HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 7

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
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As the parent of three small kids, “sleep like a baby” is total bullshit.
As a parent of 3 and (not even) 1 year olds, I can agree only partially. They actually slept well as babies (from 2nd month onwards), but it got infinitely worse around the time the older one could get out of bed. At age 3+ she even needs melatonin to go to bed at child-appropriate time instead of staying up til 11-12...

However I don't know if "eating like a baby" is a thing, but that's where the real nightmares lie...😵‍💫


On topic, this round truly makes me happy I decided not to participate this time around. I feel like majority of these names are too early, some by far. I'd have an apoplexy trying to sort that mess out. The only ones I always truly liked were Beezer & Kipper.
 

CuuuJooo

Registered User
May 28, 2021
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Maybe it's because they went into the HOF together (still trying to process that), but to me, Barrasso and Vernon occupy a similar tier (ie, IT'S TOO SOON).

I would love to hear angry arguments from those more knowledgeable than me.

*sits back, cracks beer*
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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Ottawa, ON
Does anyone have any thoughts on Kiprusoff's large home/road split in his stats? I believe it's the largest among goalies in the last 25 years or more.

Career Home: 197-89-37, 2.23 GAA, 0.919 SV%
Career Road: 122-124-34, 2.79 GAA, 0.906 SV%

And his backups, who rarely played, played a substantial portion of Calgary's second half of back to backs on the road. So he was getting an easier selection of road games, if anything.

Does anyone who followed the Flames remember if Kiprusoff was known to be better at home? Or was it the whole team?

Subsequent Calgary goalies haven't had the same pattern to their home/road splits.
 

Professor What

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Sep 16, 2020
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Maybe it's because they went into the HOF together (still trying to process that), but to me, Barrasso and Vernon occupy a similar tier (ie, IT'S TOO SOON).

I would love to hear angry arguments from those more knowledgeable than me.

*sits back, cracks beer*
Well, I could buy Barrasso here. Glad Vernon isn't up.

I saw Barrasso as a borderline case for the Hall. Vernon was a no, just no.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,328
1,157
My impressions of who could steal me a playoff game:

Group 1
Known Thieves of Playoff Games
  • Alec Connell
  • Curtis Joseph
  • John Vanbiesbrouck
Group 2
Capable Thieves who Were a Little More Likely than Group 1 Guys to Give Something Back
  • Tom Barrasso
  • Sergei Bobrovsky
  • Marc-Andre Fleury
  • Miikka Kiprusoff
  • Hap Holmes
  • Jonathan Quick
  • Rogie Vachon
Group 3
Not Thieves, or at least not Huge Net Thieves
  • Percy LeSueur
  • Chuck Rayner
  • Gump Worsley
Group 4
Would Give You The Jersey Off His Back
  • Ed Giacomin

This is not the sum total of accomplishments, or entirely indicative of my votes (Quick should be high for me, and above Connell). I thought it was a fun way to have a discussion without saying "here's my ballot."

If anyone is particularly outraged about anyone in particular, please ask me to explain myself.
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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Maybe it's because they went into the HOF together (still trying to process that), but to me, Barrasso and Vernon occupy a similar tier (ie, IT'S TOO SOON).

I would love to hear angry arguments from those more knowledgeable than me.

*sits back, cracks beer*
Vezina Finalists:
Vernon 2
Barrasso 1-2-2-2-3

Vezina finishes aren't all there is obviously as it is just one piece of information, but in this case, I think it shows the difference between the two.

My Best-Carey
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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Playoff records:
  • Tom Barrasso 61-54
  • Sergei Bobrovsky 45-43
  • Alec Connell 8-5
  • Marc-Andre Fleury 92-74
  • Ed Giacomin 29-35
  • Hap Holmes N/A
  • Curtis Joseph 63-66
  • Miikka Kiprusoff 25-28
  • Percy LeSueur N/A
  • Chuck Rayner 9-9
  • Jonathan Quick 49-43
  • Rogie Vachon 23-23
  • John Vanbiesbrouck 28-38
  • Gump Worsley 40-26

Disclaimer: This is just one objective set of data. It is not the only measure of a goaltender's quality. Please use this with other information provided to help make your selections.

My Best-Carey
 

CuuuJooo

Registered User
May 28, 2021
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327
I do think Barrasso had more of a case than Vernon (although I'm still not convinced that the former should be in). Does the blame ultimately lie with Lanny McDonald's moustache?
 

Michael Farkas

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Nah. Vernon is at least two if not three tiers below either. Vernon's run of playoff incompetence on the 90s Flames is utterly unbelievable and historically unparalleled.
Give me more here...? (If you please). I really don't see as big of a gap as other folks. Three tiers below puts him down in like...what...Ron Hextall territory? Jon Casey?
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
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1,157
I agree. And Fuhr is on that tier too. Guys that knew how to play, but had serious flaws. High highs, low lows. Structurally proficient, but a bit unpolished.

Beer me!
I agree more with the you from the last project...

Was Billy Smith ever in a prolonged situation where he couldn't look "always good"? Honest question. He never really faced any different circumstances like Fuhr did. Eras and teams change with Fuhr, plus international competition...Smith was a tandem goalie and that goalie always had the best years of his career in the tandem...often statistically outdueling him...too often for me to consider him here.

Smith is going to have a real hard time getting too much credit from me personally. I think Fuhr was comfortably better than him...
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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Heh, yeah a lot changes in 12 years of learning more about the game and watching a ton more games. The shift in going by feels of stat-awards vs. doing the work changes a lot. Confirms some other things.
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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My impressions of who could steal me a playoff game:

Group 1
Known Thieves of Playoff Games
  • Alec Connell
  • Curtis Joseph
  • John Vanbiesbrouck
Group 2
Capable Thieves who Were a Little More Likely than Group 1 Guys to Give Something Back
  • Tom Barrasso
  • Sergei Bobrovsky
  • Marc-Andre Fleury
  • Miikka Kiprusoff
  • Hap Holmes
  • Jonathan Quick
  • Rogie Vachon
Group 3
Not Thieves, or at least not Huge Net Thieves
  • Percy LeSueur
  • Chuck Rayner
  • Gump Worsley
Group 4
Would Give You The Jersey Off His Back
  • Ed Giacomin

This is not the sum total of accomplishments, or entirely indicative of my votes (Quick should be high for me, and above Connell). I thought it was a fun way to have a discussion without saying "here's my ballot."

If anyone is particularly outraged about anyone in particular, please ask me to explain myself.
So just to be clear (for thick-headed me) this is just about playoffs, right? Because I think that prime Giacomin wasn't giving much of anything in the regular season.
 

nabby12

Registered User
Nov 11, 2008
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1732825688683.png


I was very happy to see Alex Connell and Sergei Bobrovsky come up this round. They'll likely be in my top-3 here along with Quick.

Alex Connell was a very phenomenal goalie of his day that still doesn't get the praise he likely deserves for being so clutch throughout his career in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

Connell is a Hockey Hall of Famer that won two Stanley Cups. One with Ottawa in 1927 and the other in 1935 as a member of the Montreal Maroons.

Connell first joined the Ottawa Senators for the 1924–25 season after the Senators dealt star goaltender Clint Benedict to the expansion Maroons as Benedict was having some off-ice issues with the team. Connell steadied the ship in Ottawa during a rough time and led them to the Stanley Cup a few years later in 1927.

In the 1927–28 season he set the NHL record—unbroken as of now—for the longest shutout streak at 461:29, by recording seven consecutive shutouts and another 41 minutes in the eighth game, from January 31 to February 22, 1928.

What's craziest though is how Connell returned out of semi-retirement to play for the Montreal Maroons in 1934-35, at the behest of new Maroons' coach Tommy Gorman, who had won the Cup with Chicago the previous season. Then 33 years old, Alec rebounded to his old form, leading the NHL in shutouts for the fourth time and finishing second behind Chicago's Lorne Chabot for the Vezina Trophy as leading goaltender.

Connell went undefeated in the 1935 playoffs for the Maroons to lead them to the Stanley Cup, allowing only four goals in the Cup finals. It was simply incredible. Gorman called his play the "greatest goalkeeping performance in the history of hockey," which I'll admit is a bit hyperbolic considering what Gorman's own Charlie Gardiner did the previous year for the Chicago Black Hawks in the 1934 playoffs.

Some other facts about Alex's legacy:
At the time of his retirement, Connell was second in NHL career shutouts, and nearly ninety years later, is still in sixth place, with 81. He is the only goaltender in league history to record 15 or more shutouts in two separate seasons. Connell's 1.91 career goals against average (GAA) is the lowest for any goaltender in the history of the National Hockey League, a record he has held for over ninety years. He is also the career leader for playoff goals-against average for goalies playing over twenty games.

Connell was also one of the first goaltenders to transition in 1927 from the cricket-style pads of the early days of hockey to the wider modern-style leather-and-kapok pads, pioneered by Hamilton harnessmaker Pop Kenesky. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1958, but died before his formal induction after a lengthy illness on May 10, 1958.

Upon his death, former teammate King Clancy said, "To me, Alec was a grand competitor, a great fellow and a great friend -- one of the outstanding goalies of his time." The Society for International Hockey Research, in compiling a "retroactive" Conn Smythe Trophy (most valuable player in the playoffs) list, deemed that Connell would have won in 1927 had the trophy been awarded back then. Charles Coleman, in Trail of the Stanley Cup, believed that Connell would have won the Vezina Trophy in 1926 too, in like fashion.
 

MadArcand

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Give me more here...? (If you please). I really don't see as big of a gap as other folks. Three tiers below puts him down in like...what...Ron Hextall territory? Jon Casey?
Hextall over Vernon is very easy for me. Casey, maybe same tier. Or Bob Essensa, really. We're talking clearly below Kelly Hrudey and far below Daren Puppa.

What Vernon did to one of the best teams of the early 90s was abominable.

89-90, 2nd overall (2 points behind Bruins). Faces .469 Kings, loses in 1st round. Scoring almost 4 gpg... but Vernon goes .872 and loses to a mediocre.883 Hrudey.

90-91, 4th overall, 100-point team. Faces .500 Oilers, loses in 1st round. Offense just below 3 gpg is respectable, but Vernon gets outplayed by Fuhr, losing game 7 in ot.

91-92 they somehow miss the playoffs, 5th best offense sunk by 19th out of 22 defense, led by his majesty of 3.58 GAA, -9.8 gsaa and .883 sv%.

92-93 back to 97 points. Faces .524 Kings, scores 4.66 gpg, eats Vernon's .815 to lose in 1st round. Fleury alone scores 2 ppg and they still lose because Vernon's play is equally abysmal as that of Jeff Reese.

93-94, 97 points again. Faces .506 Canucks, scores decent almost 3 gpg. Vernon to the rescue with .895, outplayed by Kirk McLean on the way to game 7 ot loss.

Hell he pulls .889 including stellar .854 in the finals next year with the Wings. And .864 as backup the year after. Then he pulls a Conn Smythe out of his ass.
 

The Pale King

Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
Sep 24, 2011
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My impressions of who could steal me a playoff game:

Group 1
Known Thieves of Playoff Games
  • Alec Connell
  • Curtis Joseph
  • John Vanbiesbrouck
Group 2
Capable Thieves who Were a Little More Likely than Group 1 Guys to Give Something Back
  • Tom Barrasso
  • Sergei Bobrovsky
  • Marc-Andre Fleury
  • Miikka Kiprusoff
  • Hap Holmes
  • Jonathan Quick
  • Rogie Vachon
Group 3
Not Thieves, or at least not Huge Net Thieves
  • Percy LeSueur
  • Chuck Rayner
  • Gump Worsley
Group 4
Would Give You The Jersey Off His Back
  • Ed Giacomin

This is not the sum total of accomplishments, or entirely indicative of my votes (Quick should be high for me, and above Connell). I thought it was a fun way to have a discussion without saying "here's my ballot."

If anyone is particularly outraged about anyone in particular, please ask me to explain myself.
Having Barasso, Fleury, and Quick in the same category for playoff goalies feels wrong to me. And having Joseph above Quick also seems strange. I won't spend too much time on Barasso and Fleury, their playoff failures have been discussed a fair bit already; Quick is clearly at least one tier ahead of them for me in terms of playoffs only.

In terms of Joseph vs. Quick: if you are a GM, do you want the goalie who gives your underdog team a shocking first round sweep then turns into a bit of a pumpkin the next round 2 years in a row, or do you want those upset rounds stacked in the same season, giving you a chance at a Cup? It's pretty clear to me which I'd prefer.

The 2012 Kings beat the number 1, 2, and 3 seeds in the West on the way to a somewhat anti-climatic Cup Final against the Devils. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the Kings never trailed in a series, and I feel like they spent very little time trailing in games on the score board, period. Quick didn't let many teams score first, and there was an inevitability to that whole run that I haven't really seen anywhere else.

Joseph should get credit for the pair of first round upsets in 96-97 and 97-98 against the Stars and Avalanche respectively. But which teams did he lose to in the second round those years? The Avalanche and the Stars, 4-1 in each case. Obviously great teams, but those years form almost the entirety of his case as a money goalie, don't they?

Joseph is fine with the Leafs, but would they have been better off keeping Potvin? Look what Potvin did with those early 00s Kings teams in the playoffs. Knocking off the loaded 01 Wings and then losing a very close series to the Avalanche, including an all-time goaltending duel with Patrick Roy has a whiff of late 90s Cujo to it, doesn't it?

I don't knock him too much for getting outdueled by Arturs Irbe either. He made my list (or at least I think he did).
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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So just to be clear (for thick-headed me) this is just about playoffs, right? Because I think that prime Giacomin wasn't giving much of anything in the regular season.
How so? His individual numbers were good, but not great, and I've seen a compelling case before that he was just a default first all-star team goalie by having more games played in a league where platoons were becoming en Vogue.
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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Having Barasso, Fleury, and Quick in the same category for playoff goalies feels wrong to me. And having Joseph above Quick also seems strange. I won't spend too much time on Barasso and Fleury, their playoff failures have been discussed a fair bit already; Quick is clearly at least one tier ahead of them for me in terms of playoffs only.
Playoff rounds/Stanley Cups won:
Quick won 9 playoff rounds and 2 Cups (49-43 W-L)
Barrasso won 11 playoff rounds and 2 Cups (61-54 W-L)
Fleury won 16 playoff rounds and 1.5 Cups (92-74 W-L)

I don't see the argument of Quick over Barrasso/Fleury in the playoffs. I have Quick pretty high because he ranks WITH Barrasso/Fleury in the playoffs. But he's not a tier ahead. All three are over Joseph, I agree. Joseph not even making a Finals is a black spot that I can't overlook.

My Best-Carey
 

The Pale King

Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
Sep 24, 2011
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I don't like looking at playoff careers from such a "zoomed out" perspective. What does that tell us? What if a guy wins in the first round every year and gets blown out after that? He'd have ~80 wins, depending on the era. Barrasso and Fleury cost their team in big places, arguably multiple Cups between the two of them. 93, 96, pick your year for Fleury... Quick very rarely did that.

I acknowledge both Fleury and Barrasso had some nice years too but it was never a sure thing with them.

Completely different mentality coming off a loss for those goalies. Fleury is very shakey, you never know if he's going to bounce back. Quick was harder on himself than just about anyone, and he came out DIALED after losses.

I'm trying to find the clip from the 2014 reverse sweep of the Sharks, where after a 7-2 loss in game 2, Quick is waiting at the endboards rink-exit to high-five every one of his players as they head back into the dressing room. It's a pretty incredible moment with hindsight especially. He's kind of saying "guys that one was on me, but we're still in this." It's worlds removed from what a Barasso or Fleury (or Roy for that matter) would do in that situation.

Quick has got a Bernie Parent feel to his career. I see a lot of parallels between the 70s Flyers and 2010s Kings. Parent has already gone, it's definitely time for Quick here.
 
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The Pale King

Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
Sep 24, 2011
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All of my top-3 from last round are still available (Quick, Kiprusoff, and Vanbiesbrouck).

Of the new guys, Connell sounds impressive so far. I had Holmes as my fourth... so it's kind of a lot of noise at the bottom for me this round.

Bobrovsky is a weird one. His last two years have pulled the designation of "worst playoff goalie ever" away from him, but his team almost got reverse swept in the Finals. And that would have been the most Bobrovsky out-come of all. Him winning that game seven still feels cosmically wrong on some level. I mean, the guy has single-handedly scared GMs away from giving goalies those long, huge deals. In my eyes, that's his lasting legacy as much as the two Vezinas.

Does anyone think it's time for Worsely? He's been on the shelf here for what, four rounds now?
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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It's not time for Connell. The level of recognition he received is just so far below the guys we just added to the list, like Thompson and Hainsworth. There needs to be more separation there. He's probably the logical next guy from this generation (does anyone disagree?) but should be waiting a couple of rounds at least.
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
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It's not time for Connell. The level of recognition he received is just so far below the guys we just added to the list, like Thompson and Hainsworth. There needs to be more separation there. He's probably the logical next guy from this generation (does anyone disagree?) but should be waiting a couple of rounds at least.
100% agree.

In terms of separation to peers, Holmes starting to look like he should absolutely go this round.

We're at the point of the project where there's nobody left I love. Everyone has something iffy about their career. It's the nature of the weakest position.
 
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blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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So just to be clear (for thick-headed me) this is just about playoffs, right? Because I think that prime Giacomin wasn't giving much of anything in the regular season.
Yes. Not HUGE on his RS stuff, but it is better.
Having Barasso, Fleury, and Quick in the same category for playoff goalies feels wrong to me. And having Joseph above Quick also seems strange. I won't spend too much time on Barasso and Fleury, their playoff failures have been discussed a fair bit already; Quick is clearly at least one tier ahead of them for me in terms of playoffs only.

In terms of Joseph vs. Quick: if you are a GM, do you want the goalie who gives your underdog team a shocking first round sweep then turns into a bit of a pumpkin the next round 2 years in a row, or do you want those upset rounds stacked in the same season, giving you a chance at a Cup? It's pretty clear to me which I'd prefer.

The 2012 Kings beat the number 1, 2, and 3 seeds in the West on the way to a somewhat anti-climatic Cup Final against the Devils. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the Kings never trailed in a series, and I feel like they spent very little time trailing in games on the score board, period. Quick didn't let many teams score first, and there was an inevitability to that whole run that I haven't really seen anywhere else.

Joseph should get credit for the pair of first round upsets in 96-97 and 97-98 against the Stars and Avalanche respectively. But which teams did he lose to in the second round those years? The Avalanche and the Stars, 4-1 in each case. Obviously great teams, but those years form almost the entirety of his case as a money goalie, don't they?

Joseph is fine with the Leafs, but would they have been better off keeping Potvin? Look what Potvin did with those early 00s Kings teams in the playoffs. Knocking off the loaded 01 Wings and then losing a very close series to the Avalanche, including an all-time goaltending duel with Patrick Roy has a whiff of late 90s Cujo to it, doesn't it?

I don't knock him too much for getting outdueled by Arturs Irbe either. He made my list (or at least I think he did).
Quick only hit tier 2 in that specific category because the Kings gave him tons of support when they won. The Devils were dangerous in the regular season, but they couldn't get close to Quick the first few games.

The GM question is partly down to what your team can do. Know which other Kings goalie had a CuJo like series? Quick against Vegas was about as good as you get out of him, but like Joseph on the Wings, his scorers didn't want to play. So they rack up 4 Ls and go home.

I believe Joseph might be capable of winning game 6 after the Devils are on the PK for the entire first period, and don't think Quick, or anybody else, is winning a game 6 against Brodeur if his team only mounts 6 shots on goal.

CuJo was pumpkin-ish against the 97 Avs, but he only had one soft game against Dallas in 98, posting a .943 save percentage over the rest of the series.

CuJo had some other good runs. I believe his reputation was solid after 1993, and he really only had one bad series in Toronto. Detroit also choked in front of good goaltending.

Even in Calgary, Joseph managed to steal a game Kiprusoff was going to give away.

What if a guy wins in the first round every year and gets blown out after that? He'd have ~80 wins, depending on the era.
Hey man, I didn't vote for Tony Esposito.

All of my top-3 from last round are still available (Quick, Kiprusoff, and Vanbiesbrouck).

Your top 3 will do well on my ballot, but if you think Joseph was a pumpkin, you might have similar thoughts on Kiprusoff, no?

Does anyone think it's time for Worsely? He's been on the shelf here for what, four rounds now?

If other available guys were in his spot they might have stolen a few games with the Rangers and/or also stood behind the Cup Champs.

Vachon in particular has saving the 69 Habs against Boston as a feather in his cap after Gump got them in trouble.

Gump is probably in the bottom third to me
 

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