ChiTownPhilly
Not Too Soft
Thanks for all the work! It was a fun read poring through this entire thread (as well as the 'pre-1950' thread). The topic has interested me for a long time... and (as can be imagined) I have my own thoughts about this.
General principles- I suppose "career-value" is the Cadillac measure... but obviously there are other factors that I note were (rightly) taken into account e.g.: 1) playoff performance, 2) peak. Concerning the latter, it's sort of ironic that inconsistency, especially at Goaltender position, can yield outsized rewards- like if a nice goalie has an annus mirabilis and helps his team "steal" a Cup. Concerning the former, I see that it carries proper-looking weight... for it explains the relatively high presence of Parent, B. Smith et al. Now, on to the more frequently-discussed placings...
A. Re: Roy over Hašek- I'm okay with this. I know I'm doing some cherry-picking- but keep in mind that Roy carried an all right Montreál team to its last Cup- and Hašek didn't arrive at that level until he backstopped a team sprinkled with future Hall-of-Famers. Now, I recognize that Hašek did amazing things to get Buffalo as close as they did... but somebody has to be second. I think we got it right.
B. Brodeur. I might be speaking too soon- but Brodeur doesn't appear to be doing anything (on the ice
) to hurt his legacy. Is it ridiculous to think that the Devils can make yet another Cup run? On this date (18 Feb. 2013), it seems ridiculous to say they can't. And if they do, Brodeur's placement ought to be re-assessed.
C. Vézina-Gardiner-Benedict- I've taken note of the posts on Vézina that make a special point to do "counter-missionary" work on Benedict. Also (in the interest of full disclosure) I'm a Blackhawks fan- so I'll be unable to entirely detach my emotion from the Charlie Gardiner story. But I have to make a responsible effort. I don't place a lot of weight behind contemporary accounts of Vézina's putative superiority over Benedict. Keep in mind three things- 1) as Thorn & Palmer opine out in the Sabremetrics world, sometimes (like instrument-rated flying) you have to distrust your senses and put your trust in the gauges. The gauges, such as they exist, don't say much that incline against Benedict in a contrast with Vézina. 2) At the time of his ascendency, Benedict was viewed a gimmicky goaltender for leaving his feet, and (not infrequently) considered a borderline-cheater for doing so. This, of course, ran counter to the "more pure" Vézina style. I'm convinced that this colored a good deal of the commentary. 3) There's the obvious halo-effect of a player's early and tragic death. There are clearer examples of this causing folks to overrate athletes... I believe that (in baseball) Roberto Clemente is a particularly infamous one. I believe the effect on Vézina's legacy, though less notable, oughn't be overlooked.
Gardiner vs. the others... a while back, I pored through the statistical record, to the extent that one is present, in search of anything that I could use to place Gardiner on the same plane as Benedict, or Vézina. I was a motivated researcher- wanting to find something that would let me make a case for him. After a spirited search, I didn't come up with anything that would let me say that Gardiner, great though he was, was a superior goaltender to Benedict or Vézina. So- by my reckoning, I'd say Benedict-Vézina-Gardiner.
Again, thanks to all the users that did the 'heavy-lifting' on this.
General principles- I suppose "career-value" is the Cadillac measure... but obviously there are other factors that I note were (rightly) taken into account e.g.: 1) playoff performance, 2) peak. Concerning the latter, it's sort of ironic that inconsistency, especially at Goaltender position, can yield outsized rewards- like if a nice goalie has an annus mirabilis and helps his team "steal" a Cup. Concerning the former, I see that it carries proper-looking weight... for it explains the relatively high presence of Parent, B. Smith et al. Now, on to the more frequently-discussed placings...
A. Re: Roy over Hašek- I'm okay with this. I know I'm doing some cherry-picking- but keep in mind that Roy carried an all right Montreál team to its last Cup- and Hašek didn't arrive at that level until he backstopped a team sprinkled with future Hall-of-Famers. Now, I recognize that Hašek did amazing things to get Buffalo as close as they did... but somebody has to be second. I think we got it right.
B. Brodeur. I might be speaking too soon- but Brodeur doesn't appear to be doing anything (on the ice
) to hurt his legacy. Is it ridiculous to think that the Devils can make yet another Cup run? On this date (18 Feb. 2013), it seems ridiculous to say they can't. And if they do, Brodeur's placement ought to be re-assessed. C. Vézina-Gardiner-Benedict- I've taken note of the posts on Vézina that make a special point to do "counter-missionary" work on Benedict. Also (in the interest of full disclosure) I'm a Blackhawks fan- so I'll be unable to entirely detach my emotion from the Charlie Gardiner story. But I have to make a responsible effort. I don't place a lot of weight behind contemporary accounts of Vézina's putative superiority over Benedict. Keep in mind three things- 1) as Thorn & Palmer opine out in the Sabremetrics world, sometimes (like instrument-rated flying) you have to distrust your senses and put your trust in the gauges. The gauges, such as they exist, don't say much that incline against Benedict in a contrast with Vézina. 2) At the time of his ascendency, Benedict was viewed a gimmicky goaltender for leaving his feet, and (not infrequently) considered a borderline-cheater for doing so. This, of course, ran counter to the "more pure" Vézina style. I'm convinced that this colored a good deal of the commentary. 3) There's the obvious halo-effect of a player's early and tragic death. There are clearer examples of this causing folks to overrate athletes... I believe that (in baseball) Roberto Clemente is a particularly infamous one. I believe the effect on Vézina's legacy, though less notable, oughn't be overlooked.
Gardiner vs. the others... a while back, I pored through the statistical record, to the extent that one is present, in search of anything that I could use to place Gardiner on the same plane as Benedict, or Vézina. I was a motivated researcher- wanting to find something that would let me make a case for him. After a spirited search, I didn't come up with anything that would let me say that Gardiner, great though he was, was a superior goaltender to Benedict or Vézina. So- by my reckoning, I'd say Benedict-Vézina-Gardiner.
Again, thanks to all the users that did the 'heavy-lifting' on this.
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I didn't mean to derail the thread, but since this list was made out of 27 individuals opinions, I do not think it carries too much weight. It is interesting, as I wrote, but I hold more value to the discussions that I read before, and now after when the list was made, than to the actual result.
