HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[SmellOfVictory]

funny that he thinks the omission of Osgood and not Cujo was the grevious mistake. I wanted a more objective criteria to the list than "he was drafted at spot x in the All Time Draft" and 1 2nd team all star would bring in a ton of guys who would never be considered. I might just add the top goalies in terms of career wins so modern goalies like Cujo, Vernon, and Osgood who played for a long time at a high level but never recorded individual awards are captured

I don't think Vernon or Osgood have a chance of making a top 40 list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think Vernon or Osgood have a chance of making a top 40 list.

Maybe not, but everyone participating is submitting their top 60 for discussion

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Found a mistake in the AST voting table...It says Dave Kerr finished 2nd twice, it should only be once.

EDIT: Also, one of Kerr's 4th place finishes should be a 3rd. Both mistakes have been fixed in the OP

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Found a mistake in the AST voting table...It says Dave Kerr finished 2nd twice, it should only be once.

EDIT: Also, one of Kerr's 4th place finishes should be a 3rd. Both mistakes have been fixed in the OP

Kerr's tough for me to rate. His all-star record is attractive, but competiton in the late 30s between Gardiner's death (which coincided with the natural declines of Worters, Hainsworth, Roach, and Connell) and the emergence of Frank Brimsek was absolutely atrocious - probably even worse than the mid 80s

 

[seventieslord]

Kerr's tough for me to rate. His all-star record is attractive, but competiton in the late 30s between Gardiner's death (which coincided with the natural declines of Worters, Hainsworth, Roach, and Connell) and the emergence of Frank Brimsek was absolutely atrocious - probably even worse than the mid 80s

I agree. that was a very weak point for goalies. Really good for other positions though!

 

[tarheelhockey]

I agree. that was a very weak point for goalies. Really good for other positions though!

Funny how often those trends parallel each other.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree. that was a very weak point for goalies. Really good for other positions though!

Meh, the late 30s (post Great Depression) seems a pretty weak time for forwards too. Superstars like Howie Morenz, Charlie Conacher, Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, and Nels Stewart really weren't replaced until after World War 2. The forward talent doesn't seem to have taken a hit to the quite the same extent goalies did though. And it was a pretty good time for defensemen

 

[Theokritos]

I should add Modry to the Europeans list above.

But he won't be in my top 60 - IMO, he's the Tom Paton of Europe - the best goalie when the sport was still in his infancy.

Not that I would put Modrý in the top 60, but they started playing Canadian style hockey in Bohemia (later Czech Republic) 40 years before his time, so infancy is not the right term, especially when his teammates Vladimír Zábrodský and Jaroslav Drobný were already sought after for NHL tryouts by the New York Rangers and the Boston Bruins.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Why is Thomas a trick? He's pretty safely in my top 60 now. Should he not be?

You make a good point about Giguere's pads, though I'm not sure how to downgrade him for that though. Do we also downgrade Luongo and Lundqvist for their giant pads? Do we penalize Tony Esposito for using a "cheater" between his legs that was later banned?

I really don't care where goalies were drafted. I do care that he had 2 Smythe-worthy playoffs, and was a good starter for a long time, picking up the odd Vezina votes here and there. When I mentioned Miller, Giguere, Osgood, and Turco, I was talking about guys I was struggling to add to my top 60, and wanted to see if any stuck out enough to include

I think Thomas is exactly the type of goalie you want to avoid having on this list. He's clearly just a product of Julien...couldn't get an NHL job for more than 10 years after he was drafted, didn't he get a tryout for the 1999 Oilers? And couldn't beat out Salo, Shtalenikov, Essensa, etc. ...finally grabs a spot with Boston (pre-Julien/Chara) and is horrendous, regarded very poorly (well less than even a scrub like Raycroft)...then all of a sudden Julien and Chara get there and exactly in that time frame (which includes losing his job to a rookie, so in all, 3 seasons that ranked above average or better [2 of which far better, of course]) and he's a top 50 goalie of all time? That's a mighty interesting precedent that's being set there...

Surely a top-75 list would feature Roman Cechmanek, would it not?

I've brought it up before, but as a Devils fan, I'd feel you could relate the best...you know how much flack Marty gets for being a "product of the system" ...but could you imagine if in the heart of his prime, he lost his job to a young Finnish rookie (let's make up a name and call him Ari Ahonen...) and Ahonen led the league in GAA and save pct. and the whole nine in that one season...how much damage would it do to Brodeur's legacy? Can't you see the giant blue and red neon signs pointing directly at that season while a man clad in a Mark Messier jersey parades around with a sign that says "I told you so" on it? That's not hard to imagine...

You're more than welcome to downgrade Espo, Lundqvist, Luongo, etc. for having larger-than-needed equipment...I'd encourage it, as long as it's even across the board relative to the rest of the league. None appear to be quite the offender that Giguere was, but yes, that certainly can be a minor part of the discussion. What Giguere did in 2003 was deemed heroic, I'd call it unsportsmanlike at best...his fraudulence was confirmed in a game that you should know all too well...



Fast forward to 1:18, turn on sound. That's a disgrace, I know there's a couple of old goalies on here that would get an ulcer from watching that...he didn't even flinch...

Giguere may have been one of five (or so) contenders for the Conn Smythe in 2007...maybe...and in 2003, I didn't think he was God's gift to goaltending like popular opinion dictated at the time...3 of his 5 shutouts came against one of the lower scoring (lowest?) playoff teams in Minnesota in an all-night trap-a-rama...then he went on to surrender some 20 goals (or thereabouts) when the chips were down in the Finals (unlike Brodeur, who got 3 shutouts in the Finals, when it mattered most)...like Thomas, cute story, overhyped by the increasingly faulty media...like Thomas couldn't hold his head above water anywhere else other than the perfect conditions (defensive coaching + HHOF defenseman/men)...like Thomas, Giguere was regarded higher by the media than the GMs...

Giguere:
2003 - Media: Hart trophy vote, 8th in AS voting (6 voters out of 60 had him on ballot - 10%); GMs: 9th in Vezina (2 voters out of 30 on ballot - 6.67%)

2008 - Media: 1st place vote for Lady Byng, 3rd in AS voting; GMs: 9th in Vezina

Thomas:
2009 - With basically no competition with the goalie awards...Media: 103 of 131 first place votes (78.6%); GMs: 22 of 30 first place votes (73.3%).

2011 - Media: 92 of 125 first place votes (73.6%), 97.6% of ballots; GMs: 17 of 30 first place votes (56.7%), 86.7% of ballots.

I mean, you'd think after the season and the fanfare that Thomas got in 2011 (record breaking*) that he would have been a shoo-in universally...but just a touch over half of the league's GMs even considered him the league's best goalie that year...and 4 out of 30 didn't even consider him top-3 in the league that year! That's odd...no?

It's not an attack on these names, as much as it's a yellow flag of caution for the last 15 years of goalies...very easy to get sucked in...

It seems that the difference in talent levels between goalies today isn't nearly (no where close) as big as it was in 1987, 1977, etc. The difference between goaltenders now isn't so much the talent but the consistency in which they can bring their top talent to the forefront...look at a goalie like Marc-Andre Fleury...technical skill, he has to rank as one of the best goalies in the league...it's the consistency in which he can bring that game-stealing nature to the rink every night that makes his stats somewhat questionable.

But how big of a difference is there talent wise between Jonas Hiller and Jimmy Howard? It's really that great of a gap? I wouldn't guess so, I would just guess that Hiller doesn't play for as strong of a defensive team anymore and Jimmy Howard played behind Nicklas Lidstrom...

Brian Elliott went from the unlikely position of being one of the worst goalies in the league with Ottawa and maybe on his way out of the league in 2011, but then broke the record* for save pct. and became statistically the best goalie in the league in 2012 because he practiced a little harder in the 3-month offseason and had a protein shake or two? Seems unlikely...I'd say that playing behind Ken Hitchcock helped him...

Goalies, individually, aren't as important to a team's success as they were 20 years ago...

Look at the goaltending matchups in the Finals over the years, the value of goaltending is at its lowest ever...

1967: Sawchuk/Bower vs. Vachon/Worsley
68: Worsley/Hall
69: Vachon vs. Hall/Plante
70: Cheevers vs. Hall/Plante/Wakely
71: Dryden/Esposito
72: Johnston/Cheevers vs. Giacomin/Villemure
73: Dryden/Esposito
74: Parent/Gilbert
75: Parent vs. Crozier/Desjardins
76: Dryden/Stephenson
77: Dryden/Cheevers
78: Dryden/Cheevers
79: Dryden/Davidson
80: Smith/Peeters
81: Smith vs. Beaupre/Meloche
82: Smith/Brodeur
83: Smith/Moog
84: Fuhr/Moog vs. Smith/Melanson
85: Fuhr/Lindbergh
86: Roy/Vernon
87: Fuhr/Hextall
88: Fuhr vs. Moog/Lemelin
89: Vernon/Roy
90: Ranford/Moog
91: Barrasso/Casey
92: Barrasso vs. Belfour/Hasek
93: Roy/Hrudey
94: Richter/McLean
95: Brodeur/Vernon
96: Roy/Vanbiesbrouck
97: Vernon/Hextall
98: Osgood/Kolzig
99: Belfour/Hasek
2000: Brodeur/Belfour
01: Roy/Brodeur
02: Hasek/Irbe
03: Brodeur/Giguere
04: Khabibulin/Kiprusoff

I see a lot of goalies that should be in the top-60 lists pouring in soon, no?

Now look...coaching takes a huge grip, it's no longer a player's game and look at what happens...

2006: Ward vs. Roloson - Upstart rookie Ward takes Gerber's job (then loses it, Gerber comes back and gets a shutout, then Ward takes back over and Ward wins the Smythe) vs. Roloson, a career journeyman who was hot then hurt...

2007: Giguere vs. Emery - Giguere a system goalie goes for one last hurrah, though Bryzgalov was hot on his heels (I think he led the playoffs in goalie stats in 2006 and broke Giguere's team record for longest shutout streak...I think he even won a series in 2007)...Emery a fringe goalie riding shotgun to an Ottawa team that features a very good defense that gets torn limb from limb in a two or four year stretch...the amount of goaltender lateral movement in this series was at an all-time low

2008: Osgood vs. Fleury - Career over-cocky attaboy Osgood plays behind one of the strongest teams (the strongest?) since the lockout, ends up being the only thing that gives the young Pens a chance...young Fleury helps will the team to the Finals, but has never been recognized as elite...

2009 Osgood vs. Fleury - Role reversal, Osgood plays better than in 2008 and loses out...Fleury has a few less bad breaks this time around...either way, a never-was vs. a will-he-ever-be...

2010: Niemi vs. Leighton - Another instance where the weakest link of a team is the goaltending (2007 losers, 2008 winners, 2009 losers same) with Antti Niemi who plays rather poorly throughout the Finals but is out-done in his horrificness by a career minor leaguer in Leighton who puts together a despicable performance and allows such a bad Cup clinching goal that no one on the planet would have guessed it went in until Patrick Kane was halfway down the rink...I'm guessing this will go down as the worst goalie matchup in Finals history, or at least I hope so...

2011: Thomas vs. Luongo - Career journeyman Thomas gets the W despite his best efforts vs. Montreal and Tampa Bay (and really even against Vancouver early in the series, that Burrows OT winner was a tremendous blunder) and is awarded a Conn Smythe because there really wasn't anyone else to give it to...Luongo, much-maligned for his past (though somewhat unjustified), clearly isn't the same goalie since being traded...not a terrible guy to make the Finals though I suppose..

2012: Quick vs. Brodeur - Finally, a decent goalie matchup. Well past his prime Brodeur vs. the young Quick...Kings team steamrolls everyone, Quick doesn't allow any game to get close...Brodeur does all he can, but when your number one defenseman is Marek Zidlicky, well, it's a wonder you won a playoff series at all...

---

In the 20 years from 1984-2004, is there anyone that went to the Finals that won't at least be considered for a top-60 list? Jon Casey? Kelly Hrudey? Anyone else?

Percentage-wise, it's looking strong against the new guys...even if you consider system goalies like Giguere/Thomas/Osgood part of the potential top-60...Ward probably won't, Roloson won't, Emery will never get close, Fleury is there with Ward, Niemi will never get close, Leighton is a minor leaguer, Quick maybe well down the line...

Inauspicious...

Sorry for the long post, it's a bit disjointed...

 

[tarheelhockey]

Wow, I don't know about you guys but that post certainly leaves me with something to chew on when I make my list.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

In the 20 years from 1984-2004, is there anyone that went to the Finals that won't at least be considered for a top-60 list? Jon Casey? Kelly Hrudey? Anyone else?

Ranford and Lemelin don't really get any serious consideration from me.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

He's been mentioned earlier in this thread, but what's the case for Alec Connell? His resume doesn't look very attractive to me, and I keep moving him further and further down my list, but at the same time he's a HHOFer. I'm getting to the point where it feels like something's off, because I have so many non-HHOFers ahead of him.

 

[tarheelhockey]

One thing I will say in defense of Tim Thomas, is that he's the anti-Giguere. While it's true that his record was boosted by playing behind a good defensive team, he was never one who stood there like a trash can and let the puck hit him. The difference between his performances and those of a Bryzgalov or Mike Smith is that Thomas ate up all those easy saves, and on top of that he battled with pure skill to make game-changing saves when the defense wasn't there. He elevated the team because he gave as much back to the team as he got from them.

Aside from Brodeur, I haven't seen that kind of team-transcendent quality consistently in any goalie since Hasek, and it's no coincidence that all three of them come from outside the "moneyball" philosophy of goaltending.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I think Thomas is exactly the type of goalie you want to avoid having on this list. He's clearly just a product of Julien...couldn't get an NHL job for more than 10 years after he was drafted, didn't he get a tryout for the 1999 Oilers? And couldn't beat out Salo, Shtalenikov, Essensa, etc. ...finally grabs a spot with Boston (pre-Julien/Chara) and is horrendous, regarded very poorly (well less than even a scrub like Raycroft)...then all of a sudden Julien and Chara get there and exactly in that time frame (which includes losing his job to a rookie, so in all, 3 seasons that ranked above average or better [2 of which far better, of course]) and he's a top 50 goalie of all time? That's a mighty interesting precedent that's being set there...

That Tim Thomas benefitted from having Claude Julien as his coach seems to be an obvious fact, but I'm far from convinced that Thomas is a product of his coach to the extent that he doesn't deserve to make a top 60 list. The problem with subjective evaluation is that you really have to watch out for confirmation bias. For example, arguing that Giguere's 3 shutouts in 2003 against the low-scoring Minnesota Wild were insignificant while claiming that Martin Brodeur's 3 shutouts against the low-scoring Anaheim Mighty Ducks were significant would seem to be one pretty good example of different standards for different goalies.

There are also some important parts of the Thomas story that you left out, including the fact that he destroyed the AHL in 2003-04 (1.84, .941) and then was named MVP of the Finnish league in the lockout year of 2004-05 (1.58, .946, league record 15 SO), all with Julien nowhere to be found. You also did not discuss the hip injury that by all accounts strongly impacted the 2009-10 season where Thomas took a backseat to Rask. Finally, if the stats of Thomas' backups can be used to show that he was a product of his team, how come you get to call him "horrendous" in '05-06 and '06-07 when he put up a .909 on a bad team (.006 above league average) while his backups combined for just .891?

The fact that Rask's numbers have been almost as good as Thomas' could mean that Thomas is not as good as advertised, but they could also mean that Rask is very good. The other Bruins goalies who have played under Julien are at a combined .907, it's not like just anybody off the street is putting up .930s in Boston. If Rask turns out to be an elite goalie, then that works in Thomas' favour. If he's just another guy, then that would be evidence that Thomas might have been seriously riding his team's coattails. Right now it's hard to tell, which is why rating active goalies can sometimes be pretty difficult.

The observation that Thomas was a late-bloomer does little to convince me that he must be overrated. Late-bloomers among goalies are not unusual. Thomas also has an unorthodox style, and lots of goalies have been underrated because they didn't look like everyone else in net. I think a very plausible story that fits all the facts is that Thomas figured out how to put his game together around 2003, has been very good since then, and saw his numbers get otherwordly through the help of the team context that he played in.

The difference between goalies is smaller today than in years past, there is no question about that. It does not follow from that observation that today's best goalies are any worse than they were in time past. It's entirely possible that there is far more depth at the position, and the best evidence of that is the huge number of American and European goalies currently playing in the NHL that suggest a greatly expanded talent pool. The salary cap and the 30 team league also make it less likely that any goalie will be the difference-maker in terms of winning his team the Stanley Cup.

I expect that I will be rating guys like Luongo and Lundqvist much higher on my list than many others will. It's simply harder for them to stand out in today's game, especially if a heavy weighting is put on criteria such as awards, All-Star voting, or times leading the league in heavily team-influenced stats. However, I think if you look at their aggregate performance there are a few guys playing today who I believe have really good numbers in a historic context, and I think they should be recognized for that.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I could not disagree more about Tim Thomas being a product of Julien's coaching and not a top 60 goalie.

Simple reason: Watched him play.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One thing I will say in defense of Tim Thomas, is that he's the anti-Giguere. While it's true that his record was boosted by playing behind a good defensive team, he was never one who stood there like a trash can and let the puck hit him. The difference between his performances and those of a Bryzgalov or Mike Smith is that Thomas ate up all those easy saves, and on top of that he battled with pure skill to make game-changing saves when the defense wasn't there. He elevated the team because he gave as much back to the team as he got from them.

Aside from Brodeur, I haven't seen that kind of team-transcendent quality consistently in any goalie since Hasek, and it's no coincidence that all three of them come from outside the "moneyball" philosophy of goaltending.

Correct.

Giguere hoped it ht his chest protector...Thomas is all over the place. Giguere's weakness is if anyone can see the net, it's probably going in (see: video above), with Thomas, you're almost better off shooting where he is currently because he won't be there when the puck gets to him. Thomas' weakness is that he's prone to some real noodle-scratchers...that Burrows OT winner, another Burrows goal from that series from like 30 feet out on the left wing boards, that Lecavalier 40 footer along the ice, etc. I wonder who made more saves on empty nets, Chara and Seidenberg for Thomas in 2011 or Volchenkov and Phillips for Emery in 2007...gotta be close...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think Thomas is exactly the type of goalie you want to avoid having on this list. He's clearly just a product of Julien...couldn't get an NHL job for more than 10 years after he was drafted, didn't he get a tryout for the 1999 Oilers? And couldn't beat out Salo, Shtalenikov, Essensa, etc. ...finally grabs a spot with Boston (pre-Julien/Chara) and is horrendous, regarded very poorly (well less than even a scrub like Raycroft)...then all of a sudden Julien and Chara get there and exactly in that time frame (which includes losing his job to a rookie, so in all, 3 seasons that ranked above average or better [2 of which far better, of course]) and he's a top 50 goalie of all time? That's a mighty interesting precedent that's being set there...

Surely a top-75 list would feature Roman Cechmanek, would it not?

I've brought it up before, but as a Devils fan, I'd feel you could relate the best...you know how much flack Marty gets for being a "product of the system" ...but could you imagine if in the heart of his prime, he lost his job to a young Finnish rookie (let's make up a name and call him Ari Ahonen...) and Ahonen led the league in GAA and save pct. and the whole nine in that one season...how much damage would it do to Brodeur's legacy? Can't you see the giant blue and red neon signs pointing directly at that season while a man clad in a Mark Messier jersey parades around with a sign that says "I told you so" on it? That's not hard to imagine...

You're more than welcome to downgrade Espo, Lundqvist, Luongo, etc. for having larger-than-needed equipment...I'd encourage it, as long as it's even across the board relative to the rest of the league. None appear to be quite the offender that Giguere was, but yes, that certainly can be a minor part of the discussion. What Giguere did in 2003 was deemed heroic, I'd call it unsportsmanlike at best...his fraudulence was confirmed in a game that you should know all too well...



Fast forward to 1:18, turn on sound. That's a disgrace, I know there's a couple of old goalies on here that would get an ulcer from watching that...he didn't even flinch...

Giguere may have been one of five (or so) contenders for the Conn Smythe in 2007...maybe...and in 2003, I didn't think he was God's gift to goaltending like popular opinion dictated at the time...3 of his 5 shutouts came against one of the lower scoring (lowest?) playoff teams in Minnesota in an all-night trap-a-rama...then he went on to surrender some 20 goals (or thereabouts) when the chips were down in the Finals (unlike Brodeur, who got 3 shutouts in the Finals, when it mattered most)...like Thomas, cute story, overhyped by the increasingly faulty media...like Thomas couldn't hold his head above water anywhere else other than the perfect conditions (defensive coaching + HHOF defenseman/men)...like Thomas, Giguere was regarded higher by the media than the GMs...

Giguere:
2003 - Media: Hart trophy vote, 8th in AS voting (6 voters out of 60 had him on ballot - 10%); GMs: 9th in Vezina (2 voters out of 30 on ballot - 6.67%)

2008 - Media: 1st place vote for Lady Byng, 3rd in AS voting; GMs: 9th in Vezina

Thomas:
2009 - With basically no competition with the goalie awards...Media: 103 of 131 first place votes (78.6%); GMs: 22 of 30 first place votes (73.3%).

2011 - Media: 92 of 125 first place votes (73.6%), 97.6% of ballots; GMs: 17 of 30 first place votes (56.7%), 86.7% of ballots.

I mean, you'd think after the season and the fanfare that Thomas got in 2011 (record breaking*) that he would have been a shoo-in universally...but just a touch over half of the league's GMs even considered him the league's best goalie that year...and 4 out of 30 didn't even consider him top-3 in the league that year! That's odd...no?

It's not an attack on these names, as much as it's a yellow flag of caution for the last 15 years of goalies...very easy to get sucked in...

It seems that the difference in talent levels between goalies today isn't nearly (no where close) as big as it was in 1987, 1977, etc. The difference between goaltenders now isn't so much the talent but the consistency in which they can bring their top talent to the forefront...look at a goalie like Marc-Andre Fleury...technical skill, he has to rank as one of the best goalies in the league...it's the consistency in which he can bring that game-stealing nature to the rink every night that makes his stats somewhat questionable.

But how big of a difference is there talent wise between Jonas Hiller and Jimmy Howard? It's really that great of a gap? I wouldn't guess so, I would just guess that Hiller doesn't play for as strong of a defensive team anymore and Jimmy Howard played behind Nicklas Lidstrom...

Brian Elliott went from the unlikely position of being one of the worst goalies in the league with Ottawa and maybe on his way out of the league in 2011, but then broke the record* for save pct. and became statistically the best goalie in the league in 2012 because he practiced a little harder in the 3-month offseason and had a protein shake or two? Seems unlikely...I'd say that playing behind Ken Hitchcock helped him...

Goalies, individually, aren't as important to a team's success as they were 20 years ago...

Look at the goaltending matchups in the Finals over the years, the value of goaltending is at its lowest ever...

1967: Sawchuk/Bower vs. Vachon/Worsley
68: Worsley/Hall
69: Vachon vs. Hall/Plante
70: Cheevers vs. Hall/Plante/Wakely
71: Dryden/Esposito
72: Johnston/Cheevers vs. Giacomin/Villemure
73: Dryden/Esposito
74: Parent/Gilbert
75: Parent vs. Crozier/Desjardins
76: Dryden/Stephenson
77: Dryden/Cheevers
78: Dryden/Cheevers
79: Dryden/Davidson
80: Smith/Peeters
81: Smith vs. Beaupre/Meloche
82: Smith/Brodeur
83: Smith/Moog
84: Fuhr/Moog vs. Smith/Melanson
85: Fuhr/Lindbergh
86: Roy/Vernon
87: Fuhr/Hextall
88: Fuhr vs. Moog/Lemelin
89: Vernon/Roy
90: Ranford/Moog
91: Barrasso/Casey
92: Barrasso vs. Belfour/Hasek
93: Roy/Hrudey
94: Richter/McLean
95: Brodeur/Vernon
96: Roy/Vanbiesbrouck
97: Vernon/Hextall
98: Osgood/Kolzig
99: Belfour/Hasek
2000: Brodeur/Belfour
01: Roy/Brodeur
02: Hasek/Irbe
03: Brodeur/Giguere
04: Khabibulin/Kiprusoff

I see a lot of goalies that should be in the top-60 lists pouring in soon, no?

Now look...coaching takes a huge grip, it's no longer a player's game and look at what happens...

2006: Ward vs. Roloson - Upstart rookie Ward takes Gerber's job (then loses it, Gerber comes back and gets a shutout, then Ward takes back over and Ward wins the Smythe) vs. Roloson, a career journeyman who was hot then hurt...

2007: Giguere vs. Emery - Giguere a system goalie goes for one last hurrah, though Bryzgalov was hot on his heels (I think he led the playoffs in goalie stats in 2006 and broke Giguere's team record for longest shutout streak...I think he even won a series in 2007)...Emery a fringe goalie riding shotgun to an Ottawa team that features a very good defense that gets torn limb from limb in a two or four year stretch...the amount of goaltender lateral movement in this series was at an all-time low

2008: Osgood vs. Fleury - Career over-cocky attaboy Osgood plays behind one of the strongest teams (the strongest?) since the lockout, ends up being the only thing that gives the young Pens a chance...young Fleury helps will the team to the Finals, but has never been recognized as elite...

2009 Osgood vs. Fleury - Role reversal, Osgood plays better than in 2008 and loses out...Fleury has a few less bad breaks this time around...either way, a never-was vs. a will-he-ever-be...

2010: Niemi vs. Leighton - Another instance where the weakest link of a team is the goaltending (2007 losers, 2008 winners, 2009 losers same) with Antti Niemi who plays rather poorly throughout the Finals but is out-done in his horrificness by a career minor leaguer in Leighton who puts together a despicable performance and allows such a bad Cup clinching goal that no one on the planet would have guessed it went in until Patrick Kane was halfway down the rink...I'm guessing this will go down as the worst goalie matchup in Finals history, or at least I hope so...

2011: Thomas vs. Luongo - Career journeyman Thomas gets the W despite his best efforts vs. Montreal and Tampa Bay (and really even against Vancouver early in the series, that Burrows OT winner was a tremendous blunder) and is awarded a Conn Smythe because there really wasn't anyone else to give it to...Luongo, much-maligned for his past (though somewhat unjustified), clearly isn't the same goalie since being traded...not a terrible guy to make the Finals though I suppose..

2012: Quick vs. Brodeur - Finally, a decent goalie matchup. Well past his prime Brodeur vs. the young Quick...Kings team steamrolls everyone, Quick doesn't allow any game to get close...Brodeur does all he can, but when your number one defenseman is Marek Zidlicky, well, it's a wonder you won a playoff series at all...

---

In the 20 years from 1984-2004, is there anyone that went to the Finals that won't at least be considered for a top-60 list? Jon Casey? Kelly Hrudey? Anyone else?

Percentage-wise, it's looking strong against the new guys...even if you consider system goalies like Giguere/Thomas/Osgood part of the potential top-60...Ward probably won't, Roloson won't, Emery will never get close, Fleury is there with Ward, Niemi will never get close, Leighton is a minor leaguer, Quick maybe well down the line...

Inauspicious...

Sorry for the long post, it's a bit disjointed...

How about fast forwarding to 1:49 of that clip?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I could not disagree more about Tim Thomas being a product of Julien's coaching and not a top 60 goalie.

Simple reason: Watched him play.

That's weird, that's my reason for keeping him off...

Here's a little of work I did on Julien and his effect on save pct. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=53643865&postcount=199

 

[seventieslord]

Wow, I don't know about you guys but that post certainly leaves me with something to chew on when I make my list.

Yes, me too.

although TCG's post does, too

TCG, this project needs you.

 

[Sentinel]

Fast forward to 1:18, turn on sound. That's a disgrace, I know there's a couple of old goalies on here that would get an ulcer from watching that...he didn't even flinch...

Big friggin' deal! Look at the 1.49 of the same video. WHAT A DISGRACE FOR BRODEUR! OH NO!!

EDIT: Sorry, Dennis Bonvie beat me to it.

Giguere has singlehandedly eliminated the best team ever assembled that year (Red Wings sans Hasek). Give him some credit.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That Tim Thomas benefitted from having Claude Julien as his coach seems to be an obvious fact, but I'm far from convinced that Thomas is a product of his coach to the extent that he doesn't deserve to make a top 60 list. The problem with subjective evaluation is that you really have to watch out for confirmation bias. For example, arguing that Giguere's 3 shutouts in 2003 against the low-scoring Minnesota Wild were insignificant while claiming that Martin Brodeur's 3 shutouts against the low-scoring Anaheim Mighty Ducks were significant would seem to be one pretty good example of different standards for different goalies.

There are also some important parts of the Thomas story that you left out, including the fact that he destroyed the AHL in 2003-04 (1.84, .941) and then was named MVP of the Finnish league in the lockout year of 2004-05 (1.58, .946, league record 15 SO), all with Julien nowhere to be found. You also did not discuss the hip injury that by all accounts strongly impacted the 2009-10 season where Thomas took a backseat to Rask. Finally, if the stats of Thomas' backups can be used to show that he was a product of his team, how come you get to call him "horrendous" in '05-06 and '06-07 when he put up a .909 on a bad team (.006 above league average) while his backups combined for just .891?

The fact that Rask's numbers have been almost as good as Thomas' could mean that Thomas is not as good as advertised, but they could also mean that Rask is very good. The other Bruins goalies who have played under Julien are at a combined .907, it's not like just anybody off the street is putting up .930s in Boston. If Rask turns out to be an elite goalie, then that works in Thomas' favour. If he's just another guy, then that would be evidence that Thomas might have been seriously riding his team's coattails. Right now it's hard to tell, which is why rating active goalies can sometimes be pretty difficult.

The observation that Thomas was a late-bloomer does little to convince me that he must be overrated. Late-bloomers among goalies are not unusual. Thomas also has an unorthodox style, and lots of goalies have been underrated because they didn't look like everyone else in net. I think a very plausible story that fits all the facts is that Thomas figured out how to put his game together around 2003, has been very good since then, and saw his numbers get otherwordly through the help of the team context that he played in.

The difference between goalies is smaller today than in years past, there is no question about that. It does not follow from that observation that today's best goalies are any worse than they were in time past. It's entirely possible that there is far more depth at the position, and the best evidence of that is the huge number of American and European goalies currently playing in the NHL that suggest a greatly expanded talent pool. The salary cap and the 30 team league also make it less likely that any goalie will be the difference-maker in terms of winning his team the Stanley Cup.

I expect that I will be rating guys like Luongo and Lundqvist much higher on my list than many others will. It's simply harder for them to stand out in today's game, especially if a heavy weighting is put on criteria such as awards, All-Star voting, or times leading the league in heavily team-influenced stats. However, I think if you look at their aggregate performance there are a few guys playing today who I believe have really good numbers in a historic context, and I think they should be recognized for that.

Good post. Just gonna respectfully but briefly counter in order, if I may...

- The idea is that Giguere couldn't really shutout anyone else...3 of 5 shutouts against the Wild - might as well have won the series 1-0 in 4 OT and saved the travel time...Brodeur had 3 of 7 shutouts in the Finals against the Ducks sure, but that leaves a number of others for the rest of the teams. 7 of Brodeur's 16 wins saw him not surrender a goal...that's really something...and when it got to crunch time, he was there in spades...Giguere was not...the Devils were only an average offensive team in 2003 anyway and Giguere was thoroughly perforated...

- He was exceptional with Scott Gordon in 2004...the next year, when Toivonen had a year under his belt, he also finished top-5 in save pct. - the year before, Thomas shared the crease with Andrew Raycroft and couldn't keep up with him statistically...so once again, not a lot of questions get answered...just more of "Thomas can excel in a defensive system very well but for an indeterminate amount of time" ...I can't speak for his year in Finland, but I'd expect a supposed top-50 goalie of all-time in his supposed peak to dominate a league that is not considered top-3 in the world...especially one that is regarded for its straightforward style of play and one that doesn't have the skill level of its counterparts (KHL, SEL, which both involve more creative offensive play...the SM-Liiga A is more physical, less creativity).

- Alex Auld had far and away his best career numbers under Julien...despite waltzing in fresh out of the sewer...Brodeur also had his best save pct. years under Julien...please, see my Claude Julien profile above. I'm a big fan of Rask actually, for the record...

- He could be a late-bloomer and all of a sudden good almost 15 years after being drafted...orrrrrr...he just fell into the right situation at the right time...considering his 2007 and 2010 (injury or not, it's his fault that we don't have a big sample size, not mine/ours) I think it's likely the latter. Stone cold lock? Certainly not. Seems likely given the disinterest in him around the league for a decade...just seems like an inconsistent goalie that happened to find a really good team at a really good time...I mean, what happens even if the Bruins don't trade Andrew Raycroft? It's very conceivable that Thomas is right back out the door, even though it sounds silly in retrospect...if the Leafs said "Pogge, not Rask, he's untouchable" in the Raycroft trade, who knows if anyone even know who Thomas is...the late-bloomer isn't an indictment, but there's a red flag there that says, "let's investigate why"

 

[Michael Farkas]

Big friggin' deal! Look at the 1.49 of the same video. WHAT A DISGRACE FOR BRODEUR! OH NO!!

EDIT: Sorry, Dennis Bonvie beat me to it.

Giguere has singlehandedly eliminated the best team ever assembled that year (Red Wings sans Hasek). Give him some credit.

Obviously the Brodeur gaffe and Elias shot are not comparable. As Brodeur's style and ability aren't questioned on that play...Giguere's very much comes into question...his lateral movement (maybe he was weighed down somehow...) came into serious question in that series (I think Friesen has one roll off of him that Giguere just couldn't get to, despite ample time to do so, in game 5, IIRC) so did his glove and blocker...weak lateral movement, no glove, no blocker...not sounding like such a great goalie after all...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's weird, that's my reason for keeping him off...

Here's a little of work I did on Julien and his effect on save pct. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=53643865&postcount=199

If you have seen Tim Thomas play as much as I have and still think he's a product of Julien's system, then we need not dance around. We simply disagree.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Obviously the Brodeur gaffe and Elias shot are not comparable. As Brodeur's style and ability aren't questioned on that play...Giguere's very much comes into question...his lateral movement (maybe he was weighed down somehow...) came into serious question in that series (I think Friesen has one roll off of him that Giguere just couldn't get to, despite ample time to do so, in game 5, IIRC) so did his glove and blocker...weak lateral movement, no glove, no blocker...not sounding like such a great goalie after all...

I simply pointed out Brodeur's gaffe to make the point that showing a video of one bad goal real doesn't say much.

Besides, I don't think anyone is thinking of rating Giguere up with Brodeur.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Why is Thomas a trick? He's pretty safely in my top 60 now. Should he not be?

You make a good point about Giguere's pads, though I'm not sure how to downgrade him for that though. Do we also downgrade Luongo and Lundqvist for their giant pads? Do we penalize Tony Esposito for using a "cheater" between his legs that was later banned?

I really don't care where goalies were drafted. I do care that he had 2 Smythe-worthy playoffs, and was a good starter for a long time, picking up the odd Vezina votes here and there. When I mentioned Miller, Giguere, Osgood, and Turco, I was talking about guys I was struggling to add to my top 60, and wanted to see if any stuck out enough to include

I must be missing a bunch goalies somewhere if none of those guys make your top 60.