HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 8

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,978
515
Seat of the Empire
Moog ran into a lot of strong opposition in the playoffs. His teams were eliminated by:

93 Sabres
94 Canucks
97 Oilers
Is this a joke? .512, .506, .494. "Strong opposition, Liut killed by breeze."

Meanwhile the reality of Liut's opponents (bolded if worse record than Liut's team's):
.544 CHI
.463 NYR
.450 CHI
.650 CHI
.550 MIN
.544 MTL
.450 QUE
.644 MTL
.631 BOS
.550 PIT
2/10

Out of 10 series he lost, only twice did Liut lose to an inferior team. Superpowered Habs, Bruins & Pens apparently count for nothing.

Meanwhile Fuhr's losses:
.556 CGY
.569 LAK
.425 MIN
.607 MTL
.573 DET
.628 DET
.695 DAL
2/7

Moog's losses:
.688 NYI
.600 NYI
.619 EDM
.719 MTL
.563 EDM
.550 PIT

.544 PIT
.512 BUF
.506 VAN

.729 DET
.494 EDM
.543 BUF
5/12

Liut and Fuhr similar, Moog far behind, QED
 

The Pale King

Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
Sep 24, 2011
3,244
2,715
Zeballos
Regular season points vs. playoff opponent is not a metric I've really considered before. But just because I'm curious, all six of J. Quick's series losses were to teams that finished ahead of the Kings in the standings. He never lost to an underdog. He also looks damn good in the series clinching/elimination games table. All of this is exactly what the eye test would tell you.

The only times his teams had a higher points percentage than their playoff opponents was against the Devils and Rangers in the Stanley Cup finals, and once against the Sharks in 2012-13. The Blackhawks and Kings had an identical points percentage in 2013-14, the second year they met in the WCF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nabby12

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,341
1,179
Is this a joke? .512, .506, .494. "Strong opposition, Liut killed by breeze."

Meanwhile the reality of Liut's opponents (bolded if worse record than Liut's team's):
.544 CHI
.463 NYR
.450 CHI
.650 CHI
.550 MIN
.
544 MTL
.450 QUE
.644 MTL
.631 BOS

.550 PIT
2/10

Out of 10 series he lost, only twice did Liut lose to an inferior team. Superpowered Habs, Bruins & Pens apparently count for nothing.

Meanwhile Fuhr's losses:
.556 CGY
.569 LAK
.425 MIN
.607 MTL
.573 DET
.628 DET
.695 DAL

2/7

Moog's losses:
.688 NYI
.600 NYI
.619 EDM
.719 MTL
.563 EDM
.550 PIT

.544 PIT

.512 BUF
.506 VAN

.729 DET
.494 EDM
.543 BUF
5/12

Liut and Fuhr similar, Moog far behind, QED

No joke.

In the quote I've highlighted the Stanley Cup Finals teams in blue and the other guys in red.

Before the loss to the 86 Habs, in the round immediately after defeating Liut, the combined record of every team that beat him is a very breezy 1-20 (his Blues career).

The 86 Habs and 91 Pens are the only teams that went on to win another playoff round in Liut's list.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,523
15,919
Tuukka Rask
Regular Season

I actually really like Tuukka compared to modern age goalies. In an age when consistency is terribly hard to come by, where goalies are getting nominated for Vezinas one year just to fall off the face of the earth the next, Tuukka was the model of consistency.

I posted this a couple rounds earlier in a post about Luongo, I'll post again.

Of notable retired goalies (plus Fleury and Quick) who hit their primes after 2000 and may come up for discussion, here is how this consistency compares.

Percentage of Full Seasons With Above Average SV%
1. Rask - 100% (12/12)
2. Luongo - 84% (16/19)
3. Lundqvist - 80% (12/15)
4. Thomas - 75% (6/8)
5. Holtby - 70% (7/10)
6. Fleury - 65% (13/20)
7. Nabokov - 64% (9/14)
8. Brodeur post 2000 - 64% (9/14)
9. Quick - 59% (10/17)
10. Price - 57% (8/14)
11. Kiprusoff - 55% (6/11)
12. Rinne - 54% (7/13)

Rask is the ONLY goalie to never fall below average in SV% his entire career even compared to legends already inducted.

His QS% is a .608 throughout his career. Notably ahead of other contemporaries like Price (.574), Rinne (.572), Holtby (.571), Quick (.531), and Fleury (.551).

His prime regular season years are also pretty good:

2010: 1st in SV%, 8th in GSAx, 3rd in GSAA, 5th All Star, 7th Vezina
2011-2012: best backup in the league to prime Tim Thomas
2013: 3rd in SV%, 2nd in GSAx, 4th in GSAA, 4th All Star, 5th Vezina
2014: 2nd in SV%, 12th in GSAx (interesting), 2nd in GSAA, 1st All Star, 1st Vezina
2015-2019: .917 SV%, easily top 5 goalie in this time
2020: 2nd in SV%, 2nd in GSAx, 1st in GSAA, 2nd All Star, 2nd Vezina

Playoffs
People also like to shoot down his playoffs, but it is of note that he led the playoffs in SV% three times for starting goalies who made it past the first round (2013, 2014, 2019) and his career playoff SV% is a .925, up from his regular season. Not the full picture, definitely some asterisks there but he's hardly a bad playoff goalie.

Someone commented about the 2013 finals meltdown, but I find that hard to put that on Rask. In the final two minutes he gives up two goals but the tying goal is a cross-crease one timer where Lucic fails to pick up his man after an insane Patty Kane zone entry and Toews pass. The shot is almost from in the crease, and the Hawks had 6 men on the attack. Not on Rask. The winning goal comes off of an insane redirect followed by a rebound off the post - another shot from in the crease where Boychuk was caught puck watching instead of covering his man. Again, not on Rask. He still had a .932 SV% that series and a .940 SV% (!!!) all playoffs. He likely would have won the Conn Smythe that year had Boston won.

Fun fact he also handed Crosby his only sweep ever until the 2019 playoffs that year with a .985 SV%.

Another fun fact is that he had a .938 in the four 2014 Olympics games he played and a .920 SV% in the two 2016 World Cup games he played.

The Bads (kinda?)
Now, he never peaked very high for very long, but he still has his 2014 Vezina season, his 2020 Vezina runner up year, and even his 2010 rookie season where he led the league in SV%. His GSAx (MoneyPuck) stats also have him second in the league in 2013 as well.

It is important to note that he did retire early due to injury and never had that downward trajectory that many other goalies have. But he still has 12 seasons with above average SV% which is more than anyone listed except for Fleury and Lu who both played 20 and 19 seasons respectively.

In terms of playoffs, his 2010 meltdown againt Philly sticks out, his 2014 series against Montreal sucked (although the first round against Detroit was a clinic), both his 2018 series aren't great. Game 7 of the SCF against St. Louis was bad but the other six games were good to great. His final series against the Isles sucked. But overall I'd say he's 12 for 17 in playoff series (worst case 10 for 17 depending on how you rate the 2019 finals and 2017 against Ottawa), that's still pretty good.

He also played on a very defensive Bruins team his whole career. How you adjust for that is going to be up to you. You surely can't blame him for that though.

Final Thoughts
Rask is maybe the most consistently good goalie of the 2010s. You can pretty much always count on him to put up an above average game.

His peak is also solid, a fist and a second Vezina season is great. Never was the best goalie in the world for more than one season at a time maybe, but who was when getting this far down the list? His playoffs are great, right about in line with his regular season performances if not a bit better - again, consistency.

On a personal note I also love his playstyle. You almost never caught him out of position, he was very calm in net, barely ever overreacted. Even if you watch his highlight reel desperation saves, it's never because he overcommited to a puck or flailed out of position and used his athleticism to recover (like Fleury for example), the saves are all from his puck tracking and fast reaction timing that were literally the most efficient way to make the stop. That kind of stability puts a team at ease.
Always great to see a long, thoughtful post from a non-participant.

I'm sure Mike Farkas (and a few others) might have similar comments, but if you take Rask's numbers at face value, he's probably deserving for this round. The question is - how much are those numbers due to Rask himself, and how much of it is him playing in front of such a responsible, disciplined team?

During the span of Rask's career, Bruins goalies, aside from Rask himself, had a 91.9% save percentage, which is barely lower than Rask's 92.1%. And aside from 159 games of Tim Thomas, this wasn't exactly a great group of netminders (a past-his-prime Jaroslav Halak - who posted his best numbers in seven years, Anton Khodobin, Chad Johnson, Jonas Gustavsson, etc).

Rask won a Vezina, and had years where he finished 2nd, 5th and 7th. (I wouldn't give much weight to his additional 7th place finish from 2010, which was a result of literally one vote). So perhaps the argument is, the voters knew he was good, despite playing on such a strong team. But the "team effects" argument seems to be the main strike against Rask at this point.
 

AlfiesHair

Registered User
Jul 7, 2020
24
58
Always great to see a long, thoughtful post from a non-participant.

I'm sure Mike Farkas (and a few others) might have similar comments, but if you take Rask's numbers at face value, he's probably deserving for this round. The question is - how much are those numbers due to Rask himself, and how much of it is him playing in front of such a responsible, disciplined team?

During the span of Rask's career, Bruins goalies, aside from Rask himself, had a 91.9% save percentage, which is barely lower than Rask's 92.1%. And aside from 159 games of Tim Thomas, this wasn't exactly a great group of netminders (a past-his-prime Jaroslav Halak - who posted his best numbers in seven years, Anton Khodobin, Chad Johnson, Jonas Gustavsson, etc).

Rask won a Vezina, and had years where he finished 2nd, 5th and 7th. (I wouldn't give much weight to his additional 7th place finish from 2010, which was a result of literally one vote). So perhaps the argument is, the voters knew he was good, despite playing on such a strong team. But the "team effects" argument seems to be the main strike against Rask at this point.
Why thank you!

I gotta agree with you a little. Rask's 12th place GSAx finish winning him the Vezina Trophy is maybe the best quantitative way to show this. It's the lowest a Vezina winner has ever done according to MoneyPuck's model. Normally they're at least in the top 3.

So for full transparency's sake, not to advocate for any one goalie, it is clear even statistically that Rask benefited from a strong defence. If we take GSAx as the evolution of GSAA so as to account for shot quality a little, here is what we find.

GSAA finishes ranked - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 19th, 21st, 24th, 25th, 29th, 41st

GSAx finishes ranked - 2nd, 2nd, 8th, 12th, 13th, 16th, 16th, 18th, 25th, 27th, 42nd, 59th

It seems to be clear that he certainly benefited from some easier shots than the average goalie over his career. Makes sense with two of the best defensive defensemen and forwards of all time with him his whole career.

EDIT: In 2010, sure he only got one Vezina vote to make him 7th, but he got 12 in postseason all star voting. Still only around 2% as the top three separated themselves pretty cleanly from the pack but stats also show he was around the top five best goalies that year.
 
Last edited:

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,978
515
Seat of the Empire
No joke.

In the quote I've highlighted the Stanley Cup Finals teams in blue and the other guys in red.

Before the loss to the 86 Habs, in the round immediately after defeating Liut, the combined record of every team that beat him is a very breezy 1-20 (his Blues career).

The 86 Habs and 91 Pens are the only teams that went on to win another playoff round in Liut's list.
More joking I see. I don't know why you obsess over the Blues part of his career, when it's less than half of it, but whatever. You don't see how that's 100% a function of being on a bad team as opposed to being on a powerhouse like Moog was for 75% or his career? If your team is Oilers/Bruins, you should make the conference finals and thus automatically lose to a cup finalist. If you're Blues/Whalers, a 1st round loss is expected.

Btw:
1980 Chicago got swept by .688 Buffalo, hardly surprising
1981 Rangers swept by the Isles... LOL
1982 Chicago goes 1-4 vs. Canucks, that's bad
1983 Chicago wins 4-1 vs. Minny... So your 1-20 stat is a lie. Loses later to Oilers, what a shocker.
1984 Minny loses to Oilers... What a surprise again.
 

AlfiesHair

Registered User
Jul 7, 2020
24
58
On the note of GSAx - especially considering the amount of modern goalies, here are those with the best records since the stat has been recorded. I know there are a handful of solid models and there are still contextual issues with the stat but it is maybe the best singular goalie stat we can get. At least something to look at in my opinion.

Top 10 GSAx Finishes (MoneyPuck)
(2009-2024, those with three or more top 10 finishes)
  1. Hellebuyck - 6 (3, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0)
  2. Lundqvist - 6 (1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0, 1, 1)
  3. Quick - 5 (0, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1)
  4. Bobrovsky - 5 (0, 1, 0, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1)
  5. Bishop - 5 (0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1)
  6. Halak - 5 (0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 0, 0)
  7. Vasilevskiy - 4 (1, 2, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
  8. Holtby - 4 (1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0)
  9. Price - 4 (1, 0, 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
  10. Ward - 4 (0, 2, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
  11. Luongo - 4 (0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0)
  12. Schneider - 4 (0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0)
  13. Crawford - 4 (0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2)
  14. M. Smith - 3 (1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0)
  15. Saros - 3 (1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
  16. Rask - 3 (0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0)
  17. Dubnyk - 3 (0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1)
  18. Fleury - 3 (0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0)
  19. Gibson - 3 (0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0)
  20. Hiller - 3 (0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0)
  21. Mason - 3 (0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0)
  22. Swayman - 3 (0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1)
  23. Rinne - 3 (0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0)
  24. Howard - 3 (0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1)
Despite Quick not having an impressive GSAA record (just a 3rd and an 8th place) and playing on a defensive LA Kings team, he has a VERY strong GSAx record. Very surprised by this.

Bobrovsky's insane Vezina seasons don't even get first place by this metric, but he still has a great record overall (more or less aligns with his GSAA record). Still doesn't cover his season to season inconsistencies though.

Rask I've mentioned already.

Fleury is about what I'd expect, not too strong. Very rarely a top 10 goalie on any year but a couple quality seasons. Will always wish his prime had more to chew on besides his Stanley Cup count. Very similar to his GSAA record.

Rinne's record looks... really not great. Thought his highs would be higher, he may have had the best D-core of the 2010s in front of him, but I thought his stats would hold even when adjusting for an easier shot quality. His GSAA have him with a 1st and 2nd place finish, with GSAx he gets only two 5ths.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Pale King

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,341
1,179
More joking I see. I don't know why you obsess over the Blues part of his career, when it's less than half of it, but whatever. You don't see how that's 100% a function of being on a bad team as opposed to being on a powerhouse like Moog was for 75% or his career? If your team is Oilers/Bruins, you should make the conference finals and thus automatically lose to a cup finalist. If you're Blues/Whalers, a 1st round loss is expected.

Btw:
1980 Chicago got swept by .688 Buffalo, hardly surprising
1981 Rangers swept by the Isles... LOL
1982 Chicago goes 1-4 vs. Canucks, that's bad
1983 Chicago wins 4-1 vs. Minny... So your 1-20 stat is a lie. Loses later to Oilers, what a shocker.
1984 Minny loses to Oilers... What a surprise again.
My mistake. I counted the wrong series in 1983. So they're 5-17? The point stands.

It's not just that the team loses. It's that Liut is middling against middling teams. Liut didn't play the Islanders or Oilers. Moog did. Liut played middling teams. Moog played the contenders and the Cinderellas.

The 81 Blues were good (.669). Against the 81 Rangers the Blues scored goals decently, (22 GF in 6 games,) but Liut gave up 29 goals. The 81 Isles existed. The Isles beat Moog's Oilers and Steve Baker's Rangers (I think Baker was 1-10 over the rest of his NHL career). But it was 30-win team with a losing record that lit up Liut like a Christmas tree.

Know how Quick (and Joseph, and Lundqvist before,) can get credit for doing well with no goal support? Liut was the opposite of that.



First one was a good setup, but Liut is just leaky for the most part. (See goal #2 at 5:50). Around 14 minutes there's a weak breakaway shot but a juicy rebound. At 24:30 Beck just beats him clean off the faceoff.

After the 4-0 goal, the Blues rally to make it 4-3. And then some guy scores on Liut around 35:45 (and the pop up video says he never scored another goal ever again.) He actually beats Liut twice, the first shot hits the post before sending a second effort into a yawning cage. In the 3rd (43 mins) there's a weird bounce that catches Liut when he's positioned awkwardly himself. Around 56:00, Nilsson claps one past Liut.

And a guy on a team with over a .200-point points percentage lead lets his team down against a losing team, as he saves 13 of 20 in an elimination game. And the Oilers and Islanders have nothing to do with it.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad