Confirmed with Link: Holland to Arizona for conditional pick

[Ricky Bobby]

I'm not a big fan of this, it never ends well. I wanna trust the GM's personnel choices not the coaches especially when it's a guy with questionable personnel decisions like Babcock, the coach just needs to play the guys. Let the GM GM and let the coach coach.

It's a bit like in that Moneyball film where Pitt keeps acquiring guys and the coach doesn't utilize them the way Pitt wants (so then Pitt trades away the guys the coach has a hard-on for but that won't happen in hockey lol).

Every coach has personnel decisions that fans deem questionable. This isn't something unique to Babcock.

Personally, I feel Babcock is trying to build a culture of playing aggressively and for each other which means sacrificing your body, etc. and that's why Ben Smith is on the team. Stuff like that is contagious and this is a development year.

Holland played with no intensity and I'd even go so far as saying he played scared.

It's the same reason an aggressive youngsters like Soshnikov/Hyman made the team and we got Matt Martin as a UFA and brought back Roman Polak. But a vet like Michalek despite being more talented is in the minors.

Babs wants an aggressive team culture to develop OR looking at from the way Babs doesn't want a culture like what Burke inherited with Stajan, Blake, Kaberle, Tlusty, etc afraid to take hits and not playing for each other (and also what Edmonton had for years).

 

[SeaOfBlue]

trade hunwick

What are you saying?

Re-sign Hunwick.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Wish him luck.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

With so many people in the management group, disagreements over personnel is sort of to be expected, no?

there's a difference between saying there's disagreements over personnel (however there'll be a consensus) - vs. saying there is a disconnect. it sometimes sounds like you (and others but i mean i'm talking to you) are making like there is a divide.

In every organization, there are disconnects, divides and whatever other similar words you might use to describe this. That's because a company consists of human beings, and this is a human trait.

To expect there wouldn't be would be unrealistic.

It will always be this way until humans are replaced with robots and machines.

Whether there is one here, who knows? It would seem strange not to consider it as a possibility.

At a minimum, extending Holland and then moving him a few months later would have to be considered a little unusual.

 

[Canada4Gold]

wow colborne had more value than holland. Hopefully he gets resigned or traded. Got to stack dem 2018 picks.

Fun fact: Colborne got a hat trick in his first game this year, and has gotten 1 point since(an assist in the 4th game).

Only on a 2 year 2.5 million contract so I can't imagine the Avs are angry they signed that yet but still in point in 22 games and 0 in the last 19

 

[Macallan18]

trade hunwick

wrong thread. But I would give up a low pick to get rid of him. If they took Polak too.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

At least it's one less headache. We don't get a lot out of 6th round pick as much as I would expect - Vesey, Mattinen, Desrocher and Walker aren't super special - but they can look at guys that they may have taken in the 7th round, where they are doing well (Engvall, Korostelev, Chebykin, etc.)

 

[Menzinger]

that gets an astrisk because Shanahan was here. lol I swear to all that's chocolate, if Shanahan wasn't here, we're not drafting Nylander (OR Ehlers).



He had a shot. 3 games. he was okay. nothing special, and that's my point. It's one thing if it was like we got someone you know. maybe they thought something - they saw him practice and in game and went "meh - we've got better in the Marlies" not everything has to be so nefarious etc. sort of like "hey - this is on sale, let's try it." you buy it and then you get a refund.

i also don't think EVERYTHING is running through the stats. (just like i don't think everything is run through "eye test") they could NOT like him, but again it's not like Smith is HURTING the team. And it's not like he's staying here forever.

there's a difference between saying there's disagreements over personnel (however there'll be a consensus) - vs. saying there is a disconnect. it sometimes sounds like you (and others but i mean i'm talking to you) are making like there is a divide. Nor do i think the people they try out is "better' than who is here.. a majority of whom we don't like is gone anyway. It just feels everytime people lament over Corrado or Grrifith (and now Holland) i have to double check and make sure we're not talking about some better version i forgot.

I'm sorry, three a games is not a valid sample size to evaluate any player and I think disconnect/disagreement is just splitting hairs. You can say these little decisions don't matter, by eventually lots of smaller mistakes add up to larger ones longer term.

But anyways, looks like this is a agree to disagree situation. I see multiple potential disconnects/disagreements so far within the front office. Doesn't mean it's going to destroy the rebuild, evey organization has them.

 

[bobermay]

So, the only way the Leafs can't get a pick is if the Arizona doesn't send Holland a Qualifying Offer?

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

So, the only way the Leafs can't get a pick is if the Arizona doesn't send Holland a Qualifying Offer?

yep. if Holland becomes a UFA (via Arizona) next summer, we get nothing.

 

[Macallan18]

yep. if Holland becomes a UFA (via Arizona) next summer, we get nothing.

no one can take away the roster spot we gained!!!!

 

[Nithoniniel]

I don't think disagreements are necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I see it as the result of having a multi-faceted organisation capable of covering multiple perspectives. The only way to avoid disagreements would be to have a one-dimensional staff.

Getting rid of Holland wasn't a mistake IMO. He's gotten plenty of chances over the years, and seems to have solidified as a piece not quite good enough in any role, any situation. I'm comfortable organizing that in the category of 'don't matter'.

 

[Drew75]

Then why pick up a guy like Griffith without him even getting half a shot in the lineup?

I don't think the group is dysfunctional but I see enough smoke to see there are likely some differences of opinion on multiple players. For example, I can't imagine the Leafs stats guys liking Smith one bit.

With so many people in the management group, disagreements over personnel is sort of to be expected, no?

It feels a bit like Lou is throwing spaghetti on the wall. He wants to give Babs lots of tools and options, and if it works, great, if not - they're willing to eat the cash and bury a guy. I'm not worried, I more see that we're in a transition year, there is no playoff pressure, so if you take a chance on guys like Corrado / Griffiths, eventually you may strike gold.

I'm sure there are parts of Griffiths game that the scouts liked, but he didn't work in Babs' system and / or couldn't beat out some of the kids for playing time. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I also don't all the comparisons with guys like Holland, Griffiths, and Smith. They are COMPLETELY different players with different skill sets. If Holland could play a strong defensive role, he'd still be here. If Griffiths could outplay Brown or out hustle Hyman / Shosh - he'd still be here.

Each player is a tool in the tool-box. Some, like Matthews - are a power drill that can be used in almost every situation. Some, like Smith, are one of those weird little devices with a specific purpose. They needed a RIGHT SHOOTING center to take defensive zone face-offs. We're beyond the casual arm-chair GM stuff here - we're talking a specific need for specific situations in games. The Leafs didn't have that tool, one appeared for free on the waiver wire, the picked up the tool. If Holland could do it, he'd be here.

 

[Walshy7]

no one can take away the roster spot we gained!!!!

Or take our $1.3 million cap space we gained (pro rated we paid a 1/4 of it I guess)

 

[Rhynne]

yep. if Holland becomes a UFA (via Arizona) next summer, we get nothing.

Holland is an RFA next summer actually

 

[Rhynne]

I know but it's 200 meaningless games. I'd rather have taken a chance on the second , as I'm sure you would have

The Ducks took 6'4" 168lbs defenseman Marcus Pettersson with the 2nd round, 38th overall pick they got from us in the Holland trade. Anyone know anything about him?

Other players we could have drafted had we kept the pick or if it had remained a 3rd rounder(thanks Randy...) include:

Brandon Montour(D) - 55th overall by Anaheim
Christian Dvorak(LW) - 58th overall by Arizona
Nikita Tryamkin(D) - 66th overall by Vancouver

Ilya Sorokin(G) was also taken 78th overall by the Islanders after we drafted Valiev at 68th with our 3rd rounder

 

[Canada4Gold]

So, the only way the Leafs can't get a pick is if the Arizona doesn't send Holland a Qualifying Offer?

I would assume we also get nothing if they waive him before then.

Holland is an RFA next summer actually

Yeah but a player o0nly becomes RFA if they are given their qualifying offer. The team can choose not to do so and the player becomes UFA. We did that with Sam Carrick and Percy this offseason.

 

[Diatomic]

Trading for him in the first place was a doozy. We had a bunch of centers injured but I dont see why you give up a 2nd and more for short term relief at C. Thank god nonis is done

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Trading for him in the first place was a doozy. We had a bunch of centers injured but I dont see why you give up a 2nd and more for short term relief at C. Thank god nonis is done

Well Holland was 22. I'm sure they expected more than short term relief. He did give us a few nice seasons, but he wasn't a fit here anymore.

Who cares. One more pick (possibly) and one less player who doesn't fit here anymore. We should keep on going with Michalek, Greening, etc.

 

[Diatomic]

Well Holland was 22. I'm sure they expected more than short term relief. He did give us a few nice seasons, but he wasn't a fit here anymore.

Holland was 22 and he was already an expendable asset in the ducks system. From the moment he came here I knew he wouldn't amount to anything significant. The man was playing on the 1st line while bozak was recovering, setting up a player for failure. Nonis should have just sent a 5th for some struggling vet C instead of acquiring Holland.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm sorry, three a games is not a valid sample size to evaluate any player and I think disconnect/disagreement is just splitting hairs. You can say these little decisions don't matter, by eventually lots of smaller mistakes add up to larger ones longer term.

But anyways, looks like this is a agree to disagree situation. I see multiple potential disconnects/disagreements so far within the front office. Doesn't mean it's going to destroy the rebuild, evey organization has them.

a few questions

did Seth Griffith show you anything in Boston (or in the AHL) that it warranted them making a mistake?
(i honestly don't hear any Boston fans lamenting over losing him).

did Seth Griffith show you anything in 3 games that he warranted another look?

is Seth Griffith showing you anything in Florida that makes you think we messed up (OTHER than the fact that he's getting ice time?

Like i said (and I agree with Drew). it easily could be just seeing if options work. you're also ignoring practices etc. sometimes with it's just a nab - see what he has and if he has some kind of spark, toss him along. Maybe they hoped he stood out or showed something amazing that we might not have in the Marlies.

For me. disagreeing is what we do (laugh) but we can always find a solid footing or the other side of the story, even if it's an agree to disagree - because i DO see what point you are making that SG could have had more time (or Holland could have had more of a chance) but sometimes (in my estimation) - you just KNOW. they SHOW you something - and you do coaches interviews etc and maybe something wasn't clicking). Maybe they screwed up. we'll see.

A Disconnect to me basically means Burke + Wilson. Burke wanted this specific thing - Wilson did a specific thing. and they never got to a mutual point. AT ALL. they both said that after. Or there's a disconnect between ownership + management. I don't think that exists between Babcock and Lou and Shanahan. do they disagree. probably (ie: I bet corrado has a champion, which is why he hasn't asked to be traded - holland. not so much). suggesting there's a Disconnect between management and coaching to me spells major major trouble

i mean. we can still agree to disagree - but that's where i'm coming from with it.

 

[Mats13]

They weren't useless. Holland has been on pace for a couple 30ish point seasons. Griffith was also coming out of the NHL looking to be an NHL scorer too and has been getting icetime with he Panthers.

Steckle sometimes had a face off win % of over 60% some nights with the Leafs, didn't start him from being a plug.

Why do you care so much about dime a dozen players?

There's plenty of players that can do the things Holland and Griffith do. Seriously, no one will even notice they're gone (except for you apparently).

 

[cupcrazyman]

Another draft pick to stock the cupboard & if Arizona gets last,the Leafs pick will be the 1st of said round.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't think disagreements are necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I see it as the result of having a multi-faceted organisation capable of covering multiple perspectives. The only way to avoid disagreements would be to have a one-dimensional staff.

Getting rid of Holland wasn't a mistake IMO. He's gotten plenty of chances over the years, and seems to have solidified as a piece not quite good enough in any role, any situation. I'm comfortable organizing that in the category of 'don't matter'.

Absolutely. If there's no disagreement in an organization it's probably a dictatorship. Much better to disagree, discuss, argue, learn, grow ...

 

[Daisy Jane]

Absolutely. If there's no disagreement in an organization it's probably a dictatorship. Much better to disagree, discuss, argue, learn, grow ...

but i wanna rule the world