HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 3

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,654
10,002
NYC
www.youtube.com
Holecek isn't equal in skill either. The Tretiak comparison feels like a "hipster" play - "Eww, you like Elvis Presley...? He's so mainstream. I liked Jett Powers before anyone ever heard of him."

Yeah, well, that's still true because no one has ever heard of him, shut up haha

Not that I think Holecek is bad. But there are really glaring points in his game that leave a lot to be desired. Like the time it takes him from getting out of his normal stance into making a save selection. It lends itself to inconsistency on first shots. Tretiak doesn't have that ailment. Holecek just gives more net than you'd like. He can take more away faster than Dzurilla, fine...but I have questions about Holecek being very scalable.

Then again, some games he looks pretty good. I probably overrated him on my initial list (mid 20s) in quick retrospect.

EDIT: Both the 70's Czech goalies scare the hell out of me on a game to game basis. I have absolutely no need for a goalie like that right now - we have a top 10 in history open.
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
36,101
6,802
South Korea
Holecek has a joke of a resume compared to Tretiak @VanIslander
No.

Holecek was 4 times world championship all-star goalie over Tretiak in the 1970's, three times winning gold over the mighty Soviets whereas Tretiak came up short against much less all-time mighty Czechoslovakian skaters.

Holecek is to Tretiak what Brodeur is to Roy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: double5son10

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,276
8,854
Regina, Saskatchewan
Some interesting comparisons in play.

Bower and Broda. Leafs goaltenders on defensive juggernaut dynasties.

Canon has always had an appreciable gap in Broda's favour. Neither were the best of their era.

Lundqvist and Vasilevsky for best goalie born 1973 to 1998.

I like Holocek, but him and Parent are fighting for third best of their era while we have entire decades unrepresented.

I'm looking at Gardiner and Vezina at tops. Lundqvist will do well. I've warmed up to Durnan a lot.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,296
1,096
Charlie Gardiner has an obvious longevity issue, and as mentioned before when Chicago lost Gardiner, they kept the Vezina (low GA definition). The Vezina left town when Bill Durnan did. It eventually followed Clint Benedict (the low GA leadership, even if it's a tad early for a trophy) from Ottawa to the Montreal Maroons, following a Cup win that included a win over the Sens on the way..

Before anyone says the same of Parent's longevity as they might about Gardiner, here's a reminder that no one played more games at goaltender from 1967-68 through 1974-75 than Bernie Parent.

As for Holecek, I have difficulty discerning what's a result of him vs his teammates/coaching. It's not like he consistently outperforms Dzurilla (as a comparison, Connell and McNeil were okay goalies, but they didn't match up to Benedict and Durnan). Holecek seemed to be a coin flip on whether or not he was going to save the day or accidentally drive a promising team off of a cliff.

I'm really high on Lundqvist. Here's a post from early 2024 that found that if Lundqvist gave up 2 GA in a playoff game, he's one of a very select few who lost more often than not. That's not 2+ GA. That's 2 goals even. His team gave him 0 or 1 goals in support often enough that he had to win the game for his team. And he he was reasonably successful.

His back was often against the wall, and when it was, he was among the best in NHL history: NHL Records

Someone's gonna need to convince me not to have Lundqvist on top of my ballot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jigglysquishy

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,654
10,002
NYC
www.youtube.com
No.

Holecek was 4 times world championship all-star goalie over Tretiak in the 1970's, three times winning gold over the mighty Soviets whereas Tretiak came up short against much less all-time mighty Czechoslovakian skaters.

Holecek is to Tretiak what Brodeur is to Roy.
Yes, it's very, very, very close...

AGE 15
Vladislav Tretiak1967-1968U19 EJC Silver Medal
AGE 16
Vladislav Tretiak1968-1969U19 EJC Gold Medal
AGE 17
Vladislav Tretiak1969-1970Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1969-1970U19 EJC Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1969-1970World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 18
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971Soviet All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971Soviet Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971U19 EJC All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971U19 EJC Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971U19 EJC Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 19
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972Olympic Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972World Championship Silver Medal
AGE 20
Vladislav Tretiak1972-1973Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1972-1973USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1972-1973World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 21AGE 21
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974Soviet Union Player of the YearJiri Holecek1965-1966World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 22
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975Soviet Union Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 23
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976Olympic Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976Soviet Union Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976World Championship Silver Medal
AGE 24
Vladislav Tretiak1976-1977Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1976-1977USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1976-1977World Championship Bronze Medal
AGE 25
Vladislav Tretiak1977-1978Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1977-1978USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1977-1978World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 26AGE 26
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1970-1971World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1970-1971World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979World Championship All-Star TeamJiri Holecek1970-1971World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 27AGE 27
Vladislav Tretiak1979-1980Olympic Silver MedalJiri Holecek1971-1972Olympic Bronze Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1979-1980Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1971-1972World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1979-1980USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1971-1972World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 28AGE 28
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1972-1973World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981Soviet Union Player of the YearJiri Holecek1972-1973World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1972-1973World Championship Bronze Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 29AGE 29
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Canada Cup All-Star TeamJiri Holecek1973-1974Czechoslovakia Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Canada Cup ChampionJiri Holecek1973-1974World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Canada Cup MVP
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 30AGE 30
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1974-1975World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983Soviet Union Player of the YearJiri Holecek1974-1975World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 31AGE 31
Vladislav Tretiak1983-1984Olympic Gold MedalJiri Holecek1975-1976Olympic Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1983-1984Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1975-1976World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1983-1984USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1975-1976World Championship Best Goaltender
Jiri Holecek1975-1976World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 32
Jiri Holecek1976-1977Canada Cup Runner-Up
Jiri Holecek1976-1977World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 33
Jiri Holecek1977-1978World Championship All-Star Team
Jiri Holecek1977-1978World Championship Best Goaltender
Jiri Holecek1977-1978World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1989-1990Hockey Hall of Fame
AGE 44AGE 53
Vladislav Tretiak1996-1997IIHF Hall of FameJiri Holecek1997-1998IIHF Hall of Fame
AGE 56Jiri HolecekCzechoslovakia Hall of Fame
Vladislav Tretiak
2008​
IIHF Centennial All-Star Team
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,654
10,002
NYC
www.youtube.com
we have entire decades unrepresented.
What value does a decade have in this arena?

Looking at the non-NHL Europeans list...
The first 7 are Soviets.
Only 1 of the top 29 is not Soviet or Czech.

How come not all countries were represented there? No best Swede or Finn at 9? Not a Swiss player in sight...they were in the first ice hockey Olympics in 1920. Not one of them was good enough to beat the 30th best Soviet...?
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,933
473
Seat of the Empire
Yes, it's very, very, very close...

AGE 15
Vladislav Tretiak1967-1968U19 EJC Silver Medal
AGE 16
Vladislav Tretiak1968-1969U19 EJC Gold Medal
AGE 17
Vladislav Tretiak1969-1970Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1969-1970U19 EJC Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1969-1970World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 18
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971Soviet All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971Soviet Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971U19 EJC All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971U19 EJC Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971U19 EJC Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1970-1971World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 19
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972Olympic Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1971-1972World Championship Silver Medal
AGE 20
Vladislav Tretiak1972-1973Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1972-1973USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1972-1973World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 21AGE 21
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974Soviet Union Player of the YearJiri Holecek1965-1966World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1973-1974World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 22
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975Soviet Union Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1974-1975World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 23
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976Olympic Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976Soviet Union Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1975-1976World Championship Silver Medal
AGE 24
Vladislav Tretiak1976-1977Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1976-1977USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1976-1977World Championship Bronze Medal
AGE 25
Vladislav Tretiak1977-1978Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1977-1978USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1977-1978World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 26AGE 26
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1970-1971World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1970-1971World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979World Championship All-Star TeamJiri Holecek1970-1971World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1978-1979World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 27AGE 27
Vladislav Tretiak1979-1980Olympic Silver MedalJiri Holecek1971-1972Olympic Bronze Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1979-1980Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1971-1972World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1979-1980USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1971-1972World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 28AGE 28
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1972-1973World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981Soviet Union Player of the YearJiri Holecek1972-1973World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1972-1973World Championship Bronze Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1980-1981World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 29AGE 29
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Canada Cup All-Star TeamJiri Holecek1973-1974Czechoslovakia Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Canada Cup ChampionJiri Holecek1973-1974World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Canada Cup MVP
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1981-1982World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 30AGE 30
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1974-1975World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983Soviet Union Player of the YearJiri Holecek1974-1975World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak1982-1983World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 31AGE 31
Vladislav Tretiak1983-1984Olympic Gold MedalJiri Holecek1975-1976Olympic Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1983-1984Soviet ChampionJiri Holecek1975-1976World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak1983-1984USSR All-StarJiri Holecek1975-1976World Championship Best Goaltender
Jiri Holecek1975-1976World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 32
Jiri Holecek1976-1977Canada Cup Runner-Up
Jiri Holecek1976-1977World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 33
Jiri Holecek1977-1978World Championship All-Star Team
Jiri Holecek1977-1978World Championship Best Goaltender
Jiri Holecek1977-1978World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak1989-1990Hockey Hall of Fame
AGE 44AGE 53
Vladislav Tretiak1996-1997IIHF Hall of FameJiri Holecek1997-1998IIHF Hall of Fame
AGE 56Jiri HolecekCzechoslovakia Hall of Fame
Vladislav Tretiak
2008​
IIHF Centennial All-Star Team
Not to say I agree or disagree with your point, but did you just actually list "Soviet Champion" repeatedly, like it was some kind of accomplishment when playing for CSKA??
 
  • Like
Reactions: VanIslander

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,276
8,854
Regina, Saskatchewan
What value does a decade have in this arena?
In an all-time list we should be considering all-time.

We have the fourth best goalie of the 90s up (Belfour) as well as the fourth best on the O6 (Bower) and fourth best of the 70s (either Holocek/Parent).

I'm not saying all eras are equal, but I think if we're inducting the fourth best of an era before the best of several others we're missing the mark on all-time.

We're looking to induct #10 and we've inducted only two players who were in their prime before 1950 or after 2002. And no players who were in their prime before 1939 or after 2008.


It's part of why I think Lundqvist should go high this round. He was a model of consistency and got minimal defensive help. No one post Brodeur has the longevity of elite play. And on his two significant playoff runs (2012 and 2014) his team notoriously struggled to score. Of the final four teams in 2012 the Rangers were comfortably last in GF/game and in 2014 they were almost 0.50 GF/game below the other three teams.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,654
10,002
NYC
www.youtube.com
I'm not saying all eras are equal, but I think if we're inducting the fourth best of an era before the best of several others we're missing the mark on all-time.
I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion, respectfully. I'm not panicked by the idea that a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, whatever name is coming from an era before another. Just like no one was panicked that 7 Soviets hit before any other nation.

There's no post-lockout goalies (obviously, Brodeur held on because he was so adaptable but that wasn't his prime) yet - that's a decade or two. And the best one of them isn't even up for bid yet ;)

There's no over-expansion/post-sponsorship era goalies ('75 to '86) either. I find the "no one from this decade yet" thing that continues to crop up to be very artificial. As if every decade isn't going to get represented at some point. I'm just not panicked yet, we're at 10th overall.

I'm not asking you or anyone to change their mind...I just view the "uh oh, no 1910s" or "uh oh, no 2010s" thing to be like "uh oh, no Slovaks yet" on the non-NHL Europeans list...or any list haha
 

Dr John Carlson

Registered User
Dec 21, 2011
9,993
4,457
Nova Scotia
My problem with the 'best of the decade' point is, would anybody up for vote right now be any better than the 4th best of the O6 era, or the 90s? If so, then we might need to redo the first vote of the project.

Lundqvist will likely be high for me, too. I just watched way too many examples of him needing to play perfect, or close to perfect, in order to scrape by with a win on a team that had almost no star power beyond Hank. He's sort of under the radar for being technically unconventional... I can't think of any modern goalie who played deeper in the crease than him, and he couldn't handle the puck at all, but man... those Rangers teams badly lacked dynamicity, to the point that they needed to play their game plan to perfection, no room for error, and more often than not, there he was.

---

Here are the NHLPA player poll results for Andrei Vasilevskiy. Do we know if they did anything similar to this before 17-18 in the salary cap era? It must just be my memory playing tricks but I swear we had these polls earlier than 2017... anyway. These polls were conducted throughout the regular season. The 2017-18 results were conducted between the preseason and early January, while 2019-20 says voting was before the suspension of play for COVID. So, I assume in all of these seasons, voting was done in the first half of the year.

Only the top 5 were made public in each season. The question changed in some seasons, which is annoying, but I don't think the wording was different enough to affect the outcome.

YearGames PlayedAll-Star TeamVezinaNHLPA VotingRemainder of Top 5
2017-1865/823rd3rdPrice (41.00%), Quick (12.07%), Rinne (9.34%), Bobrovsky (8.20%), Holtby (5.01%)
2018-1953/821st1st3rd (17.05%)Price (29.89%), Rinne (17.26%), Fleury (6.53%), Bobrovsky (4.84%)
2019-2052/703rd3rd2nd (17.09%)Price (41.55%), Fleury (8.93%), Bobrovsky (5.63%), no 5th place
2020-2142/561st2nd1st (54.12%)Fleury (8.88%), Price (8.24%), Hellebuyck (5.07%), Rask (4.02%)
2021-2263/826th5th1st (37.43%)Price (13.97%), Fleury (6.70%), Gibson (3.54%), Markstrom/Quick/Saros (3.17%)
2022-2360/829th6th1st (52.33%)Shesterkin (4.83%), Fleury (4.00%), Hellebuyck (3.50%), Sorokin (3.17%)
2023-2452/8210th1st (46.92%)Shesterkin (6.49%), Sorokin (6.17%), Hellebuyck (5.03%), Saros (4.87%)
 
  • Like
Reactions: jigglysquishy

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,276
8,854
Regina, Saskatchewan
Lundqvist will likely be high for me, too. I just watched way too many examples of him needing to play perfect, or close to perfect, in order to scrape by with a win on a team that had almost no star power beyond Hank. He's sort of under the radar for being technically unconventional... I can't think of any modern goalie who played deeper in the crease than him, and he couldn't handle the puck at all, but man... those Rangers teams badly lacked dynamicity, to the point that they needed to play their game plan to perfection, no room for error, and more often than not, there he was.
A great example of this was the 2013 series against Boston. The Rangers got worked, only scoring 10 goals in 5 games, but allowing 37 shots per game.


Lundqvist still managed at .930 SV% at even strength.


It's just being put in a position to fail.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,654
10,002
NYC
www.youtube.com
Lundqvist will likely be high for me, too. I just watched way too many examples of him needing to play perfect, or close to perfect, in order to scrape by with a win on a team that had almost no star power beyond Hank. He's sort of under the radar for being technically unconventional... I can't think of any modern goalie who played deeper in the crease than him, and he couldn't handle the puck at all, but man...
Not saying this to disagree, but the Rangers were a very tight defensive team. They sold out to block shots, block lanes, collect rebounds (because Hank can't catch either), etc.

He played pretty deep, which isn't uncommon for a lot of European goalies. He's technically really good in terms of his pre-shot movement, his body mechanics, etc. He's designed to be a blocking style of goalie. He wore some pretty questionable equipment over the course of his career too - huge thigh risers, a giant glove that he can't close, etc. But at the same time he wasn't a bad goalie. It's weird to square. He's not quite cheap and not quite a cheat and he definitely had a lot of team/coaching help...but he also was really good on his own accord.

The Rangers were also incredibly risk averse and that held back guys and team success...like, they desperately needed someone to carry the puck from the back end for a long time, years of Girardi and Staal ringing it around the boards and hoping for it to bounce into the middle of the rink...just for that puck to land on the stick of slow, bald Derek Stepan instead of someone like Marian Gaborik was basically their whole game plan. D-men were hardly allowed to pass their own hashmarks with the puck on their stick.

So, they go out and acquire exactly the right piece...Keith Yandle. An offensive, puck rushing d-man who is also a great stretch pass threat. He's a guy that requires a lot of time to feel a game out (I call him a "rhythm player") and instead Vigneault or whoever it was played him like 13 minutes a game and nothing happened.

They built a roster to be a six-goalie system and each of those goalies had the same rebound control and they got what they got. It was enough to usually beat offensive teams and poor discipline teams...but it wasn't enough to get by well-balanced teams or teams that could out defend them with a better goalie.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
14,654
10,002
NYC
www.youtube.com
Just a couple of potential framing and informational pieces, not about anyone specific, I just want to close these tabs on my browser so I can work on something that uses a lot of CPU haha

More credence to the "Vezina gets the 1st Team" thing...

THN Feb 23 1952 said:
From this angle, it would appear that Terry Sawchuk is to take down $3,000 from the NIIL in a few weeks. I The Detroit I goal tender has virtually cinched the Vezina and First All-Star award and, necessarily, must be considered the leading candidate for the Hart Trophy as well. If Frank Boucher had his way, Sawchuk would get but two prizes …

“The rules for this trophy are all wrong,” Boucher points out. “Actually, it has become a team trophy … not one for the goalkeeper. It would be a lot fairer to give every man on the club $100 instead of giving the goalkeeper $1,000.

under these conditions, Jim Henry or Chuck Rayner or some other goalkeeper could be the best in the league and you’d never know it. If the team’s good and strong, the goalkeeper will have the record.

“Detroit’s making it easier for Sawchuk, as good as he is,” Boucher added. “For one thing, he doesn’t have as many shots to stop as most goaltenders. For another, Detroit is usually ahead near the end of the game, and therefore doesn’t need to lift Sawchuk off the ice and threaten hie goals-against record. Even if the situation presents itself, the Wings have declared they won’t lift Sawchuk. They’ll do anything to protect his record. It’s a real learn effort.”

Charging the goalkeeper with scores that are made after he is lifted is another of Boucher’s gripes. “Why penalize him when he’s sitting on the bench?” Frank asks. “It wouldn’t make any difference. ordinarily, but those goals could cost him the Vezina Trophy. That’s how crazy the Trophy rules are.

“You saw how much of a joke the Vezina has become last season. Toronto pulled a seal fast one getting the award for Rollins. Perfectly legitimate, too, under the present rules. Rollins plays just more than half the season and gets the award. At one point late in the season, Broda had a better record. Toronto worked it like they work pitchers “In baseball … bringing in a relief pitcher to save the game in the last four innings.”

...

“To figure this thing right,” Frank declares, “you’d have to put a man in each city. It would be his job to rate the goalkeeper each game, on the number of shots stopped and the toughness of the shots vs. the number that get by him. By weighing all factors, then you’d determine the best goalkeeper—not the goalkeeper of the best club.

##

More about the game being much "simpler" before from Jack Adams...meaning, another person who played/coached/managed/saw both sides is committing "era bias"...singles out goalies.

THN Apr 12 1952 said:
Ty Cobb’s hard remarks about the moderns of baseball stirred Jack Adams of the Red Wings to thinking about the eras of hockey, and he isn’t willing to concede anything to the old-timers.

Only Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore belong on any list of all time all-stars,” said Adams. “All the other great players have performed within the last 15 years.”

He said hockey was such a simple game 20 years ago that there are “men sitting the bench of every team in the League today who would have been 40-goal men in the old days. They can shoot, but can’t skate well enough to keep up today. Shooting would have been enough in the old days.

“Today’s game not only has developed the stars with the best quality, it has created quantity production of good players.” he said. “There are 20 times as many good players active today as there were in any single season up to 10 years ago.”

...

Hockey players until recently never had to work to stay in the game. They played maybe 20 games in a season, under rules where you could hustle when you felt like it and loaf when you felt like it.

“Today, with the forward pass and the tremendous money and other things making competition, players skate, skate, skate—it’s terrific work. Just the travel alone takes a tougher kind of player. Seventy games, plus exhibitions and playoffs over seven months...

...

“As the environment has got tougher, it’s made tougher hockey players in every position. Goal is the-best example. Today’s goalies are about the most wonderful athletes in sport. They see more shots in 10 minutes than the old-timers did in an hour. And the shots are coming in screened, deflected, and every other hard way.

It took a better breed of goalies to handle the new game, but they developed."

##
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,814
2,368
"Hockey is better now than ever"- Maurice Richard, as quoted in the Buffalo News, 22 December 1965

"I believe hockey is better now than it was, say, 15 years ago. I think the players are bigger and better. And 15 years from now, I think they'll be better than we are now. Everything improves"- Wayne Gretzky, as quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer, 14 January 1982 Page 32

Those are just the first two quotes that showed up when I searched in one of the paper archives.

We have become disciples of Barney Stinson; new is always better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DN28

DN28

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
648
657
Prague
Well I agree it's early to induct Holeček now but the criticism needs to be a bit more measured.

"Losing spot to Dzurilla" - True. But Dzurilla is a legitimite candidate to this list. 3rd-4th best non-NHL goalie from ca. 1960 to 1990.

Holecek seemed to be a coin flip on whether or not he was going to save the day or accidentally drive a promising team off of a cliff.
I was going to respond that on the contrary, Holeček was extremely reliable on international scene 1971-1978.. but "extremely reliable" would have been too much going into other direction.. Holeček did have a bad OG 1972, CC 1976, WHC 1977. That's 3 bad tournaments. His other major international tournaments during his prime (8) have been stellar... "Coin flip" is certainly not the right description.

Holeček had 8-year prime. He lost the #1 to Dzurilla in two seasons: 1972 and 1977; he kept his #1 in remaining six seasons. Holeček was a #1 CSSR starter in 1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978.

Sure, you'd want to see Holeček with zero seasons of being replaced... He would look a lot better in this group. And I guess, since he was replaced 3 times, that's really pushing him lower.. But Tretiak would have lost his starting position several times as well if he had Dzurilla-level backup ready to step in. Soviets lamented their goaltending woes continuously in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. In the 1960s, Starshinov and Chernyshev specifically compared the Czechoslovak goaltending favorably. Both quotes come from the 1966 editions of Kopaná-hokej magazine..

Kopaná-hokej, question: “How else could this cooperation look like?”
A. Chernyshov: “For example: Czechoslovaks have very good goalies. It´d be very interesting for us to send our coach to Czechoslovakia so that he can watch how the work with goalies is being run. Likewise for you [= Czechoslovaks], it would surely be interesting to find out about our way of physical conditioning trainings. This cooperation could be carried out through conferences of which we´ve talked about.”

This is a continuation of Viacheslav Starshinov's memory of his encounter with Plante in 1965 that I posted two weeks ago:
“When he [= Starshinov] was in Canada this year, he had the biggest interest in games of professionals from all players as he wanted to learn and watch something from them. ‘Every player, if he wants to rise with his performance, has to learn from the better ones that which he has not mastered yet. I have learnt to skate into free spaces in front of the goal and to manipulate with the stick close to the body!’ Those couple of games he has watched gave him so much. That´s why Soviet hockey managers officially asked LIHG this year for permission to play with professionals. ‘It is also our wish,’ Starshinov said. ‘Soviet team would like to try it out in this year´s trip to Canada too, but the managers of Canadian profi-teams have been still making excuses and they´ve lined up just a two or three real professional players against the Soviet players for a test. But we´ve played against the best goalie, professional Plante. He is perhaps the best in the world and we could not score a goal on him no matter what. So we lost 1:2. Our squad would need such a goalie! Although to go to Canadian goaltending school would be pointless. That is why our experts aim to get goalies on the level that Czechoslovakia has.’”

On the topic of Tretiak getting overplayed because of no capable replacement. This has been written after Tretiak receiving Soviet Player of the Year award in 1975:
In 1975, Футбол Хоккей collected four statements on second-time winner Vladislav Tretyak by his predecessors Firsov (poll winner 1968, 1969 and 1971), Konovalenko (1970), Maltsev (1972) and Kharlamov (1972, 1973). Their statements reflect Tretyak's singular rank among Soviet goaltenders and at the same time reveal the lack of depth Soviet goaltending was suffering from – contrary to Tretyak's own optimistic statement from 1974.

Valeri Kharlamov:
"It was a difficult season for all the players in the national team and especially for our goalkeeper: the matches with the Canadian professionals, the Izvestia Cup, the World Championship. In almost every match, the goal was tended by Tretyak, and in almost everyone of them he had to work hard. Add the countless games of the domestic championship in which Tretyak also played and you will understand what kind of load was on his shoulders. And sometimes it was too much for him and he let in weak goals (...). But in general, there was nothing to blame him for. Was he not seriously preparing for the games? Did he allow himself to train with a lukewarm attitude? Did he try to impress the spectators in any single instance? No, no and no. If he allowed a goal of the kind a high-class goaltender shouldn't have let in, it was due to the fatigue which built up gradually and made itself felt from time to time.
I know how mistakes chew on Tretyak. And yet, at the right moment, he makes himself forget about them and plays with such spirit as if the season had just begun and he had just taken a break for a month. Performing with such spirit, confident and reliable, Vladislav was – in my opinion – again the best goaltender at the World Championship, even if Jiří Holeček got the official recognition. But after all, it was our goaltender who won the head-to-head duel Tretyak vs Holeček in the key games of the tournament. As for the battles of Tretyak with the forwards, there is an even more tangible avantage on his side. A breakaway, where a forward goes one-against-one with the goaltender, is almost always a goal. Even with a great goaltender. Except with Tretyak."

Viktor Konovalenko:
"If there is one player this season who had to carry overloads, even extreme overloads, it is Tretyak. There's a lot of talk about how the first five of CSKA carried the main burden on their shoulders in the most important games, and rightly so. But then, the Petrov line as well as the army defencemen got at least a little rest during each match. And the goaltender was always on the ice! (...) In the matches with the Canadian professionals, the crucial games for the domestic championship and at the World Championship, Vladislav was at his best.
Were there failures? Some blunders in his performances? Yes, there were. Why? Everyone who watches hockey can answer this question: Tretyak did not have a minute of rest.
Tretyak has been the number one goaltender in our country for three years. And in all these years it was not possible to find worthy partner, neither in the national team nor in the club. Over the past three years, his backups have been Pashkov, Sidelnikov and Krivolapov, but not one of them was on par with him. Because our goaltenders have not yet learned how to work in training like Vladislav.
Yes, there were letdowns in the game of our goaltenders. But remember, in the main matches he was beyond praise. And that's the evidence of his quality. A classy athlete knows how to get himself together for the important games. I admit, Tretyak played rather bad at the Izvestia Cup in Prague. But when the World Championship came and it was time for the first duel with the Czechoslovak team, he was brilliant."

Anatoli Firsov:
"If everyone in our hockey had the attitude of Tretyak, no future opponent would be scary to us and our life as coaches would be much simpler. Athletes have periods when it looks like they would forget about the very word 'hockey' if they wouldn't gaze at the ice, the stick and the puck. At times I have experienced that myself. And with the current players, it perhaps happens more often than in my time. Even more with the leading players who set the tone on the national team and on CSKA. Their workloads are super high! And it doesn't surprise me when an experienced athlete frowns when he hears that the next training session is scheduled for the day right after the game or he even grumbles 'oh great, the off-day was cancelled again' or something like that.
I don't have to explain why Tretyak is burdened more than all the most burdened ones. But you won't even notice a shadow of displeasure in his eyes when he's told it's necessary to increase the loads or prolong the already difficult occupation."

Alexander Maltsev:
"I don't presume to count how many matches I have played against CSKA or even how many shots I made on their goal. But it's certain that goals against them are very rare. Even though I have tried to get the shot off unexpectedly, either from under the skate of a defenceman or after faking a pass, I have almost never managed to catch Tretyak by surprise. He has an amazing goaltending instinct and seems to know in advance where, at which point, the puck will be fired. And Tretyak knows exactly when to stay in the goal and when to move out towards the forward. In this and in other situations, he manages to react to the shot in the fraction of a second does not just reach the puck but catch it.
That's how Tretyak plays in his best games. In the best games and in most games. Of course, there are unsuccessful games too. There were in the current season, in particular in the middle. But Tretyak got himself together (...)
Yes, Vladislav Tretyak has become a worthy successor to Viktor Konovalenko. But if Viktor had good backups in his day, I don't see any goaltender today who could replace Tretyak and give him an opportunity to rest."

And this is what I posted nearly 5 years ago. Soviet goaltending at 1976 WHC:
Most of you have probably heard about the infamous game Poland vs. USSR with shocking result (6:4) at WHC 1976. This loss was partially caused by weak goaltending from A. Sidelnikov, not Tretiak himself. Sidelnikov got 4 goals and then, at 24th minute, was exchanged for Tretiak who finished the rest of the game. Sidelnikov did not play a single minute after.

Tretiak played fine in most of tough match-ups. USSR x Sweden 6:1 where the Swedes actually outshot the Soviets (29:36 shots against), game report from Československý sport says that Tretiak “was outstanding in the goal.” Otherwise the Soviets “won highly and without problems.”

USSR x CSSR 2:3, Soviets got outshot again (34:41 shots against). Tretiak seems to have played well, no blame for the goals allowed and solved several dangerous situations. Czechs played overall a bit better than Soviets but the game could definitely go either way.

USSR x Sweden 3:4, Soviets this time heavily outshot the Swedes (47:28 shots against) but lost. Sweden “won fully deservedly.” Swedes played tightly defensively and didn´t allow Soviets to really get into their combinatory cycling game. Tretiak had weak game, let several soft goals in, 3 of the Swedish goals were scored during 3 min. in the 2nd period. Tretiak wanted to be exchanged but Kulagin didn´t let him so he finished the game.

USSR x CSSR 3:3, Soviets were outshot once again (27:30 shots against) but finished the tournament with this tie and silver medal (Czechs went undefeated to the 1st place). Soviets were outplayed in this game again, though outplayed by small margin, no specific mention of Tretiak´s play in the report.

Now I am going to cite how Russian and Czechoslovak press commented Tretiak´s weak performance vs. Sweden that cost the Soviets the chance to defend the title. I think it reveals a danger of Soviets overworking Tretiak as well as the “goalie desert” behind Tretiak´s back.

Komsomolska Pravda wrote: “Losses of the fourteen times world champions can be explained not by bad luck, but mostly by mistakes which happened during the preparation of our team for the World Championship. It can barely be considered as a normal situation, when one and the same goalie is practically without substitution forced to protect the goal in all important international games. A man is not from iron. It has been talked about for several years now and yet Vladislav Tretiak has had no dignified alternating goalie so far. And by the way, no equivalent replacement has been found for injured Maltsev, Kapustin and Shadrin too.”

Československý sport wrote after the game: “His [Tretiak´s] goaltending colleague Sidelnikov did not succeed against Poland right in the initial game so coaches have been giving priority to him [Tretiak]. But he is so much tired from difficult season that he would definitely need a rest. No wonder then, that the match with Swedes did not work out as well as he´d wish. But not coach nor even players blamed him for anything after the game…”

Československý sport wrote after the championship: “The [Soviet] team also missed more balanced goaltending duo. Sidelnikov, who played weak in the initial clash with Poland, sat out the remaining games on the bench and Tretiak could not take a rest in a single game. It was shown through his weak performance with the Swedes too.”

Tretiak had to play at least over 60 games throughout the season, but quite possibly over 70 games given the amount (League + Olympics + World Championship + remaining international games + NHL Superseries). Hence some claims of possible overplaying and fatigue.

At the end of this season, Tretiak won his third straight 'Soviet Player of the Year' award.

Worth pointing out that Jiří Crha was Holeček's backup between 1973-1975. Crha lost a National team spot in 78-79. He was almost 30 y/o when he emigrated to Toronto in February 1980. He didn't need much time to adjust. He recorded 0.908 in 15 RS games (actually the highest '80 NHL regular season SV%). Crha kept the starting position in Toronto following '81 season. He disappeared from NHL subsequent season.

Past his prime Crha, maybe 3rd-5th best CSSR goalie in 1980 (?), became a starter in NHL seemingly almost over night. Czechoslovak goaltending was at its height particularly in 1975-1978 with at least 5 NHL caliber goalies. Holeček faced plenty of internal competition each season, each tournament. Something that Tretiak didn't face at all until Vladimir Myshkin established himself.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,501
3,694
Not saying this to disagree, but the Rangers were a very tight defensive team. They sold out to block shots, block lanes, collect rebounds (because Hank can't catch either), etc.

He played pretty deep, which isn't uncommon for a lot of European goalies. He's technically really good in terms of his pre-shot movement, his body mechanics, etc. He's designed to be a blocking style of goalie. He wore some pretty questionable equipment over the course of his career too - huge thigh risers, a giant glove that he can't close, etc. But at the same time he wasn't a bad goalie. It's weird to square. He's not quite cheap and not quite a cheat and he definitely had a lot of team/coaching help...but he also was really good on his own accord.

The Rangers were also incredibly risk averse and that held back guys and team success...like, they desperately needed someone to carry the puck from the back end for a long time, years of Girardi and Staal ringing it around the boards and hoping for it to bounce into the middle of the rink...just for that puck to land on the stick of slow, bald Derek Stepan instead of someone like Marian Gaborik was basically their whole game plan. D-men were hardly allowed to pass their own hashmarks with the puck on their stick.

So, they go out and acquire exactly the right piece...Keith Yandle. An offensive, puck rushing d-man who is also a great stretch pass threat. He's a guy that requires a lot of time to feel a game out (I call him a "rhythm player") and instead Vigneault or whoever it was played him like 13 minutes a game and nothing happened.

They built a roster to be a six-goalie system and each of those goalies had the same rebound control and they got what they got. It was enough to usually beat offensive teams and poor discipline teams...but it wasn't enough to get by well-balanced teams or teams that could out defend them with a better goalie.

That's what I remember of the Rangers too. They played extremely defensively. I remember them best from the 2012 playoffs in the first round against Ottawa. The Sens were on the front foot and attacking most of the time, especially when Karlsson was on the ice, but the Rangers always had five men back and it was very hard to crack their defensive shell.

At 5-on-5 that series, the Rangers:

Outscored Ottawa 9-7 (56%)
Saves were 138-153 (47%)
Missed shots were 56-86 (39%)
Blocked shots were 58-114 (34%)
Total shot attempts were 261-360 (42%)

Even though the Rangers were a #1 seed against a #8 seed, they sat back in their end and defended for much of the series, forcing a lot of blocked shots and missed shots,. Even though Ottawa had almost 1.5 times as many shot attempts, they outscored Ottawa and won the series.

I agree Lundqvist had a lot of team help, in that his team effectively shut down the middle of the ice and forced the play to the outside . But he was also very good and helped make it possible for them to play that extremely defensive style where they conceded so much of the rink. He will likely be on the top half of my ballot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jigglysquishy

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad