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HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

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*peeks in again*
Hrudey.......wtf? Wait what?...I hope the complete lack of Irbe love/no discussion period is just me skimming over those posts. =[
 
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I really tried to get Irbe into my list, but ultimately could not do it.

This is kind of off-topic because I'm thinking he didn't make any lists...but does Gilles Meloche fall into that gigantic sea of 60-100th all-time? I didn't even look at him for my list, but I think he's 15th all time in GGP (most GA ever with Fuhr), but of all those goalies in the top 15 or 20 of GP all-time, few suffered through the highest scoring era in history quite like him (along with Fuhr, to some extent Roy and Barrasso - who at least climbed into the dead puck era a bit). Meloche played for the expansion Golden Seals, the Cleveland Barons, the underacheiving, injury-riddled North Stars and the all night crap-a-rama late 80's Penguins...still has a few top-10 finishes in wins and GAA...2x All-Star...

Just curious of the thoughts on him in this relative down time...
 
I thought seriously about Meloche - if you ever wanted to make an argument that the biggest factor influencing a goaltender's ability is his team, Meloche would be exhibit one.
 
Canadiens1958 said:
Gilles Meloche never played 60 games during the regular season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/melocgi01.html

Stamina issues.

Post Ken Dryden the Canadiens had a choice between him and Denis Herron who did play 60+ games a few times.
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Meloche's career high was 59 games, and he had several seasons in the 50+ range.

The only time Herron played more than 60 was a 64 game season with the Kansas City Scouts where the other goaltender went 1-16-1. It seems to be more of a case where the Scouts didn't have another option (whether Herron was fatigued or not).

The difference between Meloche and Herron, stamina wise, isn't nearly as large as your post suggests.
 
Goalies and Stamina

Stamina is partially a function of scheduling.

In the 70 game regular season O6 era, pre 1980's post expansion period, teams would regularly play 3 games in 4 nights or even 4 games in 5 nights - (Th/Sat/Sun or Wed/Thur/Sat/Sun). At times the Sunday game was an afternoon game after a Saturday night game. the Hockey Summary Project illustrates the scheduling changes over the various eras very well.

At a macro analysis level the difference between 50+ games and 60+ regular season games may be negligible.

NHL teams picked starting goalies for each game at the micro analysis level. Skaters and goalies were/are evaluated by shift, period, game. Coaches and teams had the data about the performance of goalies in the various scheduling circumstances. Indicators that are negligible at the macro level may become significant at the micro level.
 
Sure, it "may" be significant. And it "may not" be.

If you can convince me that the Scouts used Herron 64 times that year because of his impressive stamina, and not because they were a second-year expansion team with no better option, then I'll be very impressed.
 
Mike Farkas said:
I really tried to get Irbe into my list, but ultimately could not do it.

This is kind of off-topic because I'm thinking he didn't make any lists...but does Gilles Meloche fall into that gigantic sea of 60-100th all-time? I didn't even look at him for my list, but I think he's 15th all time in GGP (most GA ever with Fuhr), but of all those goalies in the top 15 or 20 of GP all-time, few suffered through the highest scoring era in history quite like him (along with Fuhr, to some extent Roy and Barrasso - who at least climbed into the dead puck era a bit). Meloche played for the expansion Golden Seals, the Cleveland Barons, the underacheiving, injury-riddled North Stars and the all night crap-a-rama late 80's Penguins...still has a few top-10 finishes in wins and GAA...2x All-Star...

Just curious of the thoughts on him in this relative down time...
Click to expand...

The more I think about it, if I sat down to figure it out, the sea could very well be 60-160. He's probably there.
 
how many instances of a goalie playing 60+ games were there from 1970-1990 and how many in the 20 years after that?

criticizing meloche for rarely playing 60 games is not fair to him. It's a lot like criticizing Jean Beliveau for rarely hitting 90 points. The only reason he didn't is the era (lower scoring, shorter schedule)

Meloche finished 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th in minutes played, and 3 more times in the top-10, so he would classify as a workhorse. this isn't too far from Grant Fuhr, for example, who played further into the "workhorse era", but finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 10th in minutes.
 
Canadiens1958 said:
Gilles Meloche never played 60 games during the regular season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/melocgi01.html

Stamina issues.

Post Ken Dryden the Canadiens had a choice between him and Denis Herron who did play 60+ games a few times.
Click to expand...

Really? A guy with 2 X 60+ game seasons, 3 X 50+ seasons, over a 5 X 50+, and 8 X 40+ goalie based on stamina?

Most games played in a season Bold before 79-80
Player|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Herron| 64 | 60 | 56 |42|38| 34 |34|31|27| 25
Meloche| 59 | 56 |54| 54 | 53 |52|51| 51 | 47 | 47

Herron only played more games in a season three times before 79-80 and only once afterwards.

I find it hard to believe they put that much weight on a handful of games.
 
Goalie Stamina

seventieslord said:
how many instances of a goalie playing 60+ games were there from 1970-1990 and how many in the 20 years after that?

criticizing meloche for rarely playing 60 games is not fair to him. It's a lot like criticizing Jean Beliveau for rarely hitting 90 points. The only reason he didn't is the era (lower scoring, shorter schedule)

Meloche finished 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th in minutes played, and 3 more times in the top-10, so he would classify as a workhorse. this isn't too far from Grant Fuhr, for example, who played further into the "workhorse era", but finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 10th in minutes.
Click to expand...

Stamina, games played, and minutes played are three distinct elements of describing a goalie's play.

Playing 180 minutes, over three complete games in four nights, is different then playing 180 minutes over three complete games in seven nights. Then playing 180 minutes over 4 games inc partials.


Then you have the issue of performance in the last minutes or period of each game during the segment.

The issue is describing accurately how the goalie played.
 
Canadiens1958 said:
Then you have the issue of performance in the last minutes or period of each game during the segment.
Click to expand...

Do you have evidence that Meloche did poorly in this regard?

Also, I'm not sure what your example of playing 180 minutes in four night versus in seven nights has to do with anything, since you haven't linked that to Meloche, either.
 
regardless of anything C1958 said, the exact same thing can apply to the vast majority of other goalies in Meloche's time.... except that they played even fewer minutes.

The "stamina" issue is a GP stat-based issue and when you boil it down, it's little more than penalizing a guy for when he played.
 
I had Gilles Meloche in my top 60. The '70s and '80s are very tough to evaluate because the team effects are so huge, but Meloche solidly outplayed his backups over the first 10 years of his career, he broke in early and stuck around late (which usually indicates talent), and some contemporary observers did rate him pretty highly (although certainly not all). I'm not entirely sold on him, his save percentage is basically league average although his teams were pretty terrible, but there aren't any sure things around that level on the list.

Are average numbers on bad teams better than good numbers on great teams? I think it's certainly possible, especially during the '70s. In the end for me it came down to a choice between Meloche and a bunch of guys with better stats and reputations but who might not have been any better than their teammates.
 
As for Meloche, 60 was too little for me to include. Is he in the Top-100? Pretty sure.

The thing is -- there are somewhat similar goalies that I'd have picked before him. Irbe comes to mind. I hesitated a while before between him and Hextall for the last spot on my list... And I finally ended up giving it to Hextall.

But it was 61st, so none made it in the end.

Another guy I considered, and that I'd consider ahead of Meloche, is Dan Bouchard, who outplayed his partners for most of his career. Playoff record is sortof explainable, but just TOO underwhelming.

Actually, CG... Do you have Bouchard on your list?
 
Meloche vs Herron,

BM67 said:
Really? A guy with 2 X 60+ game seasons, 3 X 50+ seasons, over a 5 X 50+, and 8 X 40+ goalie based on stamina?

Most games played in a season Bold before 79-80
Player|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
Herron| 64 | 60 | 56 |42|38| 34 |34|31|27| 25
Meloche| 59 | 56 |54| 54 | 53 |52|51| 51 | 47 | 47

Herron only played more games in a season three times before 79-80 and only once afterwards.

I find it hard to believe they put that much weight on a handful of games.
Click to expand...

Gilles Meloche, age 22, appeared in 59 games, playing 3473 minutes during the 1972-73 for the California Golden Seals:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/melocgi01.html

his back-up was Marv Edwards, who appeared in 22 games.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/e/edwarma01.html

During the 1972-73 season, Gilles Meloche averaged 58.86 minutes per GP. The 1972-73 Golden Seals schedule featured 7 stretches of three games in four days and 3 stretches of four games in five days.

Gilles Meloche NEVER played four games in five days nor three games in four days. In fact Gilles Meloche never played complete games on consecutive days during the stretches in question.

After the 1972-73 season Gilles Meloche never appeared in more than 54 games in a season.

Denis Herron, appeared in 64 games during the 1975-76 season for the Kansas City Scouts:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/herrode01.html

His back-up was Bill McKenzie:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mckenbi01.html

During the 1975-76 season, Denis Herron averaged 56.25 minutes per GP. The 1975-76 Scouts schedule featured 11 stretches of three games in four days and 2 stretches of four games in five days.

Denis Herron played four games in five days Dec, 16,17,19,20 = 2W/2L.90.4 SV% and three games in four days, 4 times.,Included was an impressive stretch March 27 - 59 shots,28-53 shots,30-52 shots. 3L, 87.8 SV%. Post 1975-76 had seasons where he appeared in 60 and 56 games.

Herron had injury problems and playing in Montreal did not suit him very well.

Thank to the HSP for the game summary data.
 
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Gilles Meloche NEVER played four games in five days
Click to expand...

and how many times did his teams actually play games that frequently?

And, considering he tended to play about 70% of his team's games, why would you expect that he would play 100% of them in a 4-in-5 stretch? that's exactly when you would want the other goalie to come in.

lastly, if you're going to judge the "stamina" of these goalies based on their performance in these tightly-scheduled games, shouldn't you only look at the 3rd and/or 4th games? there's nothing special or unique about game 1 or 2 of these series; in theory, it's games 3 and 4 where you would begin to see these fatigue effects you think exist.
 
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