How can the culture be changed with Dubas still in charge?

[Captain Crunch]

Honest question, let's say your boss say his really unhappy and might can you. Do you function better and can you really perform to your absolute best?

Those hockey players are 0.0001% of human beings that can play in this league. It's hell of a run to get there and you have to be your best everyday to keep yourself on that level that people are expecting you to be. I think they are paid handsomely for that, but players are still human and basic leadership dogmas are good here too. Whip gets you somewhere, but how I have seen it usually trust gets you way farther.

This is special market with this f***ing moaning and scrutiny. Waddell just f***ed up with Nedeljokovic and Sakic will be in trouble to keep his core together so they can compete next season, because they're window is getting smaller after MacKinnon sweetheart contract. All teams have these problems and they support their core, but they don't have to go to newspapers because their fans aren't moaning idiots and can take this as business and entertainment not as religion like we do. If people could take their head out of their ass look around this league and realize that there isn't team that dances around everything without troubles and wins every friggin trade. Nashville has experienced GM, good taxation and still that organization can't get it done. Tampa Bay rebuild 15 years before winning and has that tax advantage.

Every GM makes mistakes and every team has hard times in this cap world. You can't change your whole core in this sports and on those rules, so it's better to follow good leadership dogmas because once you start pushing people they might not react the way you expect them to react. If you make your 11 million guy to feel uncomfortable or suffer he might not play to his best abilities.

Two things: 1) in your last sentence you must be referring to Marner
2) we aren’t asking to change the whole core, and we can’t make a trade just for the sake of making one, but I don’t believe you can build a competitive bottom 6 by nickel and diming.

 

[ULF_55]

I think you need to be open to all possibilities but I think we need a new GM first with a Boston/NY type identity.
Skilled but hard.

The first move I make is new GM.

So you'd be looking longer term, not this year.

 

[mikeyz]

I am genuinely beginning to wonder if Dubas wants to get fired at this point.

It just absolutely boggles my mind how he still has faith in this current team and is hanging his hat on them turning it around.

How does he see that? Especially after losing Hyman. The 1 guy who played his ass off every shift.

 

[Canadian Finn]

he can't have hard working players make his sweetie mitch look worse than he actually is.

 

[myleafs]

Like or hate Dubas, if you were a player on the Leafs right now, you would want to run through a wall for him (if you give a single shit about winning).

What Dubas is doing right now is exactly what you would want from a leader.

I would change would to should but do the amigos think that way?

 

[Lightsol]

Of course you would. Overly critical and impatient fans would've had this team see the 2nd round at least once. I'd bet my career on it.

LOL, no. Those fans would have us rebuilding every 3 years when they realize that the skill players want to get PAID and they don't want to pay them, because 1st overalls are much more exciting. After all, you COULD get Sidney Crosby or Connor McDavid!

 

[kb]

I am genuinely beginning to wonder if Dubas wants to get fired at this point.

It just absolutely boggles my mind how he still has faith in this current team and is hanging his hat on them turning it around.

How does he see that? Especially after losing Hyman. The 1 guy who played his ass off every shift.

Ask Washington and St. Louis how they stuck with their core for a decade prior to winning. They had the "losers" tag.

They stuck with it too.

 

[mikeyz]

Ask Washington and St. Louis how they stuck with their core for a decade prior to winning. They had the "losers" tag.

They stuck with it too.

Yes. But those teams didn't lose in the 1st round 5 years in a row.

 

[Lightsol]

Jesus Christ, those were decades ago. Anything more recent? The only one I can recall is Dubas fans running Kadri out of town.

Kessel hotdog incident and the Reimer's mother incident come to mind.

 

[Lightsol]

What is your suggestion?

Tavares has a NMC, going no-where.

Everyone else can be moved.

Who would you move and for what?

Based on some of the shit I've seen posted around here, it seems like people think the Leafs should move Mitch Marner for a ham sandwich and then sign 3 Zack Hymans with the money...

 

[deprw]

Yes. But those teams didn't lose in the 1st round 5 years in a row.

Neither of those team couldn't get close to winning for over a decade. It doesn't matter if you win playoff series here or there. Capitals and Ovechkin were laughed at for years for failing to get pass of Penguins. Leonsis stood by him and in the end they could make it. There isn't one formula for success. On same timespan Sharks failed to win and can't see it happening anymore. Canucks lost their window.

 

[Stephen]

I don't think there's ever been a year where I wanted to face Boston and Tampa more.


Were at a point where matchups are basically meaningless, but we have am aging Boston core with our number and the 2x defending cup Champs off a short summer? Sign me up! This team needs to face some demons and win.

Boston could low key be in a world of hurt next year. Uncertain transition to the next generation goalie with Halak hitting free agency and Rask banged up and hitting free agency, one more year removed from the Chara era, potentially losing Krejci to free agency, possibly committing to Taylor Hall (what team has ever been rewarded for that), lost some depth in Bjork and maybe moving on from DeBrusk.

 

[The CyNick]

I am genuinely beginning to wonder if Dubas wants to get fired at this point.

It just absolutely boggles my mind how he still has faith in this current team and is hanging his hat on them turning it around.

How does he see that? Especially after losing Hyman. The 1 guy who played his ass off every shift.

It either he gets really still believes. Which puts him in that insanity territory. Or he figures he won't have management support to trade any key pieces, so he's gotta say he has faith in them and hope they magically get better to save his job.

Listening to today's interviews, I feel like he knows he's going down and he can't stop it.

 

[ToneDog]

It either he gets really still believes. Which puts him in that insanity territory. Or he figures he won't have management support to trade any key pieces, so he's gotta say he has faith in them and hope they magically get better to save his job.

Listening to today's interviews, I feel like he knows he's going down and he can't stop it.

Sounds like Babs before he was fired. Always bet on Babcock. Right.

 

[Lightsol]

I don't think there's ever been a year where I wanted to face Boston and Tampa more.


Were at a point where matchups are basically meaningless, but we have am aging Boston core with our number and the 2x defending cup Champs off a short summer? Sign me up! This team needs to face some demons and win.

To be honest, I think if they could just pull off a round win, they'd look much different. Most of this has to be mental at this point. This is where they need a handful of vets who have gone all the way... Muzzin's really the only one, and having him drop with injury every playoffs isn't helping.

I'm still big on the idea of trading Marner in a 3-way deal with the Sabres and the Flames. Given the injury question marks and rift between the Sabres organization and Eichel, I figured a locked up Marner would be the best they could get. The Leafs would get Matthew Tkachuk back in the deal. Yes, we'd only have 1 year left til RFA on the Tkachuk deal and Dubas would likely re-sign him at 9mil per (the qualifying offer amount), but it gives the Leafs a different look in the top 6. I'd also send Nylander to Columbus in a deal for 1 year of Seth Jones. The rumoured deal that Dubas turned down from St. Louis was 1 year of Pietrangelo for Nylander. Is Jones as good as Pietrangelo? No, but with a deal centred around those two maybe we could add to pick up Merzlikins and Domi? Then throw an offer to Gabriel Landeskog. (8mil x 7?) Should we be offering this much in dollars and this kind of term to Landeskog? No.. but it would complete the overhaul of our top 6 and put us in a better position to compete against the Atlantic division.

I don't want any player that plays close to the edge the way the Tkachuks do. Not with the Leafs, where "playing close to the edge" will quickly become "playing OVER the edge" without the player changing how they play one iota...

 

[Christ]

Based on some of the shit I've seen posted around here, it seems like people think the Leafs should move Mitch Marner for a ham sandwich and then sign 3 Zack Hymans with the money...

Better be some good mustard on that sandwich...I'm hungry.

 

[deprw]

For 11 million freaking dollars nobody should have to make him feel uncomfortable, he should be motivated on his own to do what ever it takes to be the very best but we are not seeing this from the entitled Marner

Do you know if Matthews or Marner are motivated or not? They can be frustrated, uncomfortable and trying to figure it out.

it depends if you are a winner or not.

a winner would step up.

perform better than their best.

those who don't aren't winners.

In sports you're loser until you're winner. Hopefully our guys figure it out here and fast, but it can take time. At the moment our organization should help them to be successful not throwing them under the bus. They should be pushed and it isn't any cakewalk if you want to accomplish something on that level it is uncomfortable. GMs and coaches job is to make it possible and build environment where players can accomplish something.

Two things: 1) in your last sentence you must be referring to Marner
2) we aren’t asking to change the whole core, and we can’t make a trade just for the sake of making one, but I don’t believe you can build a competitive bottom 6 by nickel and diming.

All teams in this league are somewhat compromise because of the salary cap. I don't think this is easy way to build a team, but we tried for decade to get skill players here and it was hard. This organization has craved for superstars for decades. Now we have to utilize them, but when we make that trade don't complain when we lose it. You can't trade superstar for fair value, even good trade on paper can be total catastrophe in the end. Usually it's spare parts and futures for superstar.

 

[Stephen]

I was somewhat confused about Dubas' comments of how the people in the room are quality individuals who work really hard and that's why he has belief that they will eventually win.

The turnover rate on the Leafs is so high year to year, you're not even actually keeping the same people year to year other than the Big 4 and a couple of others.

The other thing is, with such an inexperienced management and coaching staff in place, how do they even know if they're working hard enough?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I was somewhat confused about Dubas' comments of how the people in the room are quality individuals who work really hard and that's why he has belief that they will eventually win.

The turnover rate on the Leafs is so high year to year, you're not even actually keeping the same people year to year other than the Big 4 and a couple of others.

The other thing is, with such an inexperienced management and coaching staff in place, how do they even know if they're working hard enough?

there's also a big difference between working hard enough in general and working towards winning. Dubas' idea for this year was to just slap a bunch of veterans together with no real plan for how they would fit together on the ice. Paying a first at the deadline for a glorified babysitter in Foligno who was a shell of himself as a player says a lot about how much faith he had in the team to work hard enough too

 

[Lightsol]

All teams in this league are somewhat compromise because of the salary cap. I don't think this is easy way to build a team, but we tried for decade to get skill players here and it was hard. This organization has craved for superstars for decades. Now we have to utilize them, but when we make that trade don't complain when we lose it. You can't trade superstar for fair value, even good trade on paper can be total catastrophe in the end. Usually it's spare parts and futures for superstar.

For a long time the Leafs could make up for their drafting failures by using money to sign good veteran free agents. Cap has ended that (and I still say the entire system is flawed and needs to be reanalyzed; the cap hasn't actually done anything to keep salaries low, what it has instead done is caused teams with no good young players to overpay their middle-6 forwards to get to the cap floor, causing this huge jump in the price of middle-6 forwards...). The issue is, development via drafting is harder, slower and has a much lower odds of success than free agents...

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Dubas is sticking to this core bc he needs to. He is too afraid to make any moves and the Safest bet is to ride the core. If they struggle early, it will be Keefe, unless they are not even close at TDL, Dubas Will mortgage the whole farm and picks to ensure the team make it through the first round in order to safe his job.

 

[Trapper]

So you'd be looking longer term, not this year.

I think this should be his last kick at the can to show some kind of “reward” for his vision.
We can debate it should have happened now, but it didn’t.

You always want to save your skilled players as long as possible (even if I don’t think it’s the right mix), that’s why you change the coach, the depth, the hot dog vendor.

We’ve done that. Failure from here on out, that should be it. Find a vision that incorporates the aspects of regular season/playoff hockey, adapt to skill and forecheck and harder/tougher to play against.
Then move those that don’t do that. Regular season dangles isn’t enough to be champions.

You can’t try to sell me something but show me nothing. This isn’t blind faith, it’s a results business.

Dubas can’t do what then needs to be done. He’s too big brother and bet his job. He’s done if it doesn’t work.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Do you know if Matthews or Marner are motivated or not? They can be frustrated, uncomfortable and trying to figure it out.



In sports you're loser until you're winner. Hopefully our guys figure it out here and fast, but it can take time. At the moment our organization should help them to be successful not throwing them under the bus. They should be pushed and it isn't any cakewalk if you want to accomplish something on that level it is uncomfortable. GMs and coaches job is to make it possible and build environment where players can accomplish something.



All teams in this league are somewhat compromise because of the salary cap. I don't think this is easy way to build a team, but we tried for decade to get skill players here and it was hard. This organization has craved for superstars for decades. Now we have to utilize them, but when we make that trade don't complain when we lose it. You can't trade superstar for fair value, even good trade on paper can be total catastrophe in the end. Usually it's spare parts and futures for superstar.

Which takes us all the way back to when management abandoned the rebuild and became impatient. Now it is what it is, a top heavy team with an improved defence, and a goalie who has played well, albeit in a limited amount, and has had some injury issues. And praying that we can have a capable bottom 6 without spending what might need to be spent.

 

[tronoleaf]

Shanahan ought to be fired the same day Dubas is. We can only hope.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Kessel hotdog incident and the Reimer's mother incident come to mind.

Yeah the fans really f***ed those up. Member when we were all calling Reimer's mother en masse?