GDT: HNIC: Rangers visit Toronto - 10/19/24 - 7PM EST SN/CBC

[arso40]

Sure, he has.

But people don't sit and count all the good passes or zone denials he does. But if he makes one ill-placed pass, or if he gets bumped off a puck (like many D do), he's crap.

No one registers it if it isn't offensive or a big hit, hence why defensemen get eaten alive playing here.

Until he shows his coach that he shouldn’t take him out it’ll continue to be like this he’s better than Timmins but at 2 mill more he has to show the clear separation on a nightly basis he has to play aggressive he can’t just rely on skill not with this coach

 

[BrannigansLaw]

We always seem to match up well against the Rags for some reason so I’m expecting a win.

Real tests will be the usual suspects of Boston and Florida or any team with a heavy forecheck.

 

[arso40]

No he really hasn't.

He's not good defensively

He's not good offensively

He's not physical

He's had trouble cracking the playoff lineup for years.

You say nobody registeres if he's not offensive, problem is that's not true.

Go look at how many points Chris Tanev has tell me what you find.

Most of us love Chris Tanev.

Go look at Steven Lorentz, most of us love Steven Lorentz.

Lilly simply isn't good enough at anything

I don’t agree at all

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I don’t agree at all

Prove me wrong.

 

[arso40]

Prove me wrong.

He’s good defensively and he’s good offensively he’s a good two way defencemen he needs to be more physical and aggressive in a line up like this unfortunately he won’t shine until someone like Rielly isn’t in the line up and defensively he’s the least physical but he’s not a bad defender at all your not seeing well if you think that

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

He’s good defensively and he’s good offensively he’s a good two way defencemen he needs to be more physical and aggressive in a line up like this unfortunately he won’t shine until someone like Rielly isn’t in the line up and defensively he’s the least physical but he’s not a bad defender at all your not seeing well if you think that

His career high in points is 23 how is he good offensively?

How is he good defensively? He's never been able to stick in the playoff lineup, and now he can't even get into the regular season lineup over Conor Timmins, if he was as good defensively as you claim Conor Timmins would not be playing over him.

He's not physical at all so he doesn't bring that.

He was the worst player on the ice against the kings.

You know I use to call Josh Levio Josh "do nothing" Levio because Josh Levio didn't score, didn't hit, didn't fight, didn't block shots, didn't PK, wasn't on the PP, didn't win board battles, Josh Levio literally did NOTHING.

Lilly is the defense version of that.

He doesn't score

He doesn't hit

He doesn't fight

He doesn't block shots

He's not on the PK.

He's not on the PP.

He doesn't win board battles.

He does literally NOTHING except It's worse with Lilly because Levio didn't make 3 million bucks to do literally nothing.

Lilly does he's getting 3 million bucks a year essentially for free.

 

[Maplebeasts]

His career high in points is 23 how is he good offensively?

How is he good defensively? He's never been able to stick in the playoff lineup, and now he can't even get into the regular season lineup over Conor Timmins, if he was as good defensively as you claim Conor Timmins would not be playing over him.

He's not physical at all so he doesn't bring that.

He was the worst player on the ice against the kings.

You know I use to call Josh Levio Josh "do nothing" Levio because Josh Levio didn't score, didn't hit, didn't fight, didn't block shots, didn't PK, wasn't on the PP, didn't win board battles, Josh Levio literally did NOTHING.

Lilly is the defense version of that.

He doesn't score

He doesn't hit

He doesn't fight

He doesn't block shots

He's not on the PK.

He's not on the PP.

He doesn't win board battles.

He does literally NOTHING except It's worse with Lilly because Levio didn't make 3 million bucks to do literally nothing.

Lilly does he's getting 3 million bucks a year essentially for free.

23 points is good when you’re a defensemen who doesn’t play on the power play and only played 55 games. You said so much here yet proved nothing other than you don’t know what you are talking about. He wasn’t great against the Kings but has played 200 NHL games, most of which where he was statistically a very good player. It’s not really his fault Keefe was idiot enough to play Lyubushkin over him. This organization has proven itself incompetent at developing defensemen.

It’s ridiculous how much rope management and coaching has given to veterans who underperform like Holl, Brodie last year, Lyubushkin vs giving promising young dmen minutes and giving them a chance to grow. It happened to Sandin, it’s happening to Liljegren and it’s going to happen to Niemela.

This team has no future on the blue line because all of our defensemen are either aging or can’t move the puck worth shit. Add in a coach and GM who are size queens that appear to love physicality over actual skill and this team’s window is going to close the second Tanev falls off.

 

[Maplebeasts]

He might feel that way for sure. Remember not a single teammate rushed to his defense after Marchand intentionally hurt him last season. He might just be thinking fk these guys I'm not risking my health for them. Maybe he is looking for a fresh start elsewhere. Which is fine. We need a tougher player to slot in that bottom pairing role.

We have Benoit and Hakanpa when he’s healthy.

Not surprised Timmins draws back in for Lilijgren.

You should be. Timmins sucks balls and has been far and away a worse defensemen over their entire careers to date.

 

[Maplebeasts]

I can't see Liljegren doing anything wherever he goes.

He'll go the way of Travis Dermott and Rasmus Sandin. His fans love him but there's not much there.

He is the only one out of the three that played well when he got top 4 minutes. It’s going to be a sad day when this team trades him for peanuts and he goes on to be a top 4 defensemen for an org that isn’t deathly afraid of playing young defensemen.

 

[Kurtz]

He is the only one out of the three that played well when he got top 4 minutes. It’s going to be a sad day when this team trades him for peanuts and he goes on to be a top 4 defensemen for an org that isn’t deathly afraid of playing young defensemen.

What would you say his strengths as a dman are?

 

[LaPlante94]

He is the only one out of the three that played well when he got top 4 minutes. It’s going to be a sad day when this team trades him for peanuts and he goes on to be a top 4 defensemen for an org that isn’t deathly afraid of playing young defensemen.

We heard this about Holl a few years ago and his only argument by a lot of people were his analytics/micro stats or whatever people call them were good just like Liljegrens. Is Liljegren bad? No, but he's also not as good as some claim to be as well and doesn't fit the style of play the coach and GM want us to play. If he's as good as some claim he should be able to get us a late first round pick pretty easily then.

 

[Maplebeasts]

What would you say his strengths as a dman are?

He is the best defensemen with the puck out of any of our bottom pair options while statistically being the best over his career at generating positive results in terms of expected goal and actual goal differential. Unlike Dermott and Sandin he was still statistically very good when got to play top 4 minutes. The power play last year looked incredible and performed when he was running it during Rielly’s absence.

He’s not “tough” but you need a balance of puck movers and stay at home guys on the blue line. A bottom pair of Benoit and Hakanpa will get exposed simply because neither one can make a pass out of the zone or carry it.

Benoit is already playing low key atrocious hockey this year and taking penalties left and right while Timmins has been unplayable without having nearly 200 games of good play to fall back on. Basically Liljegren provides a lot of what Timmins does but is a significantly better defensive player that is actually able to translate higher into the line-up when given the chance.

We heard this about Holl a few years ago and his only argument by a lot of people were his analytics/micro stats or whatever people call them were good just like Liljegrens. Is Liljegren bad? No, but he's also not as good as some claim to be as well and doesn't fit the style of play the coach and GM want us to play. If he's as good as some claim he should be able to get us a late first round pick pretty easily then.

You can’t get a return like that when you don’t play him. I agree he should be traded if not for the fact Treliving and Berube don’t see him as a fit. But benching him for Timmins is just laughable and hard to defend merit wise or asset management wise. The smart thing is to play him and let him build value first.

 

[LaPlante94]

He is the best defensemen with the puck out of any of our bottom pair options while statistically being the best over his career at generating positive results in terms of expected goal and actual goal differential. Unlike Dermott and Sandin he was still statistically very good when got to play top 4 minutes. The power play last year looked incredible and performed when he was running it during Rielly’s absence.

He’s not “tough” but you need a balance of puck movers and stay at home guys on the blue line. A bottom pair of Benoit and Hakanpa will get exposed simply because neither one can make a pass out of the zone or carry it.

Benoit is already playing low key atrocious hockey this year and taking penalties left and right while Timmins has been unplayable without having nearly 200 games of good play to fall back on. Basically Liljegren provides a lot of what Timmins does but is a significantly better defensive player that is actually able to translate higher into the line-up when given the chance.


You can’t get a return like that when you don’t play him. I agree he should be traded if not for the fact Treliving and Berube don’t see him as a fit. But benching him for Timmins is just laughable and hard to defend merit wise or asset management wise. The smart thing is to play him and let him build value first.

Timmins is a bigger body who can clear the net a little better and break up plays a long the boards while being better offensively and makes the same mistakes as Liljegren and for 2 million less. I'm not a Timmins fan at all but there's a reason he plays over Liljegren. Playing Liljegren at this point would probably lower his value. Let some GM who only looks at analytics overpay for him and maybe be a better fit and make a good long career elsewhere.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Timmins is a bigger body who can clear the net a little better and break up plays a long the boards while being better offensively and makes the same mistakes as Liljegren and for 2 million less. I'm not a Timmins fan at all but there's a reason he plays over Liljegren. Playing Liljegren at this point would probably lower his value. Let some GM who only looks at analytics overpay for him and maybe be a better fit and make a good long career elsewhere.

There has never been a point in their careers where Timmins was the better player and nearly any stat out there proves it. Timmins is 6”4 but also not great at clearing out the front of the net and is not really better offensively either. He also has been significantly more injury prone since going pro. They both have about the same offensive production by ppg in their careers, but Timmins has much smaller sample size working for him. Timmins is a significantly weaker defensive player statistically. There is zero reason to play him over Liljegren other than the fact he’s 6”4 and Berube is a size queen.

 

[LaPlante94]

Since he's joined the team he has outscored Liljegren in less ice time. Liljegren career high is 23 points in 55 games averaging almost 20 mins of ice time a game that season which isn't too bad, but if Rielly doesn't get hurt and he doesn't get all that PP1 time then he probably doesn't even break 20 points. He has 1 point in the 3 playoff runs he's played in while Timmins has yet to play a playoff game for us. Top 4 is settled now with OEL and Tanev and Timmins makes more plays offensively so it's pretty obvious why he's playing over Lilli and not because he's 6'2.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Since he's joined the team he has outscored Liljegren in less ice time. Liljegren career high is 23 points in 55 games averaging almost 20 mins of ice time a game that season which isn't too bad, but if Rielly doesn't get hurt and he doesn't get all that PP1 time then he probably doesn't even break 20 points. He has 1 point in the 3 playoff runs he's played in while Timmins has yet to play a playoff game for us. Top 4 is settled now with OEL and Tanev and Timmins makes more plays offensively so it's pretty obvious why he's playing over Lilli and not because he's 6'2.

Who cares if he is the same or slightly better than Liljegren offensively if he is inarguably a much worse defensive player, especially when we are talking about who is going to fill a bottom pairing role? It’s not like Timmins is going to get any reps on the power play with OEL and Rielly already playing. Timmins is a clear downgrade.

 

[LaPlante94]

Who cares if he is the same or slightly better than Liljegren offensively if he is inarguably a much worse defensive player, especially when we are talking about who is going to fill a bottom pairing role? It’s not like Timmins is going to get any reps on the power play with OEL and Rielly already playing. Timmins is a clear downgrade.

Timmins doesn't need PP minutes to produce as well as Liljegren. He's also playing with Benoit who does his job being the shutdown guy on the pair. This is the 2nd coach now that has not been impressed with Liljegren as much as online fans and 1 coach is a Cup winner and the other was 1 of the best winning percentage during the regular season coaches in Leafs history. Are both these guys idiots? Timmins has also played better with Benoit over Liljegren as well.

 

[Puckstuff]

You don't even think he's going to play 10 games? Because that's when he gets his 1st bonus payment and he's already played 3 games.

I think he screwed him self with that contract, now the leafs have to be more careful using him

 

[darrylsittler27]

Lily is victim to the fact he is an offensive dman and we have Reilly and Oel. He doesn't play the style demanded of Berube from bottom pairing dman. He also makes $3mill. GM's never show any favours to other GMs picks. As long as we get someone who helps us now we move on.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

23 points is good when you’re a defensemen who doesn’t play on the power play and only played 55 games. You said so much here yet proved nothing other than you don’t know what you are talking about. He wasn’t great against the Kings but has played 200 NHL games, most of which where he was statistically a very good player. It’s not really his fault Keefe was idiot enough to play Lyubushkin over him. This organization has proven itself incompetent at developing defensemen.

It’s ridiculous how much rope management and coaching has given to veterans who underperform like Holl, Brodie last year, Lyubushkin vs giving promising young dmen minutes and giving them a chance to grow. It happened to Sandin, it’s happening to Liljegren and it’s going to happen to Niemela.

This team has no future on the blue line because all of our defensemen are either aging or can’t move the puck worth shit. Add in a coach and GM who are size queens that appear to love physicality over actual skill and this team’s window is going to close the second Tanev falls off.

No this teams window closes when Auston Matthews is no longer a Leaf, not when Chris Tanev falls off, and seeing as Matthews just turned 27, the window will be open for awhile yet.

As for the Treliving and Berube being "size queens" we've tried the small fast team and yeah it was fun to watch, 10-7 against Detroit 8-5 against the Rangers, 8-6 against Carolina 5-4 over Tampa in game 4 in 2023.

All fun memories, but you know what? They didn't win.

So yeah now It's time to get some size in here.

Last time I checked they were the heaviest team in the league and that's a good thing.

 

[rumman]

Who cares if he is the same or slightly better than Liljegren offensively if he is inarguably a much worse defensive player, especially when we are talking about who is going to fill a bottom pairing role? It’s not like Timmins is going to get any reps on the power play with OEL and Rielly already playing. Timmins is a clear downgrade.

I’d like to see how a bottom pairing of Benny and Myers would do, both Lilly and Timmins aren’t players we need as the 6/7 guys imo……….

 

[crump]

A lot of people tempering the Leafs start saying it’s only 4 games (legitimate discussion). Same goes for the Rangers. 2 games against the Redwings. Shesterkin got filled in by Utah letting in 6 but scored 5 themselves. Their PP exploded last game. Panarin hattrick. Is the high octane offense the real deal or will Berube's north south, low event game stifle them? Will the new leafs PK shut that shit down?

Do we see Rempe - Reeves part deux?

Stolarz locking it down again?

Expecting the special teams to play a big part in this, but it will be a low scoring 3-2 game win for us.

Rangers are undefeated and +11 in 4 games

I’d say they are the best team in the league - regular season.

They lost to Utah 6-5

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I love being a leafs fan.

We are still debating over who the 6th D-man should be. Lol

 

[DarkKnight]

Looking forward to this one, see how our system holds up against a strong, dynamic team.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Yep the start of the season has been very encouraging but we're now going to face some very real teams in the next two weeks and will need to prove this level against the leagues best.

4 of the next 6 games are tough.

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It's the Leafs. They will win the tough ones then flub the no way we lose one's finishing one pt over .500.