HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 3

[Michael Farkas]

Holecek isn't equal in skill either. The Tretiak comparison feels like a "hipster" play - "Eww, you like Elvis Presley...? He's so mainstream. I liked Jett Powers before anyone ever heard of him."

Yeah, well, that's still true because no one has ever heard of him, shut up haha

Not that I think Holecek is bad. But there are really glaring points in his game that leave a lot to be desired. Like the time it takes him from getting out of his normal stance into making a save selection. It lends itself to inconsistency on first shots. Tretiak doesn't have that ailment. Holecek just gives more net than you'd like. He can take more away faster than Dzurilla, fine...but I have questions about Holecek being very scalable.

Then again, some games he looks pretty good. I probably overrated him on my initial list (mid 20s) in quick retrospect.

EDIT: Both the 70's Czech goalies scare the hell out of me on a game to game basis. I have absolutely no need for a goalie like that right now - we have a top 10 in history open.

 

[VanIslander]

Dzurilla has a joke of a resume compared to Holecek @Michael Farkas

 

[Michael Farkas]

Holecek has a joke of a resume compared to Tretiak @VanIslander

 

[VanIslander]

Holecek has a joke of a resume compared to Tretiak @VanIslander

No.

Holecek was 4 times world championship all-star goalie over Tretiak in the 1970's, three times winning gold over the mighty Soviets whereas Tretiak came up short against much less all-time mighty Czechoslovakian skaters.

Holecek is to Tretiak what Brodeur is to Roy.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Some interesting comparisons in play.

Bower and Broda. Leafs goaltenders on defensive juggernaut dynasties.

Canon has always had an appreciable gap in Broda's favour. Neither were the best of their era.

Lundqvist and Vasilevsky for best goalie born 1973 to 1998.

I like Holocek, but him and Parent are fighting for third best of their era while we have entire decades unrepresented.

I'm looking at Gardiner and Vezina at tops. Lundqvist will do well. I've warmed up to Durnan a lot.

 

[blogofmike]

Charlie Gardiner has an obvious longevity issue, and as mentioned before when Chicago lost Gardiner, they kept the Vezina (low GA definition). The Vezina left town when Bill Durnan did. It eventually followed Clint Benedict (the low GA leadership, even if it's a tad early for a trophy) from Ottawa to the Montreal Maroons, following a Cup win that included a win over the Sens on the way..

Before anyone says the same of Parent's longevity as they might about Gardiner, here's a reminder that no one played more games at goaltender from 1967-68 through 1974-75 than Bernie Parent.

As for Holecek, I have difficulty discerning what's a result of him vs his teammates/coaching. It's not like he consistently outperforms Dzurilla (as a comparison, Connell and McNeil were okay goalies, but they didn't match up to Benedict and Durnan). Holecek seemed to be a coin flip on whether or not he was going to save the day or accidentally drive a promising team off of a cliff.

I'm really high on Lundqvist. Here's a post from early 2024 that found that if Lundqvist gave up 2 GA in a playoff game, he's one of a very select few who lost more often than not. That's not 2+ GA. That's 2 goals even. His team gave him 0 or 1 goals in support often enough that he had to win the game for his team. And he he was reasonably successful.

His back was often against the wall, and when it was, he was among the best in NHL history: NHL Records

Someone's gonna need to convince me not to have Lundqvist on top of my ballot.

 

[VanIslander]

we have entire decades unrepresented.

Hence why Vezina should go before clear 4th fiddle Belfour. Broda, too.

 

[Michael Farkas]

No.

Holecek was 4 times world championship all-star goalie over Tretiak in the 1970's, three times winning gold over the mighty Soviets whereas Tretiak came up short against much less all-time mighty Czechoslovakian skaters.

Holecek is to Tretiak what Brodeur is to Roy.

Yes, it's very, very, very close...

AGE 15
Vladislav Tretiak	1967-1968	U19 EJC Silver Medal
AGE 16
Vladislav Tretiak	1968-1969	U19 EJC Gold Medal
AGE 17
Vladislav Tretiak	1969-1970	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1969-1970	U19 EJC Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1969-1970	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 18
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	Soviet All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	Soviet Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	U19 EJC All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	U19 EJC Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	U19 EJC Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1970-1971	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 19
Vladislav Tretiak	1971-1972	Olympic Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1971-1972	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1971-1972	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1971-1972	World Championship Silver Medal
AGE 20
Vladislav Tretiak	1972-1973	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1972-1973	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1972-1973	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 21				AGE 21
Vladislav Tretiak	1973-1974	Soviet Union Player of the Year		Jiri Holecek	1965-1966	World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1973-1974	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1973-1974	World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1973-1974	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 22
Vladislav Tretiak	1974-1975	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1974-1975	Soviet Union Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak	1974-1975	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1974-1975	World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1974-1975	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 23
Vladislav Tretiak	1975-1976	Olympic Gold Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1975-1976	Soviet Union Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak	1975-1976	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1975-1976	World Championship Silver Medal
AGE 24
Vladislav Tretiak	1976-1977	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1976-1977	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1976-1977	World Championship Bronze Medal
AGE 25
Vladislav Tretiak	1977-1978	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1977-1978	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1977-1978	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 26				AGE 26
Vladislav Tretiak	1978-1979	Soviet Champion		Jiri Holecek	1970-1971	World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1978-1979	USSR All-Star		Jiri Holecek	1970-1971	World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1978-1979	World Championship All-Star Team		Jiri Holecek	1970-1971	World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1978-1979	World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1978-1979	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 27				AGE 27
Vladislav Tretiak	1979-1980	Olympic Silver Medal		Jiri Holecek	1971-1972	Olympic Bronze Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1979-1980	Soviet Champion		Jiri Holecek	1971-1972	World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1979-1980	USSR All-Star		Jiri Holecek	1971-1972	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 28				AGE 28
Vladislav Tretiak	1980-1981	Soviet Champion		Jiri Holecek	1972-1973	World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1980-1981	Soviet Union Player of the Year		Jiri Holecek	1972-1973	World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1980-1981	USSR All-Star		Jiri Holecek	1972-1973	World Championship Bronze Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1980-1981	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 29				AGE 29
Vladislav Tretiak	1981-1982	Canada Cup All-Star Team		Jiri Holecek	1973-1974	Czechoslovakia Player of the Year
Vladislav Tretiak	1981-1982	Canada Cup Champion		Jiri Holecek	1973-1974	World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1981-1982	Canada Cup MVP
Vladislav Tretiak	1981-1982	Soviet Champion
Vladislav Tretiak	1981-1982	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1981-1982	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 30				AGE 30
Vladislav Tretiak	1982-1983	Soviet Champion		Jiri Holecek	1974-1975	World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1982-1983	Soviet Union Player of the Year		Jiri Holecek	1974-1975	World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1982-1983	USSR All-Star
Vladislav Tretiak	1982-1983	World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1982-1983	World Championship Best Goaltender
Vladislav Tretiak	1982-1983	World Championship Gold Medal
AGE 31				AGE 31
Vladislav Tretiak	1983-1984	Olympic Gold Medal		Jiri Holecek	1975-1976	Olympic Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1983-1984	Soviet Champion		Jiri Holecek	1975-1976	World Championship All-Star Team
Vladislav Tretiak	1983-1984	USSR All-Star		Jiri Holecek	1975-1976	World Championship Best Goaltender
				Jiri Holecek	1975-1976	World Championship Gold Medal
				AGE 32
				Jiri Holecek	1976-1977	Canada Cup Runner-Up
				Jiri Holecek	1976-1977	World Championship Gold Medal
				AGE 33
				Jiri Holecek	1977-1978	World Championship All-Star Team
				Jiri Holecek	1977-1978	World Championship Best Goaltender
				Jiri Holecek	1977-1978	World Championship Silver Medal
Vladislav Tretiak	1989-1990	Hockey Hall of Fame
AGE 44				AGE 53
Vladislav Tretiak	1996-1997	IIHF Hall of Fame		Jiri Holecek	1997-1998	IIHF Hall of Fame
AGE 56				Jiri Holecek		Czechoslovakia Hall of Fame
Vladislav Tretiak	2008​	IIHF Centennial All-Star Team

 

[Michael Farkas]

we have entire decades unrepresented.

What value does a decade have in this arena?

Looking at the non-NHL Europeans list...
The first 7 are Soviets.
Only 1 of the top 29 is not Soviet or Czech.

How come not all countries were represented there? No best Swede or Finn at 9? Not a Swiss player in sight...they were in the first ice hockey Olympics in 1920. Not one of them was good enough to beat the 30th best Soviet...?

 

[MadArcand]

Yes, it's very, very, very close...

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1967-1968[/TD]
[TD]U19 EJC Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 16[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1968-1969[/TD]
[TD]U19 EJC Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 17[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1969-1970[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1969-1970[/TD]
[TD]U19 EJC Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1969-1970[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 18[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]Soviet All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]U19 EJC All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]U19 EJC Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]U19 EJC Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]Olympic Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 20[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1972-1973[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1972-1973[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1972-1973[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 21[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 21[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1973-1974[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Union Player of the Year[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1965-1966[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1973-1974[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1973-1974[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1973-1974[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 22[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Union Player of the Year[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 23[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]Olympic Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Union Player of the Year[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 24[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1976-1977[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1976-1977[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1976-1977[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Bronze Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 25[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1977-1978[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1977-1978[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1977-1978[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 26[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 26[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1978-1979[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1978-1979[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1978-1979[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1970-1971[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1978-1979[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1978-1979[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 27[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 27[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1979-1980[/TD]
[TD]Olympic Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]Olympic Bronze Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1979-1980[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1979-1980[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1971-1972[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 28[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 28[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1980-1981[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1972-1973[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1980-1981[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Union Player of the Year[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1972-1973[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1980-1981[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1972-1973[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Bronze Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1980-1981[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 29[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 29[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1981-1982[/TD]
[TD]Canada Cup All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1973-1974[/TD]
[TD]Czechoslovakia Player of the Year[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1981-1982[/TD]
[TD]Canada Cup Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1973-1974[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1981-1982[/TD]
[TD]Canada Cup MVP[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1981-1982[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1981-1982[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1981-1982[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 30[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 30[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1982-1983[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1982-1983[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Union Player of the Year[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1974-1975[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1982-1983[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1982-1983[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1982-1983[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1982-1983[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 31[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 31[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1983-1984[/TD]
[TD]Olympic Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]Olympic Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1983-1984[/TD]
[TD]Soviet Champion[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1983-1984[/TD]
[TD]USSR All-Star[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1975-1976[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 32[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1976-1977[/TD]
[TD]Canada Cup Runner-Up[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1976-1977[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Gold Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 33[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1977-1978[/TD]
[TD]World Championship All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1977-1978[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Best Goaltender[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1977-1978[/TD]
[TD]World Championship Silver Medal[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1989-1990[/TD]
[TD]Hockey Hall of Fame[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 44[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]AGE 53[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]
[TD]1996-1997[/TD]
[TD]IIHF Hall of Fame[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD]1997-1998[/TD]
[TD]IIHF Hall of Fame[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]AGE 56[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Jiri Holecek[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Czechoslovakia Hall of Fame[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vladislav Tretiak[/TD]

[TD]

2008​

[/TD]

[TD]IIHF Centennial All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Not to say I agree or disagree with your point, but did you just actually list "Soviet Champion" repeatedly, like it was some kind of accomplishment when playing for CSKA??

 

[jigglysquishy]

What value does a decade have in this arena?

In an all-time list we should be considering all-time.

We have the fourth best goalie of the 90s up (Belfour) as well as the fourth best on the O6 (Bower) and fourth best of the 70s (either Holocek/Parent).

I'm not saying all eras are equal, but I think if we're inducting the fourth best of an era before the best of several others we're missing the mark on all-time.

We're looking to induct #10 and we've inducted only two players who were in their prime before 1950 or after 2002. And no players who were in their prime before 1939 or after 2008.


It's part of why I think Lundqvist should go high this round. He was a model of consistency and got minimal defensive help. No one post Brodeur has the longevity of elite play. And on his two significant playoff runs (2012 and 2014) his team notoriously struggled to score. Of the final four teams in 2012 the Rangers were comfortably last in GF/game and in 2014 they were almost 0.50 GF/game below the other three teams.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not to say I agree or disagree with your point, but did you just actually list "Soviet Champion" repeatedly, like it was some kind of accomplishment when playing for CSKA??

What I did was not a good way to do anything. But low effort points can be brushed away with low effort facts...

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not saying all eras are equal, but I think if we're inducting the fourth best of an era before the best of several others we're missing the mark on all-time.

I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion, respectfully. I'm not panicked by the idea that a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, whatever name is coming from an era before another. Just like no one was panicked that 7 Soviets hit before any other nation.

There's no post-lockout goalies (obviously, Brodeur held on because he was so adaptable but that wasn't his prime) yet - that's a decade or two. And the best one of them isn't even up for bid yet

There's no over-expansion/post-sponsorship era goalies ('75 to '86) either. I find the "no one from this decade yet" thing that continues to crop up to be very artificial. As if every decade isn't going to get represented at some point. I'm just not panicked yet, we're at 10th overall.

I'm not asking you or anyone to change their mind...I just view the "uh oh, no 1910s" or "uh oh, no 2010s" thing to be like "uh oh, no Slovaks yet" on the non-NHL Europeans list...or any list haha

 

[Dr John Carlson]

My problem with the 'best of the decade' point is, would anybody up for vote right now be any better than the 4th best of the O6 era, or the 90s? If so, then we might need to redo the first vote of the project.

Lundqvist will likely be high for me, too. I just watched way too many examples of him needing to play perfect, or close to perfect, in order to scrape by with a win on a team that had almost no star power beyond Hank. He's sort of under the radar for being technically unconventional... I can't think of any modern goalie who played deeper in the crease than him, and he couldn't handle the puck at all, but man... those Rangers teams badly lacked dynamicity, to the point that they needed to play their game plan to perfection, no room for error, and more often than not, there he was.

---

Here are the NHLPA player poll results for Andrei Vasilevskiy. Do we know if they did anything similar to this before 17-18 in the salary cap era? It must just be my memory playing tricks but I swear we had these polls earlier than 2017... anyway. These polls were conducted throughout the regular season. The 2017-18 results were conducted between the preseason and early January, while 2019-20 says voting was before the suspension of play for COVID. So, I assume in all of these seasons, voting was done in the first half of the year.

Only the top 5 were made public in each season. The question changed in some seasons, which is annoying, but I don't think the wording was different enough to affect the outcome.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Year[/TD]
[TD]Games Played[/TD]
[TD]All-Star Team[/TD]
[TD]Vezina[/TD]
[TD]NHLPA Voting[/TD]
[TD]Remainder of Top 5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD]65/82[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]Price (41.00%), Quick (12.07%), Rinne (9.34%), Bobrovsky (8.20%), Holtby (5.01%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD]53/82[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[TD]3rd (17.05%)[/TD]
[TD]Price (29.89%), Rinne (17.26%), Fleury (6.53%), Bobrovsky (4.84%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD]52/70[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[TD]2nd (17.09%)[/TD]
[TD]Price (41.55%), Fleury (8.93%), Bobrovsky (5.63%), no 5th place[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD]42/56[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[TD]1st (54.12%)[/TD]
[TD]Fleury (8.88%), Price (8.24%), Hellebuyck (5.07%), Rask (4.02%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD]63/82[/TD]
[TD]6th[/TD]
[TD]5th[/TD]
[TD]1st (37.43%)[/TD]
[TD]Price (13.97%), Fleury (6.70%), Gibson (3.54%), Markstrom/Quick/Saros (3.17%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022-23[/TD]
[TD]60/82[/TD]
[TD]9th[/TD]
[TD]6th[/TD]
[TD]1st (52.33%)[/TD]
[TD]Shesterkin (4.83%), Fleury (4.00%), Hellebuyck (3.50%), Sorokin (3.17%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2023-24[/TD]
[TD]52/82[/TD]
[TD]10th[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]1st (46.92%)[/TD]
[TD]Shesterkin (6.49%), Sorokin (6.17%), Hellebuyck (5.03%), Saros (4.87%)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lundqvist will likely be high for me, too. I just watched way too many examples of him needing to play perfect, or close to perfect, in order to scrape by with a win on a team that had almost no star power beyond Hank. He's sort of under the radar for being technically unconventional... I can't think of any modern goalie who played deeper in the crease than him, and he couldn't handle the puck at all, but man... those Rangers teams badly lacked dynamicity, to the point that they needed to play their game plan to perfection, no room for error, and more often than not, there he was.

A great example of this was the 2013 series against Boston. The Rangers got worked, only scoring 10 goals in 5 games, but allowing 37 shots per game.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Lundqvist still managed at .930 SV% at even strength.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

It's just being put in a position to fail.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Lundqvist will likely be high for me, too. I just watched way too many examples of him needing to play perfect, or close to perfect, in order to scrape by with a win on a team that had almost no star power beyond Hank. He's sort of under the radar for being technically unconventional... I can't think of any modern goalie who played deeper in the crease than him, and he couldn't handle the puck at all, but man...

Not saying this to disagree, but the Rangers were a very tight defensive team. They sold out to block shots, block lanes, collect rebounds (because Hank can't catch either), etc.

He played pretty deep, which isn't uncommon for a lot of European goalies. He's technically really good in terms of his pre-shot movement, his body mechanics, etc. He's designed to be a blocking style of goalie. He wore some pretty questionable equipment over the course of his career too - huge thigh risers, a giant glove that he can't close, etc. But at the same time he wasn't a bad goalie. It's weird to square. He's not quite cheap and not quite a cheat and he definitely had a lot of team/coaching help...but he also was really good on his own accord.

The Rangers were also incredibly risk averse and that held back guys and team success...like, they desperately needed someone to carry the puck from the back end for a long time, years of Girardi and Staal ringing it around the boards and hoping for it to bounce into the middle of the rink...just for that puck to land on the stick of slow, bald Derek Stepan instead of someone like Marian Gaborik was basically their whole game plan. D-men were hardly allowed to pass their own hashmarks with the puck on their stick.

So, they go out and acquire exactly the right piece...Keith Yandle. An offensive, puck rushing d-man who is also a great stretch pass threat. He's a guy that requires a lot of time to feel a game out (I call him a "rhythm player") and instead Vigneault or whoever it was played him like 13 minutes a game and nothing happened.

They built a roster to be a six-goalie system and each of those goalies had the same rebound control and they got what they got. It was enough to usually beat offensive teams and poor discipline teams...but it wasn't enough to get by well-balanced teams or teams that could out defend them with a better goalie.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Just a couple of potential framing and informational pieces, not about anyone specific, I just want to close these tabs on my browser so I can work on something that uses a lot of CPU haha

More credence to the "Vezina gets the 1st Team" thing...

From this angle, it would appear that Terry Sawchuk is to take down $3,000 from the NIIL in a few weeks. I The Detroit I goal tender has virtually cinched the Vezina and First All-Star award and, necessarily, must be considered the leading candidate for the Hart Trophy as well. If Frank Boucher had his way, Sawchuk would get but two prizes …

“The rules for this trophy are all wrong,” Boucher points out. “Actually, it has become a team trophy … not one for the goalkeeper. It would be a lot fairer to give every man on the club $100 instead of giving the goalkeeper $1,000.

under these conditions, Jim Henry or Chuck Rayner or some other goalkeeper could be the best in the league and you’d never know it. If the team’s good and strong, the goalkeeper will have the record.

“Detroit’s making it easier for Sawchuk, as good as he is,” Boucher added. “For one thing, he doesn’t have as many shots to stop as most goaltenders. For another, Detroit is usually ahead near the end of the game, and therefore doesn’t need to lift Sawchuk off the ice and threaten hie goals-against record. Even if the situation presents itself, the Wings have declared they won’t lift Sawchuk. They’ll do anything to protect his record. It’s a real learn effort.”

Charging the goalkeeper with scores that are made after he is lifted is another of Boucher’s gripes. “Why penalize him when he’s sitting on the bench?” Frank asks. “It wouldn’t make any difference. ordinarily, but those goals could cost him the Vezina Trophy. That’s how crazy the Trophy rules are.

“You saw how much of a joke the Vezina has become last season. Toronto pulled a seal fast one getting the award for Rollins. Perfectly legitimate, too, under the present rules. Rollins plays just more than half the season and gets the award. At one point late in the season, Broda had a better record. Toronto worked it like they work pitchers “In baseball … bringing in a relief pitcher to save the game in the last four innings.”

...

“To figure this thing right,” Frank declares, “you’d have to put a man in each city. It would be his job to rate the goalkeeper each game, on the number of shots stopped and the toughness of the shots vs. the number that get by him. By weighing all factors, then you’d determine the best goalkeeper—not the goalkeeper of the best club.

##

More about the game being much "simpler" before from Jack Adams...meaning, another person who played/coached/managed/saw both sides is committing "era bias"...singles out goalies.

Ty Cobb’s hard remarks about the moderns of baseball stirred Jack Adams of the Red Wings to thinking about the eras of hockey, and he isn’t willing to concede anything to the old-timers.

“Only Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore belong on any list of all time all-stars,” said Adams. “All the other great players have performed within the last 15 years.”

He said hockey was such a simple game 20 years ago that there are “men sitting the bench of every team in the League today who would have been 40-goal men in the old days. They can shoot, but can’t skate well enough to keep up today. Shooting would have been enough in the old days.

“Today’s game not only has developed the stars with the best quality, it has created quantity production of good players.” he said. “There are 20 times as many good players active today as there were in any single season up to 10 years ago.”

...

“Hockey players until recently never had to work to stay in the game. They played maybe 20 games in a season, under rules where you could hustle when you felt like it and loaf when you felt like it.

“Today, with the forward pass and the tremendous money and other things making competition, players skate, skate, skate—it’s terrific work. Just the travel alone takes a tougher kind of player. Seventy games, plus exhibitions and playoffs over seven months...

...

“As the environment has got tougher, it’s made tougher hockey players in every position. Goal is the-best example. Today’s goalies are about the most wonderful athletes in sport. They see more shots in 10 minutes than the old-timers did in an hour. And the shots are coming in screened, deflected, and every other hard way.

“It took a better breed of goalies to handle the new game, but they developed."

##

 

[rmartin65]

"Hockey is better now than ever"- Maurice Richard, as quoted in the Buffalo News, 22 December 1965

"I believe hockey is better now than it was, say, 15 years ago. I think the players are bigger and better. And 15 years from now, I think they'll be better than we are now. Everything improves"- Wayne Gretzky, as quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer, 14 January 1982 Page 32

Those are just the first two quotes that showed up when I searched in one of the paper archives.

We have become disciples of Barney Stinson; new is always better.

 

[DN28]

Well I agree it's early to induct Holeček now but the criticism needs to be a bit more measured.

"Losing spot to Dzurilla" - True. But Dzurilla is a legitimite candidate to this list. 3rd-4th best non-NHL goalie from ca. 1960 to 1990.

Holecek seemed to be a coin flip on whether or not he was going to save the day or accidentally drive a promising team off of a cliff.

I was going to respond that on the contrary, Holeček was extremely reliable on international scene 1971-1978.. but "extremely reliable" would have been too much going into other direction.. Holeček did have a bad OG 1972, CC 1976, WHC 1977. That's 3 bad tournaments. His other major international tournaments during his prime (8) have been stellar... "Coin flip" is certainly not the right description.

Holeček had 8-year prime. He lost the #1 to Dzurilla in two seasons: 1972 and 1977; he kept his #1 in remaining six seasons. Holeček was a #1 CSSR starter in 1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978.

Sure, you'd want to see Holeček with zero seasons of being replaced... He would look a lot better in this group. And I guess, since he was replaced 3 times, that's really pushing him lower.. But Tretiak would have lost his starting position several times as well if he had Dzurilla-level backup ready to step in. Soviets lamented their goaltending woes continuously in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s. In the 1960s, Starshinov and Chernyshev specifically compared the Czechoslovak goaltending favorably. Both quotes come from the 1966 editions of Kopaná-hokej magazine..

Kopaná-hokej, question: “How else could this cooperation look like?”
A. Chernyshov: “For example: Czechoslovaks have very good goalies. It´d be very interesting for us to send our coach to Czechoslovakia so that he can watch how the work with goalies is being run. Likewise for you [= Czechoslovaks], it would surely be interesting to find out about our way of physical conditioning trainings. This cooperation could be carried out through conferences of which we´ve talked about.”

This is a continuation of Viacheslav Starshinov's memory of his encounter with Plante in 1965 that I posted two weeks ago:

“When he [= Starshinov] was in Canada this year, he had the biggest interest in games of professionals from all players as he wanted to learn and watch something from them. ‘Every player, if he wants to rise with his performance, has to learn from the better ones that which he has not mastered yet. I have learnt to skate into free spaces in front of the goal and to manipulate with the stick close to the body!’ Those couple of games he has watched gave him so much. That´s why Soviet hockey managers officially asked LIHG this year for permission to play with professionals. ‘It is also our wish,’ Starshinov said. ‘Soviet team would like to try it out in this year´s trip to Canada too, but the managers of Canadian profi-teams have been still making excuses and they´ve lined up just a two or three real professional players against the Soviet players for a test. But we´ve played against the best goalie, professional Plante. He is perhaps the best in the world and we could not score a goal on him no matter what. So we lost 1:2. Our squad would need such a goalie! Although to go to Canadian goaltending school would be pointless. That is why our experts aim to get goalies on the level that Czechoslovakia has.’”

On the topic of Tretiak getting overplayed because of no capable replacement. This has been written after Tretiak receiving Soviet Player of the Year award in 1975:

In 1975, Футбол Хоккей collected four statements on second-time winner Vladislav Tretyak by his predecessors Firsov (poll winner 1968, 1969 and 1971), Konovalenko (1970), Maltsev (1972) and Kharlamov (1972, 1973). Their statements reflect Tretyak's singular rank among Soviet goaltenders and at the same time reveal the lack of depth Soviet goaltending was suffering from – contrary to Tretyak's own optimistic statement from 1974.

Valeri Kharlamov:
"It was a difficult season for all the players in the national team and especially for our goalkeeper: the matches with the Canadian professionals, the Izvestia Cup, the World Championship. In almost every match, the goal was tended by Tretyak, and in almost everyone of them he had to work hard. Add the countless games of the domestic championship in which Tretyak also played and you will understand what kind of load was on his shoulders. And sometimes it was too much for him and he let in weak goals (...). But in general, there was nothing to blame him for. Was he not seriously preparing for the games? Did he allow himself to train with a lukewarm attitude? Did he try to impress the spectators in any single instance? No, no and no. If he allowed a goal of the kind a high-class goaltender shouldn't have let in, it was due to the fatigue which built up gradually and made itself felt from time to time.
I know how mistakes chew on Tretyak. And yet, at the right moment, he makes himself forget about them and plays with such spirit as if the season had just begun and he had just taken a break for a month. Performing with such spirit, confident and reliable, Vladislav was – in my opinion – again the best goaltender at the World Championship, even if Jiří Holeček got the official recognition. But after all, it was our goaltender who won the head-to-head duel Tretyak vs Holeček in the key games of the tournament. As for the battles of Tretyak with the forwards, there is an even more tangible avantage on his side. A breakaway, where a forward goes one-against-one with the goaltender, is almost always a goal. Even with a great goaltender. Except with Tretyak."

Viktor Konovalenko:
"If there is one player this season who had to carry overloads, even extreme overloads, it is Tretyak. There's a lot of talk about how the first five of CSKA carried the main burden on their shoulders in the most important games, and rightly so. But then, the Petrov line as well as the army defencemen got at least a little rest during each match. And the goaltender was always on the ice! (...) In the matches with the Canadian professionals, the crucial games for the domestic championship and at the World Championship, Vladislav was at his best.
Were there failures? Some blunders in his performances? Yes, there were. Why? Everyone who watches hockey can answer this question: Tretyak did not have a minute of rest.
Tretyak has been the number one goaltender in our country for three years. And in all these years it was not possible to find worthy partner, neither in the national team nor in the club. Over the past three years, his backups have been Pashkov, Sidelnikov and Krivolapov, but not one of them was on par with him. Because our goaltenders have not yet learned how to work in training like Vladislav.
Yes, there were letdowns in the game of our goaltenders. But remember, in the main matches he was beyond praise. And that's the evidence of his quality. A classy athlete knows how to get himself together for the important games. I admit, Tretyak played rather bad at the Izvestia Cup in Prague. But when the World Championship came and it was time for the first duel with the Czechoslovak team, he was brilliant."

Anatoli Firsov:
"If everyone in our hockey had the attitude of Tretyak, no future opponent would be scary to us and our life as coaches would be much simpler. Athletes have periods when it looks like they would forget about the very word 'hockey' if they wouldn't gaze at the ice, the stick and the puck. At times I have experienced that myself. And with the current players, it perhaps happens more often than in my time. Even more with the leading players who set the tone on the national team and on CSKA. Their workloads are super high! And it doesn't surprise me when an experienced athlete frowns when he hears that the next training session is scheduled for the day right after the game or he even grumbles 'oh great, the off-day was cancelled again' or something like that.
I don't have to explain why Tretyak is burdened more than all the most burdened ones. But you won't even notice a shadow of displeasure in his eyes when he's told it's necessary to increase the loads or prolong the already difficult occupation."

Alexander Maltsev:
"I don't presume to count how many matches I have played against CSKA or even how many shots I made on their goal. But it's certain that goals against them are very rare. Even though I have tried to get the shot off unexpectedly, either from under the skate of a defenceman or after faking a pass, I have almost never managed to catch Tretyak by surprise. He has an amazing goaltending instinct and seems to know in advance where, at which point, the puck will be fired. And Tretyak knows exactly when to stay in the goal and when to move out towards the forward. In this and in other situations, he manages to react to the shot in the fraction of a second does not just reach the puck but catch it.
That's how Tretyak plays in his best games. In the best games and in most games. Of course, there are unsuccessful games too. There were in the current season, in particular in the middle. But Tretyak got himself together (...)
Yes, Vladislav Tretyak has become a worthy successor to Viktor Konovalenko. But if Viktor had good backups in his day, I don't see any goaltender today who could replace Tretyak and give him an opportunity to rest."

And this is what I posted nearly 5 years ago. Soviet goaltending at 1976 WHC:

Most of you have probably heard about the infamous game Poland vs. USSR with shocking result (6:4) at WHC 1976. This loss was partially caused by weak goaltending from A. Sidelnikov, not Tretiak himself. Sidelnikov got 4 goals and then, at 24th minute, was exchanged for Tretiak who finished the rest of the game. Sidelnikov did not play a single minute after.

Tretiak played fine in most of tough match-ups. USSR x Sweden 6:1 where the Swedes actually outshot the Soviets (29:36 shots against), game report from Československý sport says that Tretiak “was outstanding in the goal.” Otherwise the Soviets “won highly and without problems.”

USSR x CSSR 2:3, Soviets got outshot again (34:41 shots against). Tretiak seems to have played well, no blame for the goals allowed and solved several dangerous situations. Czechs played overall a bit better than Soviets but the game could definitely go either way.

USSR x Sweden 3:4, Soviets this time heavily outshot the Swedes (47:28 shots against) but lost. Sweden “won fully deservedly.” Swedes played tightly defensively and didn´t allow Soviets to really get into their combinatory cycling game. Tretiak had weak game, let several soft goals in, 3 of the Swedish goals were scored during 3 min. in the 2nd period. Tretiak wanted to be exchanged but Kulagin didn´t let him so he finished the game.

USSR x CSSR 3:3, Soviets were outshot once again (27:30 shots against) but finished the tournament with this tie and silver medal (Czechs went undefeated to the 1st place). Soviets were outplayed in this game again, though outplayed by small margin, no specific mention of Tretiak´s play in the report.

Now I am going to cite how Russian and Czechoslovak press commented Tretiak´s weak performance vs. Sweden that cost the Soviets the chance to defend the title. I think it reveals a danger of Soviets overworking Tretiak as well as the “goalie desert” behind Tretiak´s back.

Komsomolska Pravda wrote: “Losses of the fourteen times world champions can be explained not by bad luck, but mostly by mistakes which happened during the preparation of our team for the World Championship. It can barely be considered as a normal situation, when one and the same goalie is practically without substitution forced to protect the goal in all important international games. A man is not from iron. It has been talked about for several years now and yet Vladislav Tretiak has had no dignified alternating goalie so far. And by the way, no equivalent replacement has been found for injured Maltsev, Kapustin and Shadrin too.”

Československý sport wrote after the game: “His [Tretiak´s] goaltending colleague Sidelnikov did not succeed against Poland right in the initial game so coaches have been giving priority to him [Tretiak]. But he is so much tired from difficult season that he would definitely need a rest. No wonder then, that the match with Swedes did not work out as well as he´d wish. But not coach nor even players blamed him for anything after the game…”

Československý sport wrote after the championship: “The [Soviet] team also missed more balanced goaltending duo. Sidelnikov, who played weak in the initial clash with Poland, sat out the remaining games on the bench and Tretiak could not take a rest in a single game. It was shown through his weak performance with the Swedes too.”

Tretiak had to play at least over 60 games throughout the season, but quite possibly over 70 games given the amount (League + Olympics + World Championship + remaining international games + NHL Superseries). Hence some claims of possible overplaying and fatigue.

At the end of this season, Tretiak won his third straight 'Soviet Player of the Year' award.

Worth pointing out that Jiří Crha was Holeček's backup between 1973-1975. Crha lost a National team spot in 78-79. He was almost 30 y/o when he emigrated to Toronto in February 1980. He didn't need much time to adjust. He recorded 0.908 in 15 RS games (actually the highest '80 NHL regular season SV%). Crha kept the starting position in Toronto following '81 season. He disappeared from NHL subsequent season.

Past his prime Crha, maybe 3rd-5th best CSSR goalie in 1980 (?), became a starter in NHL seemingly almost over night. Czechoslovak goaltending was at its height particularly in 1975-1978 with at least 5 NHL caliber goalies. Holeček faced plenty of internal competition each season, each tournament. Something that Tretiak didn't face at all until Vladimir Myshkin established himself.

 

[overpass]

Not saying this to disagree, but the Rangers were a very tight defensive team. They sold out to block shots, block lanes, collect rebounds (because Hank can't catch either), etc.

He played pretty deep, which isn't uncommon for a lot of European goalies. He's technically really good in terms of his pre-shot movement, his body mechanics, etc. He's designed to be a blocking style of goalie. He wore some pretty questionable equipment over the course of his career too - huge thigh risers, a giant glove that he can't close, etc. But at the same time he wasn't a bad goalie. It's weird to square. He's not quite cheap and not quite a cheat and he definitely had a lot of team/coaching help...but he also was really good on his own accord.

The Rangers were also incredibly risk averse and that held back guys and team success...like, they desperately needed someone to carry the puck from the back end for a long time, years of Girardi and Staal ringing it around the boards and hoping for it to bounce into the middle of the rink...just for that puck to land on the stick of slow, bald Derek Stepan instead of someone like Marian Gaborik was basically their whole game plan. D-men were hardly allowed to pass their own hashmarks with the puck on their stick.

So, they go out and acquire exactly the right piece...Keith Yandle. An offensive, puck rushing d-man who is also a great stretch pass threat. He's a guy that requires a lot of time to feel a game out (I call him a "rhythm player") and instead Vigneault or whoever it was played him like 13 minutes a game and nothing happened.

They built a roster to be a six-goalie system and each of those goalies had the same rebound control and they got what they got. It was enough to usually beat offensive teams and poor discipline teams...but it wasn't enough to get by well-balanced teams or teams that could out defend them with a better goalie.

That's what I remember of the Rangers too. They played extremely defensively. I remember them best from the 2012 playoffs in the first round against Ottawa. The Sens were on the front foot and attacking most of the time, especially when Karlsson was on the ice, but the Rangers always had five men back and it was very hard to crack their defensive shell.

At 5-on-5 that series, the Rangers:

Outscored Ottawa 9-7 (56%)
Saves were 138-153 (47%)
Missed shots were 56-86 (39%)
Blocked shots were 58-114 (34%)
Total shot attempts were 261-360 (42%)

Even though the Rangers were a #1 seed against a #8 seed, they sat back in their end and defended for much of the series, forcing a lot of blocked shots and missed shots,. Even though Ottawa had almost 1.5 times as many shot attempts, they outscored Ottawa and won the series.

I agree Lundqvist had a lot of team help, in that his team effectively shut down the middle of the ice and forced the play to the outside . But he was also very good and helped make it possible for them to play that extremely defensive style where they conceded so much of the rink. He will likely be on the top half of my ballot.

 

[DN28]

One thing that prevents me from ranking Benedict higher than Vezina & Lehman is his 1924 playoff blunder. It looks like Benedict's excessive drinking cost Senators one more cup...

Morning Leader. Sep. 30, 1924:

OTTAWA HOCKEY CLUB FIGHTS BENEDICT ACTION FOR $800; AVER GOALIE BROKE TRAINING

Ottawa, Sept. 29 -- The defence of the Ottawa Hockey Association, Limited, against the action started by Clinton Benedict, former goal minder of the Ottawa professional team has been filed with the clerk of the County Court and contains charges against the former hockey player. Mr. Benedict, some months ago, sued the club for $800 salary and remuneration, which he claimed he was entitled to under two contracts and which he had never been paid.

Officers of the club state they are determined to fight the claim and will allow the case to go to trial. The whole case is ready for the session of the County Court, which commences on October 7, and will likely be heard during that week. In its defence, the club counterclaims for $300 against Mr. Benedict.

In their filed defence, the owners of the Ottawa hockey club relate differences over salary and contracts, subsequent to the signing of the original contract for the 1923 season. Excerpts from the defence claims follow:

"10. Because of the plaintiff's breaches of training rules, details of which are hereinafter contained, the defendant fined the plaintiff $300 and notified the plaintiff thereof.

"12. The plaintiff was fined for persistent breaches in training rules, inasmuch as he persisted in indulging in intoxicants during the playing season and in direct contravention of rules established by the defendant, and after repeated warnings from the defendant's officers.

Alleged Breaches of Contract
"13. The following are the particulars of such breaches:
"(a) before the Toronto game on January 22, 1924, as the team was taking the train to play in Toronto, on January 23, 1924, plaintiff arrived in Toronto under the influence of beer or whiskey, according to his own statement at the time to one of his teammates, who assisted him to the berth, where however, one of the defendant's directors observed plaintiff and noticed that plaintiff appeared to be intoxicated.

"(b) On the train to Toronto on February 13, 1924, Messrs. McDowell and Ahearn, directors of the defendant company, spoke seriously to plaintiff regarding his drinking habits and plaintiff broke down and promised faithfully to leave liquor alone.

"(c) After the game of February 21, 1924, (on which day, Dr. Lorne Graham, the club's physician, described the plaintiff's nervous condition as being due to liquor) it was necessary to allow him to recuperate, and defendant company had to use an untrained substitute in a match at Hamilton, and consequently lost such game.

"(d) On the afternoon of Saturday, February 23, 1924, the day of a Canadien-Ottawa game at Ottawa, Dr. Lorne Graham was called to attend plaintiff, who had suffered a nervous breakdown, which breakdown the said Dr. Graham ascribed to the excessive use of liquor.

"(e) On March 21, 1924, the day of a very important game at Montreal, Quebec, he ordered beer up to his room at the Windsor Hotel and drank so much sometimes during the day that he was unable to play properly and the defendant's team were beaten 3-0, plaintiff actually scoring one of the goals on himself. On the said day, Thain McDowell, one of the director's of the defendant company and T. P. Gorman, the manager, spoke to Benedict and he admitted that he had been drinking and promised to refrain from the use of intoxicants.

On Night of Play-Off
"(f) On night of Saturday, March 18, 1924, the night of the Ottawa-Canadien play-off game in Montreal, all the players, including the plaintiff, were told they must retire immediately after the match, as the team were playing the same team again on Monday, the second day thereafter in the last and deciding game. Plaintiff, however, alone disobeyed this order, and disappeared about 11 p.m. the same evening. Several times between 11 o'clock and midnight, the plaintiff's wife, who was in room 1,100 of the hotel the Windsor, telephoned defendant's manager and asked him to locate the plaintiff, who she said had refused to remain in his room. At about 2:30 a.m. on Sunday the plaintiff phoned to Messrs. Hitchman and Finnegan of the team and asked them to go over to the room he was in. Hitchman and Finnegan got up out of bed as the knew we were looking for the plaintiff and went down to the number of the room he had given them.

Ottawa Citizen. Sep. 26, 1924:

Former Ottawa Goaler Answers Questions Made by Hockey Club Management

BENEDICT DENIES ANY MISCONDUCT UNDER CONTRACT

Former Goaler of the Ottawas Files Statement in the County Court Refuting Allegations

NO RIGHT IMPOSE FINE, HE DECLARES

Asserts Club Never Suffered Loss Through Any Action of His

Clint Benedict, ex-goaler for the Ottawa hockey team, who is prosecuting in the county court a claim for $800 alleged to be unpaid salary, in a statement today filed with the clerk of the county court, denies any misconduct and states that at no time did he render himself in such physical condition as to be unable to carry out his contract with the club.

Mr. Benedict denies the right or jurisdiction of the club to impose any fine on him.
He states that the club never suffered any damages, as alleged, through action of his.
The statement in full follows.

In reply to the defendant's statement of defence, the plaintiff says that the terms and circumstances of his contract with the defendant were not as stated in the said statement of defence, but that under his said contract, the plaintiff was entitled to a salary of $2,300; that he duly carried out all the terms of his said contract and was at no time in any way liable to the defendant for breaches of the said contract and never misconducted himself under or in respect of same; and the defendant has no right or jurisdiction to impose any fine on the plaintiff under his contract with the defendant; and the plaintiff is consequently entitled to payment of the unpaid balance of his salary, $800, with interest and costs of action.

The plaintiff by way of defence to the defendant's counterclaim denies that he rendered himself at any time to such physical condition as to be unable to properly carry out his contract with the defendant and says that he duly carried out his contract with the defendant and denies that the defendant suffered damages alleged, or any damage through fault of the plaintiff, and denies any other allegations contained in paragraph one.

Ottawa Citizen. Oct. 8, 1924:

CLINT BENEDICT ACCEPTED OFFER BY HOCKEY ASSN.
Action is Withdrawn From County Court List. President T. F. Ahearn Issues Statement.

The action brought by Clinton Benedict, former goalkeeper of the Ottawa Hockey team, against the Ottawa Hockey Association, Ltd., and which had been set for trial--the sittings of the county court this week, has been settled out of court by Benedict, accepting $350 which had been paid into court by the club.
Settlement of the case was made when Mr. A.C. Craig, counsel for Mr. Benedict, went to Mr. Redmond Quain, representing the hockey club, and notified him that Benedict was prepared to accept the amount of money that had been deposited in court and which represented the amount of Benedict's last pay check of $300, which instead of cashing he had returned to the officers of the club, and $50 on which there was some uncertainty.

Coincident with the settlement, it was announced that Benedict would be offered a contract at a nominal figure to play this year with the club in order to bind him to the club, but that Joe Ironstone of the Sudbury Wolves would be the regular net custodian of the Ottawa hockey team.

Following the settlement, the following statement was issued by Mr. T.F. Ahearn, president of the Ottawa Hockey Association, Ltd.:

"At a late hour this evening Mr. Clinton Benedict withdrew his action against this club for $800, accepting the salary check refused by him last March 15 before this action started, which check was again formally paid into court some time ago, together with $50 which this club claims to have paid him in cash but for which the club has no receipt.

"The fine of $300 imposed by the club still stands and the balance of the $800 claim is made up of a claim by Benedict which he now renounces.

"This club was prepared to carry on with the case, disputing Benedict's claim to any amount except what the club has always been ready to pay and the additional $50. We had called as witnesses Eddie Gerard, Cy Denneny, Hitchman, Campbell, Dr. Lorne Graham and directors of the club.

"Benedict has been tendered a contract to play this season at a nominal sum in order to bind him to the club, but our regular goaltender this season will not be Benedict but will be Joe Ironstone of the Sudbury Wolves.

"It is only fair to this club to have it clear that this is not a compromise or friendly settlement of this case, but a withdrawal by Benedict just as we were prepared to go on with the case this afternoon.

"This organization is glad that the details of this case did not have to be further gone into, but throughout we have courted the fullest publicity in connection with our relations with Benedict and all our other players. We have felt throughout that any reluctance on our part to fight our goalkeeper's claims might have been misconstrued.

(Signed) T. F. AHEARN, President, Ottawa Hockey Association Ltd."

 

[Michael Farkas]

"Hockey is better now than ever"- Maurice Richard, as quoted in the Buffalo News, 22 December 1965

"I believe hockey is better now than it was, say, 15 years ago. I think the players are bigger and better. And 15 years from now, I think they'll be better than we are now. Everything improves"- Wayne Gretzky, as quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer, 14 January 1982 Page 32

Those are just the first two quotes that showed up when I searched in one of the paper archives.

We have become disciples of Barney Stinson; new is always better.

But that's not what happened. 15 years after 1965 it got worse. I think I was and am one of the leading people here that said "the early 80's is almost as bad as War time hockey"...

In fact, most of the accounts from the early 50's is that the game is easier for skaters (skaters had a tougher time back in the 20's and were better then)...the only exception that's consistent: goaltending. Which jives with film, stats of non-goalies, and the logical trajectory of the position that we have full scope of, etc.

We really like the contemporary opinion until it says something we don't like...over and over again at this point. Rhetorically, how many people have to say: pre-forward pass goaltending wasn't anything special before we unhook from a previously unfounded position that it was something? I can't help but wonder what would happen if this became canon first, instead of the current affirmative action era bias taking place haha

 

[Michael Farkas]

Past his prime Crha, maybe 3rd-5th best CSSR goalie in 1980 (?), became a starter in NHL seemingly almost over night. Czechoslovak goaltending was at its height particularly in 1975-1978 with at least 5 NHL caliber goalies. Holeček faced plenty of internal competition each season, each tournament. Something that Tretiak didn't face at all until Vladimir Myshkin established himself.

Not to take away from the rest of the point, but Jiri Crha was a terrible goalie. He had no business playing in the NHL and was out of it just that quickly (losing his job to Bunny Larocque and another non-NHLer in Vincent Tremblay).

How much do we really know about Tretiak's competition? We can look at Holecek as facing more competition, but maybe it's his inconsistency that brought that to the forefront more. Tretiak - a much better and more consistent goalie - maybe just didn't allow anyone else to surface. Not to mention the whole structure of the national team largely playing domestically.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know anything about the Soviet League. We've never seen a game. Most of us don't speak the language to research it. We know that goalie stats are heavily impacted by team effects, and there was no more than two teams in that league, so no one else could possibly win anything there. But do we actually know that Tretiak had weaker competition? He may have. But how sure can we be?

At least we've seen Dzurilla on a fairly regular basis. Frankly, I really struggled with both of them. I ended up disliking Dzurilla quite a bit more. But the floor of Holecek is scary too. Anyway, we saw Crha - he was horrid, for me. So, if Tretiak's third or fourth in line is better than Crha (which wouldn't be tough) then maybe there was more internal competition than we assume and Tretiak was just too good to let it come to light...theoretically.

 

[DN28]

Not to take away from the rest of the point, but Jiri Crha was a terrible goalie. He had no business playing in the NHL and was out of it just that quickly (losing his job to Bunny Larocque and another non-NHLer in Vincent Tremblay).

Terrible? I don't know.. I didn't really read contemporary accounts, numbers can always lie but.. if he was terrible why no other goalie could post higher SV% in 1980?

Perhaps a hot streak? But why did he play the next season fully as a starter? Seemingly outplaying the rest of Leafs goalies?

How much do we really know about Tretiak's competition? We can look at Holecek as facing more competition, but maybe it's his inconsistency that brought that to the forefront more. Tretiak - a much better and more consistent goalie - maybe just didn't allow anyone else to surface. Not to mention the whole structure of the national team largely playing domestically.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't know anything about the Soviet League. We've never seen a game. Most of us don't speak the language to research it. We know that goalie stats are heavily impacted by team effects, and there was no more than two teams in that league, so no one else could possibly win anything there. But do we actually know that Tretiak had weaker competition? He may have. But how sure can we be?

At least we've seen Dzurilla on a fairly regular basis. Frankly, I really struggled with both of them. I ended up disliking Dzurilla quite a bit more. But the floor of Holecek is scary too. Anyway, we saw Crha - he was horrid, for me. So, if Tretiak's third or fourth in line is better than Crha (which wouldn't be tough) then maybe there was more internal competition than we assume and Tretiak was just too good to let it come to light...theoretically.

We know that Tretiak's competition was terrible enough that Soviet coaches worried to start any other goalie. I mean Kulagin's decision to start Sidelnikov against Poland caused (in part) Soviets to imediatelly start that championship behind the CSSR.

I think those articles, interviews, summaries from 1966, 1975, 1976, I posted earlier today, speak clearly. Soviets themselves lamented their #1 goalie is missing a good #2 through 1976. In the same era (1970s) Czech coaches, writers largely boasted how good their goaltending is. Whatever you think of Holeček, Dzurilla or Crha, if you travel back in time to 1977 Prague and question the level of CSSR goaltending, you'd be laughed at. Pitner & Kostka, later Gut & Starší knew they have options, whom to put in goal.

Meanwhile terrible competition for Tretiak = less of a chance that Tretiak gets benched after one bad goal / one bad game.

Tretiak did get replaced twice eventually. Once his only solid alternative appeared. Vladimir Myshkin took his job at the Challenge Cup 1979 and Olympics 1980. Myskhin did just fine in 1979 and later earned an all-star goalie recognition at Canada Cup 1984. Myshkin first received SPOTY votes in 1975 (age 19) and last votes in 1990 (age 34).

Don't get me wrong. Tretiak was better goalie and in spite of few hiccups, he was definitely very consistent, more so than Holeček. But it was considerably more easier for Holeček to concede the starting role if he just had a bad game. If Tretiak had a bad game, he'd still be given opportunity to start in the next one.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I mean, the numbers were better than the other guys in 1980, But that's because the other guys were basically all tied for last haha

I actually went back and checked on the film for Crha for my list...not even a little bit close.



Poorly positioned, poor anchoring/unclear what his desired crease depth is, on and on...shouldn't have played NHL...maybe WHA, but not NHL (he probably fared ok against the WHA clubs, in fact). But that's what happens when the league plummets into the sewer, guys like this come in and slide around aimlessly for less than a season's worth of games.

Re: Tretiak & comp. Ah, ok fair enough. I hadn't read the Russian side of your post yet to be honest. I should have.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily questioning Czech goaltending so much as I'm questioning what we really know about Soviet goaltending and then trying to use Czech goaltending as the benchmark for comparison - as the latter clearly has guys (with an "S") that could be played.