HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

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TheDevilMadeMe

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If the list was done now, who would move up, who would move down?

Guys from before 1940 and after 1980 would move up. Guys from between 1940 and 1980 would move down. In 2009, the HOH board had fully bought into the "Golden Age of Hockey" and now that seems to be a minority opinion. Not sure why, but there was definitely a major shift there

In other words, I used to be the HOH's version of a raging liberal, and now, without really changing my opinion much (IMO at least), I'm more of a moderate.
 

Sturminator

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Guys from before 1940 and after 1980 would move up. Guys from between 1940 and 1980 would move down. In 2009, the HOH board had fully bought into the "Golden Age of Hockey" and now that seems to be a minority opinion. Not sure why, but there was definitely a major shift there

In other words, I used to be the HOH's version of a raging liberal, and now, without really changing my opinion much (IMO at least), I'm more of a moderate.

I'm pretty much in the same spot. Does this mean the liberals won?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I would guess that Makarov and Forsberg would be the big movers, while Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Selanne, Iginla, and St. Louis would make their debut appearances.

I cant see Malkin, Iginla, or St. Louis making a top 70. Maybe if this list went on to a top 100 as planned (and as the 2008 did). Still all of them? I dunno.

One guy who didn't make this top 70 who almost definitely would now is Frank Nighbor. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes over Cyclone Taylor and Newsy Lalonde.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I cant see Malkin, Iginla, or St. Louis making a top 70. Maybe if this list went on to a top 100 as planned (and as the 2008 did). Still all of them? I dunno.

One guy who didn't make this top 70 who almost definitely would now is Frank Nighbor. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes over Cyclone Taylor and Newsy Lalonde.

Though Nighbor would make the list, I don't see him passing Lalonde or Taylor.

I could see Malkin making the list. Three First team All-Star selections, two scoring titles, a Hart Trophy and a Conn Smythe Trophy. Not to mention how he carries the Pens when Crosby's out.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Though Nighbor would make the list, I don't see him passing Lalonde or Taylor.

I could see Malkin making the list. Three First team All-Star selections, two scoring titles, a Hart Trophy and a Conn Smythe Trophy. Not to mention how he carries the Pens when Crosby's out.

I'm probably going to have Nighbor over Taylor and Lalonde in the centers project, but I'm just one person (though I'm sure at least a few others will). By all accounts, Nighbor really was the lynchpin of the Senators dynasty and widely considered the best player in the world at his peak.

The argument for Nighbor over Taylor (which convinced me recently when someone else made it) is that Nighbor was the centerpiece of a better team than Taylor was, and yet Nighbor's team seemed lost when he couldn't play.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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I'm probably going to have Nighbor over Taylor and Lalonde in the centers project, but I'm just one person (though I'm sure at least a few others will). By all accounts, Nighbor really was the lynchpin of the Senators dynasty and widely considered the best player in the world at his peak.

The argument for Nighbor over Taylor (which convinced me recently when someone else made it) is that Nighbor was the centerpiece of a better team than Taylor was, and yet Nighbor's team seemed lost when he couldn't play.

Nighbor has some really odd numbers for a player of his perceived caliber.

The year he won the Hart Trophy he wasn't in the top 5 in goals or points or goals created. His teammate, Cy Denneny, was first in all three categories. Denneny consistently outscored Nighbor in their career.

When Nighbor won the Lady Byng in 1926 he had 40 penalty minutes. Denneny had 18 (and outscored Nighbor handily again).

Seems as if he was a very well-liked fellow.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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I'm probably going to have Nighbor over Taylor and Lalonde in the centers project, but I'm just one person (though I'm sure at least a few others will). By all accounts, Nighbor really was the lynchpin of the Senators dynasty and widely considered the best player in the world at his peak.

The argument for Nighbor over Taylor (which convinced me recently when someone else made it) is that Nighbor was the centerpiece of a better team than Taylor was, and yet Nighbor's team seemed lost when he couldn't play.

What's the argument over lalonde?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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What's the argument over lalonde?

I think the argument for Nighbor over Lalonde is easier to make than Nighbor over Taylor. Basically, both men spend most of their careers in the NHA/NHL, and their careers overlapped so most of the same people saw both of them play. And as far as I can tell, it was more or less a consensus among people who saw them at the time that Nighbor was better.

The MacLean's "All-Time All-Star Team" is one example: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=55675987&postcount=307

Edit: Stuminator had good commentary on that list when it was posted during ATD2011, but without knowing the names of the heavyweights who voted on it (which is available in the link I posted):

This document is quite revealing of how contemporary players were viewed relative to one another, at least in the eastern leagues. The cross-generational comparisons, however, are vastly more questionable. Let's be honest: the old-timers are pretty well overrepresented here. For example, does anyone really believe that Scotty Davidson had a better career than Cyclone Taylor or Cy Denneny? Don't get ahead of yourself throwing a parade for Hod Stuart.

This document does allow us, however, to break the contemporaries fairly well into tiers. Of the old generation, we have Stuart, Bowie and Phillips at the top, though we cannot differentiate one from another. Frank McGee's absence is rather telling, but probably means nothing more than that he was the second best center of his generation and there was no room for him with Nighbor, Bowie and Lalonde already on the list. Same goes for the exclusion of Joe Malone, in all likelihood. Percy Lesueur seems to be regarded as the greatest old-time goalie.

Among the more recent generation, we have more reinforcement of Frank Nighbor's supremacy, and of Cleghorn's status as the greatest defenseman of his generation. Boucher, Gerard, Dye and Lalonde fall into the second tier. The placement of the three contemporary goalies (Vezina, Benedict and Lehman) relative to one another is much more problematic due to Vezina's illness, Benedict's shame and Lehman's distance from the hockey centers in the east. It is somewhat telling, however, that Lehman appears on the list and Holmes does not.

At any rate, like all historical documents, it must be looked upon critically and within the context of the time, and is limited in the scope of its usefulness. I wish we had information on exactly how the vote was conducted and exactly who voted.
 
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tommygunn

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One guy who didn't make this top 70 who almost definitely would now is Frank Nighbor. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes over Cyclone Taylor and Newsy Lalonde.

In my submitted list (in 2009), I had: Taylor 15th, Lalonde 16th, and Nighbor 20th..
 

tommygunn

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Dec 2, 2008
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He's being considered one in the HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time thread, since we won't be voting for top rovers.

Interesting..

He also received a number of votes in the 'HOH Top 60 Defensemen' poll, and was considered a left winger in the Maclean's poll cited above by TheDevilMadeMe..
 

Canadiens1958

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Appropriate Commentary

I think the argument for Nighbor over Lalonde is easier to make than Nighbor over Taylor. Basically, both men spend most of their careers in the NHA/NHL, and their careers overlapped so most of the same people saw both of them play. And as far as I can tell, it was more or less a consensus among people who saw them at the time that Nighbor was better.

The MacLean's "All-Time All-Star Team" is one example: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=55675987&postcount=307

Edit: Stuminator had good commentary on that list when it was posted during ATD2011, but without knowing the names of the heavyweights who voted on it (which is available in the link I posted):
______________________________________________________
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post

This document is quite revealing of how contemporary players were viewed relative to one another, at least in the eastern leagues. The cross-generational comparisons, however, are vastly more questionable. Let's be honest: the old-timers are pretty well overrepresented here. For example, does anyone really believe that Scotty Davidson had a better career than Cyclone Taylor or Cy Denneny? Don't get ahead of yourself throwing a parade for Hod Stuart.

This document does allow us, however, to break the contemporaries fairly well into tiers. Of the old generation, we have Stuart, Bowie and Phillips at the top, though we cannot differentiate one from another. Frank McGee's absence is rather telling, but probably means nothing more than that he was the second best center of his generation and there was no room for him with Nighbor, Bowie and Lalonde already on the list. Same goes for the exclusion of Joe Malone, in all likelihood. Percy Lesueur seems to be regarded as the greatest old-time goalie.

Among the more recent generation, we have more reinforcement of Frank Nighbor's supremacy, and of Cleghorn's status as the greatest defenseman of his generation. Boucher, Gerard, Dye and Lalonde fall into the second tier. The placement of the three contemporary goalies (Vezina, Benedict and Lehman) relative to one another is much more problematic due to Vezina's illness, Benedict's shame and Lehman's distance from the hockey centers in the east. It is somewhat telling, however, that Lehman appears on the list and Holmes does not.

At any rate, like all historical documents, it must be looked upon critically and within the context of the time, and is limited in the scope of its usefulness. I wish we had information on exactly how the vote was conducted and exactly who voted.
______________________________________________________

Interesting commentary but how accurate is it? The bolded analysis of the goalies is particularly questionable. The list was published March 15, 1925, at the start of the 1925 playoffs right after the end of the 1924-25 season. So the list had to be compiled during the 1924-25 season. Georges Vezina was healthy by all accounts. In fact he had his NHL career best GAA - see below.Vezina's health issues surfaced in the opening game of the 1925-26 season, months after the list was published. Vezina's illness could not have been a factor in the vote.

Origins of the MacLean's "All-Time All-Star Team" March 15, 1925 issue:

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hockhist/conversations/topics/20402

Georges Vezina:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/v/vezinge01.html

The other issue touches the generational questions. Scotty Davidson Babe Dye and George Richardson are the three RWs. Early days of hockey saw a dirth at RW because of the handedness issue:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sS0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EZkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6918,87411

lack of RHS RWs. described in 1934 but recognized long before as evidenced by the voters and D.A.L. MacDonald.

The defensemen. Who else? Sprague Cleghorn dominates throughout. Beyond that you have post WWI players to consider - Joe Simpson and others like Herb Gardiner, Merv Dutton whose entry into pro hockey was delayed by by WWI. Lester Patrick and Hod Stuart are responsible choices.

The east - west issue. The Patrick's raided the east for their players and the east managed to survive and prosper. The eastern voters had seen all the players who went west. Lehman had to go west to establish himself. Holmes was a bit of a mercenary. True western players that qualified as top three at a position were hard to find.

Very reasonable list put together by the leading hockey observers of the day using the standards of the era.
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Was there an era criteria for the list, because there are some pre NHA/PCHA players who could have been on the list.

Dan Bain was named Canada's top athlete of the last half of the 19th century. He was arguably the best player of the 1890s.

Also one could make cases for some of the Silver Seven players.

I was just wondering if players from the very early days of hockey were considered.
 

VanIslander

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Was there an era criteria for the list, because there are some pre NHA/PCHA players who could have been on the list.

Dan Bain was named Canada's top athlete of the last half of the 19th century. He was arguably the best player of the 1890s.

Also one could make cases for some of the Silver Seven players.
Agreed.

I was just wondering if players from the very early days of hockey were considered.
Not as much as they would be today. Perhaps a HOH Top-70 of 2014 would be apt (5 years after the last stab).
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Which silver seven players could one make a case four in the top 70?

How about Frank McGee? HHOF website said he was "the cornerstone of one of the gretest teams in history [Ottawa Senators]...[O]ne of the most feared offensive threats of his day". Also not to mention, he holds the record for most goals scored in a SCF game with 14 goals (albeit in a higher scoring era). Still none of his peers during his day could reach that mark. Plus when he retired he and Russell Bowie were the only players to average 3 goals per game.

Would Hod Stuart also be a possibility? He was probably the greatest defenceman (cover-point) of his era. The guy was also a very early version of Bobby Orr.

Another guy one could make a case for would be Russell Bowie.

I know a lot of time went into making this list, but I'm just wondering if they were at least considered. If they were and did not cut the Top-70 list, it's fine by me. But once again I'd like to know if players from this era were looked at.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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How about Frank McGee? HHOF website said he was "the cornerstone of one of the gretest teams in history [Ottawa Senators]...[O]ne of the most feared offensive threats of his day". Also not to mention, he holds the record for most goals scored in a SCF game with 14 goals (albeit in a higher scoring era). Still none of his peers during his day could reach that mark. Plus when he retired he and Russell Bowie were the only players to average 3 goals per game.

Would Hod Stuart also be a possibility? He was probably the greatest defenceman (cover-point) of his era. The guy was also a very early version of Bobby Orr.

Another guy one could make a case for would be Russell Bowie.

I know a lot of time went into making this list, but I'm just wondering if they were at least considered. If they were and did not cut the Top-70 list, it's fine by me. But once again I'd like to know if players from this era were looked at.

Unfortunately, the source files for this list were lost when FissionFire's hard drive went kaput (which is why for newer projects on this board, we are making sure to upload all the files to an email address that 2 admins have access to).

Here is the aggregate list that was used to create the candidates for the 2008 Top 100 list. The 2009 Top 70 list was to be a Top 100 list itself, an update of the 2008 list: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=539903
 

TheMachiavelli*

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Why are there no Makarov, Fetisov, Tretiak, Maltsev, Khalamov in the top 10 or top 5? This list is ridiculously biased. Where is Salming?
 

Bear of Bad News

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Why are there no Makarov, Fetisov, Tretiak, Maltsev, Khalamov in the top 10 or top 5? This list is ridiculously biased. Where is Salming?

Everyone has biases (even you), and by necessity, any compilation of voting will propagate those biases.

Having said that, feel free to:
  • Read the thread itself. You might learn something.
  • Participate next time.
Perhaps your top five has those five Russians and Salming all included. Feel free to justify it, because that seems far more "ridiculously biased" than the final list turned out to be.
 
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