How do you fix the Wings?

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

The mess Holland inherited in Edmonton was worse than the one he left Stevie and he may just be adding another Cup ring in a few hours.

Wat

 

[jaster]

The mess Holland inherited in Edmonton was worse than the one he left Stevie

 

[13to40]

I wouldn’t say Holland was thrown a bigger pile of shit on his plate when taking over the Oilers than Vs what Stevie was served up here in Detroit…

But to all who hate Holland (seems to always be the majority) he did as he was told by his bosses: keep the streak alive at all costs and try to win. Can’t blame the guy for emptying every cupboard door possible in trying to do so here in Detroit.

Holland was dealt 2 of the better players in the league, with an absolute train wreck of a team moral and a dismantled team. He’s built a good one that I hope can complete the comeback tonight for a historic win.

Stevie is doing exactly what he said he would since coming to Detroit…. And that’s building another contending franchise for the near future and years to come. All of you impatient people, put your seatbelt back on because there will be a few more bumps before we get to the destination: The Stanley cup final.

Last year was a massive success and I think with internal player improvements and maybe 1-2 complementary pieces via Free Agency, this team can take the next step this upcoming season.


This thread is how do you fix the wings….

I think looking into acquiring that disgruntled kid in Winnipeg makes a whole lot of sense. Throw some scraps their way: Beggren, Fabbri and a 2nd… maybe a small add? We have an abundance of D prospects so feel free to use your imagination oh what the + will be.

Another disgruntled kid in Carolina who probably won’t be worth the dollar he is commanding, but would instantly become one of our more skilled forwards. Another interesting acquisition depending on who’s going back the other way.

 

[Oddbob]

Eventually the excuses do have to stop.

Like idk if Grier gets 5 years without expectations in SJ. Or Pat Verbeek in Anaheim. Come year 5 and 6, I think they'll be expected to do something.

Expecting any GM to turn a team around in 5 years is ridiculous when they are bottom of the barrel. Coaches get 5 years at most, most GMs need far longer than that to see if they are doing a good job. That doesn't even touch the fact that Yzerman had Larkin as really the only good piece when he came back here. The other NHL guys were just good to less than good, not game changers or real building blocks. You know this by how no team is building themselves around Mantha, Hronek or Bertuzzi the only other decent pieces Yzerman inherited. Rasmussen is an NHL player but he isn't a major or even that good of a piece. So Yzerman had 1 good piece and about 2-3 years of bad deals to wait out.

You can put any other GM in Steve's place with the same draft luck and we are no better, I truly believe that, whether you like Steve Yzerman or not. In fact we might not even have Raymond or Seider with another GM and most of the players drafted after that were no where near as good, so we might even be worse off.

 

[Oddbob]

The mess Holland inherited in Edmonton was worse than the one he left Stevie and he may just be adding another Cup ring in a few hours. Look at the drastic changes Yzerman made last off season, like 2/3rds of the starting lineup were new players, why wasn't that done years ago? We were not burdened with a horrific cap situation and plenty of bargain bin deals were available, as evidenced by moves he actually made as well as some of the 'impossible' trades/upgrades some of the cap strapped teams have made. Just go through these boards over the past few seasons and see all the threads detailing the half dozen or so teams that were "screwed" because they were so bad and completely kneecapped by a lack of prospects, draft picks, cap and boat anchor contracts. Then magically they move an unmovable contract with little permanent damage and rebound. Even Arizona was sniffing the playoffs for most of last season. This year isnt even over yet and the Kings have already escaped their PLD debacle.

I don't hate Stevie, but he is 90% to blame if this team continues to idle and miss the playoffs. The remaining 10% is due to poor officiating.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm What?

Holland inherited the runaway top player of this generation by a landslide in Connor McDavid and a second Top 2-10 player of this generation in Leon Draisaitl depending on how you view LD. Any GM who can't have that team a top contender every year with those 2 is not a good GM at all. All Ken had to do was find decent depth support which pretty much 85% of all GMs would be able to do.

It would be like having Gretzky in his prime when you take over and not coming away with at least 1 Cup. No genius GM moves needed to win when you have premier top notch players. Heck, Ken even signed the albatross deal with Jack Campbell and it doesn't even affect the Oilers at all, because McDrai, not Holland is taking that team to the top or very near the top.

 

[Inspiration]

Outside of the DeBrincat deal (which was an unusual situation with DeBrincat forcing his way to Detroit), seeing the Red Wings linked to a potential trade in the media is generally a good sign that Yzerman won't be trading for that player.

Said another way, I think the only time you typically hear about Detroit in trade rumors is when they allow themselves to be used as leverage to drive up the price a divisional rival would have to pay (in this case, Ottawa).

^Taps sign. Just ignore every trade rumor involving the Red Wings.

 

[Oddbob]

How many of your first round draft picks taken over a five or six year period are bona fide NHL regulars at the end of that period? Maybe three? It doesn't strike me as a very long period in the context of a rebuild. Perhaps you have other sources of talent that we don't know about.

Adding to your point, if you are lucky, 2 or 3 of 5 first round picks are going to be really good.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Expecting any GM to turn a team around in 5 years is ridiculous when they are bottom of the barrel. Coaches get 5 years at most, most GMs need far longer than that to see if they are doing a good job. That doesn't even touch the fact that Yzerman had Larkin as really the only good piece when he came back here. The other NHL guys were just good to less than good, not game changers or real building blocks. You know this by how no team is building themselves around Mantha, Hronek or Bertuzzi the only other decent pieces Yzerman inherited. Rasmussen is an NHL player but he isn't a major or even that good of a piece. So Yzerman had 1 good piece and about 2-3 years of bad deals to wait out.

You can put any other GM in Steve's place with the same draft luck and we are no better, I truly believe that, whether you like Steve Yzerman or not. In fact we might not even have Raymond or Seider with another GM and most of the players drafted after that were no where near as good, so we might even be worse off.

I agree with this, only question I wonder is, how long do GMs of rebuilding clubs last?

Are most NHL GMs in their seat with the same club for a decade or more?

 

[Oddbob]

I agree with this, only question I wonder is, how long do GMs of rebuilding clubs last?

Are most NHL GMs in their seat with the same club for a decade or more?

I think GMs need in the 8-10 year range, unless they are absolutely doing really bad with lots of horrible decisions. If you are joining a team like Edmonton or Colorado as GM, 2-4 years is fair as they don't need a lot. The reason rebuild GMs need longer is they are building through the draft and the reality is most drafts don't provide more than 40 good NHL players draft wide, which means if you are lucky you are getting 1-2 good players per draft per team. That is why rebuilding takes a long time. You can get better through trades and UFA, but when rebuilding you aren't a prime UFA or RFA destination.

To me my biggest issue with the people on Yzerman's case, is that they complain but I see no ideas from those people that are realistic to improve the team. Like who would you draft different, which realistic trades would you make, which UFAs would you sign that also wanted to be here during this part of the rebuild. It is easy to get on any GMs case when the Holl deal or Copp deal sucks, but every GM in the league has those blunders, every single one. Even the great Scotty Bowman wanted to trade Steve Yzerman for freaking Alexei Yashin which would have been one of the worst moves ever.

The UFA classes have largely been blah as well during Steve's return to Detroit and even if two of the biggest names had wanted to come here in Gaudreau and Huberdeau, they both got a lot and have largely been pretty bad for the money they get.

My only issue with Steve is that because we are rebuilding, guys like AlJo and Edvinsson and even Berggren should be up regardless as they aren't getting any better in the AHL. They will either be good at the NHL or not, I would rather find that out if we miss the playoffs then come close to the playoffs and lose out, but Perron and Compher are the pieces doing the work. I honestly don't think the over ripening thing has ever even been that good to Detroit. Nyquist and Tatar and Hudler were ripened but while they were decent, they were never game changing talent. The Wings were also not that much better a team because we played other option instead of them. 1-2 years up earlier and I don't think they are better or worse to any big degree. Most star NHL players or top end ones, do well right off the hop in the AHL and spend little time there. We may not have been as close to the playoffs this year, but if 2-3 more kids are in the lineup learning NHL hockey and we are still somewhat competitive and I would feel better about our current outlook.

 

[Realgud]

@Oddbob wins this page with a few excellent posts. Well said.

 

[norrisnick]

@Oddbob wins this page with a few excellent posts. Well said.

I mean... quantity, maybe. But I think @jaster had the higher peak.

 

[lilidk]

Holland is a lucky guy , he inherited not a good team, already right guys were traded or drafted,then he had ,unlike other GMs plenty money to play with, then he ruined Detroit and went to work with Edmonton, did a lot of bad moves, but somehow made it to cup finals . I believe Holland belongs to hall in Toronto just for his luck

 

[lomekian]

The mess Holland inherited in Edmonton was worse than the one he left Stevie and he may just be adding another Cup ring in a few hours.

I mean having two of the best players in the world, one of whom might be the second best player ever, and both in their pre-prime is such a terrible thing to inherit. Crystal Meth ain't good for you man...

 

[Pavels Dog]

My only issue with Steve is that because we are rebuilding, guys like AlJo and Edvinsson and even Berggren should be up regardless as they aren't getting any better in the AHL. They will either be good at the NHL or not, I would rather find that out if we miss the playoffs then come close to the playoffs and lose out, but Perron and Compher are the pieces doing the work.

What I fundamentally disagree with is the notion that you "find out" if your prospects are good or not by bringing them up to the NHL level. If they're not quite ready you're basically doing the opposite - you're getting a wrong impression of what they can actually be and could end up drawing wrong conclusions. History is full of these examples.

I also don't see why they wouldn't be getting better in the AHL. In the case of Berggren his per/game production in AHL has increased year over year, and he went from -18, -6 to being a + player this season. Johansson has always been a guy who needs time to build strength, and Edvinsson was a far better player in the spring than he was in the fall.

Rushing has never had a good development track record.

 

[jkutswings]

To me my biggest issue with the people on Yzerman's case, is that they complain but I see no ideas from those people that are realistic to improve the team. Like who would you draft different, which realistic trades would you make, which UFAs would you sign that also wanted to be here during this part of the rebuild. It is easy to get on any GMs case when the Holl deal or Copp deal sucks, but every GM in the league has those blunders, every single one. Even the great Scotty Bowman wanted to trade Steve Yzerman for freaking Alexei Yashin which would have been one of the worst moves ever.

A very fair point. I'm not criticizing his drafting at all - the first round picks alone have been encouraging enough to say that, for a team that received zero favors in the lottery, the draft isn't the problem. I just don't think it's realistic to CONTINUE to rely on it this heavily for team building if they still need to find a big fish or two.

My chief recommendation would be to pursue more trades. Look heavily at teams that may be at the end of their window (Calgary, St Louis) or players/teams that have other new reasons for turnover (change in management, player wanting a change of scenery, etc.).

To provide a couple specific examples, I would have zero hesitation sending 3-4 first rounders to the Blues for Rob Thomas or to the Jackets for Zach Werenski. Now I'm not saying either of those players are on the market, just that I have absolutely zero expectations from magic beans going forward (due to the time required until they reach the NHL and presumably the end of drafting in the top ten), so I'd happily part with them for a major addition(s).

 

[Snuggs]

39, 48, 70, 80, 91

That’s the point totals over the last 5 years for this team, in order. Plot that onto a graph and tell me what direction it looks like it’s going in.

We also have a pretty highly rated pool of prospects (to be fair we should with the picks we’ve had).

That’s not “something”? If we flounder/regress next year I can start to get on board with the maybe we need to try something else thinking, but right now I think we have seen some pretty tangible progress.

I mean I don't think you're discrediting my point... it's year six right? SHOULDN'T there be expectations now? It's defintaly trending right, I believe we had expecations(that didn't get meet) this last season with the playoff push. Now I expect them to make it. If his name isn't Yzerman and Red Wings take step back and get like 80 points. Would his job be so safe? If his name was Mike Grier and he didn't make the playoffs for six straight years... would he get a 7th? Will SJ give Mike Grier six or seven years to make the playoffs? These things I question, but I'm no way in the camp of trying to fire or remove Yzerman. I'm VERY much a Yzerman supporter, I just don't LOVE everything he does.

What's dumb, is saying Ken Holland is at fault for all of what Yzermans/done/not done/etc. I didn't even say anything bad about Yzerman, just saying the Holland excuses should be done with.

At some point, Ken Holland excuse is old. Very true for years 1,2, and possibly 3. Years 4/5 and now 6 there has been enough time.

How many of your first round draft picks taken over a five or six year period are bona fide NHL regulars at the end of that period? Maybe three? It doesn't strike me as a very long period in the context of a rebuild. Perhaps you have other sources of talent that we don't know about.

Idk a hockey team built entirely out of a draft but whatever. I'm also not employed by the NHL so the only ways I actually know a team can bring talent in outside is Draft/trade/free agents. Unfortunately for me.... lol, I'm also not the guy able to make the moves or get the nice seven figure salary to play with a billionaire's money.

Most people are moving the goal post too and acting like the playoffs last season was a LUXURY, truth be told the team choked it away, so sure entertaining season as a whole but idk how you don't call it a little disappointing with how it all ended.

More so too, my original point was how many years are people going to crow Ken Holland before we actually say Yzerman had some hand in what may happen if, imo, moves aren't made. (A step back.)

 

[norrisnick]

I mean I don't think you're discrediting my point... it's year six right? SHOULDN'T there be expectations now? It's defintaly trending right, I believe we had expecations(that didn't get meet) this last season with the playoff push. Now I expect them to make it. If his name isn't Yzerman and Red Wings take step back and get like 80 points. Would his job be so safe? If his name was Mike Grier and he didn't make the playoffs for six straight years... would he get a 7th? Will SJ give Mike Grier six or seven years to make the playoffs? These things I question, but I'm no way in the camp of trying to fire or remove Yzerman. I'm VERY much a Yzerman supporter, I just don't LOVE everything he does.

What's dumb, is saying Ken Holland is at fault for all of what Yzermans/done/not done/etc. I didn't even say anything bad about Yzerman, just saying the Holland excuses should be done with.

At some point, Ken Holland excuse is old. Very true for years 1,2, and possibly 3. Years 4/5 and now 6 there has been enough time.

Correct. Pretty sure you're the only one saying that.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Most people are moving the goal post too and acting like the playoffs last season was a LUXURY, truth be told the team choked it away, so sure entertaining season as a whole but idk how you don't call it a little disappointing with how it all ended.

Yes, the team was in 'playoff position' the past two seasons and 'choked' it away each time. The thing to keep in mind is this was an entire rebuild. How many guys remain from the Ken Holland era?

Larkin - legit 1st liner
Joe Veleno - 4th liner
Berggren - AHL'er, likely gone
Rasumssen - 4th liner

That's from the entire first team + all of the prospects drafted under Ken Holland. You have Dylan Larkin and pretty much nothing whatsoever. A f***ing brand new franchise would be better off because they wouldn't be saddled with a bunch of horrific contracts that hamstrung the team.

Looking at Yzerman's drafts:

Seider - legit #1 dman (time on ice, matchups, etc)
Raymond - legit #1 scoring line winger
Albert Johansson - solid AHL'er will get his NHL shot this season
Edvinsson - looks like a top 4 d-man in the NHL
Cossa - should competing for the #1 spot in Detroit in 2025-26
Mazur - should get his shot in Detroit this season
Kasper - should get his shot in Detroit this season
Sandin-Pelikka - should be a solid top 4 d-man in the NHL

So just from draft picks and prospect development this is what you add to Dylan Larkin and jack f***ing shit left over from Holland:

1st line: Larkin-Raymond
3rd line: Kasper -Mazur

1st pairing: Seider
2nd pairing: Sandin-Pelikka - Edvinsson

Goalie: Cossa

Has it taken a long time? F*** yeah it has! But that is the nucleus of a team that should be good for 6-10 years. I've heard the arguments that Holland was forced to sign guys to crippling contracts becauase PLAYOFFS and here we are having that conversation again. Why was Holland's drafting so f***ing bad? Was it to guarntee the vets he grossly overpaid never had anyone pushing them for playing time? That's some 4D chess level copium.

Holland was washed. Good for him for being able move into a GM chair where he was handed McDavid, Draisaitl and Bouchard. But I think it's important to remember this was a total rebuild. We had Larkin and nothing else of much value. Sure we traded Hronek and Mantha, but the team has gone from 39 points to 91 points. That's significant progress given the hand Yzerman was dealt.

 

[19 for president]

A very fair point. I'm not criticizing his drafting at all - the first round picks alone have been encouraging enough to say that, for a team that received zero favors in the lottery, the draft isn't the problem. I just don't think it's realistic to CONTINUE to rely on it this heavily for team building if they still need to find a big fish or two.

My chief recommendation would be to pursue more trades. Look heavily at teams that may be at the end of their window (Calgary, St Louis) or players/teams that have other new reasons for turnover (change in management, player wanting a change of scenery, etc.).

To provide a couple specific examples, I would have zero hesitation sending 3-4 first rounders to the Blues for Rob Thomas or to the Jackets for Zach Werenski. Now I'm not saying either of those players are on the market, just that I have absolutely zero expectations from magic beans going forward (due to the time required until they reach the NHL and presumably the end of drafting in the top ten), so I'd happily part with them for a major addition(s).

I don't know if I'd go full 3-4 first but a couple for another young center/ prime winger I would do in a second.

I have no issue with 90% of way the Wings are building. We got dealt a raw deal when it came to the lotto and never got a top 3 pick. In Ray and Seider Yzerman got two players that since their drafts have largely been considered top 3 picks in re-drafts. Then I think we have a really solid dman in Ed as well. When Yzerman realized he wasn't going to get that franchise forward to build around, he went for the other tried and true way to build a contender which is from the backend. The problem with building from the backend especially if you are really focusing on defense is that usually that way takes a bit longer. Forwards tend to peak earlier than dman and goalies do, especially at the size Stevie is drafting. What I like about this method of building is that it tends to be easier to maintain under the cap. You can build a deeper team, which I think lends itself to greater playoff success. Its just an annoyingly slower process.

 

[SirloinUB]

The mess Holland inherited in Edmonton was worse than the one he left Stevie

You should try watching and following other teams to gain more perspective.

 

[SirloinUB]

What's dumb, is saying Ken Holland is at fault for all of what Yzermans/done/not done/etc. I didn't even say anything bad about Yzerman, just saying the Holland excuses should be done with.

At some point, Ken Holland excuse is old. Very true for years 1,2, and possibly 3. Years 4/5 and now 6 there has been enough time.

I get what you are saying and I agree with your sentiment but I'm not sure we are there yet.

This team still has 2 more years of the abdelkader buyout on the books. This isn't the end of the world. A million in cap space hardly matters, but quite literally, remnants from that Holland mess are still on the balance sheet.

Further, Holland/Wright's poor drafting is another example of the impacts still being felt. Outside of Larkin the best piece Holland/Wright left behind was Rasmussen/Veleno. Holland's picks should be prime aged right now and making major impacts and we have one top 6 player and a couple of 3rd and 4h liners from that era of drafting (maybe one more middle 6er on the way.)

 

[Snuggs]

I get what you are saying and I agree with your sentiment but I'm not sure we are there yet.

This team still has 2 more years of the abdelkader buyout on the books. This isn't the end of the world. A million in cap space hardly matters, but quite literally, remnants from that Holland mess are still on the balance sheet.

Further, Holland/Wright's poor drafting is another example of the impacts still being felt. Outside of Larkin the best piece Holland/Wright left behind was Rasmussen/Veleno. Holland's picks should be prime aged right now and making major impacts and we have one top 6 player and a couple of 3rd and 4h liners from that era of drafting (maybe one more middle 6er on the way.)

Idk, I just watched a team win the cup with a bunch of guys they brought in waivers/trades/ufa vs a ton of home-grown talent.

No one is saying Holland didn't make it tough, but 4/5 years in the fingers prints of yourself should be everywhere on the team.

Of course, Holland left the cupboards bare, if he did a cracker jack job, he'd have not been "moved on" from. The Senators next GM doesn't get to blame everything on the guy before him if he does a bad job at the end of these next 5/6 years.

Mostly, play time is over, blame game is over. It's Yzerman ship now and he owns everything good/bad. (He's done mostly good)

 

[19 for president]

I get what you are saying and I agree with your sentiment but I'm not sure we are there yet.

This team still has 2 more years of the abdelkader buyout on the books. This isn't the end of the world. A million in cap space hardly matters, but quite literally, remnants from that Holland mess are still on the balance sheet.

Further, Holland/Wright's poor drafting is another example of the impacts still being felt. Outside of Larkin the best piece Holland/Wright left behind was Rasmussen/Veleno. Holland's picks should be prime aged right now and making major impacts and we have one top 6 player and a couple of 3rd and 4h liners from that era of drafting.

Holland and team basically drafting only three guys (Bert, Hronek, and Larkin) that are really above replacement level players has really hurt this team. Holland's last good draft with the Wings is probably 2009 when he took Tatar and Jensen. 2013 at least had 3 NHLers even though Berts the only top 6 guy in the group. Outside of that its really grim. Factor in that he had a 6th OA and a 9th OA and quite a few extra 2nd and 3rds at the end, this makes that extra disappointing. Lets hope Berggy at least becomes a tradeable asset if not a top 6 guy.

With that said Stevie & team need get some post 1st round prospects developing or we'll be saying similar things about their drafts. At least he still has potential NHLers outside of the 1st in every draft since he's been here.

 

[Ricelund]

Yes, the team was in 'playoff position' the past two seasons and 'choked' it away each time. The thing to keep in mind is this was an entire rebuild. How many guys remain from the Ken Holland era?

Larkin - legit 1st liner
Joe Veleno - 4th liner
Berggren - AHL'er, likely gone
Rasumssen - 4th liner

That's from the entire first team + all of the prospects drafted under Ken Holland. You have Dylan Larkin and pretty much nothing whatsoever. A f***ing brand new franchise would be better off because they wouldn't be saddled with a bunch of horrific contracts that hamstrung the team.

Looking at Yzerman's drafts:

Seider - legit #1 dman (time on ice, matchups, etc)
Raymond - legit #1 scoring line winger
Albert Johansson - solid AHL'er will get his NHL shot this season
Edvinsson - looks like a top 4 d-man in the NHL
Cossa - should competing for the #1 spot in Detroit in 2025-26
Mazur - should get his shot in Detroit this season
Kasper - should get his shot in Detroit this season
Sandin-Pelikka - should be a solid top 4 d-man in the NHL

So just from draft picks and prospect development this is what you add to Dylan Larkin and jack f***ing shit left over from Holland:

1st line: Larkin-Raymond
3rd line: Kasper -Mazur

1st pairing: Seider
2nd pairing: Sandin-Pelikka - Edvinsson

Goalie: Cossa

Has it taken a long time? F*** yeah it has! But that is the nucleus of a team that should be good for 6-10 years. I've heard the arguments that Holland was forced to sign guys to crippling contracts becauase PLAYOFFS and here we are having that conversation again. Why was Holland's drafting so f***ing bad? Was it to guarntee the vets he grossly overpaid never had anyone pushing them for playing time? That's some 4D chess level copium.

Holland was washed. Good for him for being able move into a GM chair where he was handed McDavid, Draisaitl and Bouchard. But I think it's important to remember this was a total rebuild. We had Larkin and nothing else of much value. Sure we traded Hronek and Mantha, but the team has gone from 39 points to 91 points. That's significant progress given the hand Yzerman was dealt.

Great post -- and you forgot to include Danielson!

Let's be honest... people's biggest complaints are three more years of Copp @ $5.625M and two more years of Holl at $3.4M. These mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

They have some great young NHLers, arguably the best prospect group in the league, and cap flexibility going forward.

The real issues are out of Yzerman's hands. They never got the first pick in a McDavid/MacKinnon/Bedard-type draft and they've yet to strike gold on a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the later rounds. Maybe Buchelnikov will be it.

 

[SirloinUB]

Idk, I just watched a team win the cup with a bunch of guys they brought in waivers/trades/ufa vs a ton of home-grown talent.

No one is saying Holland didn't make it tough, but 4/5 years in the fingers prints of yourself should be everywhere on the team.

Of course, Holland left the cupboards bare, if he did a cracker jack job, he'd have not been "moved on" from. The Senators next GM doesn't get to blame everything on the guy before him if he does a bad job at the end of these next 5/6 years.

Mostly, play time is over, blame game is over. It's Yzerman ship now and he owns everything good/bad. (He's done mostly good)

I agree that it's his ship now. But I think you are missing the forest for the trees in the context of this conversation.

The point isn't about blaming holland, or pointing fingers. Nor is about giving Yzerman infinite runway.

The point in discussing what Yzerman inherited is to appropriately asses what he has accomplished. To evaluate what he accomplished you have to understand what he started with. You need a baseline to measure off of. In this case the baseline was an empty prospect cupboard, a deeply flawed roster and debilitating contracts that are still being "cleaned up".

To expect this rebuild to be further along is extremely naïve (I know you are not suggesting that).

To your point we are increasingly reaching that point of a clean state. Nielsen's buyout came off the books last year. Abdelkader after next season. Yzerman has had time to build his own prospect pool and has reached the point of clean state.

Where this team goes over the next 2-3 years will be solely on him.

To evaluate what he has accomplished you need to consider where he started. So far he has mostly made good moves that have set the stage for this team to move forward and continue improving. What happens next will be squarely on him.