HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4

[Dr John Carlson]

Procedure

• In this vote, you will be presented with 11 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means one name out of these eleven will be left unranked on your ballot.
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top 5 players will be added to the final list (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 (or 3&4!), or the break between 5&6 is minimal)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues
• Voting threads will continue until we have added 60 names to the list, for a total of 12 voting threads

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 goaltenders (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the final ranking
• These voters are: @nabby12, @overpass, @frisco, @Professor What, @DN28, @jigglysquishy, @tony d, @rmartin65, @Vilica, @bobholly39, @The Pale King, @blogofmike, @Dr John Carlson, @MXD, @Michael Farkas, @ContrarianGoaltender, @VanIslander, @seventieslord, @Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Please refrain from excessive use of the 'laughing' reaction to indicate disagreement
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project
• Anybody may participate in the discussion, whether they submitted a list or not

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that wins are a team stat

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 1st at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 3rd at 11:59 PM Eastern time. I will release the results of the vote the morning of Monday, November 4th, at which point the next voting thread will begin.


Vote 3 Candidates

• Clint Benedict
• Johnny Bower
• Turk Broda
• Jiri Holecek
• Roberto Luongo
• Bernie Parent
• Carey Price
• Billy Smith
• Tiny Thompson
• Andrei Vasilevskiy
• Roy Worters

Click to read more...

 

[bobholly39]

Very happy to see Carey Price up. I'd have loved to have seen all 3 of Price, Vasi and Lundqvist at the same time, but oh well.

I didn't get a chance to comment much last round - but I just wanted to say for Vasi, I find it incredibly hard to rate him because he's still in the midst of his career, and seems to be slowing down, and I don't know what that means yet.

Everything up to the 2021 finals is great.

His 2022 season - very good, but less so than the previous 4. Good playoffs
His 2023 season - again, decent, but not as good as that previous 4 year stretch. Disappointing playoffs
His 2024 season & playoffs - both disappointing

10 years from now - is Vasi going to a goalie who hit a sharp decline at barely age ~27, and never got it back? That's really young for a modern guy. Or is he about to bounce back, and have another ~5-7 years as a very good #1 goalie in the league, and maybe even win more accolades/remain elite?

It's hard for me to decide how high to rank him all-time, or how he compares to others, without that extra perspective.

 

[bobholly39]

Administrative question.

How are we deciding how many names are available each round? It seems like it's been pretty low in project so far. I think we started with 8, then 10, and now 11 twice. I feel as though past projects had closer to ~15 names some rounds.

Is the idea to keep it at ~10-11 the whole projec? Or go up to ~15 past a certain rank? Or is each round tabulated differently depending on how close the upcoming guys are?

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Administrative question.

How are we deciding how many names are available each round? It seems like it's been pretty low in project so far. I think we started with 8, then 10, and now 11 twice. I feel as though past projects had closer to ~15 names some rounds.

Is the idea to keep it at ~10-11 the whole projec? Or go up to ~15 past a certain rank? Or is each round tabulated differently depending on how close the upcoming guys are?

Thanks for clarifying.

The number will steadily grow. By the end of the project, I'd imagine we will be seeing about 15 names up at once.

We don't want to flood the voting with names and let guys get lost in the shuffle, though.

 

[MXD]

I totally expected going in this round NR'ing Vasilevskiy again, but Tiny Thompson will in all likelihood prevent this. It's probably two rounds too early for Tiny.

Other first impressions? It's time for Benedict, and first entrants Luongo and Worters look like they could sneak. Price and Smith less so.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Carey Price, finally

 

[jigglysquishy]

Suprised not to see Lehman yet.

Happy Luongo is up. He was outstanding on some awful Panthers teams. Narrowly lost a Vezina in 2007. Finally gets a good team and makes it to game 7 of the Cup Finals.

Remains a strong goalie into the mid 2010s.

So much of his career gets wrapped up on game 7 of the 2011 finals. If he has a strong game he's probably the Conn Smythe winner and gains a massive career boost. Instead the public opinion is that he was a playoff choker.

 

[overpass]

I'll post some quotes I've found on the old-time goalies in this round. Benedict, Worters, and Thompson.

I don't expect Worters and Thompson to make it this round, and I'm not saying they should. Just posting for the group's consideration and to help paint a fuller picture of these long-gone netminders.

Clint Benedict

Border Cities Star, Jul 26, 1926
Now that the great Georges Vezina has passed on, the outstanding stars between the posts are (Alec) Connell and Clint Benedict. It was a coincidence that both these figured in the final play-offs for the eastern title, and speaks significantly of the importance of the goaler to present-day hockey machines which, for the most part, are formulated and molded with a view to keeping scores down rather than scoring goals.

Interesting comment about the hockey machines of the mid-20s focusing on keeping goals down rather than scoring. That was certainly true of Benedict's Senators and Maroons. The writer interprets this to mean that the goalie was particularly important for those defensive teams, but you could look at it the other way and say that the goalie was well protected. We've discussed this same topic last round about Henrik Lundqvist.

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, Nov 13, 1930
A recap of Benedict's long pro career upon the occasion of the end of his major league career.

Benedict has been rated by many shrewd observers the greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years. He first broke into athletics by playing Canada's national game of lacrosse, at which he was a star, and came into hockey prominence with New Edinburghs, an amateur club from which came many brilliant stars for the professional game. Tall, and apparently gawky and awkward, with a shambling style of skating, Benedict possessed an eagle eye and the quickness of a cat. In the days when goalers were not allowed to drop to the ice to stop shots, Benedict was dubbed "Tumbling Clint" because he insisted on going to his knees to stop shots, and the records of those distant days indicate that he was penalized more than once for thus breaking the playing rules. Later, when it became permissible for a goaler to drop to any position he wished to stop a shot, Benedict became almost unbeatable. He and the late George Vezina were the admitted kings of the nets.

(Detailed recap of Benedict's career, teams, teammates, results).

Known as one of the game's greatest "money players," Benedict has figured in half a score of play-off series...Thus Benedict figured in play-off or world's series games in eight out of nine series from 1919-20 to 1927-28, his first series with Maroons being the only one in which he missed one or the other.

I would interpret "greatest goaler hockey has ever known, over a period of years" to indicate that others may have matched or exceeded Benedict at his peak, but none were as good for as long.

Rated with Vezina as kings of the nets by this writer.

Roy Worters

Worters had an excellent Hart voting record, with finishes of 1-2-4-5. And he also had a strong all-star voting record when you include the unofficial teams voted on by coaches of the late 20s.

It's hard for us to imagine a goalie standing only 5'3" as the best in the league, so I've found some quotes on Worters' style of play.

The Pittsburgh Press, Mar 13, 1928
Hockey fans locally give Roy Worters credit for much of the late season success which the Pittsburgh ice team has had. The Pirates may fail to land a playoff berth in the National League, but their work during the last half of the season was a big improvement over what had preceded it, and Worters was one of the big cogs in the machine.

The little goalie is a veritable hockey pygmy. He stands five feet two inches and weighs 128 pounds, the smallest man in the league, no doubt.

Worters has such small and delicate hands that he seldom catches the puck and tosses it aside like so many of the other goalies, but contents himself with batting, or pushing it away.

One of the prime requisites of a goalie is the ability to skate, although to the layman this may seem an unimportant item. A goalie who can skate possesses the skill to recover after going out a bit from his position to stop a shot. Those who can't skate are caught flat-footed on a shot at the wide-open net.

Worters is held to be the best skater among the cage guardians. He can leap in the air and let a charging player slide under him into the mesh.

The Morning Leader, Apr 27, 1929
When Western hockey fans learned that Roy Worters was the greatest net guardian in the sport they were skeptical, but here's what the Vancouver Sun writer says after seeing Worters in action:

"Roy Worters, New York Americans goalie, who, by standing very erect on his skates, can just get his head over the top of the goal-rail holding the net up, is the coolest piece of "they shall not pass" hockey mechanism that your reporter has ever seen. While it may be true that the Lions did not trouble him vastly on Friday night, the insouciant young man from Toronto makes hard clearances look simple by the very excellence of his negative motion. Worters goes to the ice for a low shot, and clears in the same motion that brings him down. Not nervously, mind you, but as though it were all thought out as the puck is about to be driven at him. He gave a truly wonderful exhibition of grace in action, of uncanny anticipation, of cool realization. Every move was a picture.

The Vancouver Sun, Dec 8, 1931
Roy Worters discusses his many stitches over the years.

Meriden Daily Journal, Dec 31, 1934
If you took a little gamecock weighing a scant 130 pounds sopping wet, put about 30 pounds of hockey paraphernilia and impedimenta on his spare frame, and then saw him turn into the outstanding goal tender in the National Hockey League, you'd be surprised.

That's just why little Roy Worters, New York Americans' goalie and king of the loops's puck stoppers is such a surprising little feller.

"Shrimp," as the boys affectionately call the 5-foot 3-inch wonder, has been hailed as head man since the unfortunate death of Charley Gardiner, goal tender of the Champion Chicago Blackhawks last season.

Two of hockey's outstanding figures have spouted to great length on the attributes of the mite--and they aren't his bosses, either.

One is the gray-thatched Les Patrick, manager and coach of the New York Rangers, rival big league hockey outfit in Gotham town.

"The perfect goalie," Les arises to remark, "must have a perfect pair of eyes, a fine sense of timing, must be quick, agile, and alert, a fine skater, and must have a great pair of hands. Roy Worters has all these attributes, and that's the reason he's the standout goalie in the league."

Col. John S. Hammond, president of the New York Rangers, is another who is on Worters' side of the fence.

"Give us Roy, and we would be leading the league," he recently remarked. "He is the best goal tender in the business, and with him in the net we wouldn't have half as many goals scored against us."

Montreal Gazette, Jan 16, 1936 - Hockey Close-Ups by Marc T. McNeil
Roy Worters continues to be the most skilful goaltender in the circuit...Particularly in the art of clearing, which he has developed to a scientific pitch, does Worters excel...In one motion he can block a shot and angle it away in neat clearance off stick, arms, chest, or skates.

Calgary Herald, Jun 11, 1969
Columnist Hal Walker on the 1969 induction of Roy Worters to the Hall of Fame. Walker had started as a sportwriter in Toronto with the Globe in 1933.

Roy was so small, only 5'1", 130 pounds, that little of him showed above the cross bar in goal, but he had cat-like reflexes, a good eye, and outstanding courage...

I asked Sweeney Schriner about Roy Worters on Wednesday and Dave said: "You know when I was reading about Roy, my first thought was why did they wait for so long to put him in the Hall of Fame? I felt he should have been in before me, because he was older (Sweeney was inducted in 1964). He was one of the greatest of goaltenders.

Schriner felt that Worters' ability in fending off pucks with the back of his glove was one of his biggest assets. "He could knock off shots with ease. He was also very good with his feet, the little stinker. I always maintained he was one of the greatest goaltenders hockey has ever known."

So Worters was a good skater for a goaltender, best in the league before Thompson. He preferred to block or deflect shots rather than catch them, and excelled at angling those shots away from the goal.

Tiny Thompson

Calgary Daily Herald, Jan 30, 1931
Recap of Thompson's Calgary hockey career in the minors, juniors, seniors. Mentions that he played some forward while in senior hockey, but Charlie Reid advised him his future was in goaltending.

I've lost the link, but another article on Thompson's early days in Calgary said that when he joined Canmore's senior team, they had an established goaltender and hadn't lost a game in three seasons, so he played defence and also some forward in his first season.

Western Canada hockey fans have doubtless read plenty about this Calgary boy in the National League. Too bad they can't see him in action with the Bruins. He's the smoothest-working bit of goal-tending machinery you ever saw. Makes 90 per cent of his saves with an active left hand. Seldom uses his pads or club to block a shot. Spears drives with a thin-covered left hand, drops the cake to the ice and whams out long, fast forward passes to his mates.

Thompson is the only goalie in eastern professional hockey who has actually taken full advantage of the openings offered through forward-passing. Charlie Gardiner of the Chicago Hawks, and George Hainsworth of the Canadiens, who are regarded as Thompson's rivals for netminding laurels, seldom flash long passes down the boards. The writer knows of only one other netminder, Hughie Lehman, once of Vancouver Maroons, who ever worked the pass play like Thompson.

"Tiny" wears a skinny pair of hockey gloves, with most of the padding removed. He's left-handed. The back of his right hand is protected by a sponge pad, about one inch thick and eight inches square. Howie Morenz of Canadiens slugged Thompson across the right hand one night not so long ago, and that prompted "Tiny" to rig up the sponge pad to guard the back of his hand.

It seems strange that a goalie could make 90% of the stops with his left hand, but I guess most shots weren't as hard or were from farther out.

Thompson was a pioneer in passing the puck as a goalie, like Hughie Lehman before him.

His pad for the back of his right hand sounds like a primitive blocker. Maybe to protect his hand when covering the puck?

Calgary Daily Herald, Apr 7, 1933

Bill Cook discusses every goalie's weakness. Says Chuck Gardiner is best and John Ross Roach is second.

Thompson described as having the best hands of any goalie, so Cook used "ankle attempts" when shooting on him.

"Gardiner has a wonderful system of timing. But he goes out of the nets, which Roach never does. Roach makes you wait until the last fraction of a second because he feints with you. The best way to beat him is from ten feet out, with a sharp drive into the small corner. The same goes for Roy Worters.

"If Gardiner comes out to meet you it means you'll have to hurry your shot. But usually he is a sucker for a feint when away from his cage. I guess I've feinted Gardiner more times than any goalie in the league.

"Goalie Hainsworth, says Bill, can't handle a chest-high puck. He's sloppy with his hands. Tiny Thompson, the Bruin has the best hands of them all, but Hainsworth is tops with his pads and feet.

"So naturally, I lift the puck for Hainsworth, and reserve the ankle attempts for Thompson. He's murder on anything from his knees up.

Lorne Chabot has a cute trick of clinging to one post and leaving the opposite side of the net wide open. But it's just bait, and Bill declares it's wisest to feint toward the open side and shoot at the small corner as Chabot lunges.

Davie Kerr, praises Bill, has no weaknesses and a great future. Bill Beveridge "just doesn't figure". Fair, but that's about all.

 

[MXD]

So much of his career gets wrapped up on game 7 of the 2011 finals. If he has a strong game he's probably the Conn Smythe winner and gains a massive career boost. Instead the public opinion is that he was a playoff choker.

Always thought this was a bit of an idiotic take from the public opinion.

I mean, "choking" implies snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, or something to that effect.

Luongo could have the game of his life, the Canucks wouldn't have won that game. Because the Canucks didn't score a single goal.