HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4

[Michael Farkas]

Flat Walsh talk here...

Another article says - after Worters finished 2nd for the Hart the previous year - that "The Americans had better keep Flat Walsh at any cost."

...

"...may have been only a sub goalie for the Maroons, but that was because the Montrealers didn't know how well Flat can play. He made some sweet saves last night, and when he wasn't engaged actively in warding off shots he was chattering away much like wining ball players do behind their pitchers."

"The Maroons have a good goalie. They do not need Flat right now. Having him carried on the Americans' salary list means quite a saving. But you can bet the Maroons will keep a string on him unless the Americans talk big money. Twenty thousand was the last heard price asked by the Maroons. It's steep. But Walsh appears worth it."

 

[jigglysquishy]

Johnny Bower in Stanley Cup games

1959 Finals
Montreal beats Toronto 5-3
Shots: Leafs 24 Habs 31
Leafs 0 Habs 1

Bower barely mentioned, but I did find this note
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 10, 1959

Reay cites Detroit, who were weak on defence, as a fine example. For the first half of the season, Terry Sawchuk was brilliant behind an ordinary defence. But he couldn't stand the continual pounding and broke during he last half of the schedule. Several times this year, after Johnny Bower had experienced a bad night, Ed Chadwick was rushed in for the next game. The change often worked.

Montreal beats Toronto 3-1
Shots: Leafs 29 Habs 41
Leafs 0 Habs 2

The Leader-Post · ‎April 13, 1959

It was a rugged, bitterly fought game, with standout work by goalies Johnny Bower of the Leafs and Jacques Plante of Montreal. Bower in particular came up with some big saves in the first two periods.
Coach Toe Blake, whose team now holds a 2-0 lead in the best-of-seven Stanley Cup final, called it a "very rough" game and said Bower played an outstanding game in the Toronto nets.

Toronto beats Montreal 3-2 in OT
Shots: Leafs 35 Habs 31
Leafs 1 Habs 2

The Windsor Daily Star · ‎April 15, 1959

Canadiens went into overtime bent on getting things cleaned up in a hurry. But Bower handled them. Defenceman Doug Harvey rushed the length of the rink, but his shot was turned aside. Bonin got in close. Bower took his hard drive on the chest.

Montreal wins 3-2
Shots: Leafs 28 Habs 29
Leafs 1 Habs 3

The Calgary Herald · ‎April 17, 1959

In the first period Bower stopped at least three bullet-like drives by the 28-year-old right winger [Geoffrion]
Both goaltenders were sensational.

Montreal wins 5-3
Shots: Leafs 33 Habs 37 via NHL.com, Leafs 42 Habs 36 via Star Phoenix
Leafs 1 Habs 4
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 20, 1959

Goaltending throughout the series was a big factor, with superb performances by both Plante and Bower. If there was any doubt about it, the balance swung sharply in Plante's favour in Saturday's game.
It was unfortunate that Bower, so often the king-in of the Leaf defence, looked weak on two of the Montreal goals. Both shots were fired by the burly Boom Boom Geoffrion.

Lots is made of Geoffrion having the best shot in the world (despite suffering from a stomach bug) . Bower and Plante get lots of praise. A few instances where Bower is scored on via rebound.


1960 Finals
Canadiens beat Leafs 4-2. Big praise to Harvey and Plante.
Shots: Leafs 29 Habs 42
Leafs 0 Habs 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 8, 1960

Leafs Find Plante Tough
Time and again they barged in on goalie Johnny Bower and missed at least half a dozen other big opportunities.

The Windsor Star · ‎April 8, 1960

The Leafs did not play badly in a general sense, in fact looked as good as in any of the games against Detroit in the semi-final. Olmstead, Frank Mahovlich, Dick Duff, Red Kelly and Larry Regan were moving well. Bower had better nights.
Plante didn't have nearly as much work as Bower, but he made no mistake and controlled traffic with sharp efficiency.

Montreal wins 2-1
Shots: Habs 36 Leafs 27
Leafs 0 Habs 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 11, 1960

Both Plante and Bower played superbly. Bower saving his team in the third period with particularly brilliant stops on Henri Richard and Phil Goyette.
Imlach though Bower had turned in a great game. "You couldn't find any fault with Johnny tonight. If we can't score more than one goal for him, you can't expect him to shut them out to win."

Montreal wins 5-2
Shots: Habs 31 Leafs 34
Leafs 0 Habs 3

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 13, 1960

Leafs started out as if they would skate the Canadiens right off the ice, but the defending champions soon settled down and the game developed into a fast-skating wide-open affair with goal-keepers Jacques Plante in the Canadien nets and Johnny Bower in the Toronto goal making brilliant saves
"I got Dickie Moore's rebound and let go a backhander over Bower" [from Rocket Richard

The Windsor Star · ‎April 13, 1960

Imlach was "very disappointed" in his team's play. He said their mistakes were inexcusable. "We gave them three goals, he said. I'm not going to blame Bower."
"Plante played a marvelous game," the Leaf coach said. "I don't know how he managed to stop some of those shots. A couple of times he couldn't even see the puck and even then he was stopping them."

Montreal wins 4-0
Shots: Habs 32 Leafs 30
Leafs 0 Habs 4

The Montreal Gazette · ‎April 15, 1960

Beliveau opened the scoring...with a screened drive from the blueline that whizzed through a maze of skates and gave Bower no chance.
Beliveau just about had another one when he sailed in on Bower from the right and let go a short blast that the Leaf goalie smothered in his pads.
Leafs managed to weather the penalty string, thanks to some neat work by Bower.
Plante was sensational stopping Olmstead.

It seems like a great series. Plante and Bower are praised repeatedly, but Montreal thoroughly outplayed Toronto.


1962 Finals
Leafs win 4-1
Shots: Leafs 37 Blackhawks 26
Leafs 1 Blackhawks 0

The Leader-Post · ‎April 11, 1962

Bobby Hull put Chicago ahead 1-0 before many of the 13,069 fans at Maple Leaf Gardens had settled down. From there in, goalie Johnny Bower in the Leaf net played flawlessly behind a rock solid defence and backchecking forards.

Toronto wins 3-2
Shots: Leafs 31 Blackhawks 29
Leafs 2 Blackhawks 0

No relevant comments. Everything is about a controversial non-goal from Mikita onto Bower


Blackhawks win 3-0. Last goal was an empty-netter
Shots: Leafs 19 Blackhawks 36
Leafs 2 Blackhawks 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 16, 1962

The Toronto netminder, harassed most of the 60 minutes by the Hawks, finished with 33 saves against only 19 for Hall.

Blackhawks win 4-1
Shots: Leafs 31 Blackhawks 33
Leafs 2 Blackhawks 2

Bower leaves gave in the first period when he "pulled a leg muscle after doing the splits to save on an ankle-high blistering from by Bobby Hull

Leafs win 8-4
Bower does not play
Leafs 3 Blackhawks 2

Leafs win 2-1
Bower does not play
Leafs 4 Blackhawks 2


When he played he was praised, but it's a hard look when backup Don Simmons replaces you and wins two games.


1963 Finals
Leafs win 4-2
Shots: Leafs 27 Red Wings 32
Leafs 1 Red Wings 0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 10, 1963

Duff, taking advantage of some uncertain netminding by Detroit's Terry Sawchuk, gave Leafs an early spurt.
Bower had his rough moments, too, particularly In the second period when the Wings took pot shots from all angles and ended up with 14 drives at him.

Leafs win 4-2
Shots: Leafs 37 Red Wings 27
Leafs 2 Red Wings 0

No relevant comments. Gordie Howe gets praise, but the rest of the Red Wings played poorly.


Red Wings win 3-2
Shots: Leafs 32 Red Wings 31
Leafs 2 Red Wings 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 15, 1963

Bower had to make 28 saves and Sawchuk 30, but the antics of neither was startling enough to amaze the crowd.

The Windsor Star · ‎April 15, 1963

"Punch" Imlach summed up his club's performance with "We just didn't knock enough of them down. Maybe we were overconfident we could win in straight games. Tonight we had no drive, our skating and checking was bad and we kept giving the puck away. I couldn't fault out goaltender (Bower) but the rest of the club was bad. Defence was loose and we just couldn't command the play."

Toronto beats Detroit 4-2
Shots: Leafs 33 Red Wings 40
Leafs 3 Red Wings 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 17, 1963

Toronto goaltender Johnny Bower had his busiest night of the series, and the play who gave him the most trouble was his summertime fishing companion, Howe. The Detroit right winger, who more often than not is one of the best players on the ice, had an assist besides his own marker. Bower, at an official 38 the oldest player in the league, made 38 saves. His youthful performance did nothing to encourage never-ending rumors he is more than 40.

The Windsor Star · ‎April 17, 1963

They had the Leafs in considerable trouble in the first two periods, but couldn't find the let and Johnny Bower didn't them. Bower shut out Detroit over the final 37 minutes, more than atoning for letting Gord Howe beat him at the start of the game with a long shot.
Imlach said he would probably have yanked Bower in favour of Don Simmons had Johnny exhibited additional unsteadiness.

Toronto wins 3-1
Shots: Leafs 27 Red Wings 27
Leafs 4 Red Wings 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 19, 1963

After the presentation, Bower and Howe, with arms draped around each other, exchanged congratulations. Said Bower: "It was a close game and could have gone either way." And Howe retorted: "It was your fault it didn't go our way."
The tension of this game was noticeable from the start, especially when Wings opened with a burst of shots around Bower and the Leafs went nearly four minutes without getting a direct drive at Sawchuk.
Johnny Bower: the veteran netminder came up with the big saves for Toronto.

1964 Finals
Toronto wins 3-2
Shots: Leafs 32 Red Wings 32
Leafs 1 Red Wings 0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 13, 1964

Bower turned aside 30 shots, including a couple of dangerous ones by Howe and Barkley In the late stages. The Leafs played with defencemen Carl Brewer, who suffered badly bruised ribs int eh last game of the Montreal semi-final.

Red Wings win 4-3 in OT
Shots: Leafs 29 Red Wings 49
Leafs 1 Red Wings 1


Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 15, 1964

Veteran goalkeeper Johnny Bower was hopping all over the place to stop 38 Detroit shots in the first 60 minutes and another seven in overtime. Wings forechecked and backchecked Leafs almost to frustration and their forward lines with Ullman, Howe, Jeffrey, and Smith leading the way, poured in on Bower. But the venerable goalkeeper managed to stick out legs and arms to smother labelled shots.

Red Wings win 4-3
Shots: Leafs 34 Red Wings 34
Leafs 1 Red Wings 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 15, 1964

Bower had just made a save on Howe and was trying to regain his position when Delvecchio flipped in his third goal of the playoff series.
Bower made cat-like saves on UIlman, Howe, and MacGregor.

Leafs win 4-2
Shots: Leafs 35 Red Wings 27
Leafs 2 Red Wings 2

The Windsor Star · ‎April 20, 1964

Terry Sawchuk foiled 31 thrusts and had many more of the deadly variety than Johnny Bower in the Leafian citadel who registered 25 saves.

Red Wings win 2-1
Shots: Leafs 34 Red Wings 34
Leafs 2 Red Wings 3

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 22, 1964

The Detroit club...got outstanding goaltending from Sawchuk, who stopped 33 shots - including several breakaways in an exceptionally wide-open game.
Leafs goaltender Johnny Bower, who stopped 32 shots, made big saves on Joyal, rookie Paul Henderson and veteran defenceman Marcel Provonost.
Howe fired a hard screened shot that Bower stopped, but the puck rolled from his pad as he dropped to the ice and Howe strode in to pike it into the net.

Leafs win 4-3 in OT
Shots: Leafs 36 Red Wings 41
Leafs 3 Red Wings 3

The Leader-Post · ‎April 24, 1964

Most of the goals Thursday were from close in and neither Sawchuk nor Toronto's Johnny Bower could be blamed.

The Windsor Star · ‎April 24, 1964

In the scoreless third stanza, Wings outshot Toronto 16-8, but couldn't "buy a goal" as their deflects went which-way and Bower had nothing to give away for free.

Leafs win 4-0
Shots: Leafs 37 Red Wings 33
Leafs 4 Red Wings 3

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 27, 1964

The Wings battled gamely in an effort to tie, but couldn't beat 39-year-old Johnny Bower in the Toronto nets.
The Wings lacked Howe's leadership int he climatic game as the big right winger, obviously bone-tired from playing close to 40 minutes in each of the 13 previous playoff games, could muster only a half-dozen dangerous rushes.
Wings' young players, notably Ed Joyal, Paul Henderson and Andre Pronovost, tried to take up the slack but they were no match for the fire-up Leafs or for Bower, who played one of his steadiest games of the playoffs.
Bower handled 33 shots in posting the shutout. Many were from long range, but he made some excellent saves, including two each on Howe and Norman Ullman.
Detroit goalkeeper Terry Sawchuk also stopped 33 shots, most of them more difficult than the ones that tested Bower.

Bower is the most highly praised player on either side throughout the 7 game series, though Howe and Sawchuk get lots too.


1967 Finals
Montreal wins 6-2
Shots: Leafs 26 Habs 44
Leafs 0 Habs 1
Sawchuk started the game, but let in 5 goals on 35 shots. Bower replaced him in the third and saved 8 of 9.


Toronto wins 3-0
Shots: Leafs 43 Habs 31
Leafs 1 Habs 1
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 24, 1967

Veteran Johnny Bower, 42, was the hero of the game. Cool and collected throughout, despite being hit in the face several times with sticks, Bower stopped as many as three shots in succession on a number of occasions.
It was the fifth playoff shutout for Bower, who has played in 10 Stanley Cup seasons.
John Bower, goalie with the Toronto Maple Leafs and one of the last holdouts against wearing a mask during NHL games, is relenting. After 22 professional seasons and countless stitches taken in his head and face, Bower, 43, conceded Saturday he would probably be wearing a mask next season.

Toronto wins 3-2 in double OT
Shots: Leafs 54 Habs 63
Leafs 2 Habs 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 26, 1967

Goaltender Johnny Bower was a standout for the Leafs, who outlasted the tiring Canadiens.
Defenceman Tim Horton of Toronto went off for interference… But Johnny Bower of Toronto kept them at bay, making saves on two good slapshots from JC Tremblay.

The Montreal Gazette · ‎April 26, 1967

It had been the other way around the first extra period when Bower kept robbing the Canadiens time after time. Gilles Tremblay, the hard luck winger, just couldn’t believe Bower had stopped him after he cruised in to try for Larose’s rebound. “I had him beat even though I was in close as Bower came out of the net,” said Tremblay. “ I lifted the puck and it barely touched Bower’s shoulder before taking a crazy bounce.”

Montreal wins 6-2
Shots: Leafs 37 Habs 40
Leafs 2 Habs 2

The Windsor Star · ‎April 28, 1967

Bower pulled a muscle in his thigh during the warmup Thursday night with the result that Terry Sawchuk, cold and inactive since the opening game of the Stanley Cup Finals , replaced him and got walloped by Montreal 6-2.
Sawchuk had a bad game, and admitted it, but so did several others of the Toronto team. Bower may be ready to play the fifth game at Montreal Saturday afternoon, but it’s guesswork at this stage.

Toronto wins 4-1
Shots: Leafs 29 Habs 38
Leafs 3 Habs 2
Sawchuk played over Bower and gets lots of praise

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 1, 1967

A strong performance from the sometimes-maligned Terry Sawchuk and plenty of hustle and muscle from forwards and defencemen alike earned Toronto a decision.

Toronto wins 3-1
Shots: Leafs 35 Habs 41
Leafs 4 Habs 2
Sawchuk keeps the net and again has another strong performance.


Hard to read this one. When Bower plays he has a very strong series including some overtime heroics. When Sawchuk comes back in for games 5 and 6 he plays tremendously, stopping 75 of 77 shots (a 0.975!). Outside game 1 and 4 lots of praise is given to both goalies. Vachon gets praise too.



Overall, I came away incredibly impressed with Bower. He gets heaps up praise in 1959, 1960, 1963, and 1964. Across those four series he's easily the most praised Leaf. He faced Plante-Plante-Sawchuk-Sawchuk across those four series and all three goalies get enormous praise. 1967 is a different story, as Sawchuk is the lead goalie and Bower saves in relief.

Bower was prone to being scored on rebounds. It comes up time and time again.

I have him and Vasilevskiy 1 and 2 this round.

 

[MXD]

Flat Walsh talk here...

Another article says - after Worters finished 2nd for the Hart the previous year - that "The Americans had better keep Flat Walsh at any cost."

...

"...may have been only a sub goalie for the Maroons, but that was because the Montrealers didn't know how well Flat can play. He made some sweet saves last night, and when he wasn't engaged actively in warding off shots he was chattering away much like wining ball players do behind their pitchers."

"The Maroons have a good goalie. They do not need Flat right now. Having him carried on the Americans' salary list means quite a saving. But you can bet the Maroons will keep a string on him unless the Americans talk big money. Twenty thousand was the last heard price asked by the Maroons. It's steep. But Walsh appears worth it."

Andrew Hammond.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't like the idea of guys getting inducted without getting a real look at. We did it with Belfour. The project takes six months but in some cases still feels rushed. I hope we can take a real look at both Parent and Smith before one gets in.

They're up for second best NHL goalie born between 1931 and 1965. It's a very wide range that represents prime years of roughly 1965-1988. Tony O and Holocek are going to be the only other guys from this wide age range up in the next 3-4 rounds.

I want to dig into the playoffs more for them before I vote.

 

[Professor What]

I don't like the idea of guys getting inducted without getting a real look at. We did it with Belfour. The project takes six months but in some cases still feels rushed. I hope we can take a real look at both Parent and Smith before one gets in.

They're up for second best NHL goalie born between 1931 and 1965. It's a very wide range that represents prime years of roughly 1965-1988. Tony O and Holocek are going to be the only other guys from this wide age range up in the next 3-4 rounds.

I want to dig into the playoffs more for them before I vote.

I think playoffs are a big argument for both Smith and Parent. Smith wasn't ever really the clear #1 in the regular season, but the dynasty adds something to his legacy as he was definitely the go-to guy in the playoffs. And Parent, well, that two year peak continued in the playoffs. I think a lot of my decision on where to rank the two of them is going to be how I feel about they playoffs at the end of this week.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Billy Smith talks about his usage (and gives me a nod about the league starting to come back into form finally in the mid 80's after being poor for quite a bit)...

THN: The “expert” opinion was that you simply were not going to be traded because you have saved the team in so many playoffs and you might do it again this year.

SMITH: I feel that way, too. If I hadn’t had a good string of series last spring then there would have been a possibility that I would have been traded. Hey, you go year by year. But I think last year my performances were more or less like the first Cup year (1980). Because of that I really didn’t feel they were going to trade me.

THN: What about last year’s loss to the Oilers in the final?

SMITH: We played well until two-and-a-half periods had gone by in the third game (with the series tied at one apiece). That’s when I got hurt but nobody really knew about it until the end of the series. I hit my wrist behind the net. After I got hurt it was almost as if the Oilers knew what was wrong. They started getting in close on me and there was nothing I could do. I had played well up until then, and they (management) thought, hey, we’re going to go with you anyway. I said, “Sure, I’ll do my best.”

...

THN: Up until this fall, the Islanders had a three-goalie system. How did it affect the team?

SMITH: It gave me a lot of holidays, that’s for sure. Seriously, it’s the type of thing that doesn’t work for a long period of time. They realized it here. You can’t play one guy every seven days and expect him to play well. It just doesn’t work that way. I wasn’t playing regularly until we got to the playoffs, I didn’t get any kind of rhythm going. Then, I played every night in the playoffs and I got the rhythm.

THN: What does this rhythm mean to a goalkeeper?

SMITH: That’s why I got hot in the playoffs. I had the rhythm going. People don’t understand that, a lot of times, the puck will hit a goalie because he’s in the right position. That’s the rhythm. When you play a lot, just the motion saves you. And when you don’t play regularly, that’s what hurts. Like in the old days, everybody raved about Jacques Plante. Yeah, but he played every game. There’s a big difference when you play every game and when you play one and sit one and you play one. There’s a big difference and people don’t realize that.

[Then it concludes with some talk about his hairpiece]

Mildly interesting from Rollie Melanson...

The kind of help Melanson needed last week was from his teammates and he wasn’t getting much. In his three starts, he allowed 14 goals, but he also faced 120 shots in that span.

“I don’t know why. but the team always seems to be flat when I’m playing,” Melanson said after the Washington game. “I’m not saying I’ve been sharp, but it’s a fact that we play sloppy when I’m in there.

“Maybe the guys don’t have that much faith in me, or they don’t feel comfortable when I’m in there. Whatever it is, the goaltender’s going to get the blame when there’s a breakdown. It’s automatic. It’s expected.”

What has not been expected is the wide open style of play in front of Melanson. The Islanders are advocates of the bump-and-grind style. clutching, grabbing and interfering with their opponents defensively to key their explosive offensive abilities.

But, despite an excellent start in the win-loss department, they have not looked like the Islanders who won 30 of 39 playoff games the past two seasons. That might be understandable with 23 weeks of the regular season remaining, but the complacency does hurt the goaltenders.

 

[MXD]

Any explanation as to why Smith saw no duty at Canada Cup? (3rd stringer in 1981, off the team in 1984?)

Sorry if this is super obvious, and yeah, I realize Smith wasn't getting any younger in 1984, but he was perfectly fine in 83-84.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Any explanation as to why Smith saw no duty at Canada Cup? (3rd stringer in 1981, off the team in 1984?)

Sorry if this is super obvious, and yeah, I realize Smith wasn't getting any younger in 1984, but he was perfectly fine in 83-84.

Smith was the #2 in Canada Cup '81, but was hurt in practice...removing any shot of game action that he had.

I don't think he was wild about playing in these tournaments in general, so he probably didn't need a good reason not to be there...I've seen conjecture on this board about him not wanting to be at Canada Cup '84 due to mistreatment by Edmonton fans. In the interview I had just posted, he specifically calls out Edmonton fans as well.

 

[The Pale King]

Oilers and Islanders players were notoriously difficult to get into the same dressing room for those tournaments from what I've read. It's easy to imagine how a guy like Smith wouldn't have wanted a lot to do with fraternizing with those guys, especially with what we know now about some of the Oilers off-ice choices.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

It's quite a stretch. Appears to be a decent minor league. But it's a decent minor league in a split-league situation in the 1920's, it's upside is only so great.

That Pittsburgh team made it quite lopsided by ransacking Canadian amateurs (as it was stated that "despite how much the United States plays hockey, they can't develop any players of ability").

That Pittsburgh Yellow Jackets team had 9 NHLers playing regularly for them that year.

Unicorns had barely 2.
Maple had 0
Cleveland had 2
Duluth had 3
Arrowheads had 3
Rangers had 1
Fort Pitt had 5
Minneapolis had 3
New York had 0
St. Paul had 1

Yellow Jackets swept both playoff series to win the championship. I'll assume that Worters played that and won it. But the third (?) best league, a very uneven league, in 1925...? That's not really the level.

This is like a borderline tautological argument. Pittsburgh had NHLers because it was awarded an expansion team and they built it off of the existing Yellow Jackets roster. Almost none of them had previous NHL experience. So what makes them "NHLers" exactly, any more than any expansion team in history had a roster stocked with NHLers?

Looks to me like only three of the 1925-26 Pittsburgh Pirates had a relevant NHL career outside of Pittsburgh: Lionel Conacher, Baldy Cotton, and Roy Worters. Maybe Harold Darragh too, maybe.

Leading scorer Hib Milks scored 7 points in 64 games for other teams as a 32 and 33 year old
Second leading scorer Duke McCurry never played for another NHL team
Third-leading scorer Harold Darragh scored 24 points in 91 games outside of Pittsburgh as a 28-30 year old
Lionel Conacher was #4
Fifth-leading scorer Rodger Smith never played for another NHL team
Baldy Cotton was #6
#7 Herb Drury never played for another NHL team
#8 Tex White had 3 points in 10 games with the Americans

Coach Odie Cleghorn never coached for another NHL team other than Pittsburgh.

The Worters arguments in this thread don't even seem remotely fair to me. He gets dinged for playing in the minor leagues because it was so much weaker than the NHL, and then we still somehow think his rosters are "comparable" to actual NHL teams even though they are obviously still stocked with some of those same minor league guys? People are focusing on the defensive play in 1929 against the Rangers as if Worters' performance shouldn't count, and then just absolutely handwaving away the obvious defensive deficiencies in other playoff years while playing for a Pittsburgh team that finished 9th or worse in the league in GA four times in the six year franchise history?

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I think playoffs are a big argument for both Smith and Parent. Smith wasn't ever really the clear #1 in the regular season, but the dynasty adds something to his legacy as he was definitely the go-to guy in the playoffs. And Parent, well, that two year peak continued in the playoffs. I think a lot of my decision on where to rank the two of them is going to be how I feel about they playoffs at the end of this week.

He was the go-to guy in the playoffs for the dynasty, sure, but not for the rest of his career.

The only postseasons that Billy Smith played more than 55% of his team's playoff minutes were 1977 and the Drive for Five. Outside of that, he platooned as he normally did, and in some seasons he mostly watched Resch or Hrudey do their thing.

And it's not even obvious that the team used him disproportionately in their most important games. We already talked about elimination games earlier, let's see how Smith compares to the guys he was playing with:

New York Islanders, 1972-73 to 1988-89, Playoff Games Where the Team Could be Eliminated:

Goalie	GP	W	L	SA	SV	MIN	SV%	GAA
Resch	14​	9​	5​	433​	405​	848​	0.935​	1.98​
Hrudey	10​	6​	4​	349​	321​	666​	0.920​	2.52​
Smith	8​	7​	0​	231​	214​	455​	0.926​	2.24​
Melanson	1​	0​	1​	14​	12​	39​	0.857​	3.05​
Total w/o Smith	25​	15​	10​	796​	738​	1554​	0.927​	2.24​

Two points:

1. I laughed when I added up the totals, because like pretty much every stat ever, Smith does basically just as well as his goalie teammates. I keep trying to find evidence that he stands out against his platoon partners, and yet he almost never does.

2. This means that 24 out of 32 times in his career (75% of the time), Billy Smith's coach looked down the bench and, with the team's entire season on the line, thought to himself, "You know what, this other guy gives us a better chance of winning tonight." Nobody else in this round is even remotely close to that, and it's not exactly what we would expect to see for one of the allegedly best money goalies in history.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Pittsburgh had NHLers because it was awarded an expansion team and they built it off of the existing Yellow Jackets roster. Almost none of them had previous NHL experience. So what makes them "NHLers" exactly, any more than any expansion team in history had a roster stocked with NHLers?

Looks to me like only three of the 1925-26 Pittsburgh Pirates had a relevant NHL career outside of Pittsburgh: Lionel Conacher, Baldy Cotton, and Roy Worters. Maybe Harold Darragh too, maybe.

I didn't know they had already been awarded an expansion franchise. And my query was simple: 1925 AHA AND "has played NHL". I took a quick look through to see if anything looked terribly off (like 8 of the players played 6 NHL games or something). Nothing alarming vs. the field popped.

I'm not sure exactly what to concede here, but I'm willing haha

 

[Michael Farkas]

I keep trying to find evidence that he stands out against his platoon partners, and yet he almost never does.

I will say, for the record, that I have Resch in my top 40. So it's not exactly the "easiest" competition from that perspective. If games kept going to a Rollie Melanson type, then that'd be a little more alarming. Resch is surprisingly good.

Hrudey didn't make my list, but he was effectively the top goalie chosen in 1980 and had a lot of success leading up to his NHL career. Considered a top prospect. But yeah, I don't know how to help Smith on paper, to be honest...there's basically just end result and video.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I didn't know they had already been awarded an expansion franchise. And my query was simple: 1925 AHA AND "has played NHL". I took a quick look through to see if anything looked terribly off (like 8 of the players played 6 NHL games or something). Nothing alarming vs. the field popped.

I'm not sure exactly what to concede here, but I'm willing haha

All I'm saying is that if you play on a minor league team that effectively gets converted to an NHL team because the new team owner also gets approved for an expansion franchise (as Worters did in Pittsburgh), then the signal of "played in the NHL" is much less clear for evaluating the quality of those minor leaguers than it would be if each player was individually scouted and plucked out by NHL teams.

 

[MXD]

... I don't want to be Negative MXD, but at this rate we'll vote in Johnny Bower and Clint Benedict by default.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Bower is a great choice here. Benedict doesn't belong now for me.

I think we passed the best point for Price and Vasilevskiy already, I think they're absolute locks for the top of the ballot here.

Working on video for Parent now, who I think he is a contender this round.

 

[jigglysquishy]

... I don't want to be Negative MXD, but at this rate we'll vote in Johnny Bower and Clint Benedict by default.

I've got Vasilevskiy and Bower as my top 2. Bower came across extraordinarily well in the Cup papers. He doesn't have the AS voting, it's really the biggest knock on him.

I gotta say, that he goes toe to toe with dynasty Habs and Plante in 1959 and 1960 and comes out looking like a star is big for me.

He was a powerhouse in the AHL, three times being the league MVP.

I have Benedict midway in my ballot. I definitely think he's the best available goalie that played pre-Bower.

 

[MXD]

I've got Vasilevskiy and Bower as my top 2. Bower came across extraordinarily well in the Cup papers. He doesn't have the AS voting, it's really the biggest knock on him.

I gotta say, that he goes toe to toe with dynasty Habs and Plante in 1959 and 1960 and comes out looking like a star is big for me.

He was a powerhouse in the AHL, three times being the league MVP.

I have Benedict midway in my ballot. I definitely think he's the best available goalie that played pre-Bower.

I mean, "By Default" = without much discussion, and because cracks are showing for other candidates.

Lots of discussion on Vasilevskiy. Not nearly critical enough, but there's discussion.

My point was mostly that last posts were "Let's show up evidence of cracks for Worters and Smith". Which is... fair. I personally had doubts WRT Worters vs. Benedict, but it seems like a case of the canon being right all along.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I mean, "By Default" = without much discussion, and because cracks are showing for other candidates.

Lots of discussion on Vasilevskiy. Not nearly critical enough, but there's discussion.

My point was mostly that last posts were "Let's show up evidence of cracks for Worters and Smith". Which is... fair. I personally had doubts WRT Worters vs. Benedict, but it seems like a case of the canon being right all along.

I read through 33 game reports. Usually two newspapers per game. Outside his poor rebound control there's a lot to like.

We've talked about his unusual journey to the NHL. He was stuck behind HoF goalies and weird contract hangups. He was the best goalie in the AHL, usually by significant margins. Then comes to the NHL and is the best Leaf in back to back finals losses to a dynasty. And then backstops his own dynasty.

If anyone has Bower dissent I'm all ears.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

He was the go-to guy in the playoffs for the dynasty, sure, but not for the rest of his career.

The only postseasons that Billy Smith played more than 55% of his team's playoff minutes were 1977 and the Drive for Five. Outside of that, he platooned as he normally did, and in some seasons he mostly watched Resch or Hrudey do their thing.

And it's not even obvious that the team used him disproportionately in their most important games. We already talked about elimination games earlier, let's see how Smith compares to the guys he was playing with:

New York Islanders, 1972-73 to 1988-89, Playoff Games Where the Team Could be Eliminated:

Goalie	GP	W	L	SA	SV	MIN	SV%	GAA
Resch	14​	9​	5​	433​	405​	848​	0.935​	1.98​
Hrudey	10​	6​	4​	349​	321​	666​	0.920​	2.52​
Smith	8​	7​	0​	231​	214​	455​	0.926​	2.24​
Melanson	1​	0​	1​	14​	12​	39​	0.857​	3.05​
Total w/o Smith	25​	15​	10​	796​	738​	1554​	0.927​	2.24​

Two points:

1. I laughed when I added up the totals, because like pretty much every stat ever, Smith does basically just as well as his goalie teammates. I keep trying to find evidence that he stands out against his platoon partners, and yet he almost never does.

2. This means that 24 out of 32 times in his career (75% of the time), Billy Smith's coach looked down the bench and, with the team's entire season on the line, thought to himself, "You know what, this other guy gives us a better chance of winning tonight." Nobody else in this round is even remotely close to that, and it's not exactly what we would expect to see for one of the allegedly best money goalies in history.

What's the distribution of those elimination games cross the time period you've chosen? Just trying to get a sense of how they line with pre/post "prime."

 

[jigglysquishy]

Bernie Parent in the Stanley Cup Finals

1974 Finals
Boston beats Philadelphia 3-2
Shots: Flyers 28 Bruins 31
Flyers 0 Bruins 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 8, 1974

It was a sluggish, boring affair for most of the night. And when Bobby Orr finally slapper a screen shot past Flyer goaltender Bernie Parent the familiar complaints about officiating surfaced.
The man who had spent the night trying to see through a Bruin screen, Bernie Parent, agreed later none of the Boston goals had gone in cleanly. "All three shots were screen," said Parent, but he promised that the next match would be more physical.
With Jim Watson expelled from the match early in the second period, the result of joining in an Ed Van Impe-Wayne Cashman duel, PArent was left with just three regular defencemen in front of him for seven minutes.

Philadelphia wins 3-2 in OT
Shots: Flyers 30 Bruins 39
Flyers 1 Bruins 1
1st star: Bobby Clarke (OT winner) 2nd: Bobby Orr 3rd: Ken Hodge

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 10, 1974

Bruins' best scoring chance of the period. Cashman stickhandled out of the corner and fed Esposito in front of the net, but Parent made the save. The Flyers, by now, were being widely outplayed.
It was a dull game, saved by the suspense of overtime, plus the phenomenal goaltending in the extra innings of both Gilbert and Bernie Parent.

Flyers win 4-1
Shots: Flyers 27 Bruins 25
Flyers 2 Bruins 1

Beaver Country Times · ‎May 13, 1974

Coach Bep Guidolin complained that only six of his Bruins "gave us a second effort" but he singled out Wayne Cashman and Gregg Sheppard as two who played fine games.
Flyers goalie Bernie Parent was called upon to make few tough saves after the first 10 minutes of the game as Philadelphia effectively muzzled the Bruins' scoring punch and eliminated Boston's power play as an effective weapon. Boston's star defenceman Bobby Orr added that "the Flyers are working harder than we are. They are hungrier than we are. We just don't seem to be grabbing for it. We're not skating and our power play has been useless."

Flyers win 4-2
Shots: Flyers 31 Bruins 30
Flyers 3 Bruins 1
TV 3 stars: 1st: Ed Van Impe 2nd Bobby Orr 3rd: Bill Barber
Newspaper 3 stars: 1st: Bill Barber 2nd Gregg Sheppard 3rd: Bernie Parent

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 15, 1974

Bruins played a helluva game, Bernie Parent was difference.
It was unfortunate for Boston that while their young goaltender, Gilles Gilbert, was great, Bernie Parent was sensational, at least most of the time.
There were a lot of hockey people who thought Parent was through after his unsatisfactory year last season when he jumped to the WHA. But on the performance of this season and the playoffs, he reigns today as the unchallenged king of goaltenders.
Parent gives the lion's share of the credit for making him the top-flight goaltender he's become to Jacques Plante, when the two were playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Parent's strongest point is his consistency. He seldon lets in a blooper or any kind of an easy shot, for that matter, the way Tony Esposito is inclined to do. "That's due to the balance I learned from Plante," he explained. "Of course. It helps when you're on a team that backcheck like ours does. That's the edge we have on Boston. All our lines are strong and our defencemen are hard workers. Really, the only superstar we have is Bobby Clarke. The Bruins usually have to depend too much on Esposito and Orr."

Bruins win 5-1
Shots: Flyers 27 Bruins 38
Flyers 3 Bruins 2

Ottawa Citizen · ‎May 17, 1974

There's no hockey game I can remember where a single individual so dominated the fortunes of a team or an outcome [referring to Bobby Orr and his 3 points]. Had anybody but Bernie Parent been in the Flyers' nets, it would have turned into an even more horrendous nightmare than it became for the Philadelphia upstarts. Parent was simply magnificent.

The Victoria Advocate · ‎May 17, 1974

The Bruins were frustrated by Philadelphia goalie Bernie Parent, despite outshooting the Flyers 17-8 in the first period.

Flyers win 1-0
Shots: Flyers 26 Bruins 30
Flyers 4 Bruins 2

The Journal · ‎May 20, 1974

Bernie Parent was superb in the nets for Flyers as he turned back 30 Boston shots for his second playoff shutout. He was honored with the NHL's Conn Smythe award as the Most Valuable Player of the playoffs.
Parent played 1,042 minutes in 17 playoff games, allowed 35 goals and posted a GAA of 2.01
Bruins coach Ben Guidelon said "They kept coming and coming. Parent was great."

Very strong series for Parent. Bobby Orr gets immense praise throughout too. Esposito not that praised. Clarke and Barber get lots of praise for the Flyers, but really, it's consistently referred to as a whole-team hustle that won them the Cup. The tidbit about Parent and Plante is neat to read.



1975 Finals
Flyers win 4-1
Shots: Flyers 21 Sabres 28
Flyers 1 Sabres 0

The Journal · ‎May 16, 1975

Parent key to Flyers' win
17,077 voices rose in unison. "Ber-nee! Ber-nee!" they chanted in exultation of Bernie Parent.
Hard work - Parent's hard work - closed the door and the goal on the Buffalo Sabres.
Parent pulled all the defensive stops. Shot after shot rocketed towards his goal. Leg save, stick save, glove save.. and the Sabres were stopped. Thanks to Parent, Buffo hadn't scored.

Flyers win 2-1
Shots: Flyers 24 Sabres 19
Flyers 2 Sabres 0

St. Joseph Gazette · ‎May 19, 1975

Philadelphia almost checked the Sabres out of the building and formed a protective screen around Bernie Parent that even Buffalo's potent offense couldn't penetrate. Parent... didn't have to resort to the acrobatics that featured in his first-game victory.

The Leader-Post · ‎May 19, 1975

Parent has been outstanding in the best-of-seven series, so have Clarke, Rich MacLeish, Ross Lonsberry and a number of other Flyers.
Craig Ramsay of the Sabres. "Then we start getting fancy and stop shooting. In that way maybe Bernie Parent has gotten to us a little. But we've scored on him before. It's just a matter of time."

Sabres win 5-4 in OT. Lots of talk about fog. Game was stopped 14(!) times to clear the fog in the arena.
Shots: Flyers 33 Sabres 46
Flyers 2 Sabres 1

The Leader-Post · ‎May 21, 1975

It was the fog that caused Philadelphia goalie Bernie Parent trouble on the game-winning goal.
"I didn't see the puck until it was on Robert's stick, "Parent said. "I couldn't follow it coming in from the red line."

Sabres win 4-2
Shots: Flyers 25 Sabres 26
Flyers 2 Sabres 2

The Leader-Post · ‎May 23, 1975

At one stage, the Sabres had an 8-1 edge in shots, but could not get the puck by Bernie Parent.

Flyers win 5-1. Sounds like a completely dominant performance by the Flyers.
Shots: Flyers 26 Sabres 24
Flyers 3 Sabres 2

St. Joseph Gazette · ‎May 26, 1975

Bernie Parent frustrated them at every turn

Flyers win 2-0
Shots: Flyers 31 Sabres 32
Flyers 4 Sabres 2

The Leader-Post · ‎May 28, 1975

While Flyers goalie Bernie Parent was receiving accolades for winning his second consecutive Conny Smythe Trophy, Flyers coach Fred Shero took time out to laud Clarke who he calls "the greatest player in the game for helping his team." "He's the greatest leader I've ever seen in sports," said Shero. "He'd do anything to help a player. He'll work harder than anyone. I know for a fact he's given away 10 points. He'd get 50 goals in this league if he wanted to float like some players but you've got to look at both ends and do your job. Right?"
The Flyers won the fifth game at home 5-1 with Parent taking most of the spotlight as he did Tuesday in recording his fourth shutout of the playoff season, tying a record.

The Day · ‎May 28, 1975

While the Philadelphia Flyers called goalie Bernie Parent the difference in their second consecutive Stanley Cup triumph, the greying 30-year-old netminder called a year of experience the factor that brought him and the Flyers their well-deserved victory. "Last year, we were in the clouds when we won," said Parent. "This year, it was different. We knew what we were doing. We proved to ourselves that it was no fluke that we were the champs." The major reason was Parent, who exceptional ability stymied the Sabres time and again, as it has to many teams in the past.
"Tonight, through the playoffs and the whole season, Bernie proved he's the best goalie in the world," marvelled Philadelphia coach Fred Shero. "He has no nerves. He was super tonight, sure. But I imagine he has played better."
Parent was there with a flashing skate, a dashing stick in recording his fourth shutout of post-season play.

Two series. Two series filled with Parent praise. Obviously a lot to like with back to back Conn Smythes. Team, journalist and coach Shero praise him immensely. He's repeatedly referred to as the clear-cut best goalie in the world.