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Holl or Dermott

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Who do the Leafs expose?

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    155
I see them exposing Dermott, but I'd expose Holl.

- Holl's numbers since Feb 1 were garbage, and IMO clearly being carried by Muzzin as a top-4.
- Dermott's underlying numbers are very strong and is our best rush defender
- Younger
- Now that it's signed, cheaper

Just seems like poor asset management to expose the 25-year old versus the 30-year old.
 
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SeenSchenn2 said:
I see them exposing Dermott, but I'd expose Holl.

- Holl's numbers since Feb 1 were garbage, and IMO clearly being carried by Muzzin as a top-4.
- Dermott's underlying numbers are very strong and is our best rush defender
- Younger
- Now that it's signed, cheaper

Just seems like poor asset management to expose the 25-year old versus the 30-year old.
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Interesting look.
Not a lot of faith in Dubas I take it?
 
I want Neither of them back next year. Espcially Holl. I hate his ass
 
Dermott all day.

  • 5 years younger, 500k cheaper
  • Significantly better than Holl was at the same age
  • Can play both sides
  • Excellent transitional defense
  • Sneaky physical
  • Best skater on the blueline
  • Primed for a top-4 role, just needs to be given the opportunity (could easily replicate Holl's impact if carried by Muzzin too)

Anyone who "doesn't see it with Dermott", which you hear constantly on here, doesn't know how to evaluate young defenseman. He's been given zero opportunity offensively in this org. despite being a PP QB at every other level, including a championship AHL team. His defensive growth has been steady and his skating has become better than any other D on the team. He's carried the 3rd pair for years now until Bogosian was brought in and the only knock is his giveaways under pressure (see: every young D). He has the tools to be a McDonagh-lite as a great complementary piece for any pair.

Developing young D is a turbulent process. Just look at how people are already turning on Sandin after anointing him the next Kaberle 3 months ago. New shiny toy syndrome.
 
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Expose Dermott, keep Holl.

Holl has played as a top4 defenseman and done well since he broke into the league. Dermott has done very well on our third pair and looked okay enough in the few stretches of top4 minutes that he's played for us. But he was our #6 this year, taking a step back and ultimately losing his job to Sandin. Justin Holl is a #4D making 2m with term, Dermott is a #6D making 1.5m with the same term. The Leafs are looking to compete, keep the better player, it's pretty simple.

Dermott has had two years to steal Holl's job, but the gap has only grown between the two. I still think Dermott can be a top4 defenseman in the league for a long time, but we're comparing him to a guy who IS a top4 defenseman right now. The only way I see this discussion being relevant would be if Holl cost quite a bit more.
 
ya I'd expose Holl. In fact, I would try trading Holl before the expansion while his value is where it is. I really think Holl had a great year last year, but I just am not sure I can see him repeating that. I'd love to see Dermott slide up the lineup and the Leafs resign Bogo. It will open up a roster spot for Lilly as well as the 7D which he more than deserves. Given the fact that we have zero draft capital this year and next, we could really use this. I would think that Holl could fetch a 2nd rounder given his team friendly deal and level of play last year.

This scenario would mean we would have to resign Bogo prior to the expansion draft to meet the requirements I believe. But I really think it would not be a risk to expose Bogo as he is likely not going to be selected by Seattle.

Rielly - Brodie
Muzz - Dermott
Sandin - Bogo
Lilly
 
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It'd be pretty silly to expose the guy your coach plays 21 minutes per game over the guy he plays 13. I wish we'd have given Dermott a shot to move up the lineup sometime in the last four years. Seattle might give him a proper shot at a top-four role though.
 
LeafGrief said:
Expose Dermott, keep Holl.

Holl has played as a top4 defenseman and done well since he broke into the league. Dermott has done very well on our third pair and looked okay enough in the few stretches of top4 minutes that he's played for us. But he was our #6 this year, taking a step back and ultimately losing his job to Sandin. Justin Holl is a #4D making 2m with term, Dermott is a #6D making 1.5m with the same term. The Leafs are looking to compete, keep the better player, it's pretty simple.

Dermott has had two years to steal Holl's job, but the gap has only grown between the two. I still think Dermott can be a top4 defenseman in the league for a long time, but we're comparing him to a guy who IS a top4 defenseman right now. The only way I see this discussion being relevant would be if Holl cost quite a bit more.
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Age and skating ability might play into it as well for Dermy. Dermy also LHD and was never paired with Muzzin or played much on the RS in order to battle Holl for his spot. I keep the younger kid who is the much better skater and still has some upside.
 
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Korg said:
It'd be pretty silly to expose the guy your coach plays 21 minutes per game over the guy he plays 13. I wish we'd have given Dermott a shot to move up the lineup sometime in the last four years. Seattle might give him a proper shot at a top-four role though.
Click to expand...

What if the coach isn't that good at coaching?
 
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egd27 said:
What if the coach isn't that good at coaching?
Click to expand...

Then the GM should fire him. Dubas and Keefe were basically sold to us as a duo, I assume they're mostly on the same page. I think there's a good chance that Dermott ends up better than Holl, but it won't be here playing the same bottom-pair LD spot year after year.
 
Korg said:
Then the GM should fire him. Dubas and Keefe were basically sold to us as a duo, I assume they're mostly on the same page. I think there's a good chance that Dermott ends up better than Holl, but it won't be here playing the same bottom-pair LD spot year after year.
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How very disheartening.
 
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Dermott has the longer term upside (younger and still an RFA afterwards). Retaining him over Holl still seems like the tough move to make with the team playing for right now though. Keep in mind that it is far from guaranteed that either player will be the one ultimately lost to Seattle.
 
Saint Blue said:
Dermott all day.

  • 5 years younger, 500k cheaper
  • Significantly better than Holl was at the same age
  • Can play both sides
  • Excellent transitional defense
  • Sneaky physical
  • Best skater on the blueline
  • Primed for a top-4 role, just needs to be given the opportunity (could easily replicate Holl's impact if carried by Muzzin too)

Anyone who "doesn't see it with Dermott", which you hear constantly on here, doesn't know how to evaluate young defenseman. He's been given zero opportunity offensively in this org. despite being a PP QB at every other level, including a championship AHL team. His defensive growth has been steady and his skating has become better than any other D on the team. He's carried the 3rd pair for years now until Bogosian was brought in and the only knock is his giveaways under pressure (see: every young D). He has the tools to be a McDonagh-lite as a great complementary piece for any pair.

Developing young D is a turbulent process. Just look at how people are already turning on Sandin after anointing him the next Kaberle 3 months ago. New shiny toy syndrome.
Click to expand...

All of this. The tools are there for him to develop into a defensive stud (he's already solid) and even some sneaky offense if given the opportunity. He has shown flashes of offensive awareness when the puck is on his stick in the O zone.

We already know Holl's ceiling. Dermott's is higher.
 
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Holl is quite easily the better player. Older, more salary but definitely better. If we weren't so screwed with the cap we protect Holl. Given Dermotts new 1.5M aav, no chance in hell they don't protect him. He's on a slightly cheaper deal and still an RFA. I love Holl, but this leaves him as the odd man out. I hope Seattle takes Kerfoot..we might have to pay them to draft Kerfoot but it's probably worth it.
 
Sandin can instantly replace Dermott.
I even think Ben Hutton would be a decent replacement for Dermott.
 
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