GDT: Honoring Greatness: Your New Jersey Devils (38-15-5) vs. Philadelphia Flyers (23-27-10), 7 PM, MSGSN

[JimEIV]

And two #1 overalls aren’t going to be forecast at a much higher level than a sixth rounder?

Sure... but now you're gonna have to pay for it... when you could've been just treating him fairly all along.

And no, I do not believe or would accept an argument that what Bratt has been paid over the last 3 years is *fair" in anyway.

 

[glenwo2]

Last night on the NHL App and NHL.com the goal was credited to Jack initially.

ah okay.

I mean... Jack was the reason that goal happened so...technically, I'd give him a goal on that as well as Bratt.

 

[NJDevs26]

You're acting on the premise Bratt would automatically be 'fair' on a contract now if the organization was more than fair with him two years ago when there's no way to ascertain if that's at all true - we don't even know what both sides are offering now for starters.

 

[JimEIV]

Again it’s easy to have this argument in hindsight. I’m willing to bet there was a longer term offer on the table for Bratt but at a value they did not agree on. That’s why the negotiation ate into a part of the season. And say what you will about guys getting paid based on potential, but it’s hard to argue against that with the way both centers are playing currently. While Bratt has been unbelievable for the past two years and has always shown that talent, his production at the time of the first contract did not warrant something substantial in terms of pay. And unfortunately, maybe that has muddied the waters ever since when it comes to his representation.

I won’t argue this latest deal though but it’s hard to figure who the more difficult party is. Either way, I hope it comes to a resolution sooner than later.

I don't know why so many people use the "hindsight " disclaimer when many people were pointing out the obvious as it was happening.

If someone points out the iceberg and you hit it, you can't say "in hindsight I should've changed course"

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I don't know what happened with the Bratt negotiations but "Fitz tried to get him to sign long term for less than he's worth" is definitely something I could see happening, based on the Sieganthaler and Hughes contracts which are the only two RFA contracts with significant term he signed.

Bratt stuck to his guns and will be rewarded for it, good for him.

 

[glenwo2]

You're acting on the premise Bratt would automatically be 'fair' on a contract now if the organization was more than fair with him two years ago when there's no way to ascertain if that's at all true - we don't even know what both sides are offering now for starters.

But you yourself just stated earlier that neither one of them (Meier/Bratt) are a lock to sign long-term at this point.

Isn't that also speculation?

Speculating that Bratt isn't a lock to sign long-term when you "don't even know what both sides are offering now" is the definition of speculating, good sir.

 

[JimEIV]

Bratt has outproduced Nico every step of the way? Thats straight up not true. Bratt didnt break over 35 points until last year. He had 35 first year and less each after until last season. Nico had mutliple seasons above that number.

Bratt has similar points (less even) than Nico over the span (with more games played)

Bratt career to date:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
366	94	165	259	-8

Nico career to date:

GP	G	A	P	+/-
358	103	158	261	11

Bratt should get paid (and i dont have a problem with it unless its more than hughes) but stop with the lies.

Those are career numbers....Last 3 years are the contract years in question. Meaning contracts after the ELC.

Last 3 years, as I said, Bratt out produced Nico every step of the way.

Edit: Even by career numbers you think it's at all fair that Bratt has been paid 10.9 million over the last 3 years and Nico has been paid 21.75 over the same time?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

 

[Better Call Sal]

I don't know why so many people use the "hindsight " disclaimer when many people were pointing out the obvious as it was happening.

If someone points out the iceberg and you hit it, you can't say "in hindsight I should've changed course"

Listen, I love Bratt’s game. But going into the first negotiation after his ELC, he had seasons of 13, 8 and 16 goals and 35, 33 and 32 points. Forgive me if I find it hard to argue that he should have gotten paid based on potential with that production to that point as a smaller sized winger vs. your two number 1 overall centers who I know you’re referring to when you mention guys being paid for potential. Which, by the way, those contracts have worked out great.

Bratt bet on himself with the bridge deal and will win big, one way or another. More power to him. Many players would not have done that.

 

[Whaddagoal]

Those are career numbers....Last 3 years are the contract years in question. Meaning contracts after the ELC.

Last 3 years, as I said, Bratt out produced Nico every step of the way.

Edit: Even by career numbers you think it's at all fair that Bratt has been paid 10.9 million over the last years and Nico has been paid 21.75 over the same time?

Ok, fair.

Nico defense is on after your crapping about Nico all the time. I thought you meant career. Ill chill my orig reply.

Edit: I dont think its fair he accumulated less. I think bratt should get paid more now, but at the time, it wasnt clear during his earlier years he'd fully break out. He barely breached mid 30 points up until recently only so i see why it was the case.

 

[JimEIV]

Listen, I love Bratt’s game. But going into the first negotiation after his ELC, he had seasons of 13, 8 and 16 goals and 35, 33 and 32 points. Forgive me if I find it hard to argue that he should have gotten paid based on potential with that production to that point as a smaller sized winger vs. your two number 1 overall centers who I know you’re referring to when you mention guys being paid for potential. Which, by the way, those contracts have worked out great.

Bratt bet on himself with the bridge deal and will win big, one way or another. More power to him. Many players would not have done that.

Jack's contract seems to have worked out great. I wouldn't say that is necessarily true for Nico.

Not saying it's bad...but certainly not a steal to date.

 

[glenwo2]

I think if they got Gaudreau, Bratt might have been traded. There's no way to prove that now, but I do wonder how they're going to finagle two long-term extensions to wingers with Meier/Bratt? Not that either one is a lock to sign long-term at this point.

All I know is that if the Devils land Meier and sign him to an extension, all it would do is lay out the "battlefield" for Fitz and Bratt's Agent this coming offseason.

 

[NJDevs26]

But you yourself just stated earlier that neither one of them (Meier/Bratt) are a lock to sign long-term at this point.

Isn't that also speculation?

Speculating that Bratt isn't a lock to sign long-term when you "don't even know what both sides are offering now" is the definition of speculating, good sir.

We know Bratt isn't a lock to sign long-term because we've gone through two protracted negotiations already without him signing long-term. We can't say Timo is a lock to sign long-term before he's legally allowed to talk with us, especially if he's getting traded without an extension in place. Those are facts, not speculation (other than him getting traded without an extension anyway)..

 

[JimEIV]

I really won't be happy we if sign a big name player to a contract that cost a homegrown player to seek fair value elsewhere.

That's where my POV is coming from...and further down the line, I can very easily see this situation impacting Mercer equally.

 

[glenwo2]

I really won't be happy we if sign a big name player to a contract that cost a homegrown player to seek fair value elsewhere.

That where my POV is coming from...and further down the line, I can very easily see this situation impacting Mercer equally.

I don't often agree with you on some things, Jim, but this is one hill I am willing to die on.

 

[Triumph]

I don't know why so many people use the "hindsight " disclaimer when many people were pointing out the obvious as it was happening.

If someone points out the iceberg and you hit it, you can't say "in hindsight I should've changed course"

It wasn't obvious because no one knows what else the Devils offered. If the Devils offered something like 5 years in the mid 4s and Jesper rejected that, guess what, he's going to end up making much more than that contract offered.

 

[MartyOwns]

I don't know why so many people use the "hindsight " disclaimer when many people were pointing out the obvious as it was happening.

If someone points out the iceberg and you hit it, you can't say "in hindsight I should've changed course"

you can’t be serious lol. you pointed out a lot of icebergs over the last few years that turned out to be ice cubes. i won’t mention them as to not derail the thread, but come on now.

we “overpaid” for nico and jack based on their potential AND because we were the laughingstock of the league. now we’ve turned a corner, and players want to be here. i’m not interested in overpaying bratt- he can sign a fair deal and be a key part of a budding franchise or he can f*** off. i hope it’s the former.

 

[NJDevs26]

I really won't be happy we if sign a big name player to a contract that cost a homegrown player to seek fair value elsewhere.

That's where my POV is coming from...and further down the line, I can very easily see this situation impacting Mercer equally.

Or are we trying to acquire a big-name player because we know Bratt's not going to sign anything reasonable before UFA in the first place? This hunt for a big-name winger has been going on since the offseason when they were well into fruitless negotiation #2 with the Bratt camp. Technically we're already into negotiation window #3 without a deal before any big-name winger's ever walking through the door.

 

[JimEIV]

Or are we trying to acquire a big-name player because we know Bratt's not going to sign anything reasonable before UFA in the first place?

Maybe...but it seems like a kicking the can down the line and transferring the situation to Mercer in that scenario.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Jack's contract seems to have worked out great. I wouldn't say that is necessarily true for Nico.

Not saying it's bad...but certainly not a steal to date.

They don’t need to all be steals, they can be fair value and for Nico, that is fair value for all that he brings. And you know he brings more to the table than just his goal and point totals, even if that’s what you would typically prefer to focus on.

And for the record once more, I’m with you in agreement. I don’t want Meier in lieu of Bratt. I want them both, it makes us a better team. But if the waters were muddied from the discussions from his contract after his ELC, I think I know which party has been more unreasonable since the beginning.

 

[NJDevs26]

I think either they sign Mercer long-term soon, or they'll have to give him fair market value after 3-4 years, which I'm not all that worried about assuming the cap finally starts to inch back upward by then.

 

[Whaddagoal]

I really won't be happy we if sign a big name player to a contract that cost a homegrown player to seek fair value elsewhere.

That's where my POV is coming from...and further down the line, I can very easily see this situation impacting Mercer equally.

I agree with you here on this thought. Id rather keep Bratt than look elsewhere.

However, but how do we know if Bratt hasnt already been offered fair value now, and just isn't taking it? And if that is the case, wouldn't you be forced to look elsewhere if you were GM?

 

[JimEIV]

I agree with you here on this thought. Id rather keep Bratt than look elsewhere.

However, but how do we know if Bratt hasnt already been offered fair value now and just isnt taking it? And if that is the case, wouldn't you be forced to look elsewhere if you were GM?

I think we can be fairly certain that Bratt wasn't offered fair value based solely on the fact that he has a one year deal worth 5.4M.

Bratt is making just about the same as Tatar is this year in actual dollars. That's not right.

 

[Whaddagoal]

Or are we trying to acquire a big-name player because we know Bratt's not going to sign anything reasonable before UFA in the first place? This hunt for a big-name winger has been going on since the offseason when they were well into fruitless negotiation #2 with the Bratt camp. Technically we're already into negotiation window #3 without a deal before any big-name winger's ever walking through the door.

This is an important angle that isn't discussed much. Its very likely to be a possible reality of the situation. We simply are looking to fill the void when he we realize we cant afford his asks.

Bratt simply may want to maximize his returns and the personal/team attachment/ homegrown thought may be less important to him than it is for us fans.

Maybe its not, but its certainly possible given where we are now.

 

[Triumph]

I think we can be fairly certain that Bratt wasn't offered fair value based solely on the fact that he has a one year deal worth 5.4M.

Bratt is making just about the same as Tatar is this year in actual dollars. That's not right.

That's how arbitration works. It is in fact, one of the fairest contracts in the league.