Confirmed with Link: Holy Crap, They Actually Make a Move! (Guentzel and Ty Smith to Carolina for Bunting + Ponomaryov + Koivunen + Lucius + Conditional 2024 2nd)

[The Faulker 27]

Jake is great around the net. In a way no guy on the team quite is. He’s not super fast but he can quickly find guys who are open, has the skill to make those tight passes and he has the knack of finishing up close. Over the years he doesn’t score amazing goals to watch, they seem easy but for some reason not a lot of guys can consistently do it and he’s one of them. To answer your question…..yes he brings something we lack and will miss. Necas is the opposite of poised in tight spaces at times, sometimes the best skill he has is skating away/through from tight spaces then figuring out what’s next on the other side.

Kuzy also answers your question as a yes. If he ended up being consistent, in shape and had the right mindset he’s our actual number one center. He’s notably better offensively than Aho. He’s dynamic, poised, creative and unafraid to take chances to make things happen. Aho is real good at everything but not really the master at anything. It’s been hard to have the conversation about what Aho is or isn’t around here for years because he’s produced enough to be our number one and most people chafe at the thought of him being considered otherwise.

Kuzy is a number one. Or was. Or still is maybe? I think psychologically he’s best as our number two. I don’t think he wants to be that guy and we don’t want to be counting on him to be more. He absolutely brings something we lack though.

I don’t think it’s lost on management what we have going on right now.

Notably better offensively than Aho? Normally I don't give a shit about this stuff but...

It's worth mentioning Kuzy had the luxury of playing on a much more talented WSH team, not to mention with (arguably) the greatest goal scorer of all time. From what I'm finding 110 of his 400 assists (27.5%) came from OV goals alone.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

It’s incredible how underrated Aho is by even our own fans. For some reason people take him for granted. He’ll likely go down as the best Hurricane ever

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

It’s incredible how underrated Aho is by even our own fans. For some reason people take him for granted. He’ll likely go down as the best Hurricane ever

In recency bias, yes he may. Francis is likely the best hurricane ever. Aho has to maintain 80 points per season for his whole contract just to catch Francis in the same time period (16 seasons), without any discussions about roster quality.

 

[The Faulker 27]

I don't care about Aho being the best Hurricane ever, but let's give some credit where its due.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

In recency bias, yes he may. Francis is likely the best hurricane ever. Aho has to maintain 80 points per season for his whole contract just to catch Francis in the same time period (16 seasons), without any discussions about roster quality.

Francis played 6 seasons for Carolina…

 

[Derailed75]

It’s incredible how underrated Aho is by even our own fans. For some reason people take him for granted. He’ll likely go down as the best Hurricane ever

Id say outside of Ronnie Franchise he already is.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Id say outside of Ronnie Franchise he already is.

E Staal is still better but in about 3 seasons, Aho should pass Staal

 

[bleedgreen]

Notably better offensively than Aho? Normally I don't give a shit about this stuff but...

View attachment 839114

It's worth mentioning Kuzy had the luxury of playing on a much more talented WSH team, not to mention with (arguably) the greatest goal scorer of all time. From what I'm finding 110 of his 400 assists (27.5%) came from OV goals alone.

View attachment 839104

Yeah. I’m sure. At pure offensive skill and at his best? I’m sure.

Francis played 6 seasons for Carolina…

You can separate the team name all you want, no one other than Canes fans who choose not to acknowledge it exists think it actually applies.

I do not underrate Aho in any way.

 

[Svechhammer]

I would hope at this point that the last 2 weeks have taught them that depth and scavenging off the scrap heap searching for fancy stats darlings is no substitute for acquiring actual elite talent.

It's great when all three at once falls in your lap like Kuznetsov, but how often does that happen?

We are really, really good at picking over the scrap heap, so the best thing we can do is hold onto our top 6 (Aho, Guentzel, Svech, Jarvis, Kuz, Necas) and let the front office do their damn thing in rounding out the rest on the heap.

That's when you truly have a team set up like the Brady years Pats.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Yeah. I’m sure. At pure offensive skill and at his best? I’m sure.

To be fair, you didn't say "pure offensive skill". You said "notably better offensively" which has to account for the whole package. Skating, shot, anticipation, finding open areas, hard work, going to the dirty areas, etc... That's all part of offense.

I consider the guy that had four 30G seasons and 4 PPG seasons better than a guy that has zero 30G seasons and 1 PPG season. If you want to say Kuzy's best season is on par with Aho's, that's fine, but "notably better" just doesn't hold water. If you want to say Kuzy has a higher end skillset I won't argue that. He does, but like I said, offense has a lot more to it than Skill-set, or Robbie Schremp would have been one of the best NHLrs.

We don't need any fancy stats or eye test to come to that conclusion. Pure skill is great and an element players and teams need, but it's results that matter.

 

[Daeavorn]

I don't really count Ron Francis he didn't really play for us to begin with. Only 6 seasons at the end of his career. Hard for me to say he's the 'best hurricane ever.'

I'd give that to Rod or Eric atm. They won us a cup.

 

[Svechhammer]

Yeah I'm sorry but the Hurricanes franchise numbers for me begin in 1997. I really don't give much of a crap about what happened in Hartford. Even if you listen to most of the fans up there, that franchise died with the move.

 

[bleedgreen]

Yeah I'm sorry but the Hurricanes franchise numbers for me begin in 1997. I really don't give much of a crap about what happened in Hartford. Even if you listen to most of the fans up there, that franchise died with the move.

You can not give a crap all you want. Doesn’t change a thing about the history or the connection.

 

[AD Skinner]

Brind’Amour is the greatest hurricane. Until they win another cup he is firmly entrenched, and if he’s the one behind the bench for it it just makes him even more so

 

[Identity404]

You can not give a crap all you want. Doesn’t change a thing about the history or the connection.

I think you might have a bit of bias because you were originally a Whalers fan.

I'm in the same boat as @Svechhammer @AhosDatsyukian @Daeavorn , and I think you would find a pretty substantial number of Canes fans who draw a hard line between Hurricanes and Hartford/Carolina franchise records/players. I may just be missing your point, idk...

Francis even played for the Penguins longer than the Hurricanes. If i'm thinking about all time great Hurricanes players, Francis is obviously in the conversation, but there is no chance in my mind that he comes out on top after Aho's career is over.

 

[htdoc]

I certainly was not a Whalers fan originally....

I became a fan when I emigrated here and got the bonus of having an NHL franchise be in my local area (well eventually... had to drive to Greensboro for the first little while haha)

I'm with bleed on this one in terms of it being one franchise and stats of players combine together they dont get treated as different franchises...

It can get a bit murky when comparing other situations around multiple atlanta teams or winnipeg and the new jets versus the old jets that are actually the Coyotes..

But in our case as it relates to Whalers/Hurricanes, it's the same franchise even if it was re-named when it moved here. Any player career stats that bridge the team when it was located in Hartford versus here are added together in my opinion.....

We wear the Whaler jersey every year even now....

So any points Francis got during his original tenure with the Whalers gets added to his stats when he joined and was such an incredible ambassador of the game to introduce it to a whole new market and establish and grow the game here.

As to who is the greatest Whaler/Cane ever, be it purely offensively versus x, y, z, a, b, c measurement, subjectively versus objectively looking at stats etc etc etc... well I'm not going to weigh in on that one. That one could go any which way...

 

[A Star is Burns]

I don't really see the need to be hard line one way or the other. Sometimes I think it's worthwhile to only consider the Hurricanes portion. Other times it's worth considering the franchise as a whole. Obviously, the majority of current Canes fans are typically only going to care about the team as it currently exists for a lot of things.

Also, Aho is as good or better of a #1 C than Kuzy. Certainly not as naturally skilled, but definitely as good and productive otherwise, or better.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think you might have a bit of bias because you were originally a Whalers fan.

I'm in the same boat as @Svechhammer @AhosDatsyukian @Daeavorn , and I think you would find a pretty substantial number of Canes fans who draw a hard line between Hurricanes and Hartford/Carolina franchise records/players. I may just be missing your point, idk...

Francis even played for the Penguins longer than the Hurricanes. If i'm thinking about all time great Hurricanes players, Francis is obviously in the conversation, but there is no chance in my mind that he comes out on top after Aho's career is over.

Of course Canes fans want to distance themselves from their own franchise, you’ve been fighting with people for your identity the whole time. You guys have a pretty huge chip on your shoulder about the topic. Of course I’m a biased Whalers fan. No one in sports avoids the teams past. Here in Colorado they always recognize things in a “franchise” way. There’s no straight just Avs records. All records include the Nordiques. They’ll keep stats on things post move but that’s not the record. Same with all the other teams I’ve seen in hockey, I can’t speak to the other sports but I suspect it’s the same there. While I’m sure as a group we’d love to do it different here….no one actually does. It’s fine you choose to act like it didn’t happen, everyone has their right to do that but that doesn’t make it actually so.

Having Whaler nights and selling the jerseys, celebrating the past for fun and to make a lot of money but then turning around and saying nothing existed before 97? Curious.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Yeah. I’m sure. At pure offensive skill and at his best? I’m sure.


You can separate the team name all you want, no one other than Canes fans who choose not to acknowledge it exists think it actually applies.

I do not underrate Aho in any way.

It's not really the team name but the location. Why would Carolina fans give a crap about what some player did for the franchise before the team moved there? If Hartford ever got another team (unlikely of course), all those team records would revert over to them anyways.

 

[Syrinx]

When you all traded for Guentzel, I told my buddies he'd look really good with Aho. They both think the game at such a high level.

I don't think you all should balk at signing him longer term. Speed is not his thing. He is not super skilled. His game is all positioning (finding the open spots), finding others in the open spots, and not being afraid of the dirty areas. Those don't suffer as much with age.

I actually hope he lands here. He's one of my favorite players ever. Don't tell the Pens board but if he does land here, I'll be buying a #59 canes jersey for when I go to games (except, of course, when they play the Pens and I join in with the rest of the obnoxious Pens fans. ).

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Of course Canes fans want to distance themselves from their own franchise, you’ve been fighting with people for your identity the whole time. You guys have a pretty huge chip in your shoulder about the topic. Of course I’m a biased Whalers fan. No one in sports avoids the teams past. Here in Colorado they always recognize things in a “franchise” way. There’s no straight just Avs records. All records include the Nordiques. They’ll keep stats on things post move but that’s not the record. Same with all the other teams I’ve seen in hockey, I can’t speak to the other sports but I suspect it’s the same there. While I’m sure as a group we’d love to do it different here….no one actually does. It’s fine you choose to act like it didn’t happen, everyone has their right to do that but that doesn’t make it actually so.

Having Whaler nights and selling the jerseys, celebrating the past for fun and to make a lot of money but then turning around and saying nothing existed before 97? Curious.

Oh come on, there’s a middle ground here. Is Ilya Kovalchuk the greatest goalscorer in the history of the Winnipeg Jets? He does hold the franchise record… Dale Hawerchuk, God rest his soul, gotta be one of the greatest Coyotes ever, no?

The middle ground is - of course franchise records stay with the franchise. Ron Francis is the all-time points leader in the history of this franchise, no ifs ands or buts, it’s a statistical fact. But the question of “the greatest Hurricane of all time” is a subjective one, and yes, you can consider the “Hurricanes” part of that when you’re answering the question. So yeah, it’s ok to start questioning “greatest Hurricane of all time” status for Francis when he only was a Hurricane for 6 years. He’s one of the most important Hurricanes, that’s for damn sure. But chill with the “you Canes fans” bit as if you’re not a regular member of the Canes message board here lol.

 

[bleedgreen]

It's not really the team name but the location. Why would Carolina fans give a crap about what some player did for the franchise before the team moved there? If Hartford ever got another team (unlikely of course), all those team records would revert over to them anyways.

Well it gets confusing if another team went there, but no team is ever going there which makes it a poor attempt to dismiss the conversation. I’m not attempted to make you or anyone give a crap. Just pointing out avoiding the topic doesn’t actually make it go away.

 

[the halleJOKEL]

what about andrei loktionov? where does he rank??

 

[bleedgreen]

Oh come on, there’s a middle ground here. Is Ilya Kovalchuk the greatest goalscorer in the history of the Winnipeg Jets? He does hold the franchise record… Dale Hawerchuk, God rest his soul, gotta be one of the greatest Coyotes ever, no?

The middle ground is - of course franchise records stay with the franchise. Ron Francis is the all-time points leader in the history of this franchise, no ifs ands or buts, it’s a statistical fact. But the question of “the greatest Hurricane of all time” is a subjective one, and yes, you can consider the “Hurricanes” part of that when you’re answering the question. So yeah, it’s ok to start questioning “greatest Hurricane of all time” status for Francis when he only was a Hurricane for 6 years. He’s one of the most important Hurricanes, that’s for damn sure. But chill with the “you Canes fans” bit as if you’re not a regular member of the Canes message board here lol.

I haven’t mentioned Francis once and haven’t been part of that conversation at all, so this is a curious post to me!

My conversation has purely been about that the franchise is connected and of course the records reflect that. I’ve had zero opinion on who’s the best Hurricane. Of course I have opinions but it’s not a very passionate subject for me.

When it comes to the long standing argument about the teams history and the biases that exist from that battle there is an obvious difference between me and the group. If you had been any other city I’d be here talking to you guys. I’m not from there. No one ever insulted my culture. The people that were on this board from its start went through a lot of things I never went through. I’m not insulting you by saying “you guys”. I’m respecting the difference. I understand why some of you would be so pissed about the attitudes thrown your way by the sports world in general that you would want separation. I’m respecting that it exists.

Otherwise, of course we’re all on the same side.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

what about andrei loktionov? where does he rank??

He’s not last!