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HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

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VanIslander said:
Am I the only one who wishes it was top-70? :( It's really hard deciding between the 50-70 range guys! (which, of course, may be the point of only having a top-40 final list when all is said and done!)
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Yeah. I forced myself to submit my list as soon as voting started since I needed to have it in effort I can look at other lists to collect them. And after about spot 35 or so, it got really tough.
 
List submitted.

(R.I.P. Wilf Cude, Roger Crozier, Miikka Kiprusoff, Mike Vernon, Tomas Vokoun, Reggie Lemelin, Jiri Kralik.)
 
One week down and only 7 lists submitted so far (including mine). Hope this isnt going to be a sign of the level of participation, and that everyone is just waiting until next week.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
One week down and only 7 lists submitted so far (including mine). Hope this isnt going to be a sign of the level of participation, and that everyone is just waiting until next week.
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Oh sorry TDMM. I'll submit mine by the end of the weekend.
 
You might want to make a separate thread indicating to send in lists. I didn't know it was time until I was bored one day and wandered in here.
 
Jagorim Jarg said:
You might want to make a separate thread indicating to send in lists. I didn't know it was time until I was bored one day and wandered in here.
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Yes, please. I think it would be good to sticky a thread with the instructions and the deadlines.
 
The instructions and deadlines have been posted here, but I should have changed the title to make things more clear. Did that now. Also PMing people who posted in this thread.

More things:

1) don't worry about rushing to get a list in. I'd rather have to delay the project by a few days and get well thought out lists than thrown together ones

2) if you haven't received a confirmation within 48 hours, assume we didn't get your list
 
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Just a few questions....

- How did you guys treated the Pre-"Broad Street Bullies" years of Bernard Parent? The guy was pretty good, but if his whole career would have looked that that, if probably wouldn't have gotten a sniff at the Top-60, or, at the very best, would be at the bottom of the rankings.

and, the somewhat related question

- In my preliminary rankings, I have Giacomin really close to Parent. Is it consistent with what you guys have/had?
 
MXD said:
Just a few questions....

- How did you guys treated the Pre-"Broad Street Bullies" years of Bernard Parent? The guy was pretty good, but if his whole career would have looked that that, if probably wouldn't have gotten a sniff at the Top-60, or, at the very best, would be at the bottom of the rankings.

and, the somewhat related question

- In my preliminary rankings, I have Giacomin really close to Parent. Is it consistent with what you guys have/had?
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I have Parent a lot higher than Giacomin. Parent got his 1st teams over peak Esposito and 1 of them over Dryden. Goaltending competiton was pretty weak when Giacomin got his all star nods. There's also the fact that Parent's overall stats look worse than they probably should because his team took so many penalties. Playoffs are the biggest difference though

But then I probably rank Giacomin lower than most. I see him as someone with a short career, who faced weak competition in his prime, and who was terrible in the playoffs relative to goaltenders with similar accolades. To be honest, I think his career looks a lot like Luongo's when you factor in strength of competition.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe said:
I have Parent a lot higher than Giacomin. Parent got his 1st teams over peak Esposito and 1 of them over Dryden. Goaltending competiton was pretty weak when Giacomin got his all star nods. There's also the fact that Parent's overall stats look worse than they probably should because his team took so many penalties. Playoffs are the biggest difference though

But then I probably rank Giacomin lower than most. I see him as someone with a short career, who faced weak competition in his prime, and who was terrible in the playoffs relative to goaltenders with similar accolades. To be honest, I think his career looks a lot like Luongo's when you factor in strength of competition.
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I lean towards this line of thinking as well...without looking at my list, I'm pretty sure I have Parent 15-20 spots higher than Giacomin.
 
The plan is to only add 4 guys per round, and we could start to increase the number of candidates past 8 pretty early. I'm thinking of allowing up to 2 weeks for the first round and going from there
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
I have Parent a lot higher than Giacomin. Parent got his 1st teams over peak Esposito and 1 of them over Dryden. Goaltending competiton was pretty weak when Giacomin got his all star nods. There's also the fact that Parent's overall stats look worse than they probably should because his team took so many penalties. Playoffs are the biggest difference though

But then I probably rank Giacomin lower than most. I see him as someone with a short career, who faced weak competition in his prime, and who was terrible in the playoffs relative to goaltenders with similar accolades. To be honest, I think his career looks a lot like Luongo's when you factor in strength of competition.
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could there in fact be an argument for luongo ahead of giacomin?

trophy case says no. giacomin has 2 first teams and 3 seconds. luongo has 2 seconds. each has a jennings/old vezina.


AST voting (1st through 8th):

giacomin: 2, 3, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0 1

luongo: 0, 2, 3, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1


hart voting:

giacomin: 2nd, 7th, 7th, 8th

luongo: 2nd, 6th, 10th, 12th, 17th


so the trophy case isn't quite as different as first/second team all-stars make it seem on first glance.

add to that each guy having been to one finals, and i don't know that luongo's already greater longevity (both in terms of being a hart factor, however fringe, and giacomin's 8 seasons as a starter vs. luongo's 11) doesn't put him slightly ahead.

re: parent, short peak but back to back vezinas/1st ASTs/cups/conn smythes is one of the greatest two-year goaltending peaks of all time. i would find it very hard not put him significantly higher than giacomin and luongo if i were submitting a list. incidentally, vanbiesbrouck is another guy i'd put in the giacomin/luongo tier.
 
Giacomin pretty much won his all-star teams by default, and his numbers weren't any better than Villemure's. See TCG's article on this. (i can't link to it from work)
 
Keep in mind too that Luongo is pretty unlucky not to have 1-2 Vezinas. His 2006-07 season was better than the majority of Vezina winning seasons IMO, but that happened to also be the best regular season of Martin Brodeur's career and Brodeur narrowly won the award. And there's at least an argument that if Luongo's team was better in 2003-04, he wins that Vezina. In reality, he didn't come close, as GMs (and to a lesser extent writers) are very reluctant to vote for a goalie whose team isn't close to the playoffs.

Just look at the All Star voting you put up there. Are Giacomin's 2 1sts and 3 2nds really better than Luongo's 2 2nds and 3 3rds when you consider the competiton gap? Giacomin's peak almost perfectly coincides with the period between the decline of the great O6 goalies and the emergence of the great 70s goalies.

I think I had Giacomin, Luongo, and Beezer very close on my list
 
The problem with Giacomin is -- I can't resolve to put him that far apart from Vachon, which I had in the outer fringe of the Top-30 and whose non-Hab body of work could be wrapped up by the sentence "Rich-Man's Luongo". Those guys were kindof competitors at some point - usually at the advantage of Giacomin, awards-wise - though Vachon did better later on and had a significantly longer career, all the while being used much more than Giacomin ever was (... past 1970).

The other problem with Giacomin regarding other well-received ideas is that there isn't much separating him from Johnny Bower either, from their sorta late debut in the league due to O6 context to the fact that they mainly split duties at the 2nd half of their careers.

Giacomin probably looks better on paper, but if gets some "downplay" due to the factors explained by TGC in his article, then then the same "factors" should apply as well to Bower (to a certain extent).
 
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MXD said:
The problem with Giacomin is -- I can't resolve to put him that far apart from Vachon, which I had in the outer fringe of the Top-30 and whose non-Hab body of work could be wrapped up by the sentence "Rich-Man's Luongo". Those guys were kindof competitors at some point - usually at the advantage of Giacomin, awards-wise - though Vachon did better later on and had a significantly longer career, all the while being used much more than Giacomin ever was (... past 1970).
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I also don't think much separates Giacomin from Vachon - I had them very close to each other on my list too.

The other problem with Giacomin regarding other well-received ideas is that there isn't much separating him from Johnny Bower either, from their sorta late debut in the league due to O6 context to the fact that they mainly split duties at the 2nd half of their careers.

Giacomin probably looks better on paper, but if gets some "downplay" due to the factors explained by TGC in his article, then then the same "factors" should apply as well to Bower (to a certain extent).
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Bower gets a lot of credit for outstanding play in the playoffs and Giacomin gets a lot of blame for poor play in the playoffs. So to that extent, they are very different.

On the other hand, I always have trouble justifying the consistently high ranking of Johnny Bower on hfboards. At first glance, his resume seems to be basically "Billy Smith plus a long career in the O6 AHL," yet he seems canonized around here as much higher than Smith. Bower has to be the only Original 6 player who was part of a dynasty that hfboards ranks significantly higher than THN, right?
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
could there in fact be an argument for luongo ahead of giacomin?

trophy case says no. giacomin has 2 first teams and 3 seconds. luongo has 2 seconds. each has a jennings/old vezina.


AST voting (1st through 8th):

giacomin: 2, 3, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0 1

luongo: 0, 2, 3, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1


hart voting:

giacomin: 2nd, 7th, 7th, 8th

luongo: 2nd, 6th, 10th, 12th, 17th


so the trophy case isn't quite as different as first/second team all-stars make it seem on first glance.

add to that each guy having been to one finals, and i don't know that luongo's already greater longevity (both in terms of being a hart factor, however fringe, and giacomin's 8 seasons as a starter vs. luongo's 11) doesn't put him slightly ahead.

re: parent, short peak but back to back vezinas/1st ASTs/cups/conn smythes is one of the greatest two-year goaltending peaks of all time. i would find it very hard not put him significantly higher than giacomin and luongo if i were submitting a list. incidentally, vanbiesbrouck is another guy i'd put in the giacomin/luongo tier.
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The fact that Luongo fell on his face in the finals and cost his team a Cup only a year ago for everyone to see certainly hurts his cause. Not redeeming himself this year also leaves a negative image.
 
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