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Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
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You're the first one to bring this up, and that isn't meant as a compliment.
HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4
- Thread starter Dr John Carlson
- Start date
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- Sep 27, 2005
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MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 52,116
- 18,097
Well, regarding Roy vs Cechmanek, there's this repeatability factor that one has and that the other absolutely doesn't have.
If Cechmanek would've results similar to Roy, while looking like Cechmanek, for 16 seasons :
- That would make him roughly similar to Roy
- That would make him not Cechmanek, because of course the actual Cechmanek wouldn't have achieved that
Meanwhile, there's very obvious evidence that Roy Worters teams were sometimes able to punch well above what should be their weight, judging by the composition of those teams. Also, in a decade where the teams were exchanging Stanley Cups, it's just... odd that what was probably the best on the long run (it's between them and the Maple Leafs) managed to underperform.
I'm not saying this is solely on Thompson -- if it was, I wouldn't have ranked him in my list at all, the same way I didn't rank Dan Cloutier -- but the inference that Thompson probably wasn't the best of his era or even the second best seems justified. And I also think there should be a gap between Worters and Gardiner, as Worters wasn't necessarily the most consistent on a season-to-season basis.
Like, you can draw the inference that Carey Price was the best goaltender in the World between 2011 and 2016 or so, despite Price not having super signficant team results, because that wasn't a team that should be REASONABLY expected to achieve those significant results, and that his situation left him a bit more exposed than, say, Jonathan Quick (who is otherwise a very good netminder -- I'm obviously not claiming Quick rode the coattails of his team). But Thompson... No. And it's not pure cup counting either : I don't think I ranked Lorne Chabot and I didn't rank Alec Connel super high (certainly lower than Thompson), but they managed, despite being put in generally less favourable settings than Thompson. I didn't rank Andy Aitkenhead and it wasn't because I was afraid of making typos. I don't plan on advocating for any of them either, save maybe for Connell when we'll be wondering whether he's better than.. eh.. Arturs Irbe? Cory Schneider?
There's also this difference between 30/32 and 8/10 teams leagues. Repeatability and all.
Last edited:
Good performer? Sure. I think amazing is a bridge too far.
Here are some post-2005-06 contemporaries in elimination games.
Post-Lockout Goalies (full career) in Elimination Games (5 Elim. GP)
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Goaltender[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]SO[/TD]
[TD]SVS[/TD]
[TD]SV %[/TD]
[TD]GA[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ben Bishop[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
157
[/TD][TD]
0.963
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1.11
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaroslav Halak[/TD]
[TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
318
[/TD][TD]
0.949
[/TD][TD]
17
[/TD][TD]
1.78
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dwayne Roloson[/TD]
[TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
226
[/TD][TD]
0.942
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
1.76
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Craig Anderson[/TD]
[TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
258
[/TD][TD]
0.938
[/TD][TD]
17
[/TD][TD]
2.03
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cristobal Huet[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
165
[/TD][TD]
0.938
[/TD][TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
2.12
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tim Thomas[/TD]
[TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
368
[/TD][TD]
0.936
[/TD][TD]
25
[/TD][TD]
2.00
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cam Ward[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
159
[/TD][TD]
0.935
[/TD][TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
1.75
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Henrik Lundqvist[/TD]
[TD]
27
[/TD][TD]
16
[/TD][TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
807
[/TD][TD]
0.935
[/TD][TD]
56
[/TD][TD]
2.03
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Martin Jones[/TD]
[TD]
10
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
299
[/TD][TD]
0.934
[/TD][TD]
21
[/TD][TD]
1.95
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jimmy Howard[/TD]
[TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
326
[/TD][TD]
0.934
[/TD][TD]
23
[/TD][TD]
2.09
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jonathan Quick[/TD]
[TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
450
[/TD][TD]
0.932
[/TD][TD]
33
[/TD][TD]
2.13
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matt Murray[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
122
[/TD][TD]
0.931
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
1.64
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Braden Holtby[/TD]
[TD]
16
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
417
[/TD][TD]
0.931
[/TD][TD]
31
[/TD][TD]
1.85
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Petr Mrazek[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
120
[/TD][TD]
0.930
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
1.66
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Carey Price[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
492
[/TD][TD]
0.928
[/TD][TD]
38
[/TD][TD]
2.08
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jordan Binnington[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
126
[/TD][TD]
0.927
[/TD][TD]
10
[/TD][TD]
2.05
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Igor Shesterkin[/TD]
[TD]
10
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
315
[/TD][TD]
0.927
[/TD][TD]
25
[/TD][TD]
2.51
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jeremy Swayman[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
162
[/TD][TD]
0.926
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
2.13
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jake Oettinger[/TD]
[TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
239
[/TD][TD]
0.926
[/TD][TD]
19
[/TD][TD]
2.30
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Miikka Kiprusoff[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
180
[/TD][TD]
0.923
[/TD][TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
2.16
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corey Crawford[/TD]
[TD]
20
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
599
[/TD][TD]
0.922
[/TD][TD]
51
[/TD][TD]
2.40
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Smith[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
244
[/TD][TD]
0.921
[/TD][TD]
21
[/TD][TD]
2.60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Semyon Varlamov[/TD]
[TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
367
[/TD][TD]
0.920
[/TD][TD]
32
[/TD][TD]
2.36
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roberto Luongo[/TD]
[TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
254
[/TD][TD]
0.920
[/TD][TD]
22
[/TD][TD]
2.47
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Michal Neuvirth[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
185
[/TD][TD]
0.920
[/TD][TD]
16
[/TD][TD]
2.71
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Martin Brodeur[/TD]
[TD]
27
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
625
[/TD][TD]
0.919
[/TD][TD]
55
[/TD][TD]
1.97
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andrei Vasilevskiy[/TD]
[TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
318
[/TD][TD]
0.919
[/TD][TD]
28
[/TD][TD]
2.28
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jose Theodore[/TD]
[TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
319
[/TD][TD]
0.919
[/TD][TD]
28
[/TD][TD]
2.56
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pekka Rinne[/TD]
[TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
359
[/TD][TD]
0.918
[/TD][TD]
32
[/TD][TD]
2.44
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Antti Niemi[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
166
[/TD][TD]
0.917
[/TD][TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
2.12
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Martin Biron[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
152
[/TD][TD]
0.916
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
2.76
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Evgeni Nabokov[/TD]
[TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
300
[/TD][TD]
0.915
[/TD][TD]
28
[/TD][TD]
2.11
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ilya Bryzgalov[/TD]
[TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
205
[/TD][TD]
0.915
[/TD][TD]
19
[/TD][TD]
2.60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marc-Andre Fleury[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
444
[/TD][TD]
0.914
[/TD][TD]
42
[/TD][TD]
2.36
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brian Boucher[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
147
[/TD][TD]
0.913
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
2.29
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean-Sebastien Giguere[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
153
[/TD][TD]
0.911
[/TD][TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
2.54
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cam Talbot[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
184
[/TD][TD]
0.911
[/TD][TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
2.72
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stuart Skinner[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
142
[/TD][TD]
0.910
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
2.11
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Juuse Saros[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
118
[/TD][TD]
0.908
[/TD][TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
2.46
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Michael Leighton[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
108
[/TD][TD]
0.908
[/TD][TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
2.76
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brian Elliott[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
122
[/TD][TD]
0.904
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
2.38
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jake Allen[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
52
[/TD][TD]
0.897
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
2.04
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tuukka Rask[/TD]
[TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
317
[/TD][TD]
0.896
[/TD][TD]
37
[/TD][TD]
2.73
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chris Osgood[/TD]
[TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
341
[/TD][TD]
0.890
[/TD][TD]
42
[/TD][TD]
2.75
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
As a playoff performer, I think Price lands below Quick (2014 facing elimination: 7-0, .947, 1.69).
Although if you're big on elimination games, here's the old-timers in whatever NHL.com calls elimination games.
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Goaltender[/TD]
[TD]Teams[/TD]
[TD]GP[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]T[/TD]
[TD]SO[/TD]
[TD]SVS[/TD]
[TD]GA[/TD]
[TD]GAA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bert Gardiner[/TD]
[TD]NYR, MTL[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
1.44
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lorne Chabot[/TD]
[TD]NYR, TOR, MTL, CHI, MMR[/TD]
[TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
26
[/TD][TD]
1.46
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilf Cude[/TD]
[TD]DET, MTL[/TD]
[TD]
8
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
1.46
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Clint Benedict[/TD]
[TD]SEN, MMR[/TD]
[TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
31
[/TD][TD]
22
[/TD][TD]
1.53
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Ross Roach[/TD]
[TD]TSP, NYR, DET[/TD]
[TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
35
[/TD][TD]
22
[/TD][TD]
1.63
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Gardiner[/TD]
[TD]CHI[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
1.67
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gerry McNeil[/TD]
[TD]MTL[/TD]
[TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
86
[/TD][TD]
17
[/TD][TD]
1.71
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Earl Robertson[/TD]
[TD]DET, NYA[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
1.71
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Henry[/TD]
[TD]NYR, BOS[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
67
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
1.79
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]George Hainsworth[/TD]
[TD]MTL, TOR[/TD]
[TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
36
[/TD][TD]
1.84
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alec Connell[/TD]
[TD]SEN, DFL, MMR[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
1.98
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roy Worters[/TD]
[TD]PIR, NYA[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
2.15
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Durnan[/TD]
[TD]MTL[/TD]
[TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
2.17
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jacques Plante[/TD]
[TD]MTL, TOR[/TD]
[TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
260
[/TD][TD]
20
[/TD][TD]
2.19
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tiny Thompson[/TD]
[TD]BOS, DET[/TD]
[TD]
15
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
9
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
39
[/TD][TD]
2.23
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turk Broda[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]
12
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
29
[/TD][TD]
2.29
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Brimsek[/TD]
[TD]BOS[/TD]
[TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
34
[/TD][TD]
2.32
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Georges Vezina[/TD]
[TD]MTL[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
50
[/TD][TD]
17
[/TD][TD]
2.34
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Kerr[/TD]
[TD]MMR, NYR[/TD]
[TD]
11
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
6
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
30
[/TD][TD]
2.50
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Karakas[/TD]
[TD]CHI[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
20
[/TD][TD]
2.53
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hap Holmes[/TD]
[TD]TAN, SMT, VIC[/TD]
[TD]
7
[/TD][TD]
4
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
18
[/TD][TD]
2.57
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hal Winkler[/TD]
[TD]EDE, BOS[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
13
[/TD][TD]
2.60
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
Benedict looks good (his era helps him a bit too,) but what exactly is an elimination game? To determine what elimination means for the early NHL we'll look at Worters (since the diminutive Worters has the smallest game log to deal with).
Game Log
Below are his elimination games (I think) as the GAA adds up to 2.15
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Date[/TD]
[TD]Opp[/TD]
[TD]DEC[/TD]
[TD]GA[/TD]
[TD]Mins[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3/23/26[/TD]
[TD]MMR[/TD]
[TD]T[/TD]
[TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3/29/28[/TD]
[TD]NYR[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]
2
[/TD][TD]
60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3/21/29[/TD]
[TD]NYR[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]
1
[/TD][TD]
89.83
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3/26/36[/TD]
[TD]CHI[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]
5
[/TD][TD]
60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3/31/36[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]W[/TD]
[TD]
0
[/TD][TD]
60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4/02/36[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]L[/TD]
[TD]
3
[/TD][TD]
60
[/TD][/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2-3-1[/TD]
[TD]
14
[/TD][TD]
389.83
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
So Game 2 of a 2-game total goals series counts. As a result, 1936 Worters getting bludgeoned in a 5-4 loss was a game loss, but a series win, as his team advanced. 1928 Worters earning a 4-2 win was a series loss, because the Rangers won Game 1 over Roy's Pirates 4-0. The last 2 games against the Leafs fit the standard definition (lose and go home).
All that said, I'm low on Worters.
Another way the 2 game total goals series differed from standard Best of X playoff hockey is how defensively teams played: Border Cities Star, March 22 1929
So while they say both goalies were performing "miracles" to keep the score low, they also note that "neither team would take a chance. From the very start the clubs played defensive hockey, using only one man or two men on scoring efforts and having every puck-carrier get back the minute he lost possession."
THN was effusive in their Top 100 that Worters had 1 GA and lost a series, but I'd be a little more circumspect in my praise, considering the fact that both goalies were facing 1 and 2 man attacks,
For the lazy man's newspaper search (my way), click here.
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In 80 goaltender games played (we'll combine Chabot with Lester Patrick for the NYR/MMR Finals game, which was the only substitution and 1-GA in total), here's the distribution of GA by game.
All goalies, 1926-29 playoffs
0 GA: 21
1 GA: 32
2 GA: 12
3 GA: 7
4 GA: 7
5 GA: 0
6 GA: 1
Teams dedicated themselves to low-event hockey for the playoffs, going all-in on goal prevention.
Here's Worters' results:
0 GA: 1/21
1 GA: 1
2 GA: 1
3 GA: 2
4 GA: 1
He had 3 of the NHL's 15 3-or-more-GA games. Given the fact that his two best games come against a Rangers team that battened down the hatches to the extreme, he doesn't come off as a great playoff performer.
His 2.00 GAA looks great, but given the type of hockey played, Worters was having some bad playoff games.
Over this span Tiny Thompson has a 0.60 and Maroons-era, and Benedict has a 0.97. Only Hugh Lehman and Dolly Dolson have a worse playoff GAA.
All goalies, 1926-29 playoffs
0 GA: 21
1 GA: 32
2 GA: 12
3 GA: 7
4 GA: 7
5 GA: 0
6 GA: 1
Teams dedicated themselves to low-event hockey for the playoffs, going all-in on goal prevention.
Here's Worters' results:
0 GA: 1/21
1 GA: 1
2 GA: 1
3 GA: 2
4 GA: 1
He had 3 of the NHL's 15 3-or-more-GA games. Given the fact that his two best games come against a Rangers team that battened down the hatches to the extreme, he doesn't come off as a great playoff performer.
His 2.00 GAA looks great, but given the type of hockey played, Worters was having some bad playoff games.
Over this span Tiny Thompson has a 0.60 and Maroons-era, and Benedict has a 0.97. Only Hugh Lehman and Dolly Dolson have a worse playoff GAA.
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 52,116
- 18,097
The flipside to this is I don't see how it's relevant to punish Worters for sub-par playoffs when he's the only reason why they made it there in the first place.
The Pale King
Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
This is a general point, not about any goalie specifically, but looking at elimination game stats requires additional context.
If a goalie has a poor game 5 and 6 and lets a team that was down 3 games to 1 back into a series, how much credit do we want to give them for a good/great seventh game that arguably shouldn't have happened in the first place? Two extra games of wear on your skaters, days that could have been spent travelling home and on prepping for your next opponent etc.
It's similar to what was discussed in the first round, with Roy being shown to have given up a number of late tying regulation goals in his 1993 run, after which he was lights out in the overtime periods.
Of course it's better to be a solid performer in those elimination games than not, but how you get there is important too. Sorry if that is stating the obvious.
If a goalie has a poor game 5 and 6 and lets a team that was down 3 games to 1 back into a series, how much credit do we want to give them for a good/great seventh game that arguably shouldn't have happened in the first place? Two extra games of wear on your skaters, days that could have been spent travelling home and on prepping for your next opponent etc.
It's similar to what was discussed in the first round, with Roy being shown to have given up a number of late tying regulation goals in his 1993 run, after which he was lights out in the overtime periods.
Of course it's better to be a solid performer in those elimination games than not, but how you get there is important too. Sorry if that is stating the obvious.
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Re: blogo'mike's posts...I remain open, but there's a lot of things pointing to Worters being one of those classic (maybe the first?) acrobatic bad-team goalies. And it's wonderful and fun and entertaining all regular season long. And then when he faces concentrated high-end competition or a team that can pre-scout or whatever, then it comes to an end.
I look at him as like an Esposito or Vachon type. Fun. Can drag a poor team to...something...but can you really count them to reliably win you a series? Even against comparable competition.
Vachon was probably the "MVP goalie" of the 70's...but what he was better than Dryden or Parent (definitely not, I can answer that one) or was he greater than those two? You guys can answer that one.
How much support does Worters really have as best of his era? Certainly not over Gardiner and that gap feels pretty large in my readings. Do folks here feel differently on that (or any) front?
I look at him as like an Esposito or Vachon type. Fun. Can drag a poor team to...something...but can you really count them to reliably win you a series? Even against comparable competition.
Vachon was probably the "MVP goalie" of the 70's...but what he was better than Dryden or Parent (definitely not, I can answer that one) or was he greater than those two? You guys can answer that one.
How much support does Worters really have as best of his era? Certainly not over Gardiner and that gap feels pretty large in my readings. Do folks here feel differently on that (or any) front?
I just feel like you were exagerating in some of your comments in relation to Price.
True he did struggle a bit at age 21 and 22 - but that's really young for a goalie. Is that all that relevent to his overall resume? I don't think it is.
You also mentionned Halak, as if it's a bad thing that Price got outplayed by Halak. As a different poster pointed out - Halak in the 2010 playoffs probably would have outplayed peak Hasek/Roy - it was just an insane stretch, and a bit of a fluke, so not sure that really makes Price look bad.
In regards to any Hasek/Price comparison - I certainly in no way imply they are comparable. But what is comparable is looking at team impact of when Habs lost Price, to when Buffalo lost Hasek, as there's a lot of similarities in those 2 situations. The impact on the habs was much greater. It just re-enforces how badly the Hab teams were in Price's prime - and how we need to account for that when comparing Price to some of his peers.
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 52,116
- 18,097
By my interpretation, not really, and the gap between him and Gardiner is non-negligible, a bit like the gap in perception between Ed Belfour and Patrick Roy is non-negligible.
But I don't think we should necessarily compound a collective mistake with another mistake.
Thanks for posting all of this - this is great.
I feel as though I started a bit of thing by throwing up elimination game stats for Price, or claiming he's an "amazing" playoff performer. I made those comments in response to a post implying Price repeatedly sucked in the playoffs, and just wanted to counter that with some obvious strengths to show his playoff resume is quite strong. I wasn't necessarily implying his playoff resume stands out vs others up for vote, just wanted to say it was quite strong.
Is Carey Price's playoff resume at an all-time strong level? Is he even #1 in this group for overall playoff resume? Probably not. I do rank his 2021 playoff run very, very high though.
With Price and playoffs, he didn't have the opportunity to play behind good teams. So when you compare his stats to other names high on the list with many games (Quick, Lundqvist, Thomas to name a few), you have to take that into consideration too. But yes - some of those guys also have excellent playoff records.
I guess it would depend entirely on the specific circumstances.
Looking no further than Bobrosvky in 2024. He was fantastic in allowing Florida to take a series lead, and deserves full credit for that. But he was also horrible mid-series. Does that even matter, considering he bounced back with a very solid game 7 to win cup? No - I don't think it does, they won the cup. So he gets a pass.
If it's a situation where instead of it being the finals - something similar happens in round 1 or 2, and that team who had to go win game 7 then is eliminated the next round, possibly due to extra wear & tear - maybe you forgive that less.
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 49,171
- 30,175
Price was the best goal tender in the world in 2015 and 2016. That reputation followed him for awhile, but the performance didn't match that reputation. A lot of the talk was "oh but look at how bad the team in front of him was." And it was, but why is that a mark in his favor for 15 and then an excuse after that?
He has by far the weakest resume with Vezina rankings and post season all-stars of this group - at least the modern guys. Injuries robbed him of one season but beyond that it's not like he's a massive what if.
Regarding the postseason - for all the 2021 love he got absolutely lit up by the Bolts in the Finals. That team was extremely out-talented to be fair but that was also the most lopsided finals series probably since the 90s and it's not like he made it competitive.
Idk - the narrative around him has just always been something that annoyed me. He was the one real bright spot (along with Subban) on a team with a massive fan base so it just feels like his reputation had to be boosted to appease them.
Taking him over Vasi is frankly insane to me, but I know Vasi has a lot of detractors because he loosened his chest protector before the handshake line.
He has by far the weakest resume with Vezina rankings and post season all-stars of this group - at least the modern guys. Injuries robbed him of one season but beyond that it's not like he's a massive what if.
Regarding the postseason - for all the 2021 love he got absolutely lit up by the Bolts in the Finals. That team was extremely out-talented to be fair but that was also the most lopsided finals series probably since the 90s and it's not like he made it competitive.
Idk - the narrative around him has just always been something that annoyed me. He was the one real bright spot (along with Subban) on a team with a massive fan base so it just feels like his reputation had to be boosted to appease them.
Taking him over Vasi is frankly insane to me, but I know Vasi has a lot of detractors because he loosened his chest protector before the handshake line.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I'm sorry, but just gonna keep going after this every time it comes up. It's not a narrative. Guys that have a fling with greatness like Giguere, that's a narrative. Guys that played in the minors for 50 years and then had a fun playoff run, that's a narrative.
Carey Price is not a "narrative". The media doesn't even like him versus the expectation here (which is that there's some big media circus for him). Year by year voting...
Managers | Media
9th | N/A
5th | 4th
10th | 11th
4th | 4th
1st | 1st
3rd | 5th
7th | 3rd
N/A | 8th
They're not pumping his tires.
Experts are though, which I detailed this morning: HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4
I had Price and Vasilevskiy in my top 10, so I have no beef with Vasy over Price. That's not my stance, but it was fairly close.
But there's no "narrative", there's no storyline. It is people that know how to evaluate goaltenders and they universally agree that this is basically as good as it gets.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
How many coach's polls do we have from the 70s and 80s for Parent and Smith? It would be nice to contextualize them versus Price and Vasilevskiy, who we have the NHLPA/Athletic voting for.
I've got five from the Toronto Star, where coaches were asked anonymously who the best players were for a wide variety of attributes. These can all be found on the forum strewn about with a quick search but I'll source them here:
^ Important to note that 1971 would be before Parent's two big years. It's not clear when exactly the polling took place but Parent had been dealt to Toronto to tandem with Plante about a month before this article was published.
^ This would've been at the tail end of Parent's first big season. Smith was in his sophomore year with the hapless Isles.
^ As stated, Parent was just about to come back from a neck surgery, a year after his second Smythe and Vezina. Smith was in his 4th season as a full-time NHL goalie, and working to break through in the playoffs with NYI.
^ Parent was just about finished in the NHL at this point. Smith was a year away from backstopping the first Islanders Cup win.
^ Smith was 2 years removed from a Vezina win (under the current rules of the trophy, not the old Jennings-type of rules), 1 year removed from a 4th place finish plus a Smythe, and in the midst of his final season where he received any Vezina voting.
Are there any others from this period? Maybe one in 1981/82 that I'm unable to find?
I've got five from the Toronto Star, where coaches were asked anonymously who the best players were for a wide variety of attributes. These can all be found on the forum strewn about with a quick search but I'll source them here:
The Toronto Star - 13 March 1971 said:
^ Important to note that 1971 would be before Parent's two big years. It's not clear when exactly the polling took place but Parent had been dealt to Toronto to tandem with Plante about a month before this article was published.
The Toronto Star - 23 March 1974 said:
^ This would've been at the tail end of Parent's first big season. Smith was in his sophomore year with the hapless Isles.
The Toronto Star - 21 February 1976 said:
^ As stated, Parent was just about to come back from a neck surgery, a year after his second Smythe and Vezina. Smith was in his 4th season as a full-time NHL goalie, and working to break through in the playoffs with NYI.
The Toronto Star - 17 February 1979 said:
^ Parent was just about finished in the NHL at this point. Smith was a year away from backstopping the first Islanders Cup win.
The Toronto Star - 30 April 1984 said:
^ Smith was 2 years removed from a Vezina win (under the current rules of the trophy, not the old Jennings-type of rules), 1 year removed from a 4th place finish plus a Smythe, and in the midst of his final season where he received any Vezina voting.
Are there any others from this period? Maybe one in 1981/82 that I'm unable to find?
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Selfishly happy that Tony O appears to not win any of those and I'm happy that Dan Bouchard gets mentioned despite his team situation. I'm hopeful that the latter will be available at some point...as unlikely as that may be.
overpass
Registered User
I hope we can discuss where Bernie Parent's two year peak ranks among the all-timers. Sure, he was better outside of that peak than he is often given credit for, but his position will depend heavily on our assessment of his 73-74 and 74-75 seasons.
I don't have the numbers at my disposal right now but I believe he held four of his six playoff opponents in 74 and 75 to slightly less than half their normal goal scoring rate. Atlanta, Boston, Toronto, Buffalo. That's ridiculous goal prevention for Parent and the Flyers. And his numbers against Rangers and Islanders weren't bad either.
In the 74 playoffs, Orr, Esposito and the Bruins scored 26 goals in 6 games against Tony O and the Hawks. The same Hawks team that had allowed the fewest goals in the regular season. And then Parent and the Flyers only allowed 13 goals in 6 games to that Boston team in the finals. Half the rate of the best regular season defensive team.
Hockey-reference's adjusted GAA has Parent's 73-74 and 74-75 as top 10 all time seasons. Their GA-, which I believe is based on save percentage, has 73-74 as top 10 and 74-75 as top 50. Although these methods do have a lot of 70s seasons near the top and probably don't account for the lack of parity in the expansion era.
There is one knock I'm aware of against Parent's 73-74 season. His 47 wins that season were a league record for decades. But did you know that he got most of those wins against non playoff teams? Vs playoff teams he was 13-11-9. And he was 34-2-3 against non-playoff teams. That said, the Flyers only scored 2.5 goals/game against playoff teams in the regular season, and I don't put a lot of stock in the win stat anyway, so it doesn't really matter for me. Parent showed in the playoffs that he could shut down anyone.
Are there any competitors here with a two year RS and PO peak to put up against Parent? Maybe Vasilevsky? I was thinking about Ed Belfour's 99 and 00 but he's been selected already.
I don't have the numbers at my disposal right now but I believe he held four of his six playoff opponents in 74 and 75 to slightly less than half their normal goal scoring rate. Atlanta, Boston, Toronto, Buffalo. That's ridiculous goal prevention for Parent and the Flyers. And his numbers against Rangers and Islanders weren't bad either.
In the 74 playoffs, Orr, Esposito and the Bruins scored 26 goals in 6 games against Tony O and the Hawks. The same Hawks team that had allowed the fewest goals in the regular season. And then Parent and the Flyers only allowed 13 goals in 6 games to that Boston team in the finals. Half the rate of the best regular season defensive team.
Hockey-reference's adjusted GAA has Parent's 73-74 and 74-75 as top 10 all time seasons. Their GA-, which I believe is based on save percentage, has 73-74 as top 10 and 74-75 as top 50. Although these methods do have a lot of 70s seasons near the top and probably don't account for the lack of parity in the expansion era.
There is one knock I'm aware of against Parent's 73-74 season. His 47 wins that season were a league record for decades. But did you know that he got most of those wins against non playoff teams? Vs playoff teams he was 13-11-9. And he was 34-2-3 against non-playoff teams. That said, the Flyers only scored 2.5 goals/game against playoff teams in the regular season, and I don't put a lot of stock in the win stat anyway, so it doesn't really matter for me. Parent showed in the playoffs that he could shut down anyone.
Are there any competitors here with a two year RS and PO peak to put up against Parent? Maybe Vasilevsky? I was thinking about Ed Belfour's 99 and 00 but he's been selected already.
The Pale King
Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
For a guy who's reputation is seemingly 85% playoff-based, Billy Smith's regular season numbers sure look nice for the era.
Then he's got six really good/elite playoff runs in a row. The first one is very short, just a five game sample, but then 5 legit runs in a row.
Rare for a guy who seemingly played on the edge to also be so consistent year in, year out. Other noted "headcases" like a Hextall or even Barasso (Belfour to a lesser extent) tended to be wildly inconsistent.
What's the case for him not going very high in this round?
Then he's got six really good/elite playoff runs in a row. The first one is very short, just a five game sample, but then 5 legit runs in a row.
Rare for a guy who seemingly played on the edge to also be so consistent year in, year out. Other noted "headcases" like a Hextall or even Barasso (Belfour to a lesser extent) tended to be wildly inconsistent.
What's the case for him not going very high in this round?
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
None from me. I had right around this area originally. Not hard to see him in the 4ish area this round.
A pass in the sense he's not a choker.
No pass here, because maybe a Bernie Parent level of play would have ended the series in 4 or 5 and thus Bobrovsky isn't here yet.
Ken Dryden had an 'easy' career for winning Cups. He definitely had some soft games when he could have put his opponents away. But Dryden had maybe 3 clunkers in late series games over 3 rounds on the way to the 1973 Cup. Having 3 in 3 games is a dicier proposition for your team's chances.
There a line credited (I think) to Harry Truman that says it's a recession when your neighbour loses their job, and a depression when you lose yours.
In that vein, I wasn't as mad as others were at Roy (my #1) because for a goalie with a one goal lead, it's setback when you give up one, and potential disaster when you give up two. And Roy seemed to win a lot of those games, so...
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 52,116
- 18,097
Well, mostly played in a very favourable context. In a tandem for, essentially, his career (this may be more of a coaching consquence than personnal limitations), which, in turn, may have helped him for the playoffs. This is ... obviously good for team success, but that also distinguishes him from most other netminders that are up for voting. Glenn Resch appears to have had the upper hand when they were teammates.
It has to be said that some of Billy Smith's statistical success is due to his presence on Al Arbour's disciplined defensive structure (and for quite some time, stacked roster too.)
But I like Billy Smith a lot. He stood out in the playoffs. His team could bail him out occasionally when he let in 4 or 5, (I think he was 8-14 in 4-GA playoff games).
He could have some absolutely horrid performances, but he was often able to string together strong bounceback games.
Billy Smith was not easy to eliminate.
Amazing Stat (Just Don't Look Into It Too Closely - @overpass this probably means you)
When facing elimination, Billy Smith was 7-0 in the playoffs, with a .926 save percentage and 2.24 GAA (he was pulled from Game 5 of the 84 Finals 2 goals in, they lost 5-2).
But I like Billy Smith a lot. He stood out in the playoffs. His team could bail him out occasionally when he let in 4 or 5, (I think he was 8-14 in 4-GA playoff games).
He could have some absolutely horrid performances, but he was often able to string together strong bounceback games.
Billy Smith was not easy to eliminate.
Amazing Stat (Just Don't Look Into It Too Closely - @overpass this probably means you)
When facing elimination, Billy Smith was 7-0 in the playoffs, with a .926 save percentage and 2.24 GAA (he was pulled from Game 5 of the 84 Finals 2 goals in, they lost 5-2).
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
If nothing else, I really hope that he can finally disconnect Billy Smith and Grant Fuhr. They are multiple tiers apart. Even if Fuhr plays 75 games and Smith 52 a year, it's not that close for me.
In other random musings, I lament sometimes that players will lose an MVP because they missed a couple too many games, but meanwhile dudes will get full freight for partial seasons (like 2013) - Subban got a Norris for 42 games, Bobrovsky got a Vezina for 37 or 38, etc. They get full value out of those.
If Vasilevskiy was permitted to play just 38 games in 2018, he probably wins the Vezina.
He goes from 2.62 / .920 (full season) down to 2.23 / .929 (first 38). So, now he's sitting: 1st in wins, 1st in save pct., 2nd in GAA, 1st in shutouts (among other 38-game players) on a 27-8-2 record. Seems pretty likely his 3rd place finish because a 1. Now, we're talking about a first-team all star in 3 of his first 4 seasons as starter.
I know it's "fun with numbers" and maybe it does absolutely zero to change the perception of him, but so much of these averaging stats and trophy voting is really a nip here and a tuck there from looking very different.
In other random musings, I lament sometimes that players will lose an MVP because they missed a couple too many games, but meanwhile dudes will get full freight for partial seasons (like 2013) - Subban got a Norris for 42 games, Bobrovsky got a Vezina for 37 or 38, etc. They get full value out of those.
If Vasilevskiy was permitted to play just 38 games in 2018, he probably wins the Vezina.
He goes from 2.62 / .920 (full season) down to 2.23 / .929 (first 38). So, now he's sitting: 1st in wins, 1st in save pct., 2nd in GAA, 1st in shutouts (among other 38-game players) on a 27-8-2 record. Seems pretty likely his 3rd place finish because a 1. Now, we're talking about a first-team all star in 3 of his first 4 seasons as starter.
I know it's "fun with numbers" and maybe it does absolutely zero to change the perception of him, but so much of these averaging stats and trophy voting is really a nip here and a tuck there from looking very different.
The Pale King
Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
Without checking Dr. No's site for SRS, I wonder if it was a Bunny Laroque - Ken Dryden situation where Resch was getting all the WPG, Wash., and other cherry-picked starts or if it was more balanced. Other goalies in the project we've discussed or coming up soon have had strong backups as well (Lundqvist, for example with Talbot surpassing him in SV% in back-to-back years, Belfour getting seemingly outplayed by his backups his last year in Chicago as pointed out by I believe Contrarian Goaltender last round). Roy kind of lost his footing to Hayward for a while at the end of the 1980s there... It happens.
Resch is about as good as you get as a "career backup" guy post-expansion. I had him on my initial list at 76 (I gave him a lot of credit for that late career 7th-in-Vezina-Voting season with the 83-84 Mickey Mouse Devils). The Islanders leveraged the luxury of having two legitimate upper-end starters at a time when lots of teams didn't have one. I hesitate to hold that too much against Smith but it is the question mark admittedly with him.
Smith has some respectable seasons from a numbers perspective well before the Islanders were even an average team. Arbour obviously instilled the defensive buy-in right from the beginning. You won't find a better slate of goalie numbers from a 19 win team than the 1974 Islanders with Gerry Desjardins, Smith and a couple games of Resch. All in the .900, 3.00 ballpark for a 56 point team.
The Pale King
Go easy on those Mango Giapanes brother...
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