HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans: Rules Discussion thread (see post 205 for new rules draft)

[Theokritos]

If you exclude all players who played in the NHL, this could be a really fascinating project covering new material and players. Otherwise, what a boring duplication of the other HoH projects and a huge waste of time.

Really?

19 non-NHL Europeans in total were ranked on the HOH's lists.

In addition, Milan Novy/Viacheslav Starshinov (C), Vladimir Lutchenko/Alexander Ragulin (D), and Vladimir Dzurilla (G) were discussed, making there a total of 24 non-NHL Euros (by my definition) who were discussed during the positional rankings.

So if we're doing a top 40 we're going to discuss those 24 (in all likeliness) plus 16 others (to make it 40) plus maybe 10 others who come up in the last round but fail to make the final cut. So we're going to discuss just as many new players as guys we've already had in the other projects.

And if we're doing a top 50 or 60 it's going to be even more of course.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think maybe Hawkman's point is that this project would start to become a waste of time if we start arguing about NHL players like Hasek, Sundin, Selanne, and Heatley because of their international records

 

[Theokritos]

I think maybe Hawkman's point is that this project would start to become a waste of time if we start arguing about NHL players like Hasek, Sundin, Selanne, and Heatley because of their international records

If that's his point I actually agree with him. I thought he was calling for exclusion of Fetisov, Makarov and the likes. Relatively well known players discussed before who happen to have played in the NHL. Hašek and Selänne? There is no point debating them in my eyes.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I think maybe Hawkman's point is that this project would start to become a waste of time if we start arguing about NHL players like Hasek, Sundin, Selanne, and Heatley because of their international records

This is a discussion forum and Heatley is very much a clutch performer internationally in a Claude Lemieux type of way and deserves praise here. First we discuss like we do here, then we vote. So lets put the ballots in on how we gonna do this project, if anyone cant stand being in the minority then this is not the place to be.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looks like there are three options then. Ordered from least permissive to most permissive.

1. No players who played in the NHL at all.

2. Players who had their primes in Europe only (Makarov, Nedomansky, Fetisov eligible).

3. All players including career NHLers eligible, to be judged on what they did outside the NHL only (Selanne, Heatley, Sundin, Hasek also eligible).

(To be decided later - if there is a cut off point for players who are "too early").

Any other options?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to distract, but what does Dany Heatley have to do with this...?

 

[MXD]

Looks like there are three options then. Ordered from least permissive to most permissive.

1. No players who played in the NHL at all.

2. Players who had their primes in Europe only (Makarov, Nedomansky, Fetisov eligible).

3. All players including career NHLers eligible, to be judged on what they did outside the NHL only (Selanne, Heatley, Sundin, Hasek also eligible).

(To be decided later - if there is a cut off point for players who are "too early").

Any other options?

1.5 : Include players whose time spent in NA was extremely insignificant by any standard.

By this criteria, Larionov would be out. If they gather significant support, players like Ulf Sterner, Udo Kiessling would be in, and others like Krutov and Helminen would be debatable (but probably in, depending on wording).

Also, would just including a " trained in Europe " clause be enough to avoid any Heatley confusion, in either case ?

 

[MXD]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to distract, but what does Dany Heatley have to do with this...?

German-born, very good in Intl' comp.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to distract, but what does Dany Heatley have to do with this...?

If we're going to allow Sundin based strictly on his international accomplishments, why exclude Heatley who was a great WC player?

Basically, I'd prefer option 2 (primes in Europe), but if we are including clear NHLers who also have strong international records, Heatley pretty much has to be eligible, unless we are going to really add an arbitrary distinction.

1.5 : Include players whose time spent in NA was extremely insignificant by any standard.

By this criteria, Larionov would be out. If they gather significant support, players like Ulf Sterner, Udo Kiessling would be in, and others like Krutov and Helminen would be debatable (but probably in, depending on wording).

Also, would just including a " trained in Europe " clause be enough to avoid any Heatley confusion, in either case ?

I really don't see a project where some members of the Green Unit are eligible, and others aren't to be particularly viable, to be honest .

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

On another note, should probably decide whether Seth Martin is eligible. He's kind of a special case.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hmm, well, for the record, I'd have no interest in having players like Sundin or Heatley being a part of this any way. I think it just distracts from its purpose personally. And when did Heatley move to Canada? I thought he was like 3 or 4...

 

[Theokritos]

On another note, should probably decide whether Seth Martin is eligible. He's kind of a special case.

What would be the rationale to make him eligible but exclude Fran Huck, Harry Smith and so on?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What would be the rationale to make him eligible but exclude Fran Huck, Harry Smith and so on?

Rational for different eligibility? Probably none. Rationale for including Martin and not those other two guys? Seemed to have been a bigger star.

 

[begbeee]

1. I don´t get the Heatly example. We´re gonna judge europeans in hockey sense (i.e. Mikita is out of question). Heatly is Canadian and vast majority of his career is connected to North America.

2. Eligibility should be based on a seasons when player played major part of it in a European league.
That exclude players like Sundin whose WC and OG achievments are connected to NHL part of his career.
That will not exclude achievments of Peter Stastny pre-1980.

It´s the most fair format I can think of.
It will be harder in input phase, but the results will be far more accurate.

Bottom line is if 4 pre-prime seasons of Stastny are enough for him to crack TOP-whatever of European players. If not he is not one of the best european-based player, which is perfectly fine and conclusion is that his career success is based on NHL career or mix of both careers.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes. ^

 

[begbeee]

On another note, should probably decide whether Seth Martin is eligible. He's kind of a special case.

Am I only one here who dont get these examples out of nowhere?

To be honest first I had to google who Seth Martin is.
1. He was born in Canada (not part of Europe)
2. He is Canadian (not European nationality)
3. He didn´t play in Europe at all

Exactly why he should be even considered for list of Non NHL-Europeans?

The significant part of users in this thread try to do List of Best IIHF WC and OG players. Not Non-NHL Europeans.

 

[Michael Farkas]

With all due respect to TDMM and not to pile on, but I thought I was the only one confused by the inclusion of Seth Martin especially and even Dany Heatley...

"non-NHL Europeans" - Heatley, Sundin, Seth Martin, etc. need not apply, in my opinion...those players are NHLers and/or not European...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I brought up Seth Martin because in one sense it seems wrong that we are probably going to recognize Viktor Konovalenko, despite Martin being a clearly superior goalie playing at the same time. Martin was the idol of both Tretiak and Holecek, more influential in Europe than in Canada.

Frankly, I think including someone like Martin fits more within the scope of what we're trying to do than someone like Stastny or Hasek; I thought it was worth at least bringing him up.

And this is the "Rules Discussion Thread," it's not like we can't tweak the name of the project if need be.

But maybe it's poor Seth's fate to be forgotten - not really an NHL player, not a European.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He did get scant consideration for the goalie project and he was the first overall pick of the MLD (I think it was) by yours truly a couple years back...not bad for a guy played in a second-tier Western league his whole life, excepting 30 NHL games, and some non-best on best tournaments with competition that was really just beginning to crystallize...

I see your point, but I think Martin will just have to be swept up by a different project one day down the line...I really don't think he belongs here...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Seth Martin

Seth Martin definitely is worthy of discussion but then so are Don Head, Jack McCartan, Willard Ikola. All served to bridge the gap between North American amateur and European hockey. Three of the above went on to play in the NHL which would serve as contemporary comparisons to NHL hockey of the early sixties.

Likewise Bobby Rousseau, Tommy Williams, Darryl Sly, 1960 Olympians who played in the NHL as did European Olympians Jaroslav Jirik and Ulf Sterner.

Seth Martin, Don Head, cannot look at them without looking at Canadian Senior hackey post WWII to 1967.

 

[begbeee]

I brought up Seth Martin because in one sense it seems wrong that we are probably going to recognize Viktor Konovalenko, despite Martin being a clearly superior goalie playing at the same time. Martin was the idol of both Tretiak and Holecek, more influential in Europe than in Canada.

Frankly, I think including someone like Martin fits more within the scope of what we're trying to do than someone like Stastny or Hasek; I thought it was worth at least bringing him up.

And this is the "Rules Discussion Thread," it's not like we can't tweak the name of the project if need be.

But maybe it's poor Seth's fate to be forgotten - not really an NHL player, not a European.

Tweak project name to fit there likes of Seth Martin, I´m missing something here?
The first intend was to do list of the best Europeans. Now you push it more to WCh/OG Greats.
Hasek/Stastny fits into this project light years more than Seth Martin.
I´m comfortable with Stastny so I´m going to use him as an example according to my rules:
WC finnishes: 1,1,2,2,
OG finnishes: 6 (Lake Placid), - Lillehammer doesnt count as he played in NHL that season
CC: 2,
CSSR league champion: 1x
Best player in CSSR: 1x
I don´t know if it´s enough to crack the top 40/50/60 but having in the top list of Europeans someone like Seth Martin, with:
WC:1
Best WC goalie: 3x
Having him in list of best Europeans as a canadian playing career in North American league is ... a joke?
I´m out.

Howgh.

 

[Pominville Knows]

But maybe it's poor Seth's fate to be forgotten - not really an NHL player, not a European.

Too true, fact is that most us us over here rank players more or less differently then virtually all north americans do becouse of the WHC and Olympics. And when it comes to Heatley and the likes it is my opinion in a similar manner that he did come over here and brought joy to the european hockey fans in a way that the NHL just cant do becouse of the time zone differential. Only a small group of die hard fans have the energy to follow the NHL and back it up by watching games in the middle of the night. We find it great that NHL players are coming over to the WHC so we get to see them, and their legend too a high degree stems from playing here much like Seth Martin did. Mats Sundin is becouse of that right up there with Lidström amongst swedish fans that are not NHL-fanatics becouse he played and excelled more here, he is very often brought up by those fans when remembering hockey's past with a fire burning in their eyes. Even though i follow the NHL more than most over here i am of the opinion that Sundin is on par with Forsberg and Lidström overall on our golden generation, much to NHL fanatics dislike i must add but its just a fact to me so that they just need to accept.

Yes i must stand by Sundin's side here and try to get him into this project, he is a legend that is relatively slighted by people in North America.

When it comes to the Heatley case i'm not sure that his resumé here would take him very far anyway, he is a classic case of someone lacking longivety and his best-on-best record leaves something to be desired.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Tweak project name to fit there likes of Seth Martin, I´m missing something here?
The first intend was to do list of the best Europeans. Now you push it more to WCh/OG Greats.
Hasek/Stastny fits into this project light years more than Seth Martin.
I´m comfortable with Stastny so I´m going to use him as an example according to my rules:
WC finnishes: 1,1,2,2,
OG finnishes: 6 (Lake Placid), - Lillehammer doesnt count as he played in NHL that season
CC: 2,
CSSR league champion: 1x
Best player in CSSR: 1x
I don´t know if it´s enough to crack the top 40/50/60 but having in the top list of Europeans someone like Seth Martin, with:
WC:1
Best WC goalie: 3x
Having him in list of best Europeans as a canadian playing career in North American league is ... a joke?
I´m out.

Howgh.

I guess it depends on whether the "non-NHL" or "Europeans" part is more important to stick to strictly.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Valeri Kharlamov
Vladislav Tretiak
Vsevolod Bobrov
Anatoli Firsov
Boris Mikhailov
Vladimir Petrov
Alexander Yakushev
Nikolai Sologubov
Alexander Ragulin
Valeri Vasiliev
Alexander Maltsev
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Boris Mayorov

 

[Sanf]

If we add players like Hasek and Stastny can we really quarantee that their NHL career isn´t going to affect on the voting. I am guessing that their NHL career is going to come to discussions at some point. Similarly players like Loob or Rautakallio who spent part of their prime in NHL. I believe that they are going to get unfair advantage from that they have "proved" themselves in NHL. But I guess I´m fine with it if people really believe that it would work.

If people know Konovalenko,Holmqvist and Ylönen they probably know Seth Martin too. I don´t believe that he is forgotten in anyway. Some other names listed in here are. Someone could make a case that Harry Smith was better than his Soviet opponents, but I rarely do see his name mentioned in anywhere. I think that these names has to come up during this project, but I don´t believe that they should be eligible. Atleast the Europeans in here would need heavy info package about these players before the project if they are included.

I think I asked this before in somewhere, but how about the UK/Canadians like Jimmy Foster? He did play part of his career in Europe and represented European country in international tournaments, but he isn´t exactly a European.