6 track record and plays a fast two-way game that should fit our style
 

lilidk

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Mar 4, 2008
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Why would the Wings want to give up assets to move Chiarot, let alone a 2nd round pick? Or even Maatta for that matter?

Though I could see Maatta being packaged in a trade. But the intention not being simply to move him.
Realistically we could trade Maatta for fourth round, but only if AJo could replace him
 
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WingsToPick4th

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Jan 5, 2020
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I’ve noticed a trend with Defensive structures of Stanley cup teams.

The top pair usually always has an offensive superstar (ex Makar, Bouchard, Heiskenen, Hughes)

The 2nd pair has very underrated jack of all trades guys who are also physical (Zadorov, Pietrangelo, Esa Lindell, Josh Manson)

The 3rd pair has massive cheap dudes who play the body and eat pucks (Tanev, Eric Jobnson, Hakanpaa, Gudas, Ian Cole)

I hope ASP can be our Makar/Hughes offensive dynamo, would be huge for us going forward
 

Snuggs

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Jun 24, 2018
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run with husso, lyon, cossa trio next year IMO
I'd do this too but... I'm not convinced Husso's back can stay healthy, I think he'll LTIR.

NOT sure, but from the "signs" I've seen when he moves/leaves the ice he's got some kind of lower disc issue... but... I've also seen guys get torn back muscles down there that cause players problems for a long time, and he's a goalie, moves a little different than normal guys so I'm sure it's easier to irritate. Zetterberg played with a rough back, but goalie again is just different movement with up down, side to side, etc.
 

SantosHalper

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I’ve noticed a trend with Defensive structures of Stanley cup teams.

The top pair usually always has an offensive superstar (ex Makar, Bouchard, Heiskenen, Hughes)

The 2nd pair has very underrated jack of all trades guys who are also physical (Zadorov, Pietrangelo, Esa Lindell, Josh Manson)

The 3rd pair has massive cheap dudes who play the body and eat pucks (Tanev, Eric Jobnson, Hakanpaa, Gudas, Ian Cole)

I hope ASP can be our Makar/Hughes offensive dynamo, would be huge for us going forward
Both Oilers and Rangers have 3 LHDs and 3 RHDs, Florida & Dallas have 4 LHDs and 2 RHDs
 
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