HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Peter “Pekka” Lindmark

• Named best goalie at the WC 1981 and 1986.
• Two WC gold medals (1987, 1991)
• Represented Sweden 174 times.
• Named SEL MVP 1981, Guldhjälmen (Swedish Ted Lindsey Award) 1987

Leif “Honken” Holmqvist

• Best goalie at the 1969 WC
• Represented Sweden a record 202 times.
• One of only three players to get the Guldpucken (Swedish Hart) twice.
• Seven consecutive Swedish All-star Teams

I always have a hard time deciding between these two, but now that I'm looking a their records, I'm strongly leaning towards Lindmark, because he did what he did against the powerful 1980s Soviet Team. I think I prefer the Czech Kralik to Lindmark though, by a little bit

Question though - Where did you find the Swedish All Star Teams?

 

[steve141]

I always have a hard time deciding between these two, but now that I'm looking a their records, I'm strongly leaning towards Lindmark, because he did what he did against the powerful 1980s Soviet Team. I think I prefer the Czech Kralik to Lindmark though, by a little bit

I have Lindmark slightly ahead of Holmqvist aswell, but there really isn't much to separate them. I think you are correct that Lindmark faced harder competition both domestically and internationally.

On the face of it Kralik and Lindmark look to have comparable award cases (best goalie two times at the WC, five times in the domestic league). Do you have more information that makes it easier to rank one over the other?

Is there a good source for goaltender performance at the Olympics?

Question though - Where did you find the Swedish All Star Teams?

I only have Swedish language sources:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitserien_i_ishockeys_All_star-lag
http://www.swehockey.se/ImageVault/Images/id_551/ImageVaultHandler.aspx

The All Star Team is voted on by the Swedish equivalent of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association.

One kink to note is that Swedish players playing abroad were eligible for the awards between 1983 and 2002.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

On the face of it Kralik and Lindmark look to have comparable award cases (best goalie two times at the WC, five times in the domestic league). Do you have more information that makes it easier to rank one over the other?

IIRC, Kralik did slightly better than Lindmark in voting for the Izvestia Golden Stick. Unfortunately, the full voting results for that award no longer appear anywhere in the Internet that I can find.

Is there a good source for goaltender performance at the Olympics?

Elite prospects is a great resource for skaters at the Olympics and WCs, but only list GP for goalies
http://eliteprospects.com/league_to...1971&to=2011&season=%&leagueid=OG#goaltending

SIHR does have GAA for at least some players in the Olympics, but it doesn't look to have full rankings

 

[Sanf]

Hello everybody! First post in here. My english is far from good so I try to keep it simple, but I can promise that there will be mistakes.

I hope that this isn´t too much off topic but here are some of the All-star voting results from WC if that interest or helps anyone. Sadly only few and some of them has missing infos.
1963
1. Kjell Svensson SWE 2. Seth Martin CAN
(Second All-star goalie also published but no votes)
1965
Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 36 votes,Tom Haugh USA 6, Peter Kolbe DDR 5, Ken Broderick CAN 4, Juhani Lahtinen FIN 1, Kjell Svensson SWE 1
(55 voters. So 4 votes missing or not casted)
1967
Carl Wetzel 42,5% of votes. Only other mentioned is Urpo Ylönen 20,5% of votes
1968
Ken Broderick CAN 28, Urpo Ylönen FIN 7, Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 6, Leif Holmqvist SWE 3
1969
Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 59, (Nearest) Leif Holmqvist SWE 56, Mike Curran USA 28
(150 voters. So 7 votes probably to other goalies because Holmqvist and Curran mentioned nearest)
1970
Viktor Konovalenko USSR 43, Leif Holmqvist SWE 23, Urpo Ylönen FIN 21
(87 voters)
1971
Jiri Holecek CSSR 32, Jorma Valtonen FIN 19, Carl Wetzel USA 4, Viktor Konovalenko USSR 2, Christer Abrahamsson SWE 2
1972
Jiri Holecek CSSR 86, Alfio Molina SUI 12, Jorma Valtonen FIN 11, Vladislav Tretjak USSR 10, Leif Holmqvist
SWE 2
(121 voters)
1974
Curt Larsson SWE 43, Vladislav Tretjak USSR 38, Jiri Holecek CSSR (vote count missing), Christer Abrahamsson SWE 14, Stig Wetzell FIN 2, Antti Leppänen FIN 1, Jorma Valtonen FIN 1
1976
Jiri Holecek CSSR 154 votes
(others not mentioned.Neither the amount of voters but if looking other players votes. Harlamov 124,Novy 71,Martinec 112,Pospisil 111,Waltin 56 it seems that goalie was the clearest choice)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thanks for that. Wish we had more years. I find it interesting that the Soviet goalies weren't even close in 1971 and 1972.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't remember Charlie Hodge when he played for Montreal.

Anyone have insight into his record there? That is, was he a product of playing for the Canadiens or his he a legit choice for the top 60?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Charlie Hodge

I don't remember Charlie Hodge when he played for Montreal.

Anyone have insight into his record there? That is, was he a product of playing for the Canadiens or his he a legit choice for the top 60?

Technically sound, quick, good athlete and skater. Small, endurance issues and problems with a crowded crease:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hodgech01.html

Top 60, not quite, top 75.

 

[Killion]

I don't remember Charlie Hodge when he played for Montreal.

... oh golly, I sure do. He was an extremely entertaining performer. I was/am a Leafs fan but I do remember him vividly, and being a bit upset that he'd been replaced, usurped & cast aside to make room for Vachon. I actually much preferred watching old Charlie to Gump Worsley, and as a tandem for a couple of years there they were the best in the league.

 

[Sanf]

Thanks for that. Wish we had more years. I find it interesting that the Soviet goalies weren't even close in 1971 and 1972.

I probably should tell the source of those. It´s Finnish yearly hockey book. Finnish hockeys "Grand Old Man" Aarne Honkavaara started to publish it in 1961.

In 71 Konovalenko was still number one and atleast if looking stats he didn´t have a good year. 72 is a bit strange but I think that the cutting the Soviet gold streak did have much effect on that.

Those star votes seems to favour bit of goalies who was doing best they can in hopeles situation. Like in Carl Wetzel at 67. He faced 289 shots and let in 20. Konovalenkos numbers were 112/7. Same goes to guys like Molina at 72. Swiss goalies had to face 57,1 shots per game when the best countries numbers were somewhere between 20-30.

 

[seventieslord]

Before the website that had the voting records went down, I looked at the voting and remember that Kralik and Lindmark were both ranked consistently highly. Seventieslord could back me up on that one.

IIRC, Kralik had a 1st, 5th and a weak 9th.

I can't believe that site is down... I can't believe someone didn't copy the voting results down!

what about the wayback machine?

I always have a hard time deciding between these two, but now that I'm looking a their records, I'm strongly leaning towards Lindmark, because he did what he did against the powerful 1980s Soviet Team. I think I prefer the Czech Kralik to Lindmark though, by a little bit

I agree.

Hello everybody! First post in here. My english is far from good so I try to keep it simple, but I can promise that there will be mistakes.

I hope that this isn´t too much off topic but here are some of the All-star voting results from WC if that interest or helps anyone. Sadly only few and some of them has missing infos.
1965
Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 36 votes,Tom Haugh USA 6, Peter Kolbe DDR 5, Ken Broderick CAN 4, Juhani Lahtinen FIN 1, Kjell Svensson SWE 1
1967
Carl Wetzel 42,5% of votes. Only other mentioned is Urpo Ylönen 20,5% of votes
1968
Ken Broderick CAN 28, Urpo Ylönen FIN 7, Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 6, Leif Holmqvist SWE 3
1969
Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 59, (Nearest) Leif Holmqvist SWE 56, Mike Curran USA 28
1970
Viktor Konovalenko USSR 43, Leif Holmqvist SWE 23, Urpo Ylönen FIN 21
1971
Jiri Holecek CSSR 32, Jorma Valtonen FIN 19, Carl Wetzel USA 4, Viktor Konovalenko USSR 2, Christer Abrahamsson SWE 2
1972
Jiri Holecek CSSR 86, Alfio Molina SUI 12, Jorma Valtonen FIN 11, Vladislav Tretjak USSR 10, Leif Holmqvist SWE 2
1974
Curt Larsson SWE 43, Vladislav Tretjak USSR 38, Jiri Holecek CSSR (vote count missing), Christer Abrahamsson SWE 14, Stig Wetzell FIN 2, Antti Leppänen FIN 1, Jorma Valtonen FIN 1

Great resource, thanks! Wish we had more years of this stuff.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I couldn't find any results in the wayback machine. It does t seem to have that particular site archived

Its possible I'm doing it wrong though, I guess

 

[Sanf]

Great resource, thanks! Wish we had more years of this stuff.

There could be more but Finnish hockey museum site has only pdf from 1961 to 1976. So other ones would be needed to gather from libraries. So if some other Finnish hockeystat lover has lots of spare time... . Allthough I don´t know how long they keeped publishing the votes.

 

[Theokritos]

Hello everybody! First post in here. My english is far from good so I try to keep it simple, but I can promise that there will be mistakes.

I hope that this isn´t too much off topic but here are some of the All-star voting results from WC if that interest or helps anyone. Sadly only few and some of them has missing infos.
1965
Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 36 votes,Tom Haugh USA 6, Peter Kolbe DDR 5, Ken Broderick CAN 4, Juhani Lahtinen FIN 1, Kjell Svensson SWE 1
1967
Carl Wetzel 42,5% of votes. Only other mentioned is Urpo Ylönen 20,5% of votes
1968
Ken Broderick CAN 28, Urpo Ylönen FIN 7, Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 6, Leif Holmqvist SWE 3
1969
Vlado Dzurilla CSSR 59, (Nearest) Leif Holmqvist SWE 56, Mike Curran USA 28
1970
Viktor Konovalenko USSR 43, Leif Holmqvist SWE 23, Urpo Ylönen FIN 21
1971
Jiri Holecek CSSR 32, Jorma Valtonen FIN 19, Carl Wetzel USA 4, Viktor Konovalenko USSR 2, Christer Abrahamsson SWE 2
1972
Jiri Holecek CSSR 86, Alfio Molina SUI 12, Jorma Valtonen FIN 11, Vladislav Tretjak USSR 10, Leif Holmqvist SWE 2
1974
Curt Larsson SWE 43, Vladislav Tretjak USSR 38, Jiri Holecek CSSR (vote count missing), Christer Abrahamsson SWE 14, Stig Wetzell FIN 2, Antti Leppänen FIN 1, Jorma Valtonen FIN 1

Fantastic find!

I really wish we had access to the full voting records for the Izvestia Golden Stick, which was awarded to the best player in Europe during the late 70s until the fall of the Iron Curtain.

I can't believe that site is down... I can't believe someone didn't copy the voting results down!

At the moment I'm attempting to get in touch with the folks who published the Paper of the Communist Party here in my country during the 1970s and 1980s. I guess if any information about the Izvestia Golden Stick is available in the West, it should be in this environment. But it could take time and I'm not sure whether it's going to work out. Still waiting for a reply from a docent at the local university.

Before the website that had the voting records went down, I looked at the voting and remember that Kralik and Lindmark were both ranked consistently highly. Seventieslord could back me up on that one.

What we still have is the following data:

Boris Mikhailov – 1st(1979), 2nd(1980)
Sergei Makarov – 1st(1980), 4th(1981), 6th(1982), 4th(1983), 4th(1984), 2nd(1985), 1st(1986), 4th(1987), 3rd(1988), 3rd(1989)
Valeri Vasiliev – 3rd(1980), 8th(1981), 8th(1982)
Vladislav Tretiak – 6th(1980), 1st(1981), 1st(1982), 1st(1983), 2nd(1984)
Vladimir Krutov – 7th(1980), 2nd(1983), 5th(1984), 5th(1985), 2nd(1986), 1st(1987), 2nd((1988)
Marian Stastny – 8th(1980)
Pelle Lindbergh – 9th(1980)
Alexander Maltsev – 10th(1980), 2nd(1981)
Vladimir Martinec – 7th(1981)
Jiri Lala – 3rd(1981), 4th(1982), 3rd(1983), 4th(1985)
Peter Lindmark – 5th(1981), 3rd(1986), 5th(1988)
Milan Novy – 2nd(1982)
Viktor Shalimov – 3rd(1982)
********** [Note by Theokritos: Jiří Králík] – 9th(1982), 5th(1983), 1st(1985)
Igor Larionov – 6th(1983), 5th(1986), 4th(1988), 4th(1988)
Alexei Kasatonov – 9th(1983), 6th(1985), 9th(1986), 5th(1988)
Vyacheslav Fetisov – 10th(1983), 1st(1984), 3rd(1985), 4th(1986), 5th(1987), 1st(1988), 1st(1989)
Dominik Hasek – 3rd(1984), 3rd(1987), 2nd(1989)

Note that Lindmark and Alexei Kasatonov both are listed as 5th in 1988. Either both were tied or it's a mistake in the data and one of them was actually 5th in another year.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm really having a hard time ranking the non-NHL goalies who starred internationally. Holecek and Tretiak are no-brainers, but after that, I am having a lot of trouble separating Dzurilla, Lindmark, Kralik, and Seth Martin from each other. I really would like to have more than just two international stars in the top 40 of my list, but it's tough when 3-6 all blend together

As for modern goalies, any thoughts on Osgood vs Giguere vs Turco vs Ryan Miller? I highly doubt any make my top 40, but I'm trying to figure out which ones (if any) to include while rounding out my top 60.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm really having a hard time ranking the non-NHL goalies who starred internationally. Holecek and Tretiak are no-brainers, but after that, I am having a lot of trouble separating Dzurilla, Lindmark, Kralik, and Seth Martin from each other. I really would like to have more than just two international stars in the top 40 of my list, but it's tough when 3-6 all blend together

As for modern goalies, any thoughts on Osgood vs Giguere vs Turco vs Ryan Miller? I highly doubt any make my top 40, but I'm trying to figure out which ones (if any) to include while rounding out my top 60.

Does 7 seasons, just one anything near a vezina, make Miller top-60? (whether he won it that one time or not?)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm really having a hard time ranking the non-NHL goalies who starred internationally. Holecek and Tretiak are no-brainers, but after that, I am having a lot of trouble separating Dzurilla, Lindmark, Kralik, and Seth Martin from each other. I really would like to have more than just two international stars in the top 40 of my list, but it's tough when 3-6 all blend together

As for modern goalies, any thoughts on Osgood vs Giguere vs Turco vs Ryan Miller? I highly doubt any make my top 40, but I'm trying to figure out which ones (if any) to include while rounding out my top 60.

The numbers may not bare it out, but I like Miller best from his group.

Always felt Turco was a product of his team, but he was a great puck handler.

Saw Osgood put on a show one night in New Haven when he played for Adirondack, always liked him after that.

I guess that leaves Mr. Giant pads. Being in the playoffs only 5 times yet winning the Conn Smythe in one season and the Cup in another is pretty impressive.

Any reason to consider Irbe? (long international record, stretches of dominate play?)
Or Khabibulin?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Same Question

Does 7 seasons, just one anything near a vezina, make Miller top-60? (whether he won it that one time or not?)

Same question can be asked about a number of top 60 pretenders. Question of timing - who is the flavour of the month.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I didn't want to say it, but I liked Miller the best out of those also...though I doubt the numbers back it up...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Does 7 seasons, just one anything near a vezina, make Miller top-60? (whether he won it that one time or not?)

I don't consider Buffalo a real top end team in those 7 years but Miller's record is 246-136-48 during that time.

 

[Sanf]

I'm really having a hard time ranking the non-NHL goalies who starred internationally. Holecek and Tretiak are no-brainers, but after that, I am having a lot of trouble separating Dzurilla, Lindmark, Kralik, and Seth Martin from each other. I really would like to have more than just two international stars in the top 40 of my list, but it's tough when 3-6 all blend together

What about Bohumil Modry? He was considered the top European netminder of the immediate pre- and post-World War II era. World champion from 1947 and 1949.

Here is link to Czech player of the century votings from 1998. 50 Hockey person from Czech Rebublic made their 10 best lists. Modry is on 22 list and as for comparasion Kralik is only in two.
http://sport.idnes.cz/hlasovani-poroty-0zz-/sporty.aspx?c=981211_114428_sport_noc


PS. I editet some small info about the votings to the original WC All-star post.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What about Bohumil Modry? He was considered the top European netminder of the immediate pre- and post-World War II era. World champion from 1947 and 1949.

Here is link to Czech player of the century votings from 1998. 50 Hockey person from Czech Rebublic made their 10 best lists. Modry is on 22 list and as for comparasion Kralik is only in two.
http://sport.idnes.cz/hlasovani-poroty-0zz-/sporty.aspx?c=981211_114428_sport_noc


PS. I editet some small info about the votings to the original WC All-star post.

I should add Modry to the Europeans list above.

But he won't be in my top 60 - IMO, he's the Tom Paton of Europe - the best goalie when the sport was still in his infancy. Modry sure has a story though - 2 Gold Medals in 2 years, then basically given a death sentence - years as a slave in the Uranium mines - by his own government for allegedly being part of a conspiracy to defect

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Irbe isnt all that close to my top 60 - never close to the Vezina, 2 really good playoffs, but overall a losing record. Khabibulin is closer - never close to a Vezina, but had the one great Cup run and one great tournament. But I have him decisively behind Giguere and there's a good chance I run out of room for Giguere on my list.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You shouldn't be able to find much room for Giguere either...if not for the fraudulent, or otherwise unsportsmanlike, equipment he donned but for the fact that he was a product of the Ducks team. After being a first round pick, he did nothing in the league until being picked up by his third organization some six or seven years after he was drafted...this seems like a pretty stat heavy exercise (given some of the comments I've seen so far, which will make this very tough to judge goalies after 1995 or so), so surely someone has taken note that Giguere has been statistically even or worse than all of his modern backups (that is, not including a relic like Guy Herbert or fringe NHLer/relic Steve Shields) while being a member of the Ducks - except 2007 I believe, when Bryzgalov didn't fair as well in the regular season but more or less matched him in the playoffs...a job which Bryzgalov was unfairly stripped of, likely for financial reasons...

Couldn't do anything with Hartford, Calgary, Toronto and had to settle for a backup role with Colorado...but Anaheim he had success, where Gerber did his best work, Bryzgalov put himself on the map, Hiller made himself into a goalie (in direction competition with Giguere, he stole his job) out of nowhere...

That doesn't seem odd to anyone?

I'm not sure if I'm eligible/allowed/knowledgeable enough to take part in this discussion on a large scale...but I hope that we (or you guys) tread very, very carefully with goalies in the last 15 or so years...there's a lot of tricks out there (Giguere, Osgood, Thomas, etc.)...a number of landmines that could really undermine what would be another quality exercise from this board...

 

[seventieslord]

but I hope that we (or you guys) tread very, very carefully with goalies in the last 15 or so years...there's a lot of tricks out there (Giguere, Osgood, Thomas, etc.)...a number of landmines that could really undermine what would be another quality exercise from this board...

I agree. Not necessarily on the names but the last 15 years or so is going to be tough to sort out.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You shouldn't be able to find much room for Giguere either...if not for the fraudulent, or otherwise unsportsmanlike, equipment he donned but for the fact that he was a product of the Ducks team. After being a first round pick, he did nothing in the league until being picked up by his third organization some six or seven years after he was drafted...this seems like a pretty stat heavy exercise (given some of the comments I've seen so far, which will make this very tough to judge goalies after 1995 or so), so surely someone has taken note that Giguere has been statistically even or worse than all of his modern backups (that is, not including a relic like Guy Herbert or fringe NHLer/relic Steve Shields) while being a member of the Ducks - except 2007 I believe, when Bryzgalov didn't fair as well in the regular season but more or less matched him in the playoffs...a job which Bryzgalov was unfairly stripped of, likely for financial reasons...

Couldn't do anything with Hartford, Calgary, Toronto and had to settle for a backup role with Colorado...but Anaheim he had success, where Gerber did his best work, Bryzgalov put himself on the map, Hiller made himself into a goalie (in direction competition with Giguere, he stole his job) out of nowhere...

That doesn't seem odd to anyone?

I'm not sure if I'm eligible/allowed/knowledgeable enough to take part in this discussion on a large scale...but I hope that we (or you guys) tread very, very carefully with goalies in the last 15 or so years...there's a lot of tricks out there (Giguere, Osgood, Thomas, etc.)...a number of landmines that could really undermine what would be another quality exercise from this board...

Why is Thomas a trick? He's pretty safely in my top 60 now. Should he not be?

You make a good point about Giguere's pads, though I'm not sure how to downgrade him for that though. Do we also downgrade Luongo and Lundqvist for their giant pads? Do we penalize Tony Esposito for using a "cheater" between his legs that was later banned?

I really don't care where goalies were drafted. I do care that he had 2 Smythe-worthy playoffs, and was a good starter for a long time, picking up the odd Vezina votes here and there. When I mentioned Miller, Giguere, Osgood, and Turco, I was talking about guys I was struggling to add to my top 60, and wanted to see if any stuck out enough to include