HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

Just to get help "proofreading" my list further, and if it serves Mr. FarKarakas, so be it.

The "Contemporary with Jose Theodore but retired since a while" group. That feels really random, but it fits the period of netminders that I have more than a passing memory of watching.

IN :
Tim Thomas - no
Patrick Roy - oh yes
Nikolai Khabibulin - yes, with Nabokov
Ed Belfour - yes, with Brimsek types
Miikka Kiprusoff - yes, with Gardiner types
John Vanbiesbrouck - yes, near Ryan Miller
Curtis Joseph - yes, with Bobrovsky
Dominik Hasek - yes, with Sawchuk
Evgeni Nabokov - yes, with Khabibulin
Grant Fuhr - yes, with Vernon
Tom Barrasso - yes, with Fuhr
Martin Brodeur- yes, with Plante
Olaf Kolzig - yes, with Schneider
Mike Richter - ugh...yes. With the other positionally or otherwise challenged bubble guys like Liut
Arturs Irbe - yes, with the fun athletes like Rinne and Turco

NOT RANKED, as of now - no to all, except where noted

Guy Hebert - hmm, worth a look
Jose Theodore
Jon Casey
Felix Potvin
Marty Turco - yes, bubble add, with the fun athletes like Irbe and Rinne
JS Giguère
Ilya Bryzgalov
Tomas Vokoun - yes, bubble add, with the adaptable, but flawed types like Sean Burke
Sean Burke - uhh, that's convenient.
Tommy Salo
Ron Tugnutt
Roman Turek
Chris Osgood
Jeff Hackett
Darren Puppa
Bill Ranford
Mike Vernon - yes, with Fuhr
Kelly Hrudey
Ron Hextall
Kirk McLean
Tim Chevaldae
Chris Terrerri
Andy Moog
Dwayne Roloson
Nicklas Backstrom

On surface level, of that group : Vokoun feels like the closest to the list, while Potvin, Hebert and (of all people) Hrudey made it to second thoughts and look, superficially, like decent candidates.

ARE YOU SERIOUS
Jim Carey
Byron Dafoe

Colored text in the quote...for fun!

I've succumbed to putting Gump Worsley on my list...which isn't the best precedent to set. Six spots left...

 

[Weztex]

Damn I'm late to the party. That's a project I'd very like to participate in. I see there's still lists that haven't been submitted and I could get mine by Wednesday top.

 

[blogofmike]

Now I feel bad about excluding Varlamov.

Saros was a later cut because I'm not a fan of his playoff performances.

I included Shesterkin (I thought pretty high, but apparently not as high as others), because if he retires tomorrow, he isn't very far off Gardiner.

With the addition of Varlamov and Leif Holmqvist, I have just 8 spots left (they will not be going to Ylonen or holy piss, Valtonen...yuck) and I have to ref tonight. so if I have to call on my bubble cross-outs I will...I'm doing one last video sweep to see if anyone doesn't suck and then my list will come in and destroy your aggregation, in good faith...

Have you thought of Kirk McLean?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Personally, the one current netminder that puzzles me the most, and that I'd REALLY like to benefit from 24-25 before ranking, is Linus Ullmark. I can absolutely not touch him as things stand.

It just occurred to me that if you believe that Ullmark is a season away, then Jacob Markstrom should probably be on your list.

It took him a while, he was giving up some bad goals in early part of his career, but he's been a top 5-ish talent for the last several years and now accolades are coming in a bit to follow...

Have you thought of Kirk McLean?

Haha never more than I have today, I'll tell you that much...I have three spots left. It's getting close.

 

[nabby12]

With the addition of Varlamov and Leif Holmqvist, I have just 8 spots left (they will not be going to Ylonen or holy piss, Valtonen...yuck) and I have to ref tonight. so if I have to call on my bubble cross-outs I will...I'm doing one last video sweep to see if anyone doesn't suck and then my list will come in and destroy your aggregation, in good faith...

This is a preliminary top-80 list... There's a LOT more work to do after this. No one here is taking your precious list as gospel, so just send it in already.

The fact that you've been basically living and breathing on this thread for the past two months, and are now three days late in sending in your list is truly unbelievable.

 

[MXD]

It just occurred to me that if you believe that Ullmark is a season away, then Jacob Markstrom should probably be on your list.

It's more "I want to see what he does as the actual starter on a team like Ottawa" than "I want him to have one more season". Both in terms of quality of teams support and of games/minutes played.

Markstrom is someone I really should've put in my "thought about it but decided no". Though he was close-ish : super well perceived lately, BUT :
- Not particularily consistent on a year-to-year basis
- Switch turned on a bit too late

Actually, my barometer for Markstrom was Ryan Miller. His career is, basically, Miller, but upside down, and worse at everything, including playoffs. In a world where Miller is in my 2nd half, I can't justify ranking Markstrom, but I do reckon he's close and I suppose I could reevaluate if I end up ranking guys I don't really want to rank. Thanks for the hint.

 

[bobholly39]

It just occurred to me that if you believe that Ullmark is a season away, then Jacob Markstrom should probably be on your list.

It took him a while, he was giving up some bad goals in early part of his career, but he's been a top 5-ish talent for the last several years and now accolades are coming in a bit to follow...


Haha never more than I have today, I'll tell you that much...I have three spots left. It's getting close.

Do you still really not have Tim Thomas on it at all? Or was that just an exaggeration from a previous post?

I think he sometimes get overrated too - but to not find him a spot in a top 80 seems rather extreme imo.

 

[bobholly39]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

Jonathan Quick
MAF
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Ryan Miller
Andrei Vasilevskyi
Igor Shesterkin
Pekka Rinne
Connor Hellebuyck
Brayden Holtby
Sergei Bobrovsky
Tuukka Rask
Roberto Luongo
Juuse Saros
Semyon Varlamov (who has been moved up)


(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)
- Ilya Sorokin (which I won't rank)
- Corey Crawford
- Craig Anderson
- Cam Ward
- Jaroslav Halak
- Linus Ullmark
- Robin Lehner
- Jakob Markstrom (Playoffs somewhere between "not good" and "incomplete/inconclusive", too a long time to turn the switch on, but super well perceived since the late '10s)
- Ben Bishop (probably good enough for the list with a more substantive career, but 100 less games than Holtby, whose career isn't exactly long in the first place, and generally inferior to him in every aspect as well, requires a decent distance to Holtby; not in same stratosphere as Saros in terms of level)

Please be serious
- Antti Niemi
- Brian Elliott

I didn't rank Sorokin and didn't evn consider it. Great goalie but 3 seasons is just not enough...he'll get there in time, and maybe high, but not as of today. I did rank both Saros and Shesterkin, but was also very strict on them. Lack of longevity more than anything.

I ranked all the ones in your top list. And a couple in second one.

Just to get help "proofreading" my list further, and if it serves Mr. FarKarakas, so be it.

The "Contemporary with Jose Theodore but retired since a while" group. That feels really random, but it fits the period of netminders that I have more than a passing memory of watching.

IN :
Tim Thomas
Patrick Roy
Nikolai Khabibulin
Ed Belfour
Miikka Kiprusoff
John Vanbiesbrouck
Curtis Joseph
Dominik Hasek
Evgeni Nabokov
Grant Fuhr
Tom Barrasso
Martin Brodeur
Olaf Kolzig
Mike Richter
Arturs Irbe

NOT RANKED, as of now

Guy Hebert
Jose Theodore
Jon Casey
Felix Potvin
Marty Turco
JS Giguère
Ilya Bryzgalov
Tomas Vokoun
Sean Burke
Tommy Salo
Ron Tugnutt
Roman Turek
Chris Osgood
Jeff Hackett
Darren Puppa
Bill Ranford
Mike Vernon
Kelly Hrudey
Ron Hextall
Kirk McLean
Tim Chevaldae
Chris Terrerri
Andy Moog
Dwayne Roloson
Nicklas Backstrom

On surface level, of that group : Vokoun feels like the closest to the list, while Potvin, Hebert and (of all people) Hrudey made it to second thoughts and look, superficially, like decent candidates.

ARE YOU SERIOUS
Jim Carey
Byron Dafoe

From that second group I have a few of them ranked....Chris Osgood in particular jumps out though. Not even sure i have him highest in this group - but great career. Strong teams for sure, but lots of consistency in regular season and playoffs.

I can't imagine he wouldn't make my top 80 list.

 

[MXD]

I can't imagine he wouldn't make my top 80 list.

Not in because :
- Skill level meh as far as I'm concerned
- Looked pretty bad when not on a powerhouse
- He's basically a league-average goaltender (and not a league-average starting netminder) in an era of big NHL for 15 years. There's value in that, but if you somehow put him in the exact same context as Felix Potvin, I'm not even sure he makes it to the Kings-stage of his career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Do you still really not have Tim Thomas on it at all? Or was that just an exaggeration from a previous post?

I think he sometimes get overrated too - but to not find him a spot in a top 80 seems rather extreme imo.

The bar for him to exceed is Cechmanek, right? Cechmanek isn't close, so Thomas is even further away than that.

It's not anything to do with Thomas, I just don't want goalies that don't have a good process. Gump Worsley, for instance, is a regrettable add by me...he'll be well into the 70s if he hangs on.

"Top 80 goalies" not "top 80 corpses throwing themselves at pucks" haha

 

[Michael Farkas]

This is a preliminary top-80 list... There's a LOT more work to do after this. No one here is taking your precious list as gospel, so just send it in already.

The fact that you've been basically living and breathing on this thread for the past two months, and are now three days late in sending in your list is truly unbelievable.

There is a lot more work to do...but why spend time working on the wrong goalies? The prelim list is super important as we don't get a chance to talk about goalies that aren't on them. So, having a good evaluation process is key to having a good project. Otherwise, it's garbage in and garbage out.

Re: Being "late", it was declared to be a soft deadline and I've been in communication with the admin the whole time. If it's a not problem for the person running the show, is it really a problem for you?

 

[jigglysquishy]

It's a "top" goalies list, not "best" or "most skilled".

I'm not arguing for Thomas top 40. I'm not arguing for him top 50. But 80 goalies is a lot of names. It's easy to fit in a middling goalie that had wild success. I think our lists are best when everything is taken into account, including both skill level and actual on-ice results.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Well, I think it's up to interpretation intentionally, right? I believe that top heavily leans into skill. And, as I've stated, I think goaltenders are very subject to team effects. So I want the most scalable goalies at the top.

There will be a ton of overlap with how I see it and with "success" or "actual on-ice results", but there will be some differences too. I'm just one list.

*"I'm Just Ken" plays softly in the background*

 

[seventieslord]

Just to get help "proofreading" my list further, and if it serves Mr. FarKarakas, so be it.

The "Contemporary with Jose Theodore but retired since a while" group. That feels really random, but it fits the period of netminders that I have more than a passing memory of watching.

IN :
Tim Thomas
Patrick Roy
Nikolai Khabibulin
Ed Belfour
Miikka Kiprusoff
John Vanbiesbrouck
Curtis Joseph
Dominik Hasek
Evgeni Nabokov
Grant Fuhr
Tom Barrasso
Martin Brodeur
Olaf Kolzig
Mike Richter
Arturs Irbe

NOT RANKED, as of now

Guy Hebert
Jose Theodore
Jon Casey
Felix Potvin
Marty Turco
JS Giguère
Ilya Bryzgalov
Tomas Vokoun
Sean Burke
Tommy Salo
Ron Tugnutt
Roman Turek
Chris Osgood
Jeff Hackett
Darren Puppa
Bill Ranford
Mike Vernon
Kelly Hrudey
Ron Hextall
Kirk McLean
Tim Chevaldae
Chris Terrerri
Andy Moog
Dwayne Roloson
Nicklas Backstrom

On surface level, of that group : Vokoun feels like the closest to the list, while Potvin, Hebert and (of all people) Hrudey made it to second thoughts and look, superficially, like decent candidates.

ARE YOU SERIOUS
Jim Carey
Byron Dafoe

Alright, now that I have my list semi-finalized after the harsh realization that I had to turn 109 names into 80, not 100...

From the 1st list:

Khabibulin and Irbe out, the rest in

From the 2nd list:

Moog is in, comfortably
Osgood is in (maybe too comfortably?)
Hextall is in
Burke, Giguere, Vokoun and Hrudey were very close

 

[seventieslord]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

Jonathan Quick
MAF
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Ryan Miller
Andrei Vasilevskyi
Igor Shesterkin
Pekka Rinne
Connor Hellebuyck
Brayden Holtby
Sergei Bobrovsky
Tuukka Rask
Roberto Luongo
Juuse Saros
Semyon Varlamov (who has been moved up)


(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)
- Ilya Sorokin (which I won't rank)
- Corey Crawford
- Craig Anderson
- Cam Ward
- Jaroslav Halak
- Linus Ullmark
- Robin Lehner
- Jakob Markstrom (Playoffs somewhere between "not good" and "incomplete/inconclusive", too a long time to turn the switch on, but super well perceived since the late '10s)
- Ben Bishop (probably good enough for the list with a more substantive career, but 100 less games than Holtby, whose career isn't exactly long in the first place, and generally inferior to him in every aspect as well, requires a decent distance to Holtby; not in same stratosphere as Saros in terms of level)

Please be serious
- Antti Niemi
- Brian Elliott

And to look at this one again...

From the first list, Holtby and Saaros just missed, Shesterkin further down

From the 2nd list, no one made it. There is just not enough room. Crawford missed by 18 spots and that's the closest any one of them came.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Hextall?!?!

I get the team guys like Osgood and Moog - they aren't for me, but I do understand. What's the case for Hextall though?

Regardless of the answer, maybe I'll walk back my statement about how many names we'll see...maybe there will be some legit variance after all, which I think would be a positive, as it likely means that there are a number of different approaches...

Update: I am one name away!

 

[seventieslord]

Hextall's the one who I wonder about myself.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Update: I am one name away!

All you have to do is write down "Kirk Alan McLean" and you can take a well-deserved break.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I've got Hextall on my list. I've got Osgood. I don't have Moog but he was a very late cut.

My 1990s birth goalies are: Vasilevsky, Hellebucyk, Shesterkin, Saros.

I ran a 10 year lagging count on birth years and I don't appear to be ignoring any era.

 

[Michael Farkas]

All you have to do is write down "Kirk Alan McLean" and you can take a well-deserved break.

Does it even matter? You probably have privileges to edit PMs or some other hackery. I have a sneaking suspicion that a bunch of lists are going to have Kirk McLean on them and no one is gonna remember actually putting him on their list haha

He's actually on the radar for this spot, truth be told. I have time for him. This last spot is..."precious" though.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Does it even matter? You probably have privileges to edit PMs or some other hackery. I have a sneaking suspicion that a bunch of lists are going to have Kirk McLean on them and no one is gonna remember actually putting him on their list haha

He's actually on the radar for this spot, truth be told. I have time for him. This last spot is..."precious" though.

Seven consecutive years of solid performance in a run-and-gun division, some award history, and an unforgettable run in 1994.

(I can't actually view PMs, let alone edit them.)

 

[MXD]

This is a preliminary top-80 list... There's a LOT more work to do after this. No one here is taking your precious list as gospel, so just send it in already.

The fact that you've been basically living and breathing on this thread for the past two months, and are now three days late in sending in your list is truly unbelievable.

C'mon now. This process of collective proofreading probably won't have enormous consequences, but it decently fun, and considering how close margins could be, it could make a difference between whether a guy is being discussed or not : just look at what happened with Varlamov, who is definitely good enough to warrant Round 2 discussion, but who could've missed it altogether with the 30-or-so points (at the very least) that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise

 

[jigglysquishy]

What are we thinking for a start date? This weekend?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Early NHL/split league era
Georges Vezina: 9
Clint Benedict: 6
Hugh Lehman: 2
Hap Holmes: 1

Tough to ask this question because we're talking about "who is the best ever?" so it should be a fairly limited field...but given that Hap Holmes sort of dotted the continent winning Cups, are you (or anyone) surprised that his number isn't called a little bit more in these situations?

EDIT:
Very small inference into Holmes, who might be just out of reach to ever see play...

(Referencing Holmes taking over the IHL team in Cleveland)

...The goalie was Alfie Moore, a jumping jack.

Moore, ironically, wasn’t Holmes’ idea of the best goalie in the world. Alfie was what the trade calls a hand goalminder. At the slightest emergency, he would drop his stick and bat at flying pucks with his tremendous gloves. Holmes had been a stick goalie, who glided across the goal mouth. Incidentally, Holmes’ next goalie here was his own type, Moe Roberts, who stayed on forever, so it seemed.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Holmes vs. Lehman is an interesting subject because one of them rarely won and the other almost always did, and you'd think the reputations would match that, but they don't. I don't have any quotes in front of me, but typically Holmes was seen as a more unspectacular goaler and Lehman a bit more flashy.

Something interesting about Lehman is that the Vancouver Millionaires, when playing under seven-man Coast rules, implemented an early version of the trap:

The Coast rules were crabbed with the fans from the outset because they set 14 players on the ice. To local fans' eyes, that crowds the ice until it looks like a can of worms. They have become educated to the six-man style, and they hate the shinny that usually prevails with seven men a side. The Western game with no offsides in centre ice might have some merit with six-men a side but with seven men a side it looks headless and haphazard. The Westerners utilize a three man and a goalkeeper defence, set out diamond shaped – the head of the wedge drives the puck carrier to either side and the defence man stationed behind and on that side continues to crowd him off into the corner, leaving the other two defence men to hold off comrades who break through to take a pass while Lehmann [sic] has nothing to worry about but a side shot. This four-man defence explains why Coast scores are so low and it leaves three forwards to do the work. Two come back to the blue line nearest Vancouver end, while Taylor loafs up at mid ice. Thus they are ready for a combined attack on a long pass out to Taylor if he is uncovered.

I wondered if, with this system in place, Lehman thrived under Coast rules in Stanley Cup games and then performed poorly in standard eastern rules, but the results were inconclusive. This was probably done elsewhere on the forum but I tallied these manually a while back, as a sort of rudimentary analysis...

Hugh Lehman
West Rules
W/L: 5-7
Goals Allowed: 30
Goals Allowed Per Game: 2.5
Goal Support: 42
Goal Support Per Game: 3.5

East Rules
W/L: 5-7
Goals Allowed: 39
Goals Allowed Per Game: 3.25
Goal Support: 36
Goal Support Per Game: 3

vs.

Hap Holmes
West Rules
W/L: 5-4
Goals Allowed: 35
Goals Allowed Per Game: 3.89
Goal Support: 38
Goal Support Per Game: 4.22

East Rules
W/L: 12-8-1
Goals Allowed: 48
Goals Allowed Per Game: 2.29
Goal Support: 65
Goal Support Per Game: 3.10

Holmes was involved in more shootouts under Coast rules, but really locked it down in six-man hockey. But he was also very fortunate to play almost his entire career behind Jack Walker, a Nighbor disciple.

What are we thinking for a start date? This weekend?

I'd love to get started next Monday and go with the typical system of having voting open on Friday + ending on Sunday night. Just need these last lists to get in... we might wind up getting to 19 now, actually...