Hlinka Gretzky Cup 2019

[coolwood]

Matthew Savoie?? Can you name one time when Hockey Canada has taken a double underager to the Hlinka tournament? I know they took Veleno as an underager 1 year, but that didn't work out too well. Hockey Canada pretty much exclusively sticks with the birth year for the Hlinka tournament. in this case, it's the 02s kick at the can.

If reports are accurate and he plays as many WHL games as some are predicting, and performs well, then give him a shot with the U18 team in the spring. if available, of course.

I think they're talking about Carter

 

[kyle44]

Matthew Savoie?? Can you name one time when Hockey Canada has taken a double underager to the Hlinka tournament? I know they took Veleno as an underager 1 year, but that didn't work out too well. Hockey Canada pretty much exclusively sticks with the birth year for the Hlinka tournament. in this case, it's the 02s kick at the can.

If reports are accurate and he plays as many WHL games as some are predicting, and performs well, then give him a shot with the U18 team in the spring. if available, of course.

I'm well aware of this. I'm referring to his brother, Carter, who put up 31 goals and 73 points in 58 games as a 16 year old in the AJHL last year.

 

[smalt021]

2019 Boys Select 17 Player Development Camp

 

[William H Bonney]

Team USA announced.

Two huge names didn't make it:

• Antonio Stranges
• Wyatt Schingoethe

It's always possible that maybe they're not that good but this reeks a bit of USAH payback: Stranges for signing with the NTDP and then bailing on his commitment for London and Schingoethe for turning down an NTDP offer.

 

[OldScool]

Team USA announced.

Two huge names didn't make it:

• Antonio Stranges
• Wyatt Schingoethe

It's always possible that maybe they're not that good but this reeks a bit of USAH payback: Stranges for signing with the NTDP and then bailing on his commitment for London and Schingoethe for turning down an NTDP offer.

Schingoethe didn’t register a point in 5 games. NTDP offer was turned down after he didn’t get initial invite so not sure why that would be held against him. Stranges didn’t do much to separate himself either with 5 points. Add in other issues and you can see why USA didn’t pick them. Sometime you gotta give credit to other players who won spots and not blame it on some payback excuse. Bottom line is neither player dominated and played themselves on the team.

 

[Brock]

Schingoethe didn’t register a point in 5 games. NTDP offer was turned down after he didn’t get initial invite so not sure why that would be held against him. Stranges didn’t do much to separate himself either with 5 points. Add in other issues and you can see why USA didn’t pick them. Sometime you gotta give credit to other players who won spots and not blame it on some payback excuse. Bottom line is neither player dominated and played themselves on the team.

Stranges led his team in scoring at the camp. What else was he supposed to do?

 

[AmericanDream]

Stranges led his team in scoring at the camp. What else was he supposed to do?

not shit over USA Hockey, that is for sure....there is no selling this hit job on him..kid showed up and knew the fix was in..regardless if you hated what he did or not, kid deserved to be on this team and represent his country. kids have to make tough decisions at 15/16 years old, USA Hockey should understand and respect them even if we do not agree with what Stranges did..him not being here is just another in a long line of screw jobs these clowns keep doing to kids..wonder why we get dozens of "no thanks" each and every World Championships from our non USNDP pro players.

 

[William H Bonney]

Schingoethe didn’t register a point in 5 games. NTDP offer was turned down after he didn’t get initial invite so not sure why that would be held against him. Stranges didn’t do much to separate himself either with 5 points. Add in other issues and you can see why USA didn’t pick them. Sometime you gotta give credit to other players who won spots and not blame it on some payback excuse. Bottom line is neither player dominated and played themselves on the team.

You're putting way too much value in points at a player development camp that barely resembles real hockey games. Is it possible that it's not payback by USAH? Sure, especially in the Schingoethe case. And with USAH, incompetence is usually a driving factor. But payback is not out of the question and that fact has been admitted by former USAH employees. Chris Peters said "Not ruling it out, but it's been less prevalent in recent years" about the Stranges omission possibly being about payback. A person more well connected than any of us to USAH said that.

But let's go with your points argument. There were 13 forwards that made the Hlinka team and Stranges had more points than 5 of them, and was tied with another 2 of them at 5 points. Since you've only offered points, I'm curious as to how those 7 forwards (54% of the roster) "won spots" and "played themselves on the team" despite not "dominat[ing]?" Or conversely why top camp scorers like Matt MacDonald (2nd), Jonny Meiers (tied for 3rd), Cameron Berg (tied for 4th), Matt DeBoer and Blake Humphrey (tied for 5th) didn't make the cut when they outscored nearly all the players on the Hlinka team? And Meiers, DeBoer, and Humphrey didn't even get into the All-Star game! Or what was Schingoethe doing in the All-Star game and still in the running for the Hlinka team after he didn't register a point in camp? His first 5 pointless games were fine but the 6th was a bridge too far? You ask that I "see why USA didn't pick them" based on points, yet one of them outscored/tied in scoring a majority of the Hlinka forwards and the other made it to the All-Star game despite not registering a point? That petition request in USAH's favor doesn't comport with the actual camp results.

It's good that guys can make the team based on great camp performances. That's the way it should be! But guys should also be evaluated, and possibly make the team, based on the totality of their performances and abilities, even if they have poor statistical camps like Schingoethe. If a guy like MacDonald statistically dominating the camp isn't enough to take him from off-the-radar to on the Hlinka team, why should 6 games of unstructured hockey override what Schingoethe did in 62 games in the USHL last year to take him off the team?

I'm not even a big "USAH holds grudges" guy. I think nearly every time someone claims USAH has an axe to grind against a player - think countless CHL cuts / snubs at the WJC - it's not a grudge but incompetence or player preference. I think that's the far more likely explanation for Schingoethe, even if the cut is still largely indefensible. But USAH has clearly demonstrated an axe to grind against players that sign with the NTDP and then bolt without honoring the contract. It's been well documented and admitted by those-in-the-know. And if USAH would leave off Stranges, a player that independent evaluators say would be the most talented, best NHL prospect, and best player on this team, for any reason other than retribution than they need to rethink their entire approach to the Hlinka, player development, and player selection, because that type of incompetence would be shocking.

 

[William H Bonney]

Stranges led his team in scoring at the camp. What else was he supposed to do?

Finish with 4 points like Ryan Beck from his team and subsequently make the Hlinka squad!

 

[OldScool]

You're putting way too much value in points at a player development camp that barely resembles real hockey games. Is it possible that it's not payback by USAH? Sure, especially in the Schingoethe case. And with USAH, incompetence is usually a driving factor. But payback is not out of the question and that fact has been admitted by former USAH employees. Chris Peters said "Not ruling it out, but it's been less prevalent in recent years" about the Stranges omission possibly being about payback. A person more well connected than any of us to USAH said that.

But let's go with your points argument. There were 13 forwards that made the Hlinka team and Stranges had more points than 5 of them, and was tied with another 2 of them at 5 points. Since you've only offered points, I'm curious as to how those 7 forwards (54% of the roster) "won spots" and "played themselves on the team" despite not "dominat[ing]?" Or conversely why top camp scorers like Matt MacDonald (2nd), Jonny Meiers (tied for 3rd), Cameron Berg (tied for 4th), Matt DeBoer and Blake Humphrey (tied for 5th) didn't make the cut when they outscored nearly all the players on the Hlinka team? And Meiers, DeBoer, and Humphrey didn't even get into the All-Star game! Or what was Schingoethe doing in the All-Star game and still in the running for the Hlinka team after he didn't register a point in camp? His first 5 pointless games were fine but the 6th was a bridge too far? You ask that I "see why USA didn't pick them" based on points, yet one of them outscored/tied in scoring a majority of the Hlinka forwards and the other made it to the All-Star game despite not registering a point? That petition request in USAH's favor doesn't comport with the actual camp results.

It's good that guys can make the team based on great camp performances. That's the way it should be! But guys should also be evaluated, and possibly make the team, based on the totality of their performances and abilities, even if they have poor statistical camps like Schingoethe. If a guy like MacDonald statistically dominating the camp isn't enough to take him from off-the-radar to on the Hlinka team, why should 6 games of unstructured hockey override what Schingoethe did in 62 games in the USHL last year to take him off the team?

I'm not even a big "USAH holds grudges" guy. I think nearly every time someone claims USAH has an axe to grind against a player - think countless CHL cuts / snubs at the WJC - it's not a grudge but incompetence or player preference. I think that's the far more likely explanation for Schingoethe, even if the cut is still largely indefensible. But USAH has clearly demonstrated an axe to grind against players that sign with the NTDP and then bolt without honoring the contract. It's been well documented and admitted by those-in-the-know. And if USAH would leave off Stranges, a player that independent evaluators say would be the most talented, best NHL prospect, and best player on this team, for any reason other than retribution than they need to rethink their entire approach to the Hlinka, player development, and player selection, because that type of incompetence would be shocking.

Some of those players certainly could make valid arguments on why they didn’t make the team. The point is USA hockey is trying to build the best team not necessarily pick the most talented players. Off ice, character, etc play a large role too.

 

[William H Bonney]

Some of those players certainly could make valid arguments on why they didn’t make the team. The point is USA hockey is trying to build the best team not necessarily pick the most talented players. Off ice, character, etc play a large role too.

Perfect, so you agree Stranges could as well considering his point totals against plenty of the players on the team.

"The point is USA hockey is trying to build the best team not necessarily pick the most talented players"

Maybe they should try something different given how they've done at the Hlinka?

 

[AmericanDream]

You're putting way too much value in points at a player development camp that barely resembles real hockey games. Is it possible that it's not payback by USAH? Sure, especially in the Schingoethe case. And with USAH, incompetence is usually a driving factor. But payback is not out of the question and that fact has been admitted by former USAH employees. Chris Peters said "Not ruling it out, but it's been less prevalent in recent years" about the Stranges omission possibly being about payback. A person more well connected than any of us to USAH said that.

But let's go with your points argument. There were 13 forwards that made the Hlinka team and Stranges had more points than 5 of them, and was tied with another 2 of them at 5 points. Since you've only offered points, I'm curious as to how those 7 forwards (54% of the roster) "won spots" and "played themselves on the team" despite not "dominat[ing]?" Or conversely why top camp scorers like Matt MacDonald (2nd), Jonny Meiers (tied for 3rd), Cameron Berg (tied for 4th), Matt DeBoer and Blake Humphrey (tied for 5th) didn't make the cut when they outscored nearly all the players on the Hlinka team? And Meiers, DeBoer, and Humphrey didn't even get into the All-Star game! Or what was Schingoethe doing in the All-Star game and still in the running for the Hlinka team after he didn't register a point in camp? His first 5 pointless games were fine but the 6th was a bridge too far? You ask that I "see why USA didn't pick them" based on points, yet one of them outscored/tied in scoring a majority of the Hlinka forwards and the other made it to the All-Star game despite not registering a point? That petition request in USAH's favor doesn't comport with the actual camp results.

It's good that guys can make the team based on great camp performances. That's the way it should be! But guys should also be evaluated, and possibly make the team, based on the totality of their performances and abilities, even if they have poor statistical camps like Schingoethe. If a guy like MacDonald statistically dominating the camp isn't enough to take him from off-the-radar to on the Hlinka team, why should 6 games of unstructured hockey override what Schingoethe did in 62 games in the USHL last year to take him off the team?

I'm not even a big "USAH holds grudges" guy. I think nearly every time someone claims USAH has an axe to grind against a player - think countless CHL cuts / snubs at the WJC - it's not a grudge but incompetence or player preference. I think that's the far more likely explanation for Schingoethe, even if the cut is still largely indefensible. But USAH has clearly demonstrated an axe to grind against players that sign with the NTDP and then bolt without honoring the contract. It's been well documented and admitted by those-in-the-know. And if USAH would leave off Stranges, a player that independent evaluators say would be the most talented, best NHL prospect, and best player on this team, for any reason other than retribution than they need to rethink their entire approach to the Hlinka, player development, and player selection, because that type of incompetence would be shocking.

For my future responses - I will be referring to Bonney for my replies as he does a far better job of backing up certain points and stances instead of what I typically respond with...though we are trying to convey the same message, Bonney will give you the far more educated and articulate response, whereas my response will be very much "Hulk Smash" type stuff..lol...

Spot on as always, I wish I could respond in kind without letting my emotions get the best of me..my kids ask me why do I still get worked up over this stuff..I typically respond "I got nothing..no freaking clue"...so from now on - @William H Bonney "WHAT HE SAID"...

 

[OldScool]

Perfect, so you agree Stranges could as well considering his point totals against plenty of the players on the team.

"The point is USA hockey is trying to build the best team not necessarily pick the most talented players"

Maybe they should try something different given how they've done at the Hlinka?

USA hockey doesn’t care about the Hlinka - if they did they would send the ntdp team instead of the select team.

Not sure how to make this clearer but there are additional boxes to check other than on ice play and some players don’t check that box.

 

[William H Bonney]

USA hockey doesn’t care about the Hlinka - if they did they would send the ntdp team instead of the select team.

Not sure how to make this clearer but there are additional boxes to check other than on ice play and some players don’t check that box.

You're making little sense, man. From the post I quoted you said:

Some of those players certainly could make valid arguments on why they didn’t make the team. The point is USA hockey is trying to build the best team not necessarily pick the most talented players. Off ice, character, etc play a large role too.

But now they don't care about the Hlinka? They're putting in all this effort and resources to building the best team for a tournament they don't care about?

Also, no one disputes that more goes into choosing a team than just on ice play. But once again, that doesn't comport with the facts. If Stranges / Schingoethe had such off ice concerns, why were they in the All-Star Game? Did they materialize out of thin air during the All-Star game and the short window to the Hlinka team announcement? And if those off ice concerns were already present - which you've suggested in other threads - it's fairly non-sensical to both claim USAH is looking for players to check all the boxes while they're also inviting said players to the final evaluation game when you you claim they know don't check all the boxes. Which is it?

 

[OldScool]

You're making little sense, man. From the post I quoted you said:



But now they don't care about the Hlinka? They're putting in all this effort and resources to building the best team for a tournament they don't care about?

Also, no one disputes that more goes into choosing a team than just on ice play. But once again, that doesn't comport with the facts. If Stranges / Schingoethe had such off ice concerns, why were they in the All-Star Game? Did they materialize out of thin air during the All-Star game and the short window to the Hlinka team announcement? And if those off ice concerns were already present - which you've suggested in other threads - it's fairly non-sensical to both claim USAH is looking for players to check all the boxes while they're also inviting said players to the final evaluation game when you you claim they know don't check all the boxes. Which is it?

Semantics. They care about building the best team based on the talent pool they have invited. If they truly cared they would send the NTDP team.

Stranges you can make a case for making the team. He is talented but by the reports/stats he didnt dominate and was "inconsistent" and therefore was on roster bubble and taking into other considerations it probably put him on the outside looking in.

Schingoethe had zero points in 5 games and still made all star game so it seems that USA Hockey gave him extra rope even to make the team and he didnt play well enough.

Why bother with a horse and pony 5 day camp if you are going to just pick players based on reputation and past performance?

Why is no credit given to other players who made the team? Is it quite possible that other kids performed and deserved spots? You sound like you want spots handed out to players based on past reputation/arbitrary rankings - then you would come on here and complain about entitlement and favoritism. Which is it?

 

[William H Bonney]

Semantics. They care about building the best team based on the talent pool they have invited. If they truly cared they would send the NTDP team.

Ok, so you're back to agreeing that they care about this tournament. Got it.

Stranges you can make a case for making the team. He is talented but by the reports/stats he didnt dominate and was "inconsistent" and therefore was on roster bubble and taking into other considerations it probably put him on the outside looking in.

Most players that make the team don't dominate, are inconsistent, and are on the bubble until the team is named. If it's not an issue for them it shouldn't be an issue for Stranges.

Schingoethe had zero points in 5 games and still made all star game so it seems that USA Hockey gave him extra rope even to make the team and he didnt play well enough.

I find it odd that in your continued argument you claim both that only their on-ice performance in camp was relevant to the Hlinka selection process, think USAH made sound decisions only based on the camp, and yet think USAH was willing to give extra rope to Schingoethe. Did Schingoethe deserve a spot in the All-Star game? According to USAH, yes, so if they don't care about points, why do you keep harping on them? Also, you keep claiming 5 games when the All-Star participants play 6.

Why bother with a horse and pony 5 day camp if you are going to just pick players based on reputation and past performance?

Please point me to where I said the camp shouldn't exist? I'm saying it shouldn't be the only factor. It's pretty cheap of you to keep making up arguments I'm not offering. Why bother with the camp? Hmm, I don't know, let's check the tapes of what I said previously: "It's good that guys can make the team based on great camp performances. That's the way it should be!" Weird stance of me to take if I don't want the camps.

But even better -- why don't you even agree with yourself? Let's see how you responded when someone claimed another version of Team USA was selected less than 3 months ago in the same manner which you're now denigrating...

I have a feeling the team was pretty much picked even before the try-outs took place. As, I've heard some guys that didn't play well, made the team and vice versa - guys who looked good that week, didn't make the cut.

Boy oh boy, I bet @Dux917 had an ally like you on their side. Let's check your response...

As it should for the most part. Team should be selected on a large body of work not a 3 day camp IMO. USA hockey spends a lot of time and effort scouting for this team so I assume a majority of the team is locked in prior to the camp and they fill in the rest of the roster with camp standouts.

...oh, my, what in the world?

Why is no credit given to other players who made the team? Is it quite possible that other kids performed and deserved spots? You sound like you want spots handed out to players based on past reputation/arbitrary rankings - then you would come on here and complain about entitlement and favoritism. Which is it?

No one is denying other players credit. Thinking 1-2 players were snubbed (either due to incompetence or vindictiveness) is not a denial of credit to other players. They're not mutually exclusive concepts. Why do you keep fabricating positions your opponents have not taken to fit your losing argument? I've claimed the camp should not be the only factor in choosing the Hlinka roster. That's a pretty easy argument to understand.

 

[mirec04]

Slovak team for Hlinka Cup will be chosen from the players listed in the below link.
Reprezentácia do 18 rokov začne prípravu na Hlinka Gretzky Cup v polovici júla

 

[OldScool]

A 3 day camp < 6 day camp.

USA hockey does a great job of recognizing who should be at the camps and I am sure has a good idea of who is going to make the team. That being said there are a lot of situations when a player doesnt perform well and loses his spot. Not rocket science.

Every single camp there will be good players that are snubbed - it happens every year. Want to avoid being snubbed? Go out and dominate and make them put you on the team. Playing 6 games and not registering a point as a forward will play yourself off the team and deservingly so. As I mentioned before there is a difference between player hype and player performance.

 

[William H Bonney]

A 3 day camp < 6 day camp.

USA hockey does a great job of recognizing who should be at the camps and I am sure has a good idea of who is going to make the team. That being said there are a lot of situations when a player doesnt perform well and loses his spot. Not rocket science.

Every single camp there will be good players that are snubbed - it happens every year. Want to avoid being snubbed? Go out and dominate and make them put you on the team. Playing 6 games and not registering a point as a forward will play yourself off the team and deservingly so. As I mentioned before there is a difference between player hype and player performance.

I've never encountered anyone whose argument continues to shift and relies so frequently on illogical weaseling, whether it's fabricating positions your opponents have not taken or laughable attempts at historical revisionism of your own clearly stated positions. You're literally caught contradicting yourself and now claim that your camp argument only applies to a camp that's slightly shorter than the other, as if you literally didn't say a "[t]eam should be selected on a large body of work" in the same statement. A 6 day camp is not a large body of work. Nor do you even realize the length of the camps you're babbling about once again, as the NTDP camp is 4 days, not 3. The only positive out of engaging with you has been confirming a source of mindless drivel and thankfully HF has a feature to silence it.

As it should for the most part. Team should be selected on a large body of work not a 3 day camp IMO. USA hockey spends a lot of time and effort scouting for this team so I assume a majority of the team is locked in prior to the camp and they fill in the rest of the roster with camp standouts.

 

[NA Hockey]

From what I have been told by multiple sources that were in attendance at camp, was that Stranges was just ok, and not nearly close to being a top player at camp. "Other than the 10-2 skating all over the place, you wouldn't have noticed him at all" is how one scout described it to me.

I agree with the above "Want to avoid being snubbed? Go out and dominate and make them put you on the team."

With what has transpired in the past with Stranges and USA Hockey, I believe he needed to be so good that he forced his way on the team, and he didn't do that by many accounts. Past reputation only gets you so far, especially if they are looking for a reason to cut you. Being mediocre in the camp and being outplayed by many players including others that were cut, is not a way to demand being on the team.

 

[William H Bonney]

With what has transpired in the past with Stranges and USA Hockey, I believe he needed to be so good that he forced his way on the team, and he didn't do that by many accounts. Past reputation only gets you so far, especially if they are looking for a reason to cut you.

This is what people are arguing against. How is this so hard to follow? No one is claiming Stranges dominated the camp.

 

[NA Hockey]

He was mediocre at best at camp by numerous accounts, which gives the powers that be a reason to cut him. He probably needed to be one of the best at camp to make the team and he was middle of the pack. Not hard to follow at all.

 

[William H Bonney]

He was mediocre at best at camp by numerous accounts, which gives the powers that be a reason to cut him. He probably needed to be one of the best at camp to make the team and he was middle of the pack. Not hard to follow at all.

Apparently it is because you're not following. No one is claiming Stranges was the best at camp. There have been two central arguments: a team shouldn't be selected only on the basis of a short camp and there shouldn't be a different standard applied to Stranges than anyone else trying out for the team. Maybe you disagree with the first one and that's fine, as long as you're not one of those who argues both for and against it. But it's hilarious that the two folks that continue to justify the Stranges omission are using arguments propelled by advocating different standards for him than anyone else, given it aligns perfectly with the central tenant of those complaining about the Stranges omission: he's being unfairly held to a different standard because he bailed on the NTDP.

 

[NA Hockey]

I am not even disagreeing with you. I am stating what I believe to be facts. Stranges history with US Hockey was a factor. He very recently screwed over the program, making USA hockey look bad. I believe that he needed to come to camp and be top 5 player for them to consider taking him. He was not nearly a top player there. In fact my sources say he looked disinterested, wasn't putting out a full effort and looked like he thought he was too cool for school.

Is this fair ? That is a different argument that I am happy to have but I am not surprised after his performance at camp that he didn't make the team.

 

[OldScool]

Bottom line is that stranges didn’t deserve to be on the team because of his play not some USA hockey grudge. Period.

He didn’t make it out of Michigan selection process initially and had to get an at large bid from USA hockey to camp. Didn’t play well at camp and didn’t earn a spot. Period.

Hopefully this is a wake up call for him as he is talented but there are some serious red flags there that need to be addressed IMO.