How are you feeling about Tavares these days?

[ACC1224]

Think this needs a clean break.

You go to him, and tell him that currently as things stand the organization doesn't think they are going to renew him, and see if there's any pathway towards moving him elsewhere.

If there isn't, you let him play out the final year of his deal - I just don't see the value in bringing him back at a reduced number for a role lower in the lineup, when you can fill those spots with younger, more effective players in free agency. That middle class of forwards is always available every July 1st.

I don't blame Tavares for much of this, but ultimately, you have to just turn the page and start cleansing the mojo here a little bit.

They may value his leadership.

 

[Tak7]

They may value his leadership.

This isn't a shot at John - he might be an exceptional leader behind the scenes.

But I'd like to see something else. I think that room needs a complete shakeup / cleanse, and something resembling a fresh feel and vibe to it. Right now, the stench of failure is putrid.

You can find "good leaders" in free agency every summer.

 

[ACC1224]

This isn't a shot at John - he might be an exceptional leader behind the scenes.

But I'd like to see something else. I think that room needs a complete shakeup / cleanse, and something resembling a fresh feel and vibe to it. Right now, the stench of failure is putrid.

You can find "good leaders" in free agency every summer.

No idea what the dynamic in the room is or how the team values him off the ice.
We'll need to wait until next summer to find out but I do get your point about a fresh feel.

 

[hotpaws]

This isn't a shot at John - he might be an exceptional leader behind the scenes.

But I'd like to see something else. I think that room needs a complete shakeup / cleanse, and something resembling a fresh feel and vibe to it. Right now, the stench of failure is putrid.

You can find "good leaders" in free agency every summer.

he might be an exceptional leader behind the scene but i doubt that based on everything you see of him on and off the ice

and then there's the little issue of no club team he's been a part of has done anything in the playoffs and this includes his 4yrs in jr

 

[Evilhomer]

This isn't a shot at John - he might be an exceptional leader behind the scenes.

But I'd like to see something else. I think that room needs a complete shakeup / cleanse, and something resembling a fresh feel and vibe to it. Right now, the stench of failure is putrid.

You can find "good leaders" in free agency every summer.

This is where I am at, as well. I appreciate that he is here next year no matter and, who knows, maybe there is tremendous playoff success next season and he ends up being a big part of that, but absent that kind of outcome I don't see the rationale for bringing him back at any price. Maybe this is one of those cases where the weight of the past is just too heavy.

 

[mikeyz]

This is where I am at, as well. I appreciate that he is here next year no matter and, who knows, maybe there is tremendous playoff success next season and he ends up being a big part of that, but absent that kind of outcome I don't see the rationale for bringing him back at any price. Maybe this is one of those cases where the weight of the past is just too heavy.

This really f***ing pissed me off.

 

[Tak7]

he might be an exceptional leader behind the scene but i doubt that based on everything you see of him on and off the ice

and then there's the little issue of no club team he's been a part of has done anything in the playoffs and this includes his 4yrs in jr

I'm not going to put the lack of success in a team sport down to him. He's been a good Maple Leaf, and held up his end of that deal. It was always going to age poorly in the final year or two.

While we don't know what sort of leader he is & what he's like behind the scenes, I do think it's notable that in his 6 years here, I can't recall a single noteworthy quote or interview. People lead in different ways though.

 

[hotpaws]

This really f***ing pissed me off.

good for JD , who the f*** wants to listen to JT's bs again

 

[Tak7]

This is where I am at, as well. I appreciate that he is here next year no matter and, who knows, maybe there is tremendous playoff success next season and he ends up being a big part of that, but absent that kind of outcome I don't see the rationale for bringing him back at any price. Maybe this is one of those cases where the weight of the past is just too heavy.

I thought Ray said it best on Monday on Overdrive:

After hearing the Joseph Woll news before game 7, he thought:

"There needs to be a scrub to refresh everything, to try and lose all the slop that they've been carrying around with them, including the bad luck. "

 

[hotpaws]

I'm not going to put the lack of success in a team sport down to him. He's been a good Maple Leaf, and held up his end of that deal. It was always going to age poorly in the final year or two.

While we don't know what sort of leader he is & what he's like behind the scenes, I do think it's notable that in his 6 years here, I can't recall a single noteworthy quote or interview. People lead in different ways though.

he was brought in to supposedly help the team get over the hump so no he hasn't held up his end of the deal

the age thing is overblown , Panarin is a yr younger and put up his best season ever and i doubt he'll all of the sudden become a liability next year and then there's Kopitar who's 36 and still a highly productive quality player

yes people age differently but a big part of JT's issues are just as much his play style as is it is him getting even slower and he refuses to try to adapt

also you can tell how much the guys respect him when no one ever even bats an eye any time he gets hit hard and that's because they know JT will never have their back

 

[Larcos_Unal]

Tavares has been in the league 15 years, he's been a Captain most of that time. His teams have gotten out of the 1st round twice. I think we're mistaking serious, family man for an ideal hockey captain.

All I've seen is a guy who's barely engaged on the bench, lets opponents take liberties on himself and his teammates without retaliation. Can you imagine JT standing up in the dressing room and delivering a 'Messier' type speech to rile the boys up? Yeah, me neither...

 

[Tak7]

he was brought in to supposedly help the team get over the hump so no he hasn't held up his end of the deal

the age thing is overblown , Panarin is a yr younger and put up his best season ever and i doubt he'll all of the sudden become a liability next year and then there's Kopitar who's 36 and still a highly productive quality player

yes people age differently but a big part of JT's issues are just as much his play style as is it is him getting even slower and he refuses to try to adapt

also you can tell how much the guys respect him when no one ever even bats an eye any time he gets hit hard and that's because they know JT will never have their back

Again - that's not all on him.

He's part of the playoff problem, sure, but when he signed that deal the expectation had to have been that the team gets better around him, and that really hasn't happened. Remember, part of the lure of him signing here was that he got a chance to play with Marner. In year 1, he put up a career high 47 goals, and then Marner got yanked off his line and put back with Matthews, and he's not really had consistent linemates ever since.

Don't really care how other people age - JT was never the fastest or best skater even in his prime, so his slowdown as a result of age will always feel more impactful.

He's basically been a point per game since he's been there - he's held up his share.

 

[hotpaws]

Again - that's not all on him.

He's part of the playoff problem, sure, but when he signed that deal the expectation had to have been that the team gets better around him, and that really hasn't happened. Remember, part of the lure of him signing here was that he got a chance to play with Marner. In year 1, he put up a career high 47 goals, and then Marner got yanked off his line and put back with Matthews, and he's not really had consistent linemates ever since.

Don't really care how other people age - JT was never the fastest or best skater even in his prime, so his slowdown as a result of age will always feel more impactful.

He's basically been a point per game since he's been there - he's held up his share.

it's not all on him but a large part is

he has had as consistent linemates as has AM and when your down on the pecking order you don't have the team revolve around you , they tried that on the Islanders and were a shit show until he walked

JT's problem is he's was a very good player , he was never a great player who could tilt the ice but got paid as a great player here and that's why the team could get better and in fact our depth got worse .

and the two things you'll read on the back of his hockey card are

Johnny got his
and it's not his fault

 

[seanlinden]

This isn't a shot at John - he might be an exceptional leader behind the scenes.

But I'd like to see something else. I think that room needs a complete shakeup / cleanse, and something resembling a fresh feel and vibe to it. Right now, the stench of failure is putrid.

You can find "good leaders" in free agency every summer.

Here's the problem... you really can't.

You can find guys that "play the right way" come playoff time; or know what it takes to go on a deep run; like Domi, Bertuzzi, Edmundson, Schenn, etc...

However, when you bring a guy like that in on a 1 or 2 year deal making less than half of what Matthews and Nylander make, and there's a highly established "leadership core" with Matthews & Rielly -- it's really, really difficult for them to actually become a leader.

I'm not saying that JT is a spectacular leader. As another poster mentioned, he's been captain in this league for the majority of his carrer, and never had much playoff success.

However, he does "serve a purpose" as a leader of this team -- both in being somebody that doesn't get phased by the criticism, somebody to throw to the media after a loss, and somebody who sets the example of "show up, work, go home"; whereas a guy like Matthews, certainly has a little more flair to his life.

Call me crazy, but if Tavares does go, I'd make Morgan Rielly captain before I make Auston Matthews captain.

 

[Tak7]

Here's the problem... you really can't.

Of course you can.

Look at the number of them that signed last free agency. What an insane thing to say.

 

[seanlinden]

Of course you can.

Look at the number of them that signed last free agency. What an insane thing to say.

Did you read the rest of the post?

Guys with leadership qualities, or who "play the right way" can be signed... getting a guy that can actually come in and be a leader on a team with an established core is very, very difficult.

How many UFAs signed last year wear "A"s or "C"s for their new teams?

 

[Tak7]

Did you read the rest of the post?

Guys with leadership qualities, or who "play the right way" can be signed... getting a guy that can actually come in and be a leader on a team with an established core is very, very difficult.

How many UFAs signed last year wear "A"s or "C"s for their new teams?

Ryan O'Reilly and Luke Schenn both did that last year.

Spezza & Giordano?

Marleau?

Max Domi?

Utterly nonsense to suggest it can't happen. Of course it can, and it has.

 

[hotpaws]

Did you read the rest of the post?

Guys with leadership qualities, or who "play the right way" can be signed... getting a guy that can actually come in and be a leader on a team with an established core is very, very difficult.

How many UFAs signed last year wear "A"s or "C"s for their new teams?

do you actually believe Mathews/Marner/Willie/Rielly look up to Tavares as a leader ? i seriously doubt that and if i had to guess the guys people look up to for leadership in that room i'd put my money on Rielly and Mathews

 

[seanlinden]

Ryan O'Reilly and Luke Schenn both did that last year.

Spezza & Giordano?

Marleau?

Max Domi?

Utterly nonsense to suggest it can't happen. Of course it can, and it has.

Nashville was a) not a playoff team last year, b) just underwent a massive cull of their top forwards. They also comitted a ton of money and term to fairly old players in order to be able to do that.

Spezza & Giordano were never the "leaders" in Toronto. They were guys with leadership qualities, but the leaders were clearly the guys making the big bucks. Same for Domi.

Marleau was brought in to a MUCH younger team without any form of established leadership heirarchy in place. A Mitch Marner, Auston Matthews, or William Nylander on an ELC will absolutely look to Marleau for how things are to be done. The ~27 year old versions of these guys, with their massive contracts, would not.

do you actually believe Mathews/Marner/Willie/Rielly look up to Tavares as a leader ? i seriously doubt that and if i had to guess the guys people look up to for leadership in that room i'd put my money Rielly and Mathews

Not anymore.

But what Tavares does provide, is somebody for the Matthew Knies, Fraser Mintens, Easton Cowans, Bobby McManns of the world to look up to.

 

[Evilhomer]

he was brought in to supposedly help the team get over the hump so no he hasn't held up his end of the deal

the age thing is overblown , Panarin is a yr younger and put up his best season ever and i doubt he'll all of the sudden become a liability next year and then there's Kopitar who's 36 and still a highly productive quality player

yes people age differently but a big part of JT's issues are just as much his play style as is it is him getting even slower and he refuses to try to adapt

also you can tell how much the guys respect him when no one ever even bats an eye any time he gets hit hard and that's because they know JT will never have their back

To be fair, both of these guys have always been better than Tavares - Kopitar because of what he adds on the defensive side...and Panarin is just light years better than Tavares. I don't even dislike Tavares, and he has a knack for coming up big in key moments, even if it sometimes looks flukey (the OT winner against Tampa), but I think we are at the stage where holding on to the memory of what someone once was will do this team no good.

 

[hotpaws]

Not anymore.

But what Tavares does provide, is somebody for the Matthew Knies, Fraser Mintens, Easton Cowans, Bobby McManns of the world to look up to.

doubt they ever looked up to him and why would they have , he's never accomplished anything

and why would the kids look up too JT instead of Mathews and the rest of our top players ? i know some of fans are trying to invent reasons that JT still has some use for this team but unfortunately he really doesn't

 

[seanlinden]

doubt they ever looked up to him and why they have , he's never accomplished anything

and why would the kids look up too JT instead of Mathews and the rest of our top players ? i know some of fans are trying to invent reasons that JT still has some use for this team but unfortunately he really doesn't

Obviously I'm not in the Leaf room... but my guess....

Matthews, Marner, and Nylander are not the type to say "hey bro, come live in my apartment this year". With Tavares, I suspect there was probably a discussion between him, Keefe, Treliving, and maybe even Shanahan, about how part of his role as captain is to take guys like Minten and Knies in (as he did this year).

Yes, I'm sure a guy like Knies would especially gravitate more towards Matthews given that they're both from Arizona; but a guy you live with will probably rub off a little more than he otherwise would.

When you bring in a guy as a UFA, even if he's the greatest leader in the world, it takes time to "assert" himself in a room. The ability for one to assert themselves in the room is also influenced by several factors, including:

1. The degree to which the team has comitted to thee. A guy on a 1 year deal is going to have a tough time asserting himself as the leader of the group.

2. The strength, and "ingrained-ness" of the existing leadership group on the team. A guy like Marleau was able to become an instant leader because he joined a team that was headlined by 2nd year NHL players (Matthews/Marner/Nylander) and guys on the last year of their deal who were probably on the way out in Bozak and Van Riemsdyk. The leadership group very quickly became Marleau, Kadri & Rielly.

Any "proven leader" coming to Toronto is going to have to contend with the fact that Matthews & Nylander are the production-stars of the team. They're locked up on long term deals, and are 500+ game NHL veterans at this point.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

? i know some of fans are trying to invent reasons that JT still has some use for this team but unfortunately he really doesn't

THIS. Nailed it

 

[Daisy Jane]

doubt they ever looked up to him and why they have , he's never accomplished anything

and why would the kids look up too JT instead of Mathews and the rest of our top players ? i know some of fans are trying to invent reasons that JT still has some use for this team but unfortunately he really doesn't

okay to be fair. the previous poster didn't say instead of them. but i don't think it's fair that you are implying that they don't look up to JT period.

I mean. okay admittedly, I'm not a man, and I never played ice hockey but a Lot of times i read people's posts here and they just make it sound like "well if you aren't super duper fancy and put up everything up, you're trash." (this is a general lump together, i'm not saying that you said this specifically,). but when I played sports (and I've played from when i was little all the way through university. - there were all sorts of leaders on my teams, and I had a whole lot of captains. not all my captains were the super best point getter of the teams I play. not all my captains were. RAAAHHHHH LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!!!! type people.

now I am not going to sit here and say that JT is the bestest captain that ever captain'ed. but i also believe that people here have this belief in their head on what a captain should be and they are super duper hard on anyone when they don't live up to that expectation in their head. Mats got rode hard that he was a bad captain. Phaneuf got it bad too. (and I'll own it, I gave him crap A LOT, and I thought Lupul would have been a better one, what a mistake that would have been) People want Matthews to be the captain simply because he scores all the points and franchise player (but to me he doesn't seem to be "captain" material either but it's also en vogue to make those guys "captain") which technically. you know is why they made JT captain here too. so who knows what is the "right" type of captain.

that's just my two pennies on that.

 

[hamzarocks]

Honestly Ive been so bitter and angry that I have been hating on Matthews the whole day when he still the best player in franchise history

the hate should be going to this bum and minny mitch.

f*** John Tavares