ted2019
History of Hockey
I only buy singles now since wax is so high. I can buy what I want and save money at the same time. I might buy some 91-92 upper deck for the fun of it.
Hockey Cards - Part III
- Thread starter Elliman
- Start date
ted2019
History of Hockey
Cubs2024wildcard
Registered User
- Apr 29, 2015
- 8,113
- 2,643
Yeah, but I see four shill bid sellers on that list and it's not a coincidence they have the outlandish bids. The odds the money actually change hands is extremely low.
Pro tip- if there's alot of watchers for card like a Kane PSA 10 which isn't that desirable compared to other sports, chances are it's getting shilled. There's a "Probstein" auction, a notorious shill bidder who has been banned multiple times on eBay and brought back because of the revenue he creates, with 63 watchers. Then another auction with exactly 63 watchers. That's not a coincidence.
Oh the things I could tell you noobs....
blankall
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2007
- 15,129
- 5,534
Just got another update from PSA...my first order is at step 7 of 8. Labels being reviewed for accuracy. Pretty excited. May post the reveal on YouTube.
Cubs2024wildcard
Registered User
- Apr 29, 2015
- 8,113
- 2,643
Wat?
Raw Kane's sell just by looking at the link I provided just a couple days ago. You are all over the place with your speculating.
Where has a Hedman YG sold for 5 bucks recently? Link? Because Hedman Cup rookies at 150 are extremely low and worth investing in at that price and holding.
And yes, I would much rather have a Hedman Cup rookie then a young guns. Young guns are nothing but a trend right now that will die off while the Cup rookies will appreciate for high end sales. I'm not impressed by 1/2k sales nor have I bought into the whole over priced on ebay with a buy it now barnstorm alot of collectors are trying to do to make money on the side.
Kane's YG's sell at 300 raw but one sold for 75 bucks in between. There's no stability in young guns and because of that I wouldn't take an opinion on buying them seriously until there was financial proof there was.
You know, like The Cup rookie market for the /99 high end rookies.
Cubs2024wildcard
Registered User
- Apr 29, 2015
- 8,113
- 2,643
I didn't say it.....
But if you want a laugh check out one of the members box break streams. It is the most toxic stream you could ever watch filled with old men bitching at each other until they shut the chat down. You think it's kids acting like that but it's old ass men.
But don't blame me when your living room starts to stink like man ass and broken dreams. These clowns permiate like an air borne virus.
blankall
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2007
- 15,129
- 5,534
Canadian Game
Registered User
You did well there! The Crosby YG is the one I kick myself over, which sounds similar to you. I was at the Expo years ago and tried trading for one with a dealer. He wanted about $300 worth of my cards but also wanted $50 cash. I was too cheap to add the $50
The Kingslayer
Registered User
Cubs2024wildcard
Registered User
- Apr 29, 2015
- 8,113
- 2,643
OkYou did well there! The Crosby YG is the one I kick myself over, which sounds similar to you. I was at the Expo years ago and tried trading for one with a dealer. He wanted about $300 worth of my cards but also wanted $50 cash. I was too cheap to add the $50
How much are you willing to spend on a Crosby YG?
Raw or graded?
Even I'm getting excited for you, could have had children in the time you waited
blankall
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2007
- 15,129
- 5,534
My first kid is due in July. I submitted two orders in August of 2020.... Good chance the baby comes before the other order lol.Even I'm getting excited for you, could have had children in the time you waited
Ofcourse raw cards sell but a fraction of graded cards.
Young Guns are not a fad they've had a following for decades.
Sure its overproduced garbage but that's what people want and its not changing anytime soon.
I stopped buying cup rookies because there's less roi % gain in them.
Sp authentic is a good middle ground.
Jakub Vrana time !!!
Young Guns are not a fad they've had a following for decades.
Sure its overproduced garbage but that's what people want and its not changing anytime soon.
I stopped buying cup rookies because there's less roi % gain in them.
Sp authentic is a good middle ground.
Jakub Vrana time !!!
Canadian Game
Registered User
Now? The market is much different now versus when his YG was in the $300-$350 range years ago. I haven’t even paid attention to Crosby YGs in the past few years because they’re more than I’d want to spend and I’m okay with not having it (Carey Price is another big one I don’t have and am fine with not owning). I should have jumped on the Crosby when I had a great opportunity but that ship has sailed and I’m not interested in spending a pile of money on a YG. If anything, I think it makes more sense to sell and take advantage of the hot market.
For the most part leading up to the pandemic, I often collected them by either: (A) trading online (did hundreds of trades online for years when shipping costs were lower) or (B) buying boxes upon release and often bought older blaster boxes. Occasionally I bought some of the bigger names when prices were reasonable but I never never paid more than $80 for any YG.
The Kingslayer
Registered User
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
There's a big change in paradigm. The demand across the board is growing, including an expansion in people coming in to the hobby for better or worse, and there's a shift in what people think is/are collectable.
It many ways it's a return to the basics of the hobby. /99 cards are manufactured artificial constructs where as the original collecting for 90% of collectors past and present has been key rookie base cards.
The paradigm has shifted several times, including in hockey.
80's - the last traditional time
For example, in the 80s, people felt OPC hockey cards were it, Topps was the red-head stepchild and at the same time people collected almost equally forward and defensemen (probably due to Bobby Orr's influence) while goalies were considered "too mentally unstable" to be collectable. Wax paper and gum was the norm. Packs were 50 cents or less. A "valuable" card was worth several times a pack, which is like $1 to $5. You could buy a OPC Gretzky RC for like $8 or less. People didn't look for four sharp corners and didn't care too much about centering. Only the front had a blurry photo and airbrushing was a norm that collectors were unaware of. Cards were a kid thing although some young adults continued collecting after puberty.
1990-1992
This is the transition time. First, was Patrick Roy winning the Conn Smythe and the Stanley Cup for Montreal as a rookie, so that the superstar pantheon now had two centers (Gretzky and Lemieux), a winger (Hull) at least one defenseman (Bourque, with over a dozen others emerging) and now a goaltender. Second was Gretzky getting traded to LA, bringing hockey and hockey card collecting to many new fans. Third was the 89-90 sets building on and exceeding the huge popularity of 88-89...this caused OPC to do super-reprintings of 89-90 OPC and causing it to dive in value, and making 89-90 Topps the more valuable set and having the more valuable singles (Sakic RC, Leetch RC, etc.). The rookie class of 89-90 was really big at the time with Craig Janney (Boston's 1C), Kirk McLean (1G for Vancouver), Brian Leetch (1OA future defenseman NYR), and then the emergence of Joe Sakic, Trevor Linden (1C for Vancouver) and Theoren Fleury for Calgary. And many others.
Then the "other" manufacturers took notice...football's Pro Set, baseball's Score and Upper Deck all decided to release sets for the 90-91 season and all of these cards blew away the old OPC cards...even OPC decided Topps sucked and released their own landmark 90-91 O Pee Chee Premier set. The other sports' manufacturers, their fans in the other sports decided to also try buying some new hockey product and the market exploded...expanding hockey collectors plus other sports collectors plus the insane rookie card class made for an explosive environment.
Speaking of the rookie class, the other manufacturers brought their philosophy of what players to include in their sets and overrode Topps' old fashioned way of picking players only after they played in the NHL for a significant amount of time. They first started with players who barely played and 1st round draft picks from the previous year, along with the 1OA from two years ago, Mats Sundin. And then add in guys who weren't even drafted yet...so you have rookies from this year (Roenick, Modano, etc.) and picks from two years ago (Sundin), then last years first rounders (1990, Nolan, Nedved, Jagr, etc., btw, arguably one of the deepest drafts all time), then future 1OA eligible for this year's (1991) draft (Lindros) and then other players not 1OA eligible for 1991 draft (Niedermayer). So player selection/inclusion by the new manufacturers was huge..some players were included in all sets like Roenick, Modano, Brind'Amour and Blake, others were only in just a couple of sets or exclusively in one set...UD had Bure, Falloon, Potvin and Niedermayer in Hi; Score had Lindros, Brodeur and Kolzig; O Pee Chee had Central Red Army/Russian guys like Irbe and Konstantinov; Pro Set was first new set to market and had the first draft pick cards ever (Nolan and Nedved).
(This about this...you had the 1986 1OA - Murphy, 1988 1OA - Modano, the 1989 1OA - Sundin, the 1990 1OA - Nolan and the future 1991 1OA - Lindros all having their RCs in the same year because Topps had been holding back such players...four years worth's best prospects all showing up in the same year's cards. Heck if Turgeon - 87 1OA didn't have an exceptional, immediate impact rookie season in 1988, technically it would have been 6 straight 1OAs as RCs in the 90-91 sets.)
And further expanding the rookie class was not only the Scandinavian countries beginning to export superstars like Sundin and later Forsberg, along with the Canadian and American good ole boys, the 89-90 NHL season was the beginning of the Iron Curtain coming down so both Eastern European players and Russian players came to the west, and that was reflected on 90-91 cardboard. Eastern Europe guys like Jagr and Nedved were appearing on draft pick cards. And there were two major classes of Russians...first were the old guard, future HOFers even without playing in the NHL...we had an entire five man unit in Krutov, Makarov and Larionov (KLM line) plus the blue line of Fetisov and Kasatonov, plus others. Then we had the insanely exciting, best of Russia's future "KLM" line in the forwards Mogilny, Federov and Bure, plus others like Irbe, Konstantinov, Semak, Tatarinov, Khristich, and more. All were solid players but many, especially the youngsters, were the cream of the crop superstars like Fedorov and Bure. Many of these Russian players were drafted using later round "throwaway" picks. Robert Reichel is another example, from the Czech Republic.
In the meantime, while all of these new superstar forwards were coming in and continued to come into future sets 91-92 and 92-93 from all the above countries, guys like Forsberg, Selanne, Palffy, Kovalev, Kozlov and Zelepukin; Daigle, Naslund, Koivu, Guerin and Kariya, there now was a huge amount of goaltenders following in the wake of Patrick Roy and having their rookies in the 90-91 to 92-93 class including future all-time greats in Brodeur and Hasek, plus many notable stars like Richter, Joseph, Belfour, Potvin and Kolzig plus other future starters (Chevaldae, Essensa, Beaupre, Kidd, Terreri, Irbe, etc.). Goaltender collecting went from non-existent to a cool thing in the hobby and culminated in 1993-1994 with Pinnacle's debut of the Masks dufex-finish insert set.
For some reason with all of the exciting goaltender and forward collecting, defensemen took a back seat in this era despite this time being a golden age of HOF defensemen. So many HOF to HOVG defensemen played at this time with many teams sporting two or more future HOFers. Looking back, it was insane.
So during this time, people were busting packs and searching for RCs and superstars like Gretzky, Lemieux plus guys like Yzerman and Roy. They collected singles of base cards, they built hand-collated sets of base cards. Only difference is so many the RCs they chased were often of players who barely played, just drafted or haven't even been drafted yet. And the collectors were electrified by the huge amount of these star rookies to choose from, many of which had huge immediate impact in the NHL.
Most collectors consider this the golden age, including both today's collectors and many, many former collectors. Huge print runs but even more huge demand.
1992-93 to the rest of the 90s
In 92-93, the hockey collector market still was doing the new 90s thing with collecting and collating base cards. But this season, many of the manufacturers such as Upper Deck along with Fleer, Pinnacle and any other company looking to make higher-end sets, greatly expanded the number of insert sets. These "chase" cards already appeared in limited form beginning in 91-92, sets like Hockey Heroes - Brett Hull in UD and SPs and the hologram Award Winners, Bobby Orr (black bordered) inserts, Pro Set CC set, Parkhurst PC# sets and Santa Claus, Pro Set Platinum PC# set, etc. Most of these sets could be completed with just three boxes and some trading or purchasing a few of these cards from dealers. Not a huge deal and made set building a bit more interesting. (On a side note, many of the first ever on-card autograph cards also appeared in these sets, UD, Score and Pro Set had autos.)
But the explosion of these insert sets in 92-93 made it extremely tough for set builders to collect master sets and many collectors quit. Even the few that managed to make all of the series 1 insert sets had to start again when Series 2 or High Numbers update sets came out.
Those collectors quit and they were, in my opinion, the most powerful and important part of the demand in hockey cards, the collector base. Once these chase cards and sets came out, they chased most of the collectors out. First the set collectors, then the casual collectors who had a hard time keeping up. It also REALLY didn't help that in order to pay for these more expensive insert cards, with "bells and whistles" on them, the pack prices all increased by a lot in 92-93, after there was already an initial price increase for the nicer cards that came out in 90-91, along with all of the new manufacturers sets available (with Score coming out with a new Pinnacle brand, Pro Set introducing Platinum and Parkhurst, Fleer coming with Ultra in to the market place in 91-92/92-93 to go with the explosion of makers and brands in 90-91...Topps and O Pee Chee added OPCP and Bowman in 90-91, Stadium Club in 91-92). In 89-90, you had two brands and regionally you probably only had one, either Topps or OPC. By the time of 92-93, not only do you have chase cards, you had over a dozen brands to choose from. Forget about the English and French/Canadian version of brands...
The end result is the golden era was over. The over-competition of increasing prices, chase inserts making set collecting too expensive and the kajillion brands now available, instead of the market expanding and the collector base growing both internally and externally, coming in from other sports like baseball cards, we had a huge reduction in the base and thus the overall demand in the hobby. And the "collectors" that stayed either became gamblers, the casuals or the true collectors had to reduce their focus to limit what they collected to one team or just a few certain players. The gamblers and casuals were the worst...the gamblers, they would only crack packs and boxes hoping for big hits, not for cards of players they collected. The casuals were people who just like to open anything new and had no real loyalty to any manufacturers or brands; they built no sets and had no real PC...their behavior is what triggered the manufacturers to start making dozens of brands, even further diluting collector focus and making things even worse.
Hockey card collectors, the real collectors that stayed, they started having much bigger budgets and paid prices on cards of players they collected that were getting ridiculous. In the past, collectors bought many packs, traded single base cards and put aside any cards of the team/players they collected. They commonly started new player collections for exciting new players that struck their fancy, thus new sets kept them engaged both for new cards of their current PC players but also new players also could capture their fancy. And it was easy for adults to introduce kids to the hobby at 40 cents a pack or $2 a card. Now as the inserts got crazy, from super rare to having game used memorabilia, guys turned from collecting teams and a dozen players to just one or two players. For example, a guy who stayed from 1990 to now in 1996, now cutting his collecting to two players, Brendan Shanahan and Mike Richter, may pay $50 bucks for a Stadium Club 1st Day Issue insert and $80 for a gold Topps Finest refractor of Shanahan, and $150 for a dual Jersey/Stick SPx card, and $40 of of Richter. $320 for just four cards in a year, and that may be just the purchases for January.
You imagine in 1989 being a collector and spending $320 bucks on wax packs?? In a month?? You'd make your dealer jealous of your card budget. Now on a budget like that, introduce kids to collecting...
This went on for the 90s and early 00s. Not to mention during this time for some reason, the rookie classes for about 15 years were quite mediocre. In 1989-90 and 1990-91, the rookie card class featured dozens of future HOFers and all stars...in 91-92 we had two all time great/top 25 players all time from the same class (Lidstrom and Hasek). Then 94-on, we had maybe two to zero HOFer-type players a year. Cards went from jerseys to patches...limited numbering in the thousands to 1/1s...chase autographs to every card in a series as autographed...regular paper stock to plastic and metal, and regular point stock to super thick; from full color in 1991 to glossy on both sides and foil stamped/embossed. While competing in this environment, most manufacturers drove themselves out of business.
In the meantime while we had insane expansion, we also had two strikes that almost closed the NHL altogether.
2005-06
After the strike of 2005, the NHL almost died...yet this created a perfect storm in the hockey card world...once again a return to 90-91 in terms of rookie class. First, an incredible draft in 2003, reminiscent of 1990, plus the TWO generational 1OA talents of Ovechkin and Crosby...Ovechkin and his class coming in from the strike delay plus the remnants of the 2003 class, skipping over 2004-05, coming in to 2005-06. And once again super exciting prospects from the former Soviet countries coming together with North America's best to form an exciting pool.
At this time, all of the manufacturers who might make hockey cards were either out of business or left the sport, or were not chosen by the NHL. Only Upper Deck remained. And UD had re-introduced a sub-brand of their original 90-91 base set...the super-popular and landmark Young Guns.
The re-emergence of Young Guns went from interesting, to popular and now had it's first generational talent...Sidney Crosby. Five years before baseball had 2011 Topps Update Mike Trout, hockey and Upper Deck had 05-06 Upper Deck S1 Sidney Crosby Young Guns. During the 05-06 season, along with the Ovechkin Young Guns, the YG RC had to compete first with many other entry level brands' rookie cards such as Beehive red border, Fleer, Fleer Ultra, Parkhurst, etc. Then as the season progressed, there were mid-tier brand RCs and mid-tier RCs such as Black Diamond quad rookie and SP Game Used RC. Then eventually there were the top tier RCs such as Ultimate Collection /199, Rookie Update labels /199, UD Ice Premieres /99, Fleer Hot Prospects RPA /199 and SP Authentic FW Auto /999. Upper Deck even came out with a new top tier brand, The Cup and the Cup RPA /99. Plus along the way there were certain key inserts/parallels that proved interesting...UD S2 Rookie Ink /87, The Cup RPA Gold /87, SPA FWA Limited patch/auto /100, Victory Black /5, etc.
After years, the hobby settled on four key cards and now it's three choices for Crosby RC...Young Guns, SPA FWA /999, Ice Premieres /99 and The Cup RPA /99, with Ice Premieres starting to leave the party, leaving the big three. This worked for both Sid and Ovechkin, now that in the 2020's, AO has achieved similar status to Crosby as an all-time great after winning a Stanley Cup.
Hockey Today
A scan of Beckett Monthly for hockey shows every month from the late 2010s into the 2020s, every month's top Hot 20 list is 80 to 100% all Young Guns, with a SPA FWA or Cup RPA poking in now and then. During the same era of 2010s, the same top 20 Hot list in Beckett Monthly for baseball had cards like Ruth memorabilia or Bowman/Bowman Chrome auto first RCs. Almost 100% of cards were highly limited and autographed or auto patches. Then around the mid 2010s, the Trout Update RC went to #1 and never looked back, and still is today. What has changed is the other 19 cards, went from chrome, autos, super-limited inserts and memorabilia and is now almost all paper base rookie cards such as base Topps and Topps Update, base Bowman and Heritage paper RCs. Baseball followed hockey in that sense.
(In hockey, the NHL has a rule, only players with NHL regular games can get rookie cards. In baseball, sets like Bowman can picture players not in the MLB yet but only players with MLB games can get a special RC designation on their cards and the hobby treats these RC designation cards as true RCs. So a player may get a first Bowman card one year, then another the next year, then another Bowman another year later, then finally three years later when the prospect makes the majors, he finally gets his RC two to three years later in a brand like Topps or Heritage.) This phenomenon happened in the late 2010s, starting with the Trout 2011 Topps Update set where first, that card became king in the hobby, achieving a crazy triple digits as a base card. Then other notable players from the same set benefited from comparison, such as 2011 Topps Update Jose Altuve. Then other Topps Update sets from other years, those notable players started to go up and other Topps base brands, same thing, such as Kershaw and Aaron Judge. Cody Bellinger's first MLB RC appearing in 2017 Topps Update was like a bit of a flashback to 2011's Trout.
After a year almost overnight, base RCs with no autos, not inserts, no jersey or patch, no serial numbering, became #1 in baseball. Many new collectors could come in and buy the affordable Topps base brands and get good cards so new collectors came. Old school collectors buying 50s to 80s Topps rookie cards of HOFers approved since it was the same thing they were doing...new Topps was the old Topps. And some of those RC collector/investors, especially those that collect PSA graded, are coming in to the other sports like hockey and buying PSA RCs of base and YGs. Three years ago, almost all graded hockey cards went to BGS. Now PSA is more popular than BGS. Paper and base RCs are the king again, both from junk wax era to todays YGs. And much of the trading is digital with a track record that can be traced.
Personally, I think this is great. Instead of a dying hobby, we have a rejuvenated one. It wouldn't surprise me if the cards like the /99 high end RCs were treated like any other junk /100 insert or parallel, which is what they are, really. The Cup RPA /99, not only are these cards ugly, they feature photo shoot patch swatches...since the only thing legit is the on-card autograph, that makes them no better than SPA FWA /999s except there are more than 100 collectors a year trying to build SPA master base sets. Most Cup RPA /99s don't have 99 collectors out there who want those cards. As long as the demand is there, the hobby will grow and have a next generation.
...and I leave you with this. The reason why a US $1 and a $100 bill have any spending value is because everyone knows what they are and what they represent to everyone else...not because they are rare. They are common enough for wide-spread recognition. Same with the key base card RCs look like and what they represent, in desirability. For example in baseball card collecting, people know what a 52 Topps Mantle, a 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson, 1985 Topps Mark McGwire Team USA, 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. and a 2011 Topps Update Mike Trout look like and how many collectors want those cards. In hockey card collecting, people know the 79-80 OPC Wayne Gretzky, the 85-86 OPC Mario Lemieux, the 89-90 Topps Joe Sakic, the 90-91 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr, and the 05-06 UD S1 Sidney Crosby and 05-06 UD S2 Alex Ovechkin Young Guns, and 15-16 UD S1 Connor McDavid YG look like. They are acquirable, therefore they are collectable and thus they are univerally desirable.
And the collector/investors out there have more faith in these little card companies like Topps, Upper Deck and Panini (and Wizards of the Coast and Pokemon company), even PSA and BGS to not reprint those cards, falsely duplicate their processes and ruin their value. Unlike the US and other governments who at times will run the currency presses to pay for their failed policies and foreign wars or manipulate stocks/commodities like gold...
FYI
I did as much research on my own, based on some study back in 1990 and much personal experience, and I documented/both in writing and mentally remembering this information due to my project of the 50 most important/milestone moments in Hockey Cards, transitioning from old school to modern. So hopefully I'm correct in my "recollections" but this is why I remember this sort of thing so clearly.
It many ways it's a return to the basics of the hobby. /99 cards are manufactured artificial constructs where as the original collecting for 90% of collectors past and present has been key rookie base cards.
The paradigm has shifted several times, including in hockey.
80's - the last traditional time
For example, in the 80s, people felt OPC hockey cards were it, Topps was the red-head stepchild and at the same time people collected almost equally forward and defensemen (probably due to Bobby Orr's influence) while goalies were considered "too mentally unstable" to be collectable. Wax paper and gum was the norm. Packs were 50 cents or less. A "valuable" card was worth several times a pack, which is like $1 to $5. You could buy a OPC Gretzky RC for like $8 or less. People didn't look for four sharp corners and didn't care too much about centering. Only the front had a blurry photo and airbrushing was a norm that collectors were unaware of. Cards were a kid thing although some young adults continued collecting after puberty.
1990-1992
This is the transition time. First, was Patrick Roy winning the Conn Smythe and the Stanley Cup for Montreal as a rookie, so that the superstar pantheon now had two centers (Gretzky and Lemieux), a winger (Hull) at least one defenseman (Bourque, with over a dozen others emerging) and now a goaltender. Second was Gretzky getting traded to LA, bringing hockey and hockey card collecting to many new fans. Third was the 89-90 sets building on and exceeding the huge popularity of 88-89...this caused OPC to do super-reprintings of 89-90 OPC and causing it to dive in value, and making 89-90 Topps the more valuable set and having the more valuable singles (Sakic RC, Leetch RC, etc.). The rookie class of 89-90 was really big at the time with Craig Janney (Boston's 1C), Kirk McLean (1G for Vancouver), Brian Leetch (1OA future defenseman NYR), and then the emergence of Joe Sakic, Trevor Linden (1C for Vancouver) and Theoren Fleury for Calgary. And many others.
Then the "other" manufacturers took notice...football's Pro Set, baseball's Score and Upper Deck all decided to release sets for the 90-91 season and all of these cards blew away the old OPC cards...even OPC decided Topps sucked and released their own landmark 90-91 O Pee Chee Premier set. The other sports' manufacturers, their fans in the other sports decided to also try buying some new hockey product and the market exploded...expanding hockey collectors plus other sports collectors plus the insane rookie card class made for an explosive environment.
Speaking of the rookie class, the other manufacturers brought their philosophy of what players to include in their sets and overrode Topps' old fashioned way of picking players only after they played in the NHL for a significant amount of time. They first started with players who barely played and 1st round draft picks from the previous year, along with the 1OA from two years ago, Mats Sundin. And then add in guys who weren't even drafted yet...so you have rookies from this year (Roenick, Modano, etc.) and picks from two years ago (Sundin), then last years first rounders (1990, Nolan, Nedved, Jagr, etc., btw, arguably one of the deepest drafts all time), then future 1OA eligible for this year's (1991) draft (Lindros) and then other players not 1OA eligible for 1991 draft (Niedermayer). So player selection/inclusion by the new manufacturers was huge..some players were included in all sets like Roenick, Modano, Brind'Amour and Blake, others were only in just a couple of sets or exclusively in one set...UD had Bure, Falloon, Potvin and Niedermayer in Hi; Score had Lindros, Brodeur and Kolzig; O Pee Chee had Central Red Army/Russian guys like Irbe and Konstantinov; Pro Set was first new set to market and had the first draft pick cards ever (Nolan and Nedved).
(This about this...you had the 1986 1OA - Murphy, 1988 1OA - Modano, the 1989 1OA - Sundin, the 1990 1OA - Nolan and the future 1991 1OA - Lindros all having their RCs in the same year because Topps had been holding back such players...four years worth's best prospects all showing up in the same year's cards. Heck if Turgeon - 87 1OA didn't have an exceptional, immediate impact rookie season in 1988, technically it would have been 6 straight 1OAs as RCs in the 90-91 sets.)
And further expanding the rookie class was not only the Scandinavian countries beginning to export superstars like Sundin and later Forsberg, along with the Canadian and American good ole boys, the 89-90 NHL season was the beginning of the Iron Curtain coming down so both Eastern European players and Russian players came to the west, and that was reflected on 90-91 cardboard. Eastern Europe guys like Jagr and Nedved were appearing on draft pick cards. And there were two major classes of Russians...first were the old guard, future HOFers even without playing in the NHL...we had an entire five man unit in Krutov, Makarov and Larionov (KLM line) plus the blue line of Fetisov and Kasatonov, plus others. Then we had the insanely exciting, best of Russia's future "KLM" line in the forwards Mogilny, Federov and Bure, plus others like Irbe, Konstantinov, Semak, Tatarinov, Khristich, and more. All were solid players but many, especially the youngsters, were the cream of the crop superstars like Fedorov and Bure. Many of these Russian players were drafted using later round "throwaway" picks. Robert Reichel is another example, from the Czech Republic.
In the meantime, while all of these new superstar forwards were coming in and continued to come into future sets 91-92 and 92-93 from all the above countries, guys like Forsberg, Selanne, Palffy, Kovalev, Kozlov and Zelepukin; Daigle, Naslund, Koivu, Guerin and Kariya, there now was a huge amount of goaltenders following in the wake of Patrick Roy and having their rookies in the 90-91 to 92-93 class including future all-time greats in Brodeur and Hasek, plus many notable stars like Richter, Joseph, Belfour, Potvin and Kolzig plus other future starters (Chevaldae, Essensa, Beaupre, Kidd, Terreri, Irbe, etc.). Goaltender collecting went from non-existent to a cool thing in the hobby and culminated in 1993-1994 with Pinnacle's debut of the Masks dufex-finish insert set.
For some reason with all of the exciting goaltender and forward collecting, defensemen took a back seat in this era despite this time being a golden age of HOF defensemen. So many HOF to HOVG defensemen played at this time with many teams sporting two or more future HOFers. Looking back, it was insane.
So during this time, people were busting packs and searching for RCs and superstars like Gretzky, Lemieux plus guys like Yzerman and Roy. They collected singles of base cards, they built hand-collated sets of base cards. Only difference is so many the RCs they chased were often of players who barely played, just drafted or haven't even been drafted yet. And the collectors were electrified by the huge amount of these star rookies to choose from, many of which had huge immediate impact in the NHL.
Most collectors consider this the golden age, including both today's collectors and many, many former collectors. Huge print runs but even more huge demand.
1992-93 to the rest of the 90s
In 92-93, the hockey collector market still was doing the new 90s thing with collecting and collating base cards. But this season, many of the manufacturers such as Upper Deck along with Fleer, Pinnacle and any other company looking to make higher-end sets, greatly expanded the number of insert sets. These "chase" cards already appeared in limited form beginning in 91-92, sets like Hockey Heroes - Brett Hull in UD and SPs and the hologram Award Winners, Bobby Orr (black bordered) inserts, Pro Set CC set, Parkhurst PC# sets and Santa Claus, Pro Set Platinum PC# set, etc. Most of these sets could be completed with just three boxes and some trading or purchasing a few of these cards from dealers. Not a huge deal and made set building a bit more interesting. (On a side note, many of the first ever on-card autograph cards also appeared in these sets, UD, Score and Pro Set had autos.)
But the explosion of these insert sets in 92-93 made it extremely tough for set builders to collect master sets and many collectors quit. Even the few that managed to make all of the series 1 insert sets had to start again when Series 2 or High Numbers update sets came out.
Those collectors quit and they were, in my opinion, the most powerful and important part of the demand in hockey cards, the collector base. Once these chase cards and sets came out, they chased most of the collectors out. First the set collectors, then the casual collectors who had a hard time keeping up. It also REALLY didn't help that in order to pay for these more expensive insert cards, with "bells and whistles" on them, the pack prices all increased by a lot in 92-93, after there was already an initial price increase for the nicer cards that came out in 90-91, along with all of the new manufacturers sets available (with Score coming out with a new Pinnacle brand, Pro Set introducing Platinum and Parkhurst, Fleer coming with Ultra in to the market place in 91-92/92-93 to go with the explosion of makers and brands in 90-91...Topps and O Pee Chee added OPCP and Bowman in 90-91, Stadium Club in 91-92). In 89-90, you had two brands and regionally you probably only had one, either Topps or OPC. By the time of 92-93, not only do you have chase cards, you had over a dozen brands to choose from. Forget about the English and French/Canadian version of brands...
The end result is the golden era was over. The over-competition of increasing prices, chase inserts making set collecting too expensive and the kajillion brands now available, instead of the market expanding and the collector base growing both internally and externally, coming in from other sports like baseball cards, we had a huge reduction in the base and thus the overall demand in the hobby. And the "collectors" that stayed either became gamblers, the casuals or the true collectors had to reduce their focus to limit what they collected to one team or just a few certain players. The gamblers and casuals were the worst...the gamblers, they would only crack packs and boxes hoping for big hits, not for cards of players they collected. The casuals were people who just like to open anything new and had no real loyalty to any manufacturers or brands; they built no sets and had no real PC...their behavior is what triggered the manufacturers to start making dozens of brands, even further diluting collector focus and making things even worse.
Hockey card collectors, the real collectors that stayed, they started having much bigger budgets and paid prices on cards of players they collected that were getting ridiculous. In the past, collectors bought many packs, traded single base cards and put aside any cards of the team/players they collected. They commonly started new player collections for exciting new players that struck their fancy, thus new sets kept them engaged both for new cards of their current PC players but also new players also could capture their fancy. And it was easy for adults to introduce kids to the hobby at 40 cents a pack or $2 a card. Now as the inserts got crazy, from super rare to having game used memorabilia, guys turned from collecting teams and a dozen players to just one or two players. For example, a guy who stayed from 1990 to now in 1996, now cutting his collecting to two players, Brendan Shanahan and Mike Richter, may pay $50 bucks for a Stadium Club 1st Day Issue insert and $80 for a gold Topps Finest refractor of Shanahan, and $150 for a dual Jersey/Stick SPx card, and $40 of of Richter. $320 for just four cards in a year, and that may be just the purchases for January.
You imagine in 1989 being a collector and spending $320 bucks on wax packs?? In a month?? You'd make your dealer jealous of your card budget. Now on a budget like that, introduce kids to collecting...
This went on for the 90s and early 00s. Not to mention during this time for some reason, the rookie classes for about 15 years were quite mediocre. In 1989-90 and 1990-91, the rookie card class featured dozens of future HOFers and all stars...in 91-92 we had two all time great/top 25 players all time from the same class (Lidstrom and Hasek). Then 94-on, we had maybe two to zero HOFer-type players a year. Cards went from jerseys to patches...limited numbering in the thousands to 1/1s...chase autographs to every card in a series as autographed...regular paper stock to plastic and metal, and regular point stock to super thick; from full color in 1991 to glossy on both sides and foil stamped/embossed. While competing in this environment, most manufacturers drove themselves out of business.
In the meantime while we had insane expansion, we also had two strikes that almost closed the NHL altogether.
2005-06
After the strike of 2005, the NHL almost died...yet this created a perfect storm in the hockey card world...once again a return to 90-91 in terms of rookie class. First, an incredible draft in 2003, reminiscent of 1990, plus the TWO generational 1OA talents of Ovechkin and Crosby...Ovechkin and his class coming in from the strike delay plus the remnants of the 2003 class, skipping over 2004-05, coming in to 2005-06. And once again super exciting prospects from the former Soviet countries coming together with North America's best to form an exciting pool.
At this time, all of the manufacturers who might make hockey cards were either out of business or left the sport, or were not chosen by the NHL. Only Upper Deck remained. And UD had re-introduced a sub-brand of their original 90-91 base set...the super-popular and landmark Young Guns.
The re-emergence of Young Guns went from interesting, to popular and now had it's first generational talent...Sidney Crosby. Five years before baseball had 2011 Topps Update Mike Trout, hockey and Upper Deck had 05-06 Upper Deck S1 Sidney Crosby Young Guns. During the 05-06 season, along with the Ovechkin Young Guns, the YG RC had to compete first with many other entry level brands' rookie cards such as Beehive red border, Fleer, Fleer Ultra, Parkhurst, etc. Then as the season progressed, there were mid-tier brand RCs and mid-tier RCs such as Black Diamond quad rookie and SP Game Used RC. Then eventually there were the top tier RCs such as Ultimate Collection /199, Rookie Update labels /199, UD Ice Premieres /99, Fleer Hot Prospects RPA /199 and SP Authentic FW Auto /999. Upper Deck even came out with a new top tier brand, The Cup and the Cup RPA /99. Plus along the way there were certain key inserts/parallels that proved interesting...UD S2 Rookie Ink /87, The Cup RPA Gold /87, SPA FWA Limited patch/auto /100, Victory Black /5, etc.
After years, the hobby settled on four key cards and now it's three choices for Crosby RC...Young Guns, SPA FWA /999, Ice Premieres /99 and The Cup RPA /99, with Ice Premieres starting to leave the party, leaving the big three. This worked for both Sid and Ovechkin, now that in the 2020's, AO has achieved similar status to Crosby as an all-time great after winning a Stanley Cup.
Hockey Today
A scan of Beckett Monthly for hockey shows every month from the late 2010s into the 2020s, every month's top Hot 20 list is 80 to 100% all Young Guns, with a SPA FWA or Cup RPA poking in now and then. During the same era of 2010s, the same top 20 Hot list in Beckett Monthly for baseball had cards like Ruth memorabilia or Bowman/Bowman Chrome auto first RCs. Almost 100% of cards were highly limited and autographed or auto patches. Then around the mid 2010s, the Trout Update RC went to #1 and never looked back, and still is today. What has changed is the other 19 cards, went from chrome, autos, super-limited inserts and memorabilia and is now almost all paper base rookie cards such as base Topps and Topps Update, base Bowman and Heritage paper RCs. Baseball followed hockey in that sense.
(In hockey, the NHL has a rule, only players with NHL regular games can get rookie cards. In baseball, sets like Bowman can picture players not in the MLB yet but only players with MLB games can get a special RC designation on their cards and the hobby treats these RC designation cards as true RCs. So a player may get a first Bowman card one year, then another the next year, then another Bowman another year later, then finally three years later when the prospect makes the majors, he finally gets his RC two to three years later in a brand like Topps or Heritage.) This phenomenon happened in the late 2010s, starting with the Trout 2011 Topps Update set where first, that card became king in the hobby, achieving a crazy triple digits as a base card. Then other notable players from the same set benefited from comparison, such as 2011 Topps Update Jose Altuve. Then other Topps Update sets from other years, those notable players started to go up and other Topps base brands, same thing, such as Kershaw and Aaron Judge. Cody Bellinger's first MLB RC appearing in 2017 Topps Update was like a bit of a flashback to 2011's Trout.
After a year almost overnight, base RCs with no autos, not inserts, no jersey or patch, no serial numbering, became #1 in baseball. Many new collectors could come in and buy the affordable Topps base brands and get good cards so new collectors came. Old school collectors buying 50s to 80s Topps rookie cards of HOFers approved since it was the same thing they were doing...new Topps was the old Topps. And some of those RC collector/investors, especially those that collect PSA graded, are coming in to the other sports like hockey and buying PSA RCs of base and YGs. Three years ago, almost all graded hockey cards went to BGS. Now PSA is more popular than BGS. Paper and base RCs are the king again, both from junk wax era to todays YGs. And much of the trading is digital with a track record that can be traced.
Personally, I think this is great. Instead of a dying hobby, we have a rejuvenated one. It wouldn't surprise me if the cards like the /99 high end RCs were treated like any other junk /100 insert or parallel, which is what they are, really. The Cup RPA /99, not only are these cards ugly, they feature photo shoot patch swatches...since the only thing legit is the on-card autograph, that makes them no better than SPA FWA /999s except there are more than 100 collectors a year trying to build SPA master base sets. Most Cup RPA /99s don't have 99 collectors out there who want those cards. As long as the demand is there, the hobby will grow and have a next generation.
...and I leave you with this. The reason why a US $1 and a $100 bill have any spending value is because everyone knows what they are and what they represent to everyone else...not because they are rare. They are common enough for wide-spread recognition. Same with the key base card RCs look like and what they represent, in desirability. For example in baseball card collecting, people know what a 52 Topps Mantle, a 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson, 1985 Topps Mark McGwire Team USA, 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey Jr. and a 2011 Topps Update Mike Trout look like and how many collectors want those cards. In hockey card collecting, people know the 79-80 OPC Wayne Gretzky, the 85-86 OPC Mario Lemieux, the 89-90 Topps Joe Sakic, the 90-91 OPC Premier Jaromir Jagr, and the 05-06 UD S1 Sidney Crosby and 05-06 UD S2 Alex Ovechkin Young Guns, and 15-16 UD S1 Connor McDavid YG look like. They are acquirable, therefore they are collectable and thus they are univerally desirable.
And the collector/investors out there have more faith in these little card companies like Topps, Upper Deck and Panini (and Wizards of the Coast and Pokemon company), even PSA and BGS to not reprint those cards, falsely duplicate their processes and ruin their value. Unlike the US and other governments who at times will run the currency presses to pay for their failed policies and foreign wars or manipulate stocks/commodities like gold...
FYI
I did as much research on my own, based on some study back in 1990 and much personal experience, and I documented/both in writing and mentally remembering this information due to my project of the 50 most important/milestone moments in Hockey Cards, transitioning from old school to modern. So hopefully I'm correct in my "recollections" but this is why I remember this sort of thing so clearly.
How does everyone feel in investing in Dahlin at this point in time?
His BGS 9.5 Young Gun is selling for $55-80 on eBay right now. A PSA 10 is $100-120. If the Sabres ever get it together, or if he wins a Norris or two there should be a nice return on the investment. Anyone else going in on Dahlin right now?
His BGS 9.5 Young Gun is selling for $55-80 on eBay right now. A PSA 10 is $100-120. If the Sabres ever get it together, or if he wins a Norris or two there should be a nice return on the investment. Anyone else going in on Dahlin right now?
Drew doughty has cups and norris and his YG is $20 in a more short printed year.
So yeah...
They only Defenseman I'd put any money in right now is Makar. He's probably going to get a Norris nomination this year, Colorado is going to go on a run. His value will only go up if they win the cup.
Yeah, Im starting to see defense men aren't all that collectible. Defense men like Doughty, Karlson, Hedman, etc will trade for less than most notable forwards [and goalies for that matter].
Makar I was interested in, but his buy in is already fairly high. A PSA 10 of his YG is trading around $375-400 right now [which is already more than most defense men].
I'm going to look into a BGS 9.5 Makar [or perhaps an ungraded and buy a few].
I've personally been collecting Adam Fox for a year now, and he has shot up substantially recently as a defense man.
The Kingslayer
Registered User
Makar and Hughes Young Guns are the highest i've ever seen for dman. There was a time you could get Hedman for $15 like 2 yrs ago. His cards gone up but I dont even think its as high as those two are.
I used to collect a bunch as a kid, but stopped for a while as I went through high school and got a bit older. Then about 5 years ago, I got back into the hobby. I got lucky, kinda like perfect timing for me considering I went on a Young Guns collecting spree before the recent hockey card boom. I bought a Hedman YG a few years ago for something like 12 bucks, now it goes for about $100.
I have a ridiculous amount of young guns. Obviously missing a ton of huge names because they are simply too expensive, but I have some good ones in my collection. I have "both" Datsyuk YGs, there are 2 different pictures, one was for retail and one was for hobby. Those are going for high prices around the internet.
I also have a Draisaitl YG which is obviously going through the roof right now. I'm thinking of selling it considering they are going daily on ebay for $500+.
Canadian Game
Registered User
Defencemen generally haven’t been as high demand among card collectors. The demand is often towards the top scorers and goalies, especially with big market teams. Rookie values for guys like Doughty and Karlsson were once higher years ago but those have come down over time. It’s important to understand this happens with most players over time.
Going forward, I could see Heiskanen, Fox, and Dobson becoming higher demand. Heiskanen had a great playoff last year and his cards went up for a bit, and Fox has already had a nice increase. Thankfully Fox was one of the players I decided to bank on and bought some of his cards cheap a year ago.
Other dmen who I think have potential are:
Dahlin - slow year but he’s producing more lately. Success in playoffs would generate demand
Romanov - exciting rookie with Montreal. Not much more to say. When production increases, the rookies take off (see Adam Fox)
Bouchard - it all depends on his development and offensive production in Edmonton
Chabot - been around a few years but Ottawa is on the up and he’s only 24.
Ty Smith - young rookie having a great season. Unfortunately the Devils don’t get a ton of hobby love, but like Ottawa, they’re young and should be on the up
Those are just a few who I think have potential. Personally, I’m more of a prospector like to bank on specific players early. Not every decision is successful but overall it works for me and I enjoy it. My latest one was Jason Robertson, which his YGs were $2 a few months ago. I’ve watched him a ton in the OHL always liked how he played, so I went with my gut and bought a handful. There are always some who don’t pan out as hoped. So far Mikheyev is looking like he might fall in that category unless he surprises in the playoffs.
Going forward, I could see Heiskanen, Fox, and Dobson becoming higher demand. Heiskanen had a great playoff last year and his cards went up for a bit, and Fox has already had a nice increase. Thankfully Fox was one of the players I decided to bank on and bought some of his cards cheap a year ago.
Other dmen who I think have potential are:
Dahlin - slow year but he’s producing more lately. Success in playoffs would generate demand
Romanov - exciting rookie with Montreal. Not much more to say. When production increases, the rookies take off (see Adam Fox)
Bouchard - it all depends on his development and offensive production in Edmonton
Chabot - been around a few years but Ottawa is on the up and he’s only 24.
Ty Smith - young rookie having a great season. Unfortunately the Devils don’t get a ton of hobby love, but like Ottawa, they’re young and should be on the up
Those are just a few who I think have potential. Personally, I’m more of a prospector like to bank on specific players early. Not every decision is successful but overall it works for me and I enjoy it. My latest one was Jason Robertson, which his YGs were $2 a few months ago. I’ve watched him a ton in the OHL always liked how he played, so I went with my gut and bought a handful. There are always some who don’t pan out as hoped. So far Mikheyev is looking like he might fall in that category unless he surprises in the playoffs.
Ad
Latest posts
-
-
Speculation: Another year of this Bluc **** (The 2024-25 season thread)- Latest: Peter James Bond III
-
-
-
