HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 7

[Dr John Carlson]

Procedure

• In this vote, you will be presented with 14 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means four names out of these fourteen will be left unranked on your ballot.
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top 5 players will be added to the final list (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 (or 3&4!), or the break between 5&6 is minimal)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues
• Voting threads will continue until we have added 60 names to the list, for a total of 12 voting threads

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 goaltenders (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the final ranking
• These voters are: @nabby12, @overpass, @frisco, @Professor What, @DN28, @jigglysquishy, @tony d, @rmartin65, @Vilica, @bobholly39, @The Pale King, @blogofmike, @Dr John Carlson, @MXD, @Michael Farkas, @ContrarianGoaltender, @VanIslander, @seventieslord, @Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Please refrain from excessive use of the 'laughing' reaction to indicate disagreement
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project
• Anybody may participate in the discussion, whether they submitted a list or not

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that wins are a team stat

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 29th at midnight and continue through Sunday, December 1st at 11:59 PM Eastern time. I will release the results of the vote the morning of Monday, December 2nd, at which point the next voting thread will begin.


Vote 7 Candidates

• Tom Barrasso
• Sergei Bobrovsky
• Alec Connell
• Marc-Andre Fleury
• Ed Giacomin
• Hap Holmes
• Curtis Joseph
• Miikka Kiprusoff
• Percy LeSueur
• Chuck Rayner
• Jonathan Quick
• Rogie Vachon
• John Vanbiesbrouck
• Gump Worsley

Click to read more...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Where there's a Giacomin there should be a Cheevers.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Vezina Shares

Stolen from @TheDevilMadeMe 's methodology and updated to 2024

There are 22 goalies with a 1.0 share or higher

	Goalie	Times	Share
1	Martin Brodeur	15	5.40
2	Dominik Hasek	11	4.76
3	Patrick Roy	17	4.63
4	Connor Hellebucyk	5	2.63
5	Ed Belfour	11	2.51
6	Pekka Rinne	5	2.12
7	Andrei Vasilevsky	6	2.05
8	Tom Barrasso	7	1.98
9	Sergei Bobrovsky	6	1.97
10	Henrik Lundqvist	10	1.93
11	Grant Fuhr	8	1.84
12	Braden Holtby	3	1.68
13	Roberto Luongo	9	1.66
14	Tim Thomas	3	1.55
15	John Vanbiesbrouck	9	1.52
16	Tuukka Rask	5	1.50
17	Miikka Kiprusoff	7	1.44
18	Carey Price	7	1.40
19	Evgeni Nabokov	6	1.23
20	Curtis Joseph	8	1.02
21	Pete Peeters	3	1.02
22	Igor Shesterkin	3	1.02

Bolded are eligible. Italicized are inducted

Fleury is at 0.86, Quick at 0.75.

Times top 3
Barrasso - 5 (1,2,2,2,3)
Bobrovsky - 3 (1,1,3)
Kiprusoff - 3 (1,2,3)
Joseph - 3 (2,3,3)
Vanbiesbrouck - 2 (1,2)
Quick - 2 (2,3)
Fleury 1 - (1)

All-Star Teams (1945 onwards)

Player	First	Second	Third	Total	Weighted Total
Ed Giacomin	1​	3​	0​	4​	14​
Tom Barrasso	1​	2​	1​	4​	12​
Sergei Bobrovsky	2​	0​	1​	3​	11​
Harry Lumley	2​	0​	0​	2​	10​
Chuck Rayner	0​	3​	0​	3​	9​
Gump Worsley	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
John Vanbiesbrouck	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Rogatien Vachon	0​	2​	0​	2​	6​
Miikka Kiprusoff	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Jonathan Quick	0​	1​	1​	2​	4​
Marc-Andre Fleury	0​	1​	0​	1​	3​
Curtis Joseph	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​

You can see a bit of a divide between AS teams and Vezina voting. Joseph and Kiprusoff combined for 6 Vezina top-3 finishes, but combined for only top-3 AS finish.

 

[Professor What]

First thought: not ready for any of the new guys top four. Also still not ready for Quick, but he probably goes in before I'm ready for him anyway.

 

[MXD]

Wow, two of these new guys were in my ... sixties?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sergei Bobrovsky - I mean, if the playoffs aren't a huge, huge deal to you, then pair him as close as you can to Esposito. He's a weird one. He's not as technically poor as Espo, but he's a goalie who really wears his mental weakness as a scarlet letter. High highs, very low lows.

Alec Connell - I threw him on as the very last name on my list because he's the all time leader in GAA or whatever. He's more trivia question than substance from everything I've read. He was the player that I did a deep dive on in the 2012 project, and came up surprisingly empty-handed in terms of praise. I can't imagine what he's doing here right now.

Marc-Andre Fleury - Certainly a better bet than Barrasso. Fleury had his high highs and low lows period. Late career, he settled in to being a more reliable, less reflexive goalie and he wore that well. He didn't play for defensive teams very much during his long career...but as a player that developed under the old rules (where he played for basically an expansion team to start, with no full-time goalie coach at 18 years old), then made an impact in the new world, was dealt some tough hands during DPE 2.0 (and then vengefully dealt those bad hands back to his own team at times), and then in the new and improved new-nuNHL he became a regular in the Vezina conversation...he's an interesting one. Definitely someone I'd have over Barrasso and Bobrovsky for that matter. But he'll be a tough one to place in general...happy to see him available though.

Eddie Giacomin - I had a hunch that the film was going to be kind to him and that I'd pump his tires as a result...wrong. He's basically Esposito and Vachon. He tried to two pad stack and slide basically every shot, so it's fun to watch...but like we saw with Espo, the guys that throw themselves all over the floor generally don't win, and they generally don't have later career success. Well, here ya go again...I had Giacomin and Esposito back to back on my prelim list...deep in the 60's.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The HHOF officially recognizes 9 dynasties.

50s Habs - Plante (3rd)
50s Red Wings - Sawchuk (4th) and Lumley (29th)
70s Habs - Dryden (8th)
60s Leafs - Bower (16th) and Sawchuk (4th)
20s Sens - Benedict (18th)
40s Leafs - Broda (20th)
80s Islanders - Smith (27th)
80s Oilers - Fuhr (31st)

The only one left is the 60s Habs (Vachon and Worsley).

After the top 4 (where the teams are incredibly stacked AND have 10/10 goaltending), it's pretty much a list of how much a team needed their goalies to be elite to win. Smith was only needed to be great on the last two, Fuhr really only needed to be great in 1987.

For the 60s Habs, they're the only dynasty where goaltending is a noted weakness.

Just an interesting look at it.

 

[MXD]

The HHOF officially recognizes 9 dynasties.

50s Habs - Plante (3rd)
50s Red Wings - Sawchuk (4th) and Lumley (29th)
70s Habs - Dryden (8th)
60s Leafs - Bower (16th) and Sawchuk (4th)
20s Sens - Benedict (18th)
40s Leafs - Broda (20th)
80s Islanders - Smith (27th)
80s Oilers - Fuhr (31st)

The only one left is the 60s Habs (Vachon and Worsley).

After the top 4 (where the teams are incredibly stacked AND have 10/10 goaltending), it's pretty much a list of how much a team needed their goalies to be elite to win. Smith was only needed to be great on the last two, Fuhr really only needed to be great in 1987.

For the 60s Habs, they're the only dynasty where goaltending is a noted weakness.

Just an interesting look at it.

Not the first year.

I'm giving up.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Alec Connell in the Playoffs

1926 Playoffs
Senators and Maroons tie 1-1 in a two-game total goal series

The Morning Leader · ‎Mar 26, 1926

Long Shot Beats Connell

The face-off had hardly occurred when Broadbent lifted one from the blue line. Connell saw the puck too late...

Connell was having plenty to do as the puck whistled around his head and chest.

Montreal was doing most of the attacking, but the Ottawa defence was impregnable.

Maroons win 1-0 to win series 2-1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 29, 1926

Connel made a miraculous save when the Montreal star [Nels Stewart] and the league's most useful player seemed to have a goal tagged.

Broadbent, who has never been seen to better advantage, twice broke through on Connell, only to have smart goaling and dash of ill-luck rub him of the honor of putting the Maroons in a safe lead.

1927 Playoffs
Ottawa beats the Canadiens 4-0 in a two-game total goal series

No relevant comments, but it's interesting that the game is categorized as Nighbor's pokecheck against Morenz' speed.


Sens and Habs tie 1-1. Sens win series 5-1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 5, 1927

Joliat returned and stole the puck from Clancy near the Ottawa goal. Connell saved a dangerous situation for Ottawa with a brilliant stop.

Nighbor's poke-check wrecked half a done Canadien thrusts led by Mroenz and and Mantha. He turned them into attacks on the Canadien goal, but had little support from his wings.

Brilliant saves by Connell and hefty, if sometimes illegal, trippy by the Ottawa rearguard spoiled their chances.

1927 Finals
Senators and Bruins tie 0-0 in OT
Sens 0 Bruins 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 8, 1927

Oliver broke through the Senatorial defence. He shot too soon, however, and Connell was able to block the drive.

The Bruins were having the edge again and Connell had to jump to save two shots in quick succession from the sticks of Shore and Fredrickson.

Connell having to handle about five to every three shots stopped by Winkler.

Senators win 3-1
Sens 1 Bruins 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 11, 1927

The Senators seemed rather content with their two-goal advantage and a systematized defence backed by some brilliant net work by Connell managed to keep the Bruins from entering the summary.

Senators and Bruins tie 1-1 in OT
Sens 1 Bruins 0

No relevant comments


Senators win 3-1
Sens 2 Bruins 0

Ottawa Citizen · ‎Apr 14, 1927

Connell was down in his net to save off Galbraith in a dangerous rush with Frederickson.

Connell made a brilliant save off Oliver.

There is also a picture section where Connell is listed as "Brilliant Goalie"

Overall, a good playoff run. Nighbor getting immense praise despite being old. Boucher and Clancy get praise. Connell might get the next most praise though.


1928 Playoffs
Maroons beat Sens 1-0 in a two-game total goal series

No relevant comments

Maroons beat Sens 2-1 to win series 3-1

No relevant comments

Overall, he's not mentioned in the series except when he's scored on.


1930 Playoffs
Rangers and Sens tie 1-1 in a two-game total goal series

Ottawa Citizen · ‎Mar 21, 1930

Rangers pelted long pucks at Connell all night. They rarely worked in close enough for real scoring opportunities.

Rangers win 5-2 to win series 6-3

No relevant comments


1935 Playoffs
Maroons and Black Hawks tie 0-0 in a two-game total goal series

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 25, 1935

Connell Foils Morenz

The climax of this pulsating drama came with less than 10 minutes to go when Howie Morenz, taking Mush March's pass from the side, wung through the Maroon defence and had a clear road in on Connell. For a few agonizing moments for the vast throng, it seemed that Morenz could not miss the chance. Moving in deliberately, he tried to fake Connell into a false move. But the Fireman played the Hawk centre perfectly, he never budged until Howe was almost in the crease and then with one daring dive, he slashed the puck from Morenz's stick and spoiled the play. Connell lost his weapon as it went hurling into the corner of the rink.

Morenz Is Brilliant
Morenz was the Stratford flash of old, stealing like a meteor down the ice and reminiscent of his most brilliant form.

On Maroons' side, apart from Connell, Baldy Northcott and Lionel Conacher were standouts.

Maroons win 1-0 to win series 1-0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 27, 1935

Connell Shines In Nets
It would be hard to pick a star on the Maroon team, though Northcott grabbed the spotlight with his timely goal. Cy Wentworth and Connell were probably the most valuable men on the ice.

Maroons beat Rangers 2-1 in a two-game total goal series

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 29, 1935

For a good deal of the time, Alex Connell was merely a spectator to the struggle. Compared to the Chicago series, the Ottawa Fireman had a holiday tonight.

Maroons tie 3-3 to win series 5-4
Shots: Maroons 45 Rangers 29

The Border Cities Star · ‎Apr 1, 1935

Maroons have scored only six goals so far in four play-off games, but they have been so strong defensively that only four goals have gone past Alex Connell.

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 1, 1935

The Montreal defence gave Alex Connell great support.

Finals
Maroons beat Leafs 3-2 in OT in a best of three series
Shots: Maroons 39 Leafs 21

The Calgary Daily Herald · ‎Apr 5, 1935

Chums since boyhood days in Ottawa, Alex Connell of Maroons and King Clancy shook hands warmly at the finish. It was a good night for them both. Clancy scored a goal and Connell outpointed the Leafs.

Maroons beat Leafs 3-1. Wikipedia erroneously lists it as a 3-2 victory.
Shots: Maroons 19 Leafs 43

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 8, 1935

Connell Balks Leafs As His Mates Score Three Timely Goals

Goalie Brilliant in Halting Toronto Rushes

Connel Busy
Connell, veteran of 13 big-league seasons, blocked 21 shots in a wild and one-sided first period.

Maroons win 4-1 to win Cup
Shots: Maroons 29 Leafs 19

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 10, 1935

Toronto fought doggedly but could not solve the sturdy Maroon defence. When they did break through, Alex Connell was impregnable.

Alex Connell made a sensational falling stop as "Red" Metz drove the puck at him from point-blank range.

Overall, 1935 is his best playoff run and the 1935 Finals is his best single series. He's the most praised player on the Cup winning team and would have been the Conn Smythe winner.


For most of the Ottawa years, he doesn't get much praise. He's never bad, but he tops out at 3rd wheel (usually 4th wheel). But that 1935 run is tremendous and should factor in heavily whenever he gets inducted. He gets strong defense (much like in Ottawa), but unlike Ottawa he gets the bulk of the back end praise.

 

[Professor What]

I'm not saying there's nothing to Connell, but I don't see the case for him yet. I think he's largely a product of his team and times, and I get the feeling of him being a trivia question answer. I can't lie though, I like the shutouts. I know that the team plays a big role in that, but I still think there's something to be said for stopping every shot you face. And Connell did that a lot.

Bobrovsky would be better served if he were two guys, good Bob and bad Bob. Good Bob would fare really well on this list. He'd already be on, I'm quite sure. But if there's anything consistent about Bobrovsky, it's his inconsistency. You never really know what you're going to get. May be worth the risk if you're a GM because when he's on, he's on, but I just don't see it yet.

On the other hand, I've always felt that Fleury was more consistent than most, but I'm not super impressed with the level he offers. He's always been good enough, but he's also had some good spots to be in. Those Penguins teams were stacked, no two ways about it. He might have been the #3 guy on the team in 09, but that's his peak in Pittsburgh. And then he lost the job to Matt Murray of all people before landing in the best expansion situation in sports history in Vegas. I don't know. I don't think he's bad, but I'm not convinced he's that good either.

With Giacomin, there's a five year stretch at the beginning of his career that I really like, but after that, um, eww. Maybe he's something like Bobrovsky, except that his good years are bunched, as are his bad years. It's like he had a hot start and then fell off the cliff. I'm really not sure how to think about that.

I think we're in another round where we ideally induct four because of the way things have played out previously, and I don't personally see the case for any of these guys being top four.

 

[jigglysquishy]

In the 2003-2007 time period Kiprusoff was arguably the best goalie in the world. Luongo gets high nods for almost beating Brodeur, and obviously Brodeur's record was enough to get him in top 5 for us. But Kiprusoff should be held in the highest esteem in this time period.

Over that three season stretch , there was a clear top three in general public perception of goalies and Vezina voting.

1. Brodeur (1,1,2) - 259 Vezina votes
2. Kiprusoff (1,2,3) - 202 Vezina votes
3. Luongo (2,2) - 165 Vezina votes

You also have the World Cup in this time period, where Kiprusoff was lights out. Brodeur played great on a stacked Canada team, but Kiprusoff dragged a non-favourite Finland to within one goal of gold.

Toledo Blade · ‎Sep 11, 2004

Kiprusoff kept Finland in it with another sound performance.

The Vindicator · ‎Sep 14, 2004

He has seen all year long how much Kiprusoff is on top of his game. His fine play got the Flames into the playoffs after a seven-year absence and then lifted them to the Stanley Cup final.

He's a few weeks shy of his 28th birthday, but is already widely considered to be the best goalie to come out of his country.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette · ‎Sep 14, 2004

Kiprusoff has a proven ability to keep his club in games.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette · ‎Sep 15, 2004

Kiprusoff, widely regarded as one of the world finest goalies and the ket to Finland's hopes of winning.

He fell off, for sure, but if we are talking 3-year runs, there are very few guys left who can compete with Kipper.

 

[bobholly39]

Bobrosvky and Fleury both have multiple points in their careers where I thought to myself "ok....he's done. all downhill from here" - only for them to bounce back unexpectedly.

Low lows for sure - but also high highs, and for Fleury in particular fantastic longevity.

For the longest time I was ready to write Bobrsovky off as a very poor playoff goalie. But then he had two very solid runs at ages 34 & 35, winning a cup and almost a smythe. I think this has a big positive impact on his overall legacy.

Fleury - how many people thought he had anything left after leaving Pittsburgh? A hell of a turnaround with Vegas - both in year 1, and later on with a Vezina. And even now at age 40 he's still going strong, up to 565 career wins #2 all-time.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Almost a Smythe? He had a very weak 4th place finish, buoyed by a known knucklehead giving him his only top-2 place vote on the ballot. He wasn't even the best goalie in that playoffs.

It is interesting that Bobrovsky suddenly gets this enlightenment period as soon as he gets on one of the best defensive teams in the league. Funny how that works...

He's still a very poor playoff goalie. Even if he had a couple of nice, but not tremendous run at the end here...

 

[MadArcand]

Bob's 2023 run really pissed me off. Goes superhuman .966 (168/174) vs. the Canes. Then .844 (114/135) Vs. Bloody Vegas...

Both him and Fleury are basically better Vernons, ridiculous lows but also good highs.

 

[bobholly39]

Almost a Smythe? He had a very weak 4th place finish, buoyed by a known knucklehead giving him his only top-2 place vote on the ballot. He wasn't even the best goalie in that playoffs.

It is interesting that Bobrovsky suddenly gets this enlightenment period as soon as he gets on one of the best defensive teams in the league. Funny how that works...

He's still a very poor playoff goalie. Even if he had a couple of nice, but not tremendous run at the end here...

I think going into the finals in 2024 - Bobrosvky probably had a 50/50 shot at being Florida's Smythe candidate (ie ignoring McDavid, who seemed likely to win even if Oilers lost).

And I actually liked Bobrosvky's final performance a lot more than Barkov's. Bobrosvky is the reason Panthers beat the Oilers. He may also be a big reason why it went 7 games instead of ending in 4 or 5, but I'll take a goalie stealing 2 crazy important games (game 1 and 7) over a goalie just being barely average the whole way. If he doesn't steal game 1, the finals may have gone in a whole different way and Oilers win. And as bad as he was in games 4, 5 & 6, he bounced back big time in game 7, which is commendable.

I'm kind of like you though. I don't think Bobrsovky is this amazing playoff performer all of a sudden - his overall career playoffs are mostly below average. I just think you're being a bit too dismissive of his past 2 runs, they were quite strong, and I think they have a big impact on his overall legacy.

Anyways - I think it's probably one round too soon for Bobrosvky. I like Fleury more in this round, for example.

 

[Michael Farkas]

And I actually liked Bobrosvky's final performance

Yeah, it's kind of interesting from this perspective too...I liked Bobrovsky's 2023 performance, until the Final. And to be fair, Florida wasn't the defensive team they were in 2023 either. Then I thought he was more "good-ish" throughout the playoff in 2024, and thought he had good Final overall. Shestyorkin was the better goalie in the 2024 playoffs, as was discussed here: Playoff All-Star Teams

But like you said, we can probably can the Bobrovsky talk. I don't think it's time for him yet. I also like Fleury more this round.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ed Giacomin in select playoffs

1971 Playoffs
Rangers beat Leafs 5-4
Shots: Rangers 31 Leafs 28
Rangers 1 Leafs 0

The Sun · ‎Apr 8, 1971

In New York, it was supposed to be a goaltender's battle, featuring Ed Giacomin of the Rangers and Jacques Plante of the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Rangers won 5-4. Instead, the hot goaltenders showed up in the Boston- Montreal series where Canadiens' rookie Ken Dryden was at least as good as Boston's Cheevers.

Leafs win 4-1
Shots: Rangers 24 Leafs 23
Rangers 1 Leafs 1

Bangor Daily News · ‎Apr 9, 1971

Toronto took only four shots on Rangers goalie Ed Giacomin in the first period, but scored on two of them.

Leafs beat Rangers 3-1
Shots: Rangers 34 Leafs 24
Rangers 1 Leafs 2
Backup Gilles Villemure plays


Rangers beat Leafs 4-2
Shots: Rangers 32 Leafs 29
Rangers 2 Leafs 2

The Owosso Argus-Press · ‎Apr 12, 1971

Eddie Giacomin, New York's goalie, was a major reason for the Rangers' turnabout. They had dropped two of the first three games— and looked bad in all of them— before thumping the Maple Leafs 4-2 in Toronto Sunday night

"I've been taking a lot of abuse lately," Giacomins said after his fine performance, supported by a solid defence. "Will I be the playoff goalie or the same old Eddie?"

Rangers beat Leafs 3-1
Shots: Rangers 29 Leafs 25
Rangers 3 Leafs 2

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 14, 1971

Ranger goalie Ed Giacomin was assessed $400 for twice leaving the net to join the free-for-alls

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 14, 1971

Then, with less than seven minutes left in the game, goalie Ed Giacomin was robbed of his shutout when McKenny scored with Rangers Rod Gilbert and Jim Nelson in the penalty box.

Rangers beat Leafs 2-1 in OT
Shots: Rangers 38 Leafs 28
Rangers 4 Leafs 2

The Morning Record · ‎Apr 16, 1971

Giacomin, who had been repeatedly tested in the opening minutes of the game when the Leafs came out flying, preserved the lead-occasionally skating as much as 20 feet out of his net as Toronto attackers swarmed in on him.

Rome News-Tribune · ‎Apr 16, 1971

Giacomin made one brilliant save after another to preserve the lead

Rangers beat Hawks 2-1 in OT
Shots: Rangers 34 Hawks 32
Rangers 1 Black Hawks 0

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 19, 1971

Giacomin Key Figure

Giacomin had the crowd of more than 19,000 shaking their heads before the game was two minutes old when he made a brilliant save on Pit Martin's breakaway.

Giacomin made one of many saves on Chicago superstar Bobby Hull.

Emile Francis, general manager-coach of the New York Rangers said "The key was goaltending and the sound defensive work," he added."Giacomin's save on Koroll in the third period gave us a chance to win."

Hawks beat Rangers 3-0
Shots: Rangers 34 Hawks 32
Rangers 1 Black Hawks 1

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 21, 1971 ·

"On the first power-play, I had the corner open," Hull said. "I was counting it. But Giacomin stopped it."

Giacomin, whose outstanding goaltending in the first game allowed the Rangers to overcome 1-0 first-period deficit, said his team-mates were going to have to score more goals to win the series.

Rangers win 4-1
Shots: Rangers 32 Hawks 17
Rangers 2 Black Hawks 1

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 23, 1971

Giacomin Gets Help

Giacomin, Vezina Trophy winner during the regular season, had a relatively easy night of it as the Rangers scored three goals in the first period and outplayed Chicago throughout the game.

Hawks win 7-1
Shots: Rangers 28 Hawks 35
Rangers 2 Black Hawks 2

Giacomin pulled for start of third period, having allowed 4 goals on 24 shots.


Hawks win 3-2 in OT
Shots: Rangers 29 Hawks 32
Rangers 2 Black Hawks 3

The Spokesman-Review · ‎Apr 28, 1971

The series has been a study of first class goaltending with Ed Giacomin in New York and Tony Esposito in Chicago.

Rangers win 3-2 in triple OT
Shots: Rangers 48 Hawks 26
Rangers 3 Black Hawks 3

The Morning Record · ‎Apr 30, 1971

The best opportunity [in overtime] came in the first minute when Stan Mikita's shot banged off New York goalie Ed Giacomin's mask and the rebound rolled freely across the crease, but the Rangers cleared the puck.

Giacomin had foiled Dennis Hull's breakaway.

Hawks win 4-2
Shots: Rangers 38 Hawks 29
Rangers 4 Black Hawks 3

The Leader-Post · ‎May 3, 1971

Blistering blast by Bobby Hull early in the third period that New York goalie Ed Giacomin is still looking for.

New York had several opportunities to win the game, but couldn't capitalize in front of Esposito.

Some good, some bad. Chicago played a weird series where they would dominate some games and then get outshot in others. Esposito definitely outplayed Giacomin this series, but Giacomin is maybe the most praised Ranger in the first series.


1972 Playoffs
Rangers beat Habs 3-2
Shots: Rangers 37 Habs 19
Rangers 1 Habs 0

No relevant comments


Rangers win 5-2
Shots: Rangers 36 Habs 28
Rangers 2 Habs 0

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 7, 1972

The Rangers, without all-star centre Jean Ratelle, who is out with an ankle injury, were expected to have more trouble against the Canadiens and goalie Ken Dryden who was the outstanding figure in Montreal's surprise win over Boston last year.

Habs win 2-1
Shots: Rangers 23 Habs 26
Rangers 2 Habs 1

Schenectady Gazette · ‎Apr 10, 1972

It stayed 1-1 throughout the remainder of the period with Dryden and Giacomin both turning in sharp saves

Rangers win 6-4
Shots: Rangers 29 Habs 33
Rangers 3 Habs 1

No relevant comments


Habs win 2-1
Shots: Rangers 34 Habs 32
Rangers 3 Habs 2

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 12, 1972

Dryden, who with Ed Giacomin, had splendid games.

Marc Tardiff, who had another fine game, wasn't too upset with being foiled on impossible saves by Ed Giacomin.

Giacomin looked as if he might have been thrown into a state of despair when in the following minutes, he stopped two tremendous shots from in close off the flying Marc Tardiff. "I still don't believe he stopped the second one," said the Granby Packer, "I thought I had the whole net and then out came his glove."

Next, Giacomin stopped Guy Lafleur on a 3-on-1 break.

Rangers beat Habs 3-2
Shots: Rangers 35 Habs 25
Rangers 4 Habs 2


The Telegraph-Herald · ‎Apr 14, 1972

Giacomin was the Ranger hero with two sensational third period saves....with Ken Dryden out of the Montreal nets, Giacomin barely missed the gaping goal with a long clearing shot.

Again Giacomin came up with a big stop, getting his skate on a drive by Lemaire.

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 14, 1972

The Canadiens came out flying before 18,196 fans and had several good scoring chances, but Rangers' netminder Ed Giacomin was oustanding.

Giacomin might be the most praised Ranger this series, but it's close with him, Park, Fairbairn, and Hadfield.



Rangers beat Hawks 3-2
Shots: Rangers 28 Hawks 27
Rangers 1 Hawks 0

The Day · ‎Apr 17, 1972

Ed Giacomin performed brilliantly until the Hawks put on a spurt in the final 10 minutes.

Rangers beat Hawks 5-3
Shots: Rangers 28 Hawks 27
Rangers 2 Hawks 0
Backup Gilles Villemure played as Giacomin had a "twisted knee"


Rangers win 3-2
Shots: Rangers 39 Hawks 23
Rangers 3 Hawks 0
Backup Gilles Villemure played as Giacomin had a "twisted knee". Esposito is also hurt.


Rangers win 6-2
Shots: Rangers 37 Hawks 25
Rangers 4 Hawks 0
Backup Gilles Villemure played as Giacomin had a "twisted knee"


Well, he missed three games and the Rangers sweep a strong offensive team. Lots of Rangers get praised. Gilbert, Tkaczuk, Hadfield, Rousseau, Park, Villemure.



Bruins beat Rangers 6-5
Shots: Rangers 29 Bruins 28
Rangers 0 Bruins 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 1, 1972

All you need to know about the Rangers-Bruins game is that Bobby Orr wasn't among the first three stars. He wasn't a bum. But neither was he an important factor.

Giacomin, who abandoned his choke-up role in the Canadiens series, was injured late in the first game of the Chicago-New York set and was more than adequately replaced by Villemure. Three victories worth of adequacy, too, that stats suggest Giacomin is a "live one" in Boston.

New York's uncontested comeback doesn't free Giacomin - or, rather, Emile Francis - from the hook.

If Giacomin hadn't made two great stops int he next few seconds, Boston easily could have scored an unheard of four goals while shorthanded for two minutes. But Giacomin stopped Orr on a breakaway, then Esposito.

A couple of minutes later, when Giacomin made sensational stops first on Johnny Bucyk and then on Fred Stanfield.

Bruins win 2-1
Shots: Rangers 28 Bruins 25
Rangers 0 Bruins 2

Both backups play


Rangers win 5-2
Shots: Rangers 34 Bruins 39
Rangers 1 Bruins 2

No relevant comments


Bruins win 3-2
Shots: Rangers 25 Bruins 23
Rangers 1 Bruins 3

No relevant comments. All attention is on Orr's great game.


Rangers win 3-2
Shots: Rangers 26 Bruins 38
Rangers 2 Bruins 3

Backup Villemure in net.

The Leader-Post · ‎May 10, 1972

Villemure the Key

The turning point to me was when Francis elected to go with Villemure instead of Ed Giacomin in the Rangers net. Giacomin has appeared shaky in two of his three stars against Boston particularly on Sunday when the Bruins scored twice when he flopped to the ice before the puck was actually shot.

Giacomin was guilty of the same fault when Garnet Bailey got the winning goal in the opening game.

Bruins win 4-2
Shots: Rangers 33 Bruins 27
Rangers 2 Bruins 4

Villemure plays again.


Not a great run at all. He is quite strong in the Montreal series, but is genuinely outplayed by his backup, eventually losing his starting spot. The media is all over the Bruins in the final, particularly Orr, but Esposito, Hodge, Cashman, Bucyk, and Cheevers get love.

Park is the most praised Ranger. Giacomin is not within the top 10 most praised Rangers in the last two series.


1973 Playoffs
Rangers win 6-2
Shots: Rangers 31 Bruins 24
Rangers 1 Bruins 0

The Bulletin · ‎Apr 5, 1973

Giacomin handled the Bruins in the NHL playoff opener

Rangers win 4-2
Shots: Rangers 32 Bruins 30
Rangers 2 Bruins 0

No relevant comments. Media focused on Phil Esposito's injury


Bruins win 4-2
Shots: Rangers 37 Bruins 27
Rangers 2 Bruins 1

No relevant comments.

Rangers win 4-0
Shots: Rangers 25 Bruins 33
Rangers 3 Bruins 1

The Evening News · ‎Apr 9, 1973

"We could have changed things around in the second period," said Bruins Coach Bep Guidolin, "but Giacomin killed us. He made some good early saves and took some heart out of us."

Fans began a sing along, first razzing Boston and then saluting Giacomin.

The Bruins saluted Giacomin's performance. "He's played great in all four games," said Derek Sanderson.

Rangers win 6-3
Shots: Rangers 36 Bruins 31
Rangers 4 Bruins 1

The Journal · ‎Apr 11, 1973

Guidolin reserved special praise for Ed Giacomin, the Ranger goalie who played all five games. "They got great goaltending from Giacomin all through the series," Guidolin said. "He was the big man for their club."

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 11, 1973

"I can't say enough about our goaltender," Ranger coach Emile Francis said, "Our defence played well and Walt Tkaczuk not only gave a second effort, he was giving it a fourth effort."

Good series overall. Esposito getting hurt clearly turned the tide and it's the centre of media attention. Giacomin might have been the most praised Ranger, along with Tkaczuk.


Rangers beat Hawks 4-1
Shots: Rangers 25 Hawks 22
Rangers 1 Hawks 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 13, 1973

Unless there's a major reversal of form in the next week or 10 days the New York Rangers are going to bustle and forecheck their way into the Stanley Cup finals with a minimum of difficulty.

Giacomin made the save of the game on Dennis Hull who was in possession 10 feet from the net

Hawks win 5-4
Shots: Rangers 32 Hawks 29
Rangers 1 Hawks 1

The Day · ‎Apr 16, 1973

Francis Uncertain on Goalie

He had both of them in the nets Sunday in the Black Hawks' 5-4 victory that knotted the best-of-seven series at a game apiece. He used Giacomin in the first period. Before it was half over, the Hawks a 3-0 lead with two of the goals deflecting in off New York players. Then Villemure took over - and New York took over control of the game, tying it up before the second period was half over.

Hawks win 2-1
Shots: Rangers 38 Hawks 28
Rangers 1 Hawks 2

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 18, 1973

Mikita said "Three times earlier in the game I had Eddie Giacomin set up and ready for the thinking man's goal, but each time he took it away from me.

Giacomin had to have the feeling he had played a good hockey game. And so did Tony Esposito.

It was obvious right from the start that both goalies came to paly, as Giacomin was tested time and again.

Hawks win 3-1
Shots: Rangers 39 Hawks 21
Rangers 1 Hawks 3

The Evening News · ‎Apr 20, 1973

Chicago managed only two shots at Rangers goalie Ed Giacomin in the opening period.

Hawks win 4-1
Shots: Rangers 29 Hawks 25
Rangers 1 Hawks 4

No relevant comments


Good, not great series. Ratelle and Tkaczuk get the most praise. Dennis Hull the big star for Chicago. Rangers were the favourites and collapsed.


1974 Playoffs
Rangers win 4-1. Giacomin named first star
Shots: Rangers 31 Canadiens 24
Rangers 1 Habs 0

The Day · ‎Apr 11, 1974

Larocque, Giacomin Shine

Shutt, who felt Giacomin "robbed me a couple of time,"

The Canadiens did show spurts of solving the Rangers tenacious forechecking and their standup blueliners but they couldn't solve Giacomin.

Habs win 4-1
Shots: Rangers 19 Canadiens 31
Rangers 1 Habs 1

No relevant comments


Habs win 4-2
Shots: Rangers 34 Canadiens 32
Rangers 1 Habs 2

No relevant comments


Rangers win 6-2
Shots: Rangers 38 Canadiens 28
Rangers 2 Habs 2

The Phoenix · ‎Apr 15, 1974

Emile Francis said "Eddie Giacomin has been great through the playoffs. He's shown a helluva'lot of people, think, what he's made of. He's a fighter. He sure led the way again today." Giacomin came up with the big saves when the team needed it, and the Rangers were able to come from behind

Rangers win 3-2 in OT. Ed Giacomin named first star
Shots: Rangers 42 Canadiens 27
Rangers 3 Habs 2

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 17, 1974

One man who never quit fighting was Giacomin. He'd made super stops on Chuck Lefley on a breakaway - and Frank Mahovlich, then lead the cheerleading in the vital last-ditch try for the tying goal.

Rangers win 5-2
Shots: Rangers 42 Canadiens 27
Rangers 3 Habs 2

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 19, 1974
Giacomin's Will Sidelines Habs

They did it because goalie Ed Giacomin all but demanded that they do it. They did it because of almost flawless penalty killing by Walt Tkaczuk and Bill Fairbarin. They did it because of an airtight checking job on Yvan Cournoyer by Bruce MacGregor, who also pitched in a series-high six goals. And they did it because, as Francis said, they just refused to be beaten.

Giacomin filled that role [of a leader]. In each of the last three games of the series, the team had to battle from behind and each time, they got the job done.

"I'm disappointed, but I did my best, "Laroque said. "Giacomin and MacGregor were the difference.

Giacomin said the Rangers had become convinced they shouldn't think of "series past", but had agreed "let's put it all together now and go all the way."

Giacomin let by example Thursday night. After giving up early-game goals to Henri Richard and Steve Shutt, Giacomin shut the door on the Canadiens and allowed his teammates to pile up five straight goals.

A good series. He is the most praised Ranger. MacGregor, Stemkowski and Tkaczuk have a strong series too. Giacomin stayed strong in the last couple games when they needed him.


Flyers beat Rangers 4-0
Shots: Rangers 19 Flyers 23
Rangers 0 Flyers 1

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 22, 1974

The Flyers made life miserable for Giacomin, buzzing through and around his crease and trapping him when he wandered away from the net.

Flyers Coach Fed Shero said his team had bothered Giacomin as much as possible "without taking a penalty"

Flyers win 5-2
Shots: Rangers 30 Flyers 30
Rangers 0 Flyers 2

No relevant comments


Rangers win 5-3
Shots: Rangers 39 Flyers 15
Rangers 1 Flyers 2

Edmonton Journal · ‎Apr 26, 1974

The Flyers jumped into a 2-0 lead by 12:20 of the opening period from goals on the first two shots on Giacomin.

Rangers win 2-1 in OT
Shots: Rangers 37 Flyers 20
Rangers 2 Flyers 2

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 29, 1974

He's 34 but some of his hair is as white as his goalie mask. Eddie Giacomin is the oldest member of the New York Rangers and suddenly the most respected.

Eddie Giacomin has made the big saves when they were needed most - when another goal might have doomed Rangers in each game.

When he's performing aggressively, Eddie Giacomin is as dependable as any of the NHL's best goaltenders. When he's back under the crossbar and hesitating, he's vulnerable. But against the Flyers he hasn't been able to clear the puck as much as he usually does because they've been shooting it in to his right.

Flyers win 4-1
Shots: Rangers 28 Flyers 28
Rangers 2 Flyers 3

No relevant comments


Rangers win 4-1
Shots: Rangers 38 Flyers 25
Rangers 3 Flyers 3

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 3, 1974

The two people most responsible for this Ranger win were probably goaltender Eddie Giacomin and Lady Luck.

"They played a great game," said Flyer Coach Fred Shero. "Giacomin saved them. Bobby Clarke should have had three goals."

Flyers win 4-3
Shots: Rangers 34 Flyers 46
Rangers 3 Flyers 4

Beaver Country Times · ‎May 6, 1974

Rangers "Choke" Again In The Playoffs

Giacomin, who was marvelous in defeat.

A good series even in the loss. Bernie Parent is the most praised single player. For the Rangers, Park, Tkaczuk, and Giacomin are all praised.



Overall, Giacomin is very inconsistent. Can win a game himself and can lose a game himself. Losing his starting job in 1972 isn't a great look. These four years are the Rangers at their best and he's just not the best player. Ratelle, Tkaczuk, and Park are for sure ahead. Maybe even Irvine. The media definitely leans into Giacomin having a reputation as being a playoff flop and he repeatedly proves them tight. 1974 is probably his best single playoffs, but he runs into Bernie Parent and a violent Flyers team.

 

[overpass]

In partial defence of Ed Giacomin's playoffs, I'd just like to point out that he faced a murderer's row of opponents. I don't think he ever had an easy playoff series. No expansion opponents until his final playoff in 1975 when he played two games against the Islanders. Unlike Tony Esposito, who got to play an expansion team in the first round each year.

https://hockeygoalies.org/bio/giacomin.html

Take a look at his OS%+ in his playoff career. Every year his playoff opponents had shooting percentages of 10-30% above league average. His "worst" playoff opponent by shooting percentage was the 1970 Boston Bruins!

That said, I wouldn't say he performed well in the playoffs, even considering the opponents.

Also, something I noticed when running numbers on Tony Esposito last round - Giacomin fell apart against top opponents toward the end of his career, when he was splitting time with Gilles Villemure. Montreal and Boston just lit him up.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ya Giacomin didn't have an easy go. I was surprised at how good those mid 70s Rangers were, with lots of guys spoken of positively. But Boston, Montreal, and Chicago were just better teams. Montreal and Chicago had better goalies. Boston arguably did too. It's the reality of being a top 5 team in the league, but clearly not top 2. Bernie Parent steals the series in 1974.

Ratelle and Park are actual stars. Park was strong, but not "second best d-man in the world" good. Ratelle underperformed for sure. Guys like Tkaczuk, Stemkowski, Gilbert, Fairbairn, Vickers are all good, but they don't match the top scale of the aforementioned teams.

Park doesn't get much help on the blueline. No other defender gets notable praise in this era for the Rangers. Is Jim Neilson the second best defenseman on the team in those years? That's....not great, especially for how old he was. Dale Rolfe isn't the guy you want stopping Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull.

 

[Professor What]

One thing I'd ask about Giacomin's playoffs, is that, while it's fair to say he never had an easy series, how many of them did he make harder on himself? I look at 69 and 70, and while we're talking small sample sizes, the number are atrocious. Having it happen back to back years makes it look worse.

We're talking about a guy that I really like in the regular season up through 70-71, but with the playoffs and the collapse he seemed to have after his sixth season, I don't see the case for him yet.

As for Bobrovsky's playoffs, I think he's gotten too much credit for a team system in the last two years. It's that binary win or lose thinking that does it. When a guy is on a team that makes the Stanley Cup Finals in consecutive years and wins one and he's perceived to be an important guy on the team, he's going to get fawned over. Fortunately, I don't think there's a lot of binary thinking in this project.

 

[MadArcand]

As for Bobrovsky's playoffs, I think he's gotten too much credit for a team system in the last two years. It's that binary win or lose thinking that does it. When a guy is on a team that makes the Stanley Cup Finals in consecutive years and wins one and he's perceived to be an important guy on the team, he's going to get fawned over. Fortunately, I don't think there's a lot of binary thinking in this project.

To be fair, no way do Panthers make the finals in 2023 without him going God mode. They've been totally dominated in the ECF, outshot 33-24 per 60 mins, yet they were the ones who got the sweep, courtesy of Bob's absurd aberrant performance. Then in the finals they got demolished by a not that great Vegas team because Bob decided to suck. They were not outplayed, Bob just lost them the finals singlehandedly, just like he singlehandedly won them the ECF.

 

[rmartin65]

I really hope we wait a while on MAF.

Full disclosure- I am a Penguins fan, so I have both a soft spot for him and a grudge against him.

A goalie, more than any other position in the sport, in my opinion, can break his (or her) team's spirit. No other goalie we will talk about this project did this more than MAF.

Letting in awful goals? Yep, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Letting in poorly timed goals? Yep- take a look at this thread, where Fleury leads first goals given up since 2002-2003 (through February 2023, at least) in first goals given up. Certainly some of that is influenced by his lengthy career, but it matches what we all have seen over that career.

I'm not saying the Pens win X many Stanley Cups without Fleury. I do think he cost them real chances for Cups, though, and I don't think that it is any coincidence that the Penguins win two Cups immediately after he is replaced by a guy who didn't let in those backbreaking (and, frankly, just plain odd) goals with that much regularity.

I'll gladly take Bob over MAF, if we have to vote in one of these guys right now. Of course, we don't have to, haha.

I'm giving up.

Why?

 

[bobholly39]

I really hope we wait a while on MAF.

Full disclosure- I am a Penguins fan, so I have both a soft spot for him and a grudge against him.

A goalie, more than any other position in the sport, in my opinion, can break his (or her) team's spirit. No other goalie we will talk about this project did this more than MAF.

Letting in awful goals? Yep, both in the regular season and the playoffs. Letting in poorly timed goals? Yep- take a look at this thread, where Fleury leads first goals given up since 2002-2003 (through February 2023, at least) in first goals given up. Certainly some of that is influenced by his lengthy career, but it matches what we all have seen over that career.

I'm not saying the Pens win X many Stanley Cups without Fleury. I do think he cost them real chances for Cups, though, and I don't think that it is any coincidence that the Penguins win two Cups immediately after he is replaced by a guy who didn't let in those backbreaking (and, frankly, just plain odd) goals with that much regularity.

I'll gladly take Bob over MAF, if we have to vote in one of these guys right now. Of course, we don't have to, haha.


Why?

Since 2002-2003 season, Fleury also leads the league in:

games played
games started
wins
losses
(not OTL - 1 behind Lunqdvist at #2)
shots against
saves
goals against
total ice time
shutouts

And - those are just the stats that show up on the first page of nhl's statspage- I'm sure there are a lot more he leads in.

Point is - he's played longer than anyone else this century, and leads in pretty much every "longevity" metric you can think of.

First goals allowed? Yep. He probably also leads in 2nd goals allowed, and 3rd goals allowed, and goals allowed on days that end in Y.

Probably ought to have some "per game" stuff in there to make it worthwhile.

Also - technically, allowing a first goal can obviously be bad, but if he happens to be the best goalie in history of hockey at not allowing the 2nd goal of a game, that would kind of counter that stat.

So - really need a lot more context before taking this into account in any meaningful way.

Doesn't mean Fleury is flawless of course, he definitely has had a lot of "low lows" in his career.

 

[rmartin65]

Since 2002-2003 season, Fleury also leads the league in:

games played
games started
wins
losses
(not OTL - 1 behind Lunqdvist at #2)
shots against
saves
goals against
total ice time
shutouts

And - those are just the stats that show up on the first page of nhl's statspage- I'm sure there are a lot more he leads in.

Point is - he's played longer than anyone else this century, and leads in pretty much every "longevity" metric you can think of.

Well... yeah, that's why I made sure to mention that it was certainly influenced by his career length. Play a lot of games, you are probably going to give up a lot of goals.

First goals allowed? Yep. He probably also leads in 2nd goals allowed, and 3rd goals allowed, and goals allowed on days that end in Y.

I know this isn't your argument, but its kind of funny that the argument sounds like "he lets in a lot of goals", haha. But yes- he's played a lot of games, and he's let in a lot of goals.

Probably ought to have some "per game" stuff in there to make it worthwhile.

For sure, I think that would be a huge help. It isn't my thread, and I don't have the data set, though, so it isn't something I am equipped to do right now.

Also - technically, allowing a first goal can obviously be bad, but if he happens to be the best goalie in history of hockey at not allowing the 2nd goal of a game, that would kind of counter that stat.

This is quite the hypothetical. Do you have any evidence that this is at all true?

So - really need a lot more context before taking this into account in any meaningful way.

Contextualize away; I am a big fan of adding context to numbers.

That stat, as imperfect as I agree that it is, was readily available and matches the eye test. I felt that it was worth bringing up. It wasn't meant to be the final word on MAF's candidacy this round.

 

[bobholly39]

Well... yeah, that's why I made sure to mention that it was certainly influenced by his career length. Play a lot of games, you are probably going to give up a lot of goals.

I know this isn't your argument, but its kind of funny that the argument sounds like "he lets in a lot of goals", haha. But yes- he's played a lot of games, and he's let in a lot of goals.


For sure, I think that would be a huge help. It isn't my thread, and I don't have the data set, though, so it isn't something I am equipped to do right now.


This is quite the hypothetical. Do you have any evidence that this is at all true?


Contextualize away; I am a big fan of adding context to numbers.

That stat, as imperfect as I agree that it is, was readily available and matches the eye test. I felt that it was worth bringing up. It wasn't meant to be the final word on MAF's candidacy this round.

My point is - Fleury leads in pretty much every "longevity" metric imaginable for goalies in the 21st century. And his longevity is a positive thing, not a negative.

Saying he leads in first goals allowed, or overall goals allowed, or overall saves, or first saves...it all comes down to longevity. It doesn't really say much, one way or another, outside of longevity.