How do you fix the Wings?

[norrisnick]

I think the odds of Berggren being able to match the on-ice product of Ehlers despite playing a similar style game is very low.

I get that Berggren is cheap and you can plug him in and hope for the best. But I would much rather flip him for a proven commodity like Ehlers. If you want to make the hope play, I get it. I am just not as optimistic as you are it would work out so well. If it did I would not be mad. Would prefer to have cheap homegrown productive players, if possible. I just think it's more likely that Berggren is still spending this much time in the AHL at 23 because he's not as good as people think as opposed to better than everyone thinks. And same thing with Johansson. But again, we will find out soon enough.

No. Burgers has been in the AHL this long because for whatever reason this franchise thinks it will implode into a death spiral if an offense only kid plays on a scoring line. That's where offense only kids thrive. On scoring lines. You see it all over the league. Kids that need a gps to find their own zone on scoring lines dropping 50-60 points and then a few years later Wing fans are drooling over "proven" scorers that are just as flawed as kids here that never got the same opportunities.

See Zegras, Trevor.

 

[Oddbob]

And Maatta? His two goto moves are wide shots from an angle that kills the momentum with the puck going back to our zone, or a shot that is blocked that leads to a rush the other way. Strongly disagree that Maatta is better than Chiarot.

Maatta moves the puck much less than Chiarot and plays within his abilities. Chiarot does not.

Cuz he was arguably behind the worst defense and had close to, if not the highest SV% against high danger chances. Quality of shots matters here. Flames were bleeding prime time opportunities every game. Lyon behind that defense would prob have been like .890.

For most of the year their blueline was far better than ours. Especially the top 4.

 

[13to40]

Agreed. I hated him the 1st season but this season he simplified his game and looked much better. If we can get him down to the bottom pair, be a primary pker, and have his main goal be knocking people in front of the net down, I'm good with it. He's still overpaid and signed for too long, but getting into a role where he looks good might allow us to trade him if Buium, Wally, etc look like they should be brought up the following season.

I actually think him and Aljo could make a really good bottom pair because Aljo plays a very smooth simple game, and Chia does best when he isn't overthinking the game.

I would also be fine with a Maata/ Aljo bottom pair if Stevie can deal Chia but I don't think that is likely. I don't think Maata looked nearly as good with Ghost as he did Hronek. He often struggled to get pucks out of the zone last year, and couldn't connect on a pass at all. He started to look better towards the end of the season but we haven't seen pre-illness level Maata since he got sick.

Wings primary goal needs to be to clear two dman off the roster minimum. Then they need to find Ed a capable partner. I'm good trying Walman with Seider again next year with the understanding that they aren't getting the hardest minutes in the league. Even Seider isn't that level of dman, so thinking Walman is going to look good in that situation is a bit much.

I am also good with dealing Wally and getting Seider a true partner if a good deal is out there, but I am less concerned about this than other holes. We really just need one true top 4 dman to pair with Ed. Seider can pull Wally along for another year so long as they aren't only getting top end defensive matchups.

I think in a perfect world we have Walman traded for a 2/3rd at the draft. He has the most trade value of the group.
Holl nobody will touch with a 10’ stick unless he’s packaged with a sweetener. Maata can probably be moved away for a minimal return.

Worst case we run the following D pairings into the season

Seider/ Ed
Chiarot/ Walman
Maata/ Aljo
Holl/ Petry (Petry splitting ice time with whoever is not playing up to par and is being switched in and out of the line up)

I don’t know if we will see the trade we are hoping for in acquiring a top 4 D. I don’t think the team is willing to move the right pieces in order to acquire one. I think our best bet is developing whoever is in the system and betting on them making the next step within 1-3 years. When some of the older guys contracts have finally expired.

Not quite sure what the free agency market looks like, but we already have a log jam on the backend, will need to start waving players. I don’t think sending Holl down is a bad move at this point either. It was a head scratching deal from day 1, I understood that there was an urgency to provide depth on the backend, but Holl was literally the player that I had laughed about being signed by an idiot GM…… did not know it would be this team’s….

 

[13to40]

Disagree. Chiarot should be no higher than 3rd pair and 15-17 minutes a night. He also needs to play to his ability which is stay at home/physical defender, not trying to rush the puck or make plays as nothing about his skillset suggests he can do that or should do that. If he played 3rd pair and was about a mil less cap hit I would have no issue with him.

Not disagreeing with you in the sense that he is better suited for the 3rd pairing role, but towards the end of the year when injuries happened, he was our 4/5th best defender and played the minutes that bettered the team. There was nobody else available who could/would have done a better job.

When he was signed this team did not have any cap constraints. Getting a player to sign for a loser franchise always requires an overpay of some sort. Being a good character guy, playing the police role per se, I don’t mind his contract at all. There are quite a few other contracts that are more alarming for this team than his.

But yes I agree 1-1.5M less and about 3-7 minutes less a night would definitely better suit him.

He’s supposed to be our hard nosed, hitting, mean net front presence. Not our very (very, very x10) poor man’s version of Bobby Orr rushing up with the puck every second shift.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Is the Chiarot bashing just muscle memory from his first season with the Wings? Because he was solid this season.

And I don't totally understand the Chiarot Maatta comparisons when they had pretty different roles and responsibilities.

Chiarot was second only to Seider in TOI/GP. He played over 3 and a half minutes more per game than Maatta, generally against tougher competition. He led the team in even strength TOI/GP. And he generally looked pretty good.

In a perfect world his role will come down some but he's better than a third pairing guy.

 

[norrisnick]

Is the Chiarot bashing just muscle memory from his first season with the Wings? Because he was solid this season.

And I don't totally understand the Chiarot Maatta comparisons when they had pretty different roles and responsibilities.

Chiarot was second only to Seider in TOI/GP. He played over 3 and a half minutes more per game than Maatta, generally against tougher competition. He led the team in even strength TOI/GP. And he generally looked pretty good.

In a perfect world his role will come down some but he's better than a third pairing guy.

He was ok in a 2nd pairing role. He was less ok when he again got thrust into a top pairing role.

All that stuff in the middle there is kind of the point. They were used in pretty different roles. Roles that should have been flipped. Chiarot was overutilized and Maatta underutilized relative to their ability.

 

[DoMakc]

I think in a perfect world we have Walman traded for a 2/3rd at the draft. He has the most trade value of the group.
Holl nobody will touch with a 10’ stick unless he’s packaged with a sweetener. Maata can probably be moved away for a minimal return.

Worst case we run the following D pairings into the season

Seider/ Ed
Chiarot/ Walman
Maata/ Aljo
Holl/ Petry (Petry splitting ice time with whoever is not playing up to par and is being switched in and out of the line up)

I don’t know if we will see the trade we are hoping for in acquiring a top 4 D. I don’t think the team is willing to move the right pieces in order to acquire one. I think our best bet is developing whoever is in the system and betting on them making the next step within 1-3 years. When some of the older guys contracts have finally expired.

Not quite sure what the free agency market looks like, but we already have a log jam on the backend, will need to start waving players. I don’t think sending Holl down is a bad move at this point either. It was a head scratching deal from day 1, I understood that there was an urgency to provide depth on the backend, but Holl was literally the player that I had laughed about being signed by an idiot GM…… did not know it would be this team’s….

There is no point in trading Walman for 2nd or 3rd, and for sure that is not a perfect world. If you want to clear up cap space you trade Chairot or Maatta for picks, buy out Petry or make Holl disappear, but trading your third best defenseman with two years on very team-friendly contact for nothing is by no means perfect.

 

[Winger98]

I'm really hoping our 2nd line is UFA-Compher-Danielson. I'd have Berggren on the fourth line with Veleno and Perron where he can essentially take Sprong's role of 8-10 minutes ES and 1.5 minutes of powerplay time.

 

[norrisnick]

I'm really hoping our 2nd line is UFA-Compher-Danielson. I'd have Berggren on the fourth line with Veleno and Perron where he can essentially take Sprong's role of 8-10 minutes ES and 1.5 minutes of powerplay time.

Just trade him. That's about as pointless as having him be our backup goalie.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I'm really hoping our 2nd line is UFA-Compher-Danielson. I'd have Berggren on the fourth line with Veleno and Perron where he can essentially take Sprong's role of 8-10 minutes ES and 1.5 minutes of powerplay time.

Me to

I think Danielson makes the team out of camp and plays on the 2nd line wurh Compher and some UFA winger(not Kane)

 

[jkutswings]

Me too

I think Danielson makes the team out of camp and plays on the 2nd line with Compher and some UFA winger (not Kane)

I think that's an INCREDIBLY lofty expectation for a kid who was just drafted a year ago.

But...so far...I haven't seen anything that completely shuts down this scenario. Nate Dawg has really showed out lately.

 

[Snuggs]

I think that's an INCREDIBLY lofty expectation for a kid who was just drafted a year ago.

But...so far...I haven't seen anything that completely shuts down this scenario. Nate Dawg has really showed out lately.

I hated the pick, and home boy looks like what everyone wants Kasper to be.

He looks awesome. "Ryan O'Reilly". I think someone in here mentioned.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

Maatta moves the puck much less than Chiarot and plays within his abilities. Chiarot does not.



For most of the year their blueline was far better than ours. Especially the top 4.

Their goalie was better than ours. Plus, peob would have even been better with a less ridiculous work load.
The only dmen who had really good yrs were Tanev and Weegar. Talk to any CGY fan. Everyone else, especially Andersson, was pretty bad.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

Well, from Red Wings perspective i don't see an argument where their defense was any better than ours.

SOG is a misleading stat that fuels the deserve-o-win-crap. The first thing i wanna know is how many high danger chances does a team give up: shots in the slot, odd man rushes, breakaways. If the opponent fires away 40 SOG from below the dot, knock yourself out. Don't care.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

Trade our first for an impact player around Larkin’s age. I feel like it makes too much sense and it isn’t discussed around her enough

Of course it depends on who’s available. But I see names like Buchnevich and Theodore discussed and that’s an easy yes for me

I don’t even care if we have to pay them. Pay them, please.

Like both players, but it is tricky. Theodore i think is more of a fit cuz he doesn't cost assets. But it would have to be under or at worst around 7mil. And i think somebody will pony up more. Plus i'm not sure if his defense. He always had McNabb to cover for him. But he would solve the PP1 question til ASP arrives, no doubt.

Problem with Buchnevich is that he is an UFA next yr i think. Do not wanna spend #15 for 1 yr of him. So a trade and sign is necessary. And i doubt he will pass testing the market when he is so close to UFA. And even if he signs, I don’t think it is the best idea to spend on somebody who is almost 30 and prob wants Max term.

Sucks a bit for Dylan, but the window of this team is not him. It is Mo, Ray etc...Funny cuz i can see his path being the same as Stevie went. Winning cups in his early 30s. He should still be producing by then.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

I think in a perfect world we have Walman traded for a 2/3rd at the draft. He has the most trade value of the group.
Holl nobody will touch with a 10’ stick unless he’s packaged with a sweetener. Maata can probably be moved away for a minimal return.

Worst case we run the following D pairings into the season

Seider/ Ed
Chiarot/ Walman
Maata/ Aljo
Holl/ Petry (Petry splitting ice time with whoever is not playing up to par and is being switched in and out of the line up)

You wanna trade somebody who holds his own on a pairing that gets the toughest matchups league wide and is under contract for cheap in exchange for a meh picks? Am I on crazy pills again???^^

Don't know about throwing Ed this early out there on the top pairing. Let him grow into that spot.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Toss him on a top line and Burgers can score 60 too. He'll have the same flaws dozens of other scoring line forwards have. Like Ehlers for one...

Ehlers very rarely gets on the top line unless there is injury. For all his skill, he is also the odd man out when it comes to their first pp - even when a spot seems to open for him, they move in someone else, like Vilardi this season.
When Connor was injured this year, Ehlers caught fire playing with Scheifle and Vilardi and being on the top pp. If anyone has potential to break out with a change of scenery it is Ehlers, I'm surprised he's not requesting a trade given how he's never been given that prime ice time there.

However, he hasn't really upped his numbers in the playoffs, though I thought he looked pretty dangerous on occasion. Also, I wouldn't want to give up Burgers in a package to get him.

 

[NickH8]

Berggren and Ehlers aren't mutually exclusive

 

[13to40]

You wanna trade somebody who holds his own on a pairing that gets the toughest matchups league wide and is under contract for cheap in exchange for a meh picks? Am I on crazy pills again???^^

Don't know about throwing Ed this early out there on the top pairing. Let him grow into that spot.

Honestly I don’t think he’s anything special. His contract is what he’s worth. He gets better opportunities on this team because of how poor the depth is on the backend.

Not contending for anything meaningful with him on your top line. Do I think moving him instantly betters the team? Hell no. I think he’s a solid every day NHLer. Do I think he is the only one on the backend who can be traded for a positive asset coming back the other way? Yes I do.

I think Ed will work his way up in the line up a lot faster than most think. Usually I’m all for letting the prospects over-ripen in the AHL, but I think he’s the real deal and he’s the real deal now…. Hence why I’m not shying away from the fact that I don’t dismiss the chance of him being on the top line. Is it a bit of a stretch? Yeah I won’t deny it, but I think it’s a realistic possibility depending on how this off season plays out.

 

[Winged Wheel Willy]

Honestly I don’t think he’s anything special. His contract is what he’s worth. He gets better opportunities on this team because of how poor the depth is on the backend.

Not contending for anything meaningful with him on your top line. Do I think moving him instantly betters the team? Hell no. I think he’s a solid every day NHLer. Do I think he is the only one on the backend who can be traded for a positive asset coming back the other way? Yes I do.

I think Ed will work his way up in the line up a lot faster than most think. Usually I’m all for letting the prospects over-ripen in the AHL, but I think he’s the real deal and he’s the real deal now…. Hence why I’m not shying away from the fact that I don’t dismiss the chance of him being on the top line. Is it a bit of a stretch? Yeah I won’t deny it, but I think it’s a realistic possibility depending on how this off season plays out.

Right, but a 2nd/3rd isn't nearly enough for someone who plays 20min. And even a 1st in this weak draft does hardly entice me, if it is not a higher pick than ours.

 

[Henkka]

Think how everything will evolve for next season, it will be like this.

For almost sure, Edvinsson will be paired with Petry. The kid+veteran combo. Just perfect, Petry is the right guy to mentor him, and the handnesses will match. I've always thought Yzerman traded Petry for Ed's mentor. Next season will be it 100%, and then Petry will be gone, probably retires.

For 1st pair, it could be Walman again, or I don't mind if it's Chiarot with Seider.

Think Seider can carry Chiarot already pretty well, after he has developed so much. Already going to challenge the Norris at next season.

So that 1st pair does not necessarily need Walman, and Walman could make the 3rd pair very strong. When Walman started his rise on advanced stats, he was carrying that damn Oesterle then. I could think he could rebound Justin Holl's value, from negative to positive, if they would play together. Walman definitely would carry that pair.

I think we could see a turnaround for Holl, just like we did see for Chiarot, when we got the team depth better and when the partners like Seider developed internally to carry those guys. Walman is "too good" 3rd pair defenceman, but hey, that's what it is on good teams. You have to have "too good" players on multiple positions, to become a playoff team or even contender.

And then, it's tough to see spot for Määttä, even though there's nothing wrong on him. He is just a depth guy, not having no-trade-clauses, so could be a summer trade bait. Or they go with 8 defenceman, and at pre-season Määttä-Johansson is the 4th pair. Think Määttä could mentor Albert pretty well.

All in all, that defence is pretty set for me. Only a big UFA like Pesce could change it drastically.

Chiarot - Seider
Edvinsson - Petry
Walman - Holl
Määttä - Johansson

If Holl does not play, then I could see Chiarot at 3rd pair, mentoring Johansson, as the secondary option. And Walman goes with Seider. Edvinsson-Petry always together.

Walman - Seider
Edvinsson - Petry
Chiarot - Johansson

Imo, these are the two options they will mostly juggle throughout the becoming season. Probably 11+7 will be used too.

Anyways, we are gonna get these "playing over their heads" defencemen finally on the 3rd pair, thanks to kids maturing to Top4 roles. That will have a huge impact on success. Less and weak links there.

 

[19 for president]

Think how everything will evolve for next season, it will be like this.

For almost sure, Edvinsson will be paired with Petry. The kid+veteran combo. Just perfect, Petry is the right guy to mentor him, and the handnesses will match. I've always thought Yzerman traded Petry for Ed's mentor. Next season will be it 100%, and then Petry will be gone, probably retires.

For 1st pair, it could be Walman again, or I don't mind if it's Chiarot with Seider.

Think Seider can carry Chiarot already pretty well, after he has developed so much. Already going to challenge the Norris at next season.

So that 1st pair does not necessarily need Walman, and Walman could make the 3rd pair very strong. When Walman started his rise on advanced stats, he was carrying that damn Oesterle then. I could think he could rebound Justin Holl's value, from negative to positive, if they would play together. Walman definitely would carry that pair.

I think we could see a turnaround for Holl, just like we did see for Chiarot, when we got the team depth better and when the partners like Seider developed internally to carry those guys. Walman is "too good" 3rd pair defenceman, but hey, that's what it is on good teams. You have to have "too good" players on multiple positions, to become a playoff team or even contender.

And then, it's tough to see spot for Määttä, even though there's nothing wrong on him. He is just a depth guy, not having no-trade-clauses, so could be a summer trade bait. Or they go with 8 defenceman, and at pre-season Määttä-Johansson is the 4th pair. Think Määttä could mentor Albert pretty well.

All in all, that defence is pretty set for me. Only a big UFA like Pesce could change it drastically.

Chiarot - Seider
Edvinsson - Petry
Walman - Holl
Määttä - Johansson

If Holl does not play, then I could see Chiarot at 3rd pair, mentoring Johansson, as the secondary option. And Walman goes with Seider. Edvinsson-Petry always together.

Walman - Seider
Edvinsson - Petry
Chiarot - Johansson

Imo, these are the two options they will mostly juggle throughout the becoming season. Probably 11+7 will be used too.

Anyways, we are gonna get these "playing over their heads" defencemen finally on the 3rd pair, thanks to kids maturing to Top4 roles. That will have a huge impact on success. Less and weak links there.

I can't see us entering the season with Petry in the top 4. They've mentioned wanting to cut down on Seider's high competition usage and I don't see how a 2nd pair of Petry/ Ed allows them to do that for sure.

I could absolutely see an Ed-Petry 3rd pairing, but I still see that as needing to find someone for 2nd pair to put with Chiarot. Otherwise we are looking at what we did last year all over again. Probably a bit improved thanks to Ed but there is also no guarantee that he doesn't have the very common Sophomore slump.

I think you are looking at either:

Seider- Walman
Ed- New Guy
Chiarot- Aljo/Petry

or

Seider Walman
Chiarot- New Guy
Ed- Petry
Aljo

As for those wanting to buyout Petry it doesn't make sense to do so. We only save 750k which isn't enough enough to fill his spot with a league min player. As a 6/7 guy for one more year he is fine.

Holl is the guy to buyout if you are going to do so because it saves 2.2 mil a season for two years and only costs 1.1 mil for 2 years on the back end. 1.1 mil + a league min rookie would be a reasonable bottom pairing cap hit, and we have a ton of young dmen looking to enter the league over the next few years.

 

[sepster]

Just going to add this to the conversation, talking with someone in the locker room, there were two players down the stretch that weren't perceived to be as bought in or "pulling with the rest of the team" as everyone else. Said to be not as engaged or willing to play through minor injury. Did not want to specify names. This above came from someone in the organization.

The following is my best guess, based on who was playing, who was not, and who was said to "not be their regular self," I would not be surprised if Walman is one of the players moved to alleviate some of the logjam on D.

 

[Ricelund]

Just going to add this to the conversation, talking with someone in the locker room, there were two players down the stretch that weren't perceived to be as bought in or "pulling with the rest of the team" as everyone else. Said to be not as engaged or willing to play through minor injury. Did not want to specify names. This above came from someone in the organization.

The following is my best guess, based on who was playing, who was not, and who was said to "not be their regular self," I would not be surprised if Walman is one of the players moved to alleviate some of the logjam on D.

Probably Walman and Sprong, right? Both seemed to fall out of favor later in the year.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Kane was the first name that came to my mind.