HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4
- Thread starter Dr John Carlson
- Start date
Very happy to see Carey Price up. I'd have loved to have seen all 3 of Price, Vasi and Lundqvist at the same time, but oh well.
I didn't get a chance to comment much last round - but I just wanted to say for Vasi, I find it incredibly hard to rate him because he's still in the midst of his career, and seems to be slowing down, and I don't know what that means yet.
Everything up to the 2021 finals is great.
His 2022 season - very good, but less so than the previous 4. Good playoffs
His 2023 season - again, decent, but not as good as that previous 4 year stretch. Disappointing playoffs
His 2024 season & playoffs - both disappointing
10 years from now - is Vasi going to a goalie who hit a sharp decline at barely age ~27, and never got it back? That's really young for a modern guy. Or is he about to bounce back, and have another ~5-7 years as a very good #1 goalie in the league, and maybe even win more accolades/remain elite?
It's hard for me to decide how high to rank him all-time, or how he compares to others, without that extra perspective.
I didn't get a chance to comment much last round - but I just wanted to say for Vasi, I find it incredibly hard to rate him because he's still in the midst of his career, and seems to be slowing down, and I don't know what that means yet.
Everything up to the 2021 finals is great.
His 2022 season - very good, but less so than the previous 4. Good playoffs
His 2023 season - again, decent, but not as good as that previous 4 year stretch. Disappointing playoffs
His 2024 season & playoffs - both disappointing
10 years from now - is Vasi going to a goalie who hit a sharp decline at barely age ~27, and never got it back? That's really young for a modern guy. Or is he about to bounce back, and have another ~5-7 years as a very good #1 goalie in the league, and maybe even win more accolades/remain elite?
It's hard for me to decide how high to rank him all-time, or how he compares to others, without that extra perspective.
Administrative question.
How are we deciding how many names are available each round? It seems like it's been pretty low in project so far. I think we started with 8, then 10, and now 11 twice. I feel as though past projects had closer to ~15 names some rounds.
Is the idea to keep it at ~10-11 the whole projec? Or go up to ~15 past a certain rank? Or is each round tabulated differently depending on how close the upcoming guys are?
Thanks for clarifying.
How are we deciding how many names are available each round? It seems like it's been pretty low in project so far. I think we started with 8, then 10, and now 11 twice. I feel as though past projects had closer to ~15 names some rounds.
Is the idea to keep it at ~10-11 the whole projec? Or go up to ~15 past a certain rank? Or is each round tabulated differently depending on how close the upcoming guys are?
Thanks for clarifying.
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
The number will steadily grow. By the end of the project, I'd imagine we will be seeing about 15 names up at once.
We don't want to flood the voting with names and let guys get lost in the shuffle, though.
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,741
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I totally expected going in this round NR'ing Vasilevskiy again, but Tiny Thompson will in all likelihood prevent this. It's probably two rounds too early for Tiny.
Other first impressions? It's time for Benedict, and first entrants Luongo and Worters look like they could sneak. Price and Smith less so.
Other first impressions? It's time for Benedict, and first entrants Luongo and Worters look like they could sneak. Price and Smith less so.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Suprised not to see Lehman yet.
Happy Luongo is up. He was outstanding on some awful Panthers teams. Narrowly lost a Vezina in 2007. Finally gets a good team and makes it to game 7 of the Cup Finals.
Remains a strong goalie into the mid 2010s.
So much of his career gets wrapped up on game 7 of the 2011 finals. If he has a strong game he's probably the Conn Smythe winner and gains a massive career boost. Instead the public opinion is that he was a playoff choker.
Happy Luongo is up. He was outstanding on some awful Panthers teams. Narrowly lost a Vezina in 2007. Finally gets a good team and makes it to game 7 of the Cup Finals.
Remains a strong goalie into the mid 2010s.
So much of his career gets wrapped up on game 7 of the 2011 finals. If he has a strong game he's probably the Conn Smythe winner and gains a massive career boost. Instead the public opinion is that he was a playoff choker.
overpass
Registered User
I'll post some quotes I've found on the old-time goalies in this round. Benedict, Worters, and Thompson.
I don't expect Worters and Thompson to make it this round, and I'm not saying they should. Just posting for the group's consideration and to help paint a fuller picture of these long-gone netminders.
Clint Benedict
Border Cities Star, Jul 26, 1926
Now that the great Georges Vezina has passed on, the outstanding stars between the posts are (Alec) Connell and Clint Benedict. It was a coincidence that both these figured in the final play-offs for the eastern title, and speaks significantly of the importance of the goaler to present-day hockey machines which, for the most part, are formulated and molded with a view to keeping scores down rather than scoring goals.
Interesting comment about the hockey machines of the mid-20s focusing on keeping goals down rather than scoring. That was certainly true of Benedict's Senators and Maroons. The writer interprets this to mean that the goalie was particularly important for those defensive teams, but you could look at it the other way and say that the goalie was well protected. We've discussed this same topic last round about Henrik Lundqvist.
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Nov 13, 1930
A recap of Benedict's long pro career upon the occasion of the end of his major league career.
Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years. He first broke into athletics by playing Canada's national game of lacrosse, at which he was a star, and came into hockey prominence with New Edinburghs, an amateur club from which came many brilliant stars for the professional game. Tall, and apparently gawky and awkward, with a shambling style of skating, Benedict possessed an eagle eye and the quickness of a cat. In the days when goalers were not allowed to drop to the ice to stop shots, Benedict was dubbed "Tumbling Clint" because he insisted on going to his knees to stop shots, and the records of those distant days indicate that he was penalized more than once for thus breaking the playing rules. Later, when it became permissible for a goaler to drop to any position he wished to stop a shot, Benedict became almost unbeatable. He and the late George Vezina were the admitted kings of the nets.
(Detailed recap of Benedict's career, teams, teammates, results).
Known as one of the game's greatest "money players," Benedict has figured in half a score of play-off series...Thus Benedict figured in play-off or world's series games in eight out of nine series from 1919-20 to 1927-28, his first series with Maroons being the only one in which he missed one or the other.
I would interpret "greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years" to indicate that others may have matched or exceeded Benedict at his peak, but none were as good for as long.
Rated with Vezina as kings of the nets by this writer.
Roy Worters
Worters had an excellent Hart voting record, with finishes of 1-2-4-5. And he also had a strong all-star voting record when you include the unofficial teams voted on by coaches of the late 20s.
It's hard for us to imagine a goalie standing only 5'3" as the best in the league, so I've found some quotes on Worters' style of play.
The Pittsburgh Press, Mar 13, 1928
Hockey fans locally give Roy Worters credit for much of the late season success which the Pittsburgh ice team has had. The Pirates may fail to land a playoff berth in the National League, but their work during the last half of the season was a big improvement over what had preceded it, and Worters was one of the big cogs in the machine.
The little goalie is a veritable hockey pygmy. He stands five feet two inches and weighs 128 pounds, the smallest man in the league, no doubt.
Worters has such small and delicate hands that he seldom catches the puck and tosses it aside like so many of the other goalies, but contents himself with batting, or pushing it away.
One of the prime requisites of a goalie is the ability to skate, although to the layman this may seem an unimportant item. A goalie who can skate possesses the skill to recover after going out a bit from his position to stop a shot. Those who can't skate are caught flat-footed on a shot at the wide-open net.
Worters is held to be the best skater among the cage guardians. He can leap in the air and let a charging player slide under him into the mesh.
The Morning Leader, Apr 27, 1929
When Western hockey fans learned that Roy Worters was the greatest net guardian in the sport they were skeptical, but here's what the Vancouver Sun writer says after seeing Worters in action:
"Roy Worters, New York Americans goalie, who, by standing very erect on his skates, can just get his head over the top of the goal-rail holding the net up, is the coolest piece of "they shall not pass" hockey mechanism that your reporter has ever seen. While it may be true that the Lions did not trouble him vastly on Friday night, the insouciant young man from Toronto makes hard clearances look simple by the very excellence of his negative motion. Worters goes to the ice for a low shot, and clears in the same motion that brings him down. Not nervously, mind you, but as though it were all thought out as the puck is about to be driven at him. He gave a truly wonderful exhibition of grace in action, of uncanny anticipation, of cool realization. Every move was a picture.
The Vancouver Sun, Dec 8, 1931
Roy Worters discusses his many stitches over the years.
Meriden Daily Journal, Dec 31, 1934
If you took a little gamecock weighing a scant 130 pounds sopping wet, put about 30 pounds of hockey paraphernilia and impedimenta on his spare frame, and then saw him turn into the outstanding goal tender in the National Hockey League, you'd be surprised.
That's just why little Roy Worters, New York Americans' goalie and king of the loops's puck stoppers is such a surprising little feller.
"Shrimp," as the boys affectionately call the 5-foot 3-inch wonder, has been hailed as head man since the unfortunate death of Charley Gardiner, goal tender of the Champion Chicago Blackhawks last season.
Two of hockey's outstanding figures have spouted to great length on the attributes of the mite--and they aren't his bosses, either.
One is the gray-thatched Les Patrick, manager and coach of the New York Rangers, rival big league hockey outfit in Gotham town.
"The perfect goalie," Les arises to remark, "must have a perfect pair of eyes, a fine sense of timing, must be quick, agile, and alert, a fine skater, and must have a great pair of hands. Roy Worters has all these attributes, and that's the reason he's the standout goalie in the league."
Col. John S. Hammond, president of the New York Rangers, is another who is on Worters' side of the fence.
"Give us Roy, and we would be leading the league," he recently remarked. "He is the best goal tender in the business, and with him in the net we wouldn't have half as many goals scored against us."
Montreal Gazette, Jan 16, 1936 - Hockey Close-Ups by Marc T. McNeil
Roy Worters continues to be the most skilful goaltender in the circuit...Particularly in the art of clearing, which he has developed to a scientific pitch, does Worters excel...In one motion he can block a shot and angle it away in neat clearance off stick, arms, chest, or skates.
Calgary Herald, Jun 11, 1969
Columnist Hal Walker on the 1969 induction of Roy Worters to the Hall of Fame. Walker had started as a sportwriter in Toronto with the Globe in 1933.
Roy was so small, only 5'1", 130 pounds, that little of him showed above the cross bar in goal, but he had cat-like reflexes, a good eye, and outstanding courage...
I asked Sweeney Schriner about Roy Worters on Wednesday and Dave said: "You know when I was reading about Roy, my first thought was why did they wait for so long to put him in the Hall of Fame? I felt he should have been in before me, because he was older (Sweeney was inducted in 1964). He was one of the greatest of goaltenders.
Schriner felt that Worters' ability in fending off pucks with the back of his glove was one of his biggest assets. "He could knock off shots with ease. He was also very good with his feet, the little stinker. I always maintained he was one of the greatest goaltenders hockey has ever known."
So Worters was a good skater for a goaltender, best in the league before Thompson. He preferred to block or deflect shots rather than catch them, and excelled at angling those shots away from the goal.
Tiny Thompson
Calgary Daily Herald, Jan 30, 1931
Recap of Thompson's Calgary hockey career in the minors, juniors, seniors. Mentions that he played some forward while in senior hockey, but Charlie Reid advised him his future was in goaltending.
I've lost the link, but another article on Thompson's early days in Calgary said that when he joined Canmore's senior team, they had an established goaltender and hadn't lost a game in three seasons, so he played defence and also some forward in his first season.
Western Canada hockey fans have doubtless read plenty about this Calgary boy in the National League. Too bad they can't see him in action with the Bruins. He's the smoothest-working bit of goal-tending machinery you ever saw. Makes 90 per cent of his saves with an active left hand. Seldom uses his pads or club to block a shot. Spears drives with a thin-covered left hand, drops the cake to the ice and whams out long, fast forward passes to his mates.
Thompson is the only goalie in eastern professional hockey who has actually taken full advantage of the openings offered through forward-passing. Charlie Gardiner of the Chicago Hawks, and George Hainsworth of the Canadiens, who are regarded as Thompson's rivals for netminding laurels, seldom flash long passes down the boards. The writer knows of only one other netminder, Hughie Lehman, once of Vancouver Maroons, who ever worked the pass play like Thompson.
"Tiny" wears a skinny pair of hockey gloves, with most of the padding removed. He's left-handed. The back of his right hand is protected by a sponge pad, about one inch thick and eight inches square. Howie Morenz of Canadiens slugged Thompson across the right hand one night not so long ago, and that prompted "Tiny" to rig up the sponge pad to guard the back of his hand.
It seems strange that a goalie could make 90% of the stops with his left hand, but I guess most shots weren't as hard or were from farther out.
Thompson was a pioneer in passing the puck as a goalie, like Hughie Lehman before him.
His pad for the back of his right hand sounds like a primitive blocker. Maybe to protect his hand when covering the puck?
Calgary Daily Herald, Apr 7, 1933
Bill Cook discusses every goalie's weakness. Says Chuck Gardiner is best and John Ross Roach is second.
Thompson described as having the best hands of any goalie, so Cook used "ankle attempts" when shooting on him.
"Gardiner has a wonderful system of timing. But he goes out of the nets, which Roach never does. Roach makes you wait until the last fraction of a second because he feints with you. The best way to beat him is from ten feet out, with a sharp drive into the small corner. The same goes for Roy Worters.
"If Gardiner comes out to meet you it means you'll have to hurry your shot. But usually he is a sucker for a feint when away from his cage. I guess I've feinted Gardiner more times than any goalie in the league.
"Goalie Hainsworth, says Bill, can't handle a chest-high puck. He's sloppy with his hands. Tiny Thompson, the Bruin has the best hands of them all, but Hainsworth is tops with his pads and feet.
"So naturally, I lift the puck for Hainsworth, and reserve the ankle attempts for Thompson. He's murder on anything from his knees up.
Lorne Chabot has a cute trick of clinging to one post and leaving the opposite side of the net wide open. But it's just bait, and Bill declares it's wisest to feint toward the open side and shoot at the small corner as Chabot lunges.
Davie Kerr, praises Bill, has no weaknesses and a great future. Bill Beveridge "just doesn't figure". Fair, but that's about all.
I don't expect Worters and Thompson to make it this round, and I'm not saying they should. Just posting for the group's consideration and to help paint a fuller picture of these long-gone netminders.
Clint Benedict
Border Cities Star, Jul 26, 1926
Now that the great Georges Vezina has passed on, the outstanding stars between the posts are (Alec) Connell and Clint Benedict. It was a coincidence that both these figured in the final play-offs for the eastern title, and speaks significantly of the importance of the goaler to present-day hockey machines which, for the most part, are formulated and molded with a view to keeping scores down rather than scoring goals.
Interesting comment about the hockey machines of the mid-20s focusing on keeping goals down rather than scoring. That was certainly true of Benedict's Senators and Maroons. The writer interprets this to mean that the goalie was particularly important for those defensive teams, but you could look at it the other way and say that the goalie was well protected. We've discussed this same topic last round about Henrik Lundqvist.
Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Nov 13, 1930
A recap of Benedict's long pro career upon the occasion of the end of his major league career.
Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years. He first broke into athletics by playing Canada's national game of lacrosse, at which he was a star, and came into hockey prominence with New Edinburghs, an amateur club from which came many brilliant stars for the professional game. Tall, and apparently gawky and awkward, with a shambling style of skating, Benedict possessed an eagle eye and the quickness of a cat. In the days when goalers were not allowed to drop to the ice to stop shots, Benedict was dubbed "Tumbling Clint" because he insisted on going to his knees to stop shots, and the records of those distant days indicate that he was penalized more than once for thus breaking the playing rules. Later, when it became permissible for a goaler to drop to any position he wished to stop a shot, Benedict became almost unbeatable. He and the late George Vezina were the admitted kings of the nets.
(Detailed recap of Benedict's career, teams, teammates, results).
Known as one of the game's greatest "money players," Benedict has figured in half a score of play-off series...Thus Benedict figured in play-off or world's series games in eight out of nine series from 1919-20 to 1927-28, his first series with Maroons being the only one in which he missed one or the other.
I would interpret "greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years" to indicate that others may have matched or exceeded Benedict at his peak, but none were as good for as long.
Rated with Vezina as kings of the nets by this writer.
Roy Worters
Worters had an excellent Hart voting record, with finishes of 1-2-4-5. And he also had a strong all-star voting record when you include the unofficial teams voted on by coaches of the late 20s.
It's hard for us to imagine a goalie standing only 5'3" as the best in the league, so I've found some quotes on Worters' style of play.
The Pittsburgh Press, Mar 13, 1928
Hockey fans locally give Roy Worters credit for much of the late season success which the Pittsburgh ice team has had. The Pirates may fail to land a playoff berth in the National League, but their work during the last half of the season was a big improvement over what had preceded it, and Worters was one of the big cogs in the machine.
The little goalie is a veritable hockey pygmy. He stands five feet two inches and weighs 128 pounds, the smallest man in the league, no doubt.
Worters has such small and delicate hands that he seldom catches the puck and tosses it aside like so many of the other goalies, but contents himself with batting, or pushing it away.
One of the prime requisites of a goalie is the ability to skate, although to the layman this may seem an unimportant item. A goalie who can skate possesses the skill to recover after going out a bit from his position to stop a shot. Those who can't skate are caught flat-footed on a shot at the wide-open net.
Worters is held to be the best skater among the cage guardians. He can leap in the air and let a charging player slide under him into the mesh.
The Morning Leader, Apr 27, 1929
When Western hockey fans learned that Roy Worters was the greatest net guardian in the sport they were skeptical, but here's what the Vancouver Sun writer says after seeing Worters in action:
"Roy Worters, New York Americans goalie, who, by standing very erect on his skates, can just get his head over the top of the goal-rail holding the net up, is the coolest piece of "they shall not pass" hockey mechanism that your reporter has ever seen. While it may be true that the Lions did not trouble him vastly on Friday night, the insouciant young man from Toronto makes hard clearances look simple by the very excellence of his negative motion. Worters goes to the ice for a low shot, and clears in the same motion that brings him down. Not nervously, mind you, but as though it were all thought out as the puck is about to be driven at him. He gave a truly wonderful exhibition of grace in action, of uncanny anticipation, of cool realization. Every move was a picture.
The Vancouver Sun, Dec 8, 1931
Roy Worters discusses his many stitches over the years.
Meriden Daily Journal, Dec 31, 1934
If you took a little gamecock weighing a scant 130 pounds sopping wet, put about 30 pounds of hockey paraphernilia and impedimenta on his spare frame, and then saw him turn into the outstanding goal tender in the National Hockey League, you'd be surprised.
That's just why little Roy Worters, New York Americans' goalie and king of the loops's puck stoppers is such a surprising little feller.
"Shrimp," as the boys affectionately call the 5-foot 3-inch wonder, has been hailed as head man since the unfortunate death of Charley Gardiner, goal tender of the Champion Chicago Blackhawks last season.
Two of hockey's outstanding figures have spouted to great length on the attributes of the mite--and they aren't his bosses, either.
One is the gray-thatched Les Patrick, manager and coach of the New York Rangers, rival big league hockey outfit in Gotham town.
"The perfect goalie," Les arises to remark, "must have a perfect pair of eyes, a fine sense of timing, must be quick, agile, and alert, a fine skater, and must have a great pair of hands. Roy Worters has all these attributes, and that's the reason he's the standout goalie in the league."
Col. John S. Hammond, president of the New York Rangers, is another who is on Worters' side of the fence.
"Give us Roy, and we would be leading the league," he recently remarked. "He is the best goal tender in the business, and with him in the net we wouldn't have half as many goals scored against us."
Montreal Gazette, Jan 16, 1936 - Hockey Close-Ups by Marc T. McNeil
Roy Worters continues to be the most skilful goaltender in the circuit...Particularly in the art of clearing, which he has developed to a scientific pitch, does Worters excel...In one motion he can block a shot and angle it away in neat clearance off stick, arms, chest, or skates.
Calgary Herald, Jun 11, 1969
Columnist Hal Walker on the 1969 induction of Roy Worters to the Hall of Fame. Walker had started as a sportwriter in Toronto with the Globe in 1933.
Roy was so small, only 5'1", 130 pounds, that little of him showed above the cross bar in goal, but he had cat-like reflexes, a good eye, and outstanding courage...
I asked Sweeney Schriner about Roy Worters on Wednesday and Dave said: "You know when I was reading about Roy, my first thought was why did they wait for so long to put him in the Hall of Fame? I felt he should have been in before me, because he was older (Sweeney was inducted in 1964). He was one of the greatest of goaltenders.
Schriner felt that Worters' ability in fending off pucks with the back of his glove was one of his biggest assets. "He could knock off shots with ease. He was also very good with his feet, the little stinker. I always maintained he was one of the greatest goaltenders hockey has ever known."
So Worters was a good skater for a goaltender, best in the league before Thompson. He preferred to block or deflect shots rather than catch them, and excelled at angling those shots away from the goal.
Tiny Thompson
Calgary Daily Herald, Jan 30, 1931
Recap of Thompson's Calgary hockey career in the minors, juniors, seniors. Mentions that he played some forward while in senior hockey, but Charlie Reid advised him his future was in goaltending.
I've lost the link, but another article on Thompson's early days in Calgary said that when he joined Canmore's senior team, they had an established goaltender and hadn't lost a game in three seasons, so he played defence and also some forward in his first season.
Western Canada hockey fans have doubtless read plenty about this Calgary boy in the National League. Too bad they can't see him in action with the Bruins. He's the smoothest-working bit of goal-tending machinery you ever saw. Makes 90 per cent of his saves with an active left hand. Seldom uses his pads or club to block a shot. Spears drives with a thin-covered left hand, drops the cake to the ice and whams out long, fast forward passes to his mates.
Thompson is the only goalie in eastern professional hockey who has actually taken full advantage of the openings offered through forward-passing. Charlie Gardiner of the Chicago Hawks, and George Hainsworth of the Canadiens, who are regarded as Thompson's rivals for netminding laurels, seldom flash long passes down the boards. The writer knows of only one other netminder, Hughie Lehman, once of Vancouver Maroons, who ever worked the pass play like Thompson.
"Tiny" wears a skinny pair of hockey gloves, with most of the padding removed. He's left-handed. The back of his right hand is protected by a sponge pad, about one inch thick and eight inches square. Howie Morenz of Canadiens slugged Thompson across the right hand one night not so long ago, and that prompted "Tiny" to rig up the sponge pad to guard the back of his hand.
It seems strange that a goalie could make 90% of the stops with his left hand, but I guess most shots weren't as hard or were from farther out.
Thompson was a pioneer in passing the puck as a goalie, like Hughie Lehman before him.
His pad for the back of his right hand sounds like a primitive blocker. Maybe to protect his hand when covering the puck?
Calgary Daily Herald, Apr 7, 1933
Bill Cook discusses every goalie's weakness. Says Chuck Gardiner is best and John Ross Roach is second.
Thompson described as having the best hands of any goalie, so Cook used "ankle attempts" when shooting on him.
"Gardiner has a wonderful system of timing. But he goes out of the nets, which Roach never does. Roach makes you wait until the last fraction of a second because he feints with you. The best way to beat him is from ten feet out, with a sharp drive into the small corner. The same goes for Roy Worters.
"If Gardiner comes out to meet you it means you'll have to hurry your shot. But usually he is a sucker for a feint when away from his cage. I guess I've feinted Gardiner more times than any goalie in the league.
"Goalie Hainsworth, says Bill, can't handle a chest-high puck. He's sloppy with his hands. Tiny Thompson, the Bruin has the best hands of them all, but Hainsworth is tops with his pads and feet.
"So naturally, I lift the puck for Hainsworth, and reserve the ankle attempts for Thompson. He's murder on anything from his knees up.
Lorne Chabot has a cute trick of clinging to one post and leaving the opposite side of the net wide open. But it's just bait, and Bill declares it's wisest to feint toward the open side and shoot at the small corner as Chabot lunges.
Davie Kerr, praises Bill, has no weaknesses and a great future. Bill Beveridge "just doesn't figure". Fair, but that's about all.
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MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,741
- 17,652
Always thought this was a bit of an idiotic take from the public opinion.
I mean, "choking" implies snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, or something to that effect.
Luongo could have the game of his life, the Canucks wouldn't have won that game. Because the Canucks didn't score a single goal.
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jigglysquishy
Registered User
Stealing from last week
Vezina Shares of post-1972 birth cohorts.
Stolen from @TheDevilMadeMe 's methodology and updated to 2024
Times top 3 in Vezina
Vasilevskiy - 4
Luongo - 3
Price - 2
Out of all the goalies that will come up on our lists, no one had a bigger divide between Vezina/All-Star voting and general perception than Price. There was a 5ish year period where he was the consensus best goalie in the world. Yet, his award voting outside 2014-15 is really weak. I look forward to having this discussion.
Across the whole eligibility, there are three goalies that stand out as having 4+ years of being the consensus best goalie in the world: Benedict, Price, Vasilevskiy.
Vezina Shares of post-1972 birth cohorts.
Stolen from @TheDevilMadeMe 's methodology and updated to 2024
| Goalie | Times | Share | |
| 1 | Connor Hellebucyk | 5 | 2.63 |
| 2 | Pekka Rinne | 5 | 2.12 |
| 3 | Andrei Vasilevsky | 6 | 2.05 |
| 4 | Sergei Bobrovsky | 6 | 1.97 |
| 5 | Henrik Lundqvist | 10 | 1.93 |
| 6 | Braden Holtby | 3 | 1.68 |
| 7 | Roberto Luongo | 9 | 1.66 |
| 8 | Tim Thomas | 3 | 1.55 |
| 9 | Tuukka Rask | 5 | 1.5 |
| 10 | Miikka Kiprusoff | 7 | 1.44 |
| 11 | Carey Price | 7 | 1.4 |
| 12 | Evgeni Nabokov | 6 | 1.23 |
| 13 | Igor Shesterkin | 3 | 1.02 |
Times top 3 in Vezina
Vasilevskiy - 4
Luongo - 3
Price - 2
Out of all the goalies that will come up on our lists, no one had a bigger divide between Vezina/All-Star voting and general perception than Price. There was a 5ish year period where he was the consensus best goalie in the world. Yet, his award voting outside 2014-15 is really weak. I look forward to having this discussion.
Across the whole eligibility, there are three goalies that stand out as having 4+ years of being the consensus best goalie in the world: Benedict, Price, Vasilevskiy.
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,741
- 17,652
Carey Price was headed to a strong Vezina/AS finish in 2013, but he got injured at some point, continued playing and ended up with pretty pedestrian numbers. The drop was super visible.
He'd have better support by not playing (despite finishing with less games). Was also pretty awful in the playoffs.
Also, very good in 2011-2012, but no voters realized because the team was really awful (roster and coaching).
He'd have better support by not playing (despite finishing with less games). Was also pretty awful in the playoffs.
Also, very good in 2011-2012, but no voters realized because the team was really awful (roster and coaching).
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 49,076
- 30,009
So I figured as the guy that's watched 95% of Vasi's starts, I can give a bit of perspective of him as a fan.
Vasi at his best was probably the most athletic goalie in the league. Some of the quickest lateral movement I've seen - kind of comparable to Fleury in that way. The biggest difference was Fleury didn't have the control and poise that Vasi had. Vasi was quick but didn't waste movement. He wasn't a guy that made a simple save look extraordinary, or a guy who ended up with a lot of desperation saves because he overcommitted. He was calm in the net but when the puck went East West quickly, he was able to get over there. And he just was not a guy you were going to beat low.
While not something to judge too heavily on, during his peak seasons he was also probably one of the best shootout goalies in the league (because of that athleticism).
The benefit of his athleticism was mainly - I mean y'all have seen enough of the 2016-2022 Lightning. They played fast. The Dmen got very involved in the play toward the offensive zone. And if you wanted to get in a track meet type of game? They were down for it, because not only were they more talented than you, when you got your Grade As that they were more than willing to trade, they had Vasilevskiy back there to stop them. When they started going to the Finals those three straight seasons, obviously Tampa let off the gas a bit in the playoffs and played a more structured game, but Vasi was still superb.
Also, his behind the back save on Drew Doughty in like 2019 or so? One of the sickest I've ever seen.
Vasi at his best was probably the most athletic goalie in the league. Some of the quickest lateral movement I've seen - kind of comparable to Fleury in that way. The biggest difference was Fleury didn't have the control and poise that Vasi had. Vasi was quick but didn't waste movement. He wasn't a guy that made a simple save look extraordinary, or a guy who ended up with a lot of desperation saves because he overcommitted. He was calm in the net but when the puck went East West quickly, he was able to get over there. And he just was not a guy you were going to beat low.
While not something to judge too heavily on, during his peak seasons he was also probably one of the best shootout goalies in the league (because of that athleticism).
The benefit of his athleticism was mainly - I mean y'all have seen enough of the 2016-2022 Lightning. They played fast. The Dmen got very involved in the play toward the offensive zone. And if you wanted to get in a track meet type of game? They were down for it, because not only were they more talented than you, when you got your Grade As that they were more than willing to trade, they had Vasilevskiy back there to stop them. When they started going to the Finals those three straight seasons, obviously Tampa let off the gas a bit in the playoffs and played a more structured game, but Vasi was still superb.
Also, his behind the back save on Drew Doughty in like 2019 or so? One of the sickest I've ever seen.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Me too.
4x a Vezina finalist.
It's ultimately a result of the Jets' defence collapsing repeatedly in the playoffs. When he comes up I hope we can dive into the specifics. I did a video of the one of Avs games last year and Hellebucyk was still strong despite the stats.
I'm curious on your perspective on the significant downturn the last few years. A loss of athleticism? Hedman slowing down? Sergachev missing time and then getting traded? Loss of McDonaugh?
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 49,076
- 30,009
Quick follow-on since I want to directly compare him to Price here and I saw I got some likes and don't want those to be assumed to endorse this post as well.
The Habs were not a very talented team (but at the same time their badness is incredibly overstated in a way reminiscent of how the Rangers are discussed), but they played to Price's strengths. First saves, limit rush chances, and no rebounds. Tampa did the opposite and exposed Vasi to way more tough situations. I do think this was deliberate (and a side effect from a Matt Carle-Andrej Sustr pairing somehow playing 18 minutes a night). I think this probably hurt Vasi's accolades *a bit*, but was better for the team (at least during the regular season).
The Habs were not a very talented team (but at the same time their badness is incredibly overstated in a way reminiscent of how the Rangers are discussed), but they played to Price's strengths. First saves, limit rush chances, and no rebounds. Tampa did the opposite and exposed Vasi to way more tough situations. I do think this was deliberate (and a side effect from a Matt Carle-Andrej Sustr pairing somehow playing 18 minutes a night). I think this probably hurt Vasi's accolades *a bit*, but was better for the team (at least during the regular season).
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 49,076
- 30,009
I would probably push back a bit on the "last few years". In 23 he posted 34 wins with a .915 save percentage on a team that had lost a lot of talent. Certainly not a peak season, but he still finished 6th in Vezina voting.
Last season was his first sub .910 season of his career. And he was bad - especially early. But while I think there was a bit of a hindrance with lateral movement while he was recovering, the biggest (and most concerning) issue was his weakness felt like it was more shots from distance and through middling screens. The type of thing where you would expect a positionally sound goalie to be okay with. Could have been mental or just rust from not getting reps and rehabbing. It got better toward the end of the year but it didn't feel like "Vasi".
As far as this season, it's a pretty small sample size but there was only one game where I thought he was bad. One game he gave up 5 but the defense just had one of those nights where they were coughing up the puck and giving up 2 on 1s every other shift, but there was one game where everything was going in. If that's the Vasi we have going forward? Yikes. But if Tampa has a chance to be great again - the roster is clicking pretty well, two good scoring lines and it looks like a top 4 that can carry the load again - Vasi is going to need to be good again. I'm hoping it's a one year blip - there's certainly excuses for it with the miles he's had on him and the injury he was recovering from - but there's no way to know for sure until we see more.
frisco
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
I was hoping Barrasso would come up this round. Top three Vezinas for some guys:
Tom Barrasso 1-2-2-2-3
Belfour-1-1-2-3
Lundqvist 1-2-3-3-3
Vasy 1-2-3-3
Luongo 2-3-3
Price 1-3
B.Smith 1
My Best-Carey
Tom Barrasso 1-2-2-2-3
Belfour-1-1-2-3
Lundqvist 1-2-3-3-3
Vasy 1-2-3-3
Luongo 2-3-3
Price 1-3
B.Smith 1
What is Barrasso's Vezina shares?
My Best-Carey
The Macho King
Back* to Back** World Champion
- Jun 22, 2011
- 49,076
- 30,009
Barrasso has those ugly 80s stat lines and split the net a lot. Also the 80s... IDK being the best goalie in the 80s is like being the tallest dwarf.
That's probably a bit unfair though, and he did have a long career, but even his DPE stats are pretty bad outside of that late spike year. I'd be interested in the discussion though.
frisco
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Hurt a lot. Always was #1 when healthy but missed pretty much three completel seasons of prime with injuries. I don't know if you penalize him for that. Sort of made up for that with an early career start (18) and played a long time.
80's = Fuhr, Roy, Billy Smith then was head-to-head with Belfour, Hasek, Joseph, Beezer later on.
Five-time Vezina finalist is pretty darn impressive vs. the current competition. That really stands out.
My Best-Carey
jigglysquishy
Registered User
1.98
One of my holdups is that Vezina shares aren't equal across generations. It has become considerably harder to put together a Vezina record. I'm not exactly sure why, but voters are more likely to give Vezina votes to "one-offs" compared to years past.
Vezina shares by birth decade, all results over 0.50
1960s
| Rank | Name | Birth Year | Vezina Shares |
| 1 | Dominik Hasek | 1965 | 4.76 |
| 2 | Patrick Roy | 1965 | 4.63 |
| 3 | Ed Belfour | 1965 | 2.51 |
| 4 | Tom Barasso | 1965 | 1.98 |
| 5 | Curtis Joseph | 1967 | 1.02 |
| 6 | Ron Hextall | 1964 | 0.86 |
| 7 | Mike Vernon | 1963 | 0.84 |
| 8 | Darren Puppa | 1965 | 0.82 |
| 9 | Kirk McLean | 1966 | 0.75 |
| 10 | Andy Moog | 1960 | 0.56 |
| Sum | 18.73 | ||
| Sum without Hasek/Roy | 9.34 |
1970s
| Rank | Name | Birth Year | Vezina Shares |
| 1 | Martin Brodeur | 1972 | 5.40 |
| 2 | Roberto Luongo | 1979 | 1.66 |
| 3 | Tim Thomas | 1974 | 1.55 |
| 4 | Miikka Kiprusoff | 1976 | 1.44 |
| 5 | Evgeni Nabokov | 1975 | 1.23 |
| 6 | Olaf Kozlig | 1970 | 0.84 |
| 7 | Marty Turco | 1975 | 0.72 |
| 8 | Jose Theodore | 1976 | 0.70 |
| 9 | Roman Turek | 1970 | 0.56 |
| 10 | Jim Carey | 1974 | 0.52 |
| Sum | 14.62 | ||
| Sum without Brodeur | 9.22 |
1980s
| Rank | Name | Birth Year | Vezina Shares |
| 1 | Pekka Rinne | 1982 | 2.12 |
| 2 | Sergei Bobrovsky | 1988 | 1.97 |
| 3 | Henrik Lundqvist | 1982 | 1.93 |
| 4 | Braden Holtby | 1989 | 1.68 |
| 5 | Tuukka Rask | 1987 | 1.50 |
| 6 | Carey Price | 1987 | 1.40 |
| 7 | Ryan Miller | 1980 | 0.87 |
| 8 | Jonathan Quick | 1986 | 0.75 |
| 9 | Semeyon Varlamov | 1988 | 0.60 |
| 10 | Ilya Bryzgalov | 1980 | 0.59 |
| Sum | 13.41 |
1990s
| Rank | Name | Birth Year | Vezina Shares |
| 1 | Connor Hellebucyk | 1993 | 2.63 |
| 2 | Andrei Vasilevsky | 1994 | 2.05 |
| 3 | Igor Shesterkin | 1995 | 1.02 |
| 4 | Linus Ullmark | 1993 | 0.87 |
| 5 | Ilya Sorokin | 1995 | 0.54 |
| Sum | 7.11 |
The net result is that from 1960s era births through 1990s era births it has become systematically harder to consolidate Vezina votes. More goalies get votes, more goalies get throw away votes.
Barasso is a great example. He has the fourth highest Vezina share of goalies born in the 60s (Hasek, Roy, Belfour). Yet, only four goalies born 1965 have achieved a higher Vezina share than he did (Brodeur, Hellebucyk, Rinne, Vasilevskiy).
Maybe the 60s born goalies were just stacked to an unreal level. But it doesn't sit right with me that the fourth best goalie born in the 1960s would be ahead all but four goalies born 1966-1995.
I'm sure you could throw this into excel and make a relationship with Vezina vote consolidation, but I'm at a loss as to how to do it.
Obviously 1990s era goalies are still getting votes so it's incomplete.
I'm not saying we should be throwing out Vezina shares, but I think the changes in voting patterns makes direct era-comparisons particularly challenging.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Barrasso is a pretty meh goaltender that will be up much too soon...but doesn't need to be discussed now.
I've seen Thompson mentioned as the greatest ever or greatest modern goalie ever more often than I thought when I was doing Brimsek research. For whatever that's worth. I had him not far from Gardiner on my initial list...
I've seen Thompson mentioned as the greatest ever or greatest modern goalie ever more often than I thought when I was doing Brimsek research. For whatever that's worth. I had him not far from Gardiner on my initial list...
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
My initial thoughts...
- Let's keep the ineligible goalie discussion to a minimum!
- Price/Vasilevskiy/Bower start off very high for me.
- As a group, we're totally undecided on Bernie Parent - he was the only goalie to slot in at every position on people's ballots in vote 3. I'd love to hear more.
- I'd also love to hear @MXD relitigate his vitriolic feelings towards Tiny Thompson! I don't think he's so out of place here, but I doubt he'll place high on my ballot.
- No goalie rose higher for me from when I first started on my initial list up until now than Roy Worters. I think there's a very real 'bad team goalie' effect from back then where goalies who played on crappy teams were deemed more valuable than perhaps they truly were, because they had so much more work to do. I had Worters marked down as one of them. I was definitely wrong about that though, and worked him up my list pretty quickly, and I'm still not sure he was high enough. There's quite a lot of contemporary opinion on technical specifics of his game, @overpass having already started us off there. I'm gonna see what else I can dig up and report back.
- Let's keep the ineligible goalie discussion to a minimum!
- Price/Vasilevskiy/Bower start off very high for me.
- As a group, we're totally undecided on Bernie Parent - he was the only goalie to slot in at every position on people's ballots in vote 3. I'd love to hear more.
- I'd also love to hear @MXD relitigate his vitriolic feelings towards Tiny Thompson! I don't think he's so out of place here, but I doubt he'll place high on my ballot.
- No goalie rose higher for me from when I first started on my initial list up until now than Roy Worters. I think there's a very real 'bad team goalie' effect from back then where goalies who played on crappy teams were deemed more valuable than perhaps they truly were, because they had so much more work to do. I had Worters marked down as one of them. I was definitely wrong about that though, and worked him up my list pretty quickly, and I'm still not sure he was high enough. There's quite a lot of contemporary opinion on technical specifics of his game, @overpass having already started us off there. I'm gonna see what else I can dig up and report back.
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MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,741
- 17,652
Tiny Thompson? The bullet points edition :
- Team underperforming relative to skaters overall level (stars and depth)
- Never really looked good elsewhere (that's not really a negative, because he was getting up there in age when he got to Detroit, but that's not a positive ... Though a older contemporary of his who is not available for voting yet managed to remain in the NHL up to his 40ies ... and his replacement in Detroit, who probably made its way to exactly zero lists, saw an uptick in the Wings fortunes)
- Has gotten less appreciation than contemporary Worters, who had to do with MUCH worse teams.
- Requires a very good separation to Gardiner, who just got voted in
- Team underperforming relative to skaters overall level (stars and depth)
- Never really looked good elsewhere (that's not really a negative, because he was getting up there in age when he got to Detroit, but that's not a positive ... Though a older contemporary of his who is not available for voting yet managed to remain in the NHL up to his 40ies ... and his replacement in Detroit, who probably made its way to exactly zero lists, saw an uptick in the Wings fortunes)
- Has gotten less appreciation than contemporary Worters, who had to do with MUCH worse teams.
- Requires a very good separation to Gardiner, who just got voted in
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
- 51,741
- 17,652
I'm not that big into the whole newspaper scouring, but...
Anything on Roy Worters 30-31 season? Because, from a purely hockey-reference scouting perspective, that season looks mighty impressive : team had worst offence but best defense, the roster is about as New York Americans as it can possibly get, and ended up with no Hart voting support whatsoever (Worters won the Hart And also finished Top-5 three more times). Eddie Gerard's systems may have something to do with that (but they were back to worst in the NHL for goals allowed next season).
Anything on Roy Worters 30-31 season? Because, from a purely hockey-reference scouting perspective, that season looks mighty impressive : team had worst offence but best defense, the roster is about as New York Americans as it can possibly get, and ended up with no Hart voting support whatsoever (Worters won the Hart And also finished Top-5 three more times). Eddie Gerard's systems may have something to do with that (but they were back to worst in the NHL for goals allowed next season).
