History of the ATD

[BenchBrawl]

I actually miss @markrander87. We went too far in our fights though, but his competitiveness is sadly missed. If he had stayed, he would have won a draft one year.

 

[tony d]

Yes, we've lost a few good GM's over the years. @DaveG is one. Both him and @MadArcand gave me my start with this.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Guys I have a question for everyone: Which ATD was your first one?

A bit of nostalgia on a cold Friday night:

My first ATD was on another site - I think it was called Metro Boards. It's been offline for at least 15 years. I was able to find an old Word doc with a partial roster. I won't post it now because many of the players haven't yet been drafted, but it was a ridiculously good team (even taking into account the fact that it was a ~12 team draft, from what I recall). I found that draft through Darryl Shilling (fifteen years ago, he had a great website with all kinds of ambitious and interesting articles that married hockey history with stats - it's a shame he never got a wider audience).

My first ATD on HFBoards was #3, which ran in the spring of 2005. I had just joined HFBoards that January. I took over from a GM who dropped out after four (?) picks. He gave me a pretty good start - Howe, Dionne, Coffey and Kharlamov. Back then, it was easy to get pre-expansion stars late into the draft. The challenge was then convincing people that these players were actually great (and everyone else had underrated them). I had a good team, but @BM67 was probably the strongest (he used the same strategy as me), and @Dirt 101 would have been right behind (Clarke, Messier and Yzerman up the middle).

I skipped ATD #4 (fall 2005) - I can't remember why. Then I put together a tough, physical team for ATD #5 (spring 2006). It was quite a bit weaker offensively than most of my other teams, but they would have been a pain to play against. That was the last draft before we had playoffs.

ATD #6 (fall 2006) was the first HFBoards draft to feature playoffs. I won that draft after a close, hard-fought series against BM67. I've had lot of successes and good memories throughout my life - and I'm not saying that this is near the top, but winning ATD #6 is somewhere on that list. It was important for me to do well in this draft because I didn't want to be seen as just a "numbers guy" - I wanted to show everyone that I also understood hockey strategy and roster management, beyond simply reading a spreadsheet. I think I achieved that. Over fourteen years later, I still love how this team was constructed - incredibly well balanced.

Next was ATD #7 (spring 2007). I don't remember too much about this draft. The team was focused too heavily on defense, but still managed to make it to the ATD semi-finals. @pitseleh (one of my all-time favourite HOH posters - who I don't think has been active for many years) beat me in a seven game series - his team had a bit more firepower and was the rightful winner. (Note - ATD #7 features my all-time favourite team. @Nalyd Psycho had the 3rd pick, and selected Howe, then traded up to get the 4th pick as well, to get Lemieux. I can't tell from the draft thread what it cost him - it certainly was a lot - but it was an incredibly ambitious strategy. He was eliminated early in the playoffs, but I have a ton of respect for someone who used such a bold, unconventional approach).

I won ATD #8 (fall 2007), after another seven-game finals series against pitseleh. It was redemption for the previous draft. He made a bold move, trading picks 4 and 165 for 1 and 225 - giving up 60(!) spots to get Orr instead of Lemieux - and it very nearly paid off. My team was pretty similar to the one from the previous year - great goaltending and defense, but not a ton of offensive depth. I really enjoyed building around Potvin. Note that pitseleh's team had Frank Nighbor on the second line. Back then, far less was known about Nighbor's greatness. If the ATD community voted on the matchup today, based on what we've learned over the past 13 years about Nighbor (and everyone else), I think his team would (rightfully) win.

It's still painful for me to think about ATD #9 (winter 2008). I was eager to defend the title, but I had to back out after my father died unexpectedly. It was just a few days after the draft began, and fortunately @The Mighty Duck Man stepped in to take over my team. The next year was very tough for me, but I wanted to return to my routine (in all aspects of life) as soon as possible. pitseleh was very kind in letting me co-GM a team with him. I don't recall exactly when I teamed up with him - maybe it was two-thirds of the way through the draft. Our team was knocked out by @shawnmullin strong, balanced team in the quarter-finals (ie eight teams left). "Only" making it to the quarter-finals was a disappointing result given that pitseleh and I had won the past three ATD's - but, vastly more important than that, it allowed me to get back into my normal routine.

ATD #10 (winter 2009) was also tough. I was trying to balance the draft while working 80+ hour weeks. I wish that were an exaggeration, but it isn't. I remember the frustration I felt in trying to squeeze in a bit of research at 1AM each night before heading back for another grueling 15 hour day. I was so tired and unfocused that some of my posts didn't make any sense (I remember stating, in one of the playoff matchups, that I'd play my 4th line ~20 minutes a game because they're good defensively - not exactly a winning strategy). For some time I wondered if my team advanced to the finals (for the fourth time in five drafts) simply due to my reputation. Looking back on the roster 11 years later, it's stronger than I remembered, but @Sturminator rightfully beat me in the final as I just didn't have enough offensive depth.

I also participated in a few MLD's - I teamed up with @Dirt 101 for at least one of them. I enjoyed those as well (even if they're not quite as memorable as the main ATD's).

I haven't participated in an ATD since 2009. I'm not quite working 80 hours a week anymore, but I'm usually working ~60 hours a week January through April, and I keep remembering how frustrating ATD #10 was for me (despite my team finishing second - which tells me that the process is more important than the result). I'm fairly sure I could put together an above-average team without a huge time commitment, but that's not how I do things. If I'm going to play, I want to win, and probably one of the reasons I was successful in the past was I had much more free time than I do now. I haven't ruled out the possibility of returning one day - though I might feel like a 52 year old Gordie Howe in 1980, returning to the NHL after nearly a decade.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A bit of nostalgia on a cold Friday night:

My first ATD was on another site - I think it was called Metro Boards. It's been offline for at least 15 years. I was able to find an old Word doc with a partial roster. I won't post it now because many of the players haven't yet been drafted, but it was a ridiculously good team (even taking into account the fact that it was a ~12 team draft, from what I recall). I found that draft through Darryl Shilling (fifteen years ago, he had a great website with all kinds of ambitious and interesting articles that married hockey history with stats - it's a shame he never got a wider audience).

My first ATD on HFBoards was #3, which ran in the spring of 2005. I had just joined HFBoards that January. I took over from a GM who dropped out after four (?) picks. He gave me a pretty good start - Howe, Dionne, Coffey and Kharlamov. Back then, it was easy to get pre-expansion stars late into the draft. The challenge was then convincing people that these players were actually great (and everyone else had underrated them). I had a good team, but @BM67 was probably the strongest (he used the same strategy as me), and @Dirt 101 would have been right behind (Clarke, Messier and Yzerman up the middle).

I skipped ATD #4 (fall 2005) - I can't remember why. Then I put together a tough, physical team for ATD #5 (spring 2006). It was quite a bit weaker offensively than most of my other teams, but they would have been a pain to play against. That was the last draft before we had playoffs.

ATD #6 (fall 2006) was the first HFBoards draft to feature playoffs. I won that draft after a close, hard-fought series against BM67. I've had lot of successes and good memories throughout my life - and I'm not saying that this is near the top, but winning ATD #6 is somewhere on that list. It was important for me to do well in this draft because I didn't want to be seen as just a "numbers guy" - I wanted to show everyone that I also understood hockey strategy and roster management, beyond simply reading a spreadsheet. I think I achieved that. Over fourteen years later, I still love how this team was constructed - incredibly well balanced.

Next was ATD #7 (spring 2007). I don't remember too much about this draft. The team was focused too heavily on defense, but still managed to make it to the ATD semi-finals. @pitseleh (one of my all-time favourite HOH posters - who I don't think has been active for many years) beat me in a seven game series - his team had a bit more firepower and was the rightful winner.

I won ATD #8 (fall 2007), after another seven-game finals series against pitseleh. It was redemption for the previous draft. He made a bold move, trading picks 4 and 165 for 1 and 225 - giving up 60(!) spots to get Orr instead of Lemieux - and it very nearly paid off. My team was pretty similar to the one from the previous year - great goaltending and defense, but not a ton of offensive depth. I really enjoyed building around Potvin. Note that pitseleh's team had Frank Nighbor on the second line. Back then, far less was known about Nighbor's greatness. If the ATD community voted on the matchup today, based on what we've learned over the past 13 years about Nighbor (and everyone else), I think his team would (rightfully) win.

It's still painful for me to think about ATD #9 (winter 2008). I was eager to defend the title, but I had to back out after my father died unexpectedly. It was just a few days after the draft began, and fortunately somebody stepped in to take over my team. The next year was very tough for me, but I wanted to return to my routine (in all aspects of life) as soon as possible. pitseleh was very kind in letting me co-GM a team with him. I don't recall exactly when I teamed up with him - maybe it was two-thirds of the way through the draft. Our team was knocked out by @shawnmullin strong, balanced team in the quarter-finals (ie eight teams left). "Only" making it to the quarter-finals was a disappointing result given that pitseleh and I had won the past three ATD's - but, vastly more important than that, it allowed me to get back into my normal routine.

ATD #10 (winter 2009) was also tough. I was trying to balance the draft while working 80+ hour weeks. I wish that were an exaggeration, but it isn't. I remember the frustration I felt in trying to squeeze in a bit of research at 1AM each night before heading back for another grueling 15 hour day. I was so tired and unfocused that some of my posts didn't make any sense (I remember stating, in one of the playoff matchups, that I'd play my 4th line ~20 minutes a game because they're good defensively - not exactly a winning strategy). For some time I wondered if my team advanced to the finals (for the fourth time in five drafts) simply due to my reputation. Looking back on the roster 11 years later, it's stronger than I remembered, but @Sturminator rightfully beat me in the final as I just didn't have enough offensive depth.

I also participated in a few MLD's - I teamed up with @Dirt 101 for at least one of them. I enjoyed those as well (even if they're not quite as memorable as the main ATD's).

I haven't participated in an ATD since 2009. I'm not quite working 8o hours a week anymore, but I'm usually working ~60 hours a week January through April, and I keep remembering how frustrating ATD #10 was for me (despite the team going to the finals). I'm fairly sure I could put together an above-average team without a huge time commitment, but that's not how I do things. If I'm going to play, I want to win, and probably one of the reasons I was successful in the past was I had much more free time to put in than I do now. I haven't ruled out the possibility of returning one day - though I might feel like a 52 year old Gordie Howe in 1980, returning to the NHL after nearly a decade.

Amazing post. I've read every word. A great piece of ATD history. It's too bad that the ATD is played at the worst time of the year for you, when you're in a rush at work. I'd be thrilled to see you join with a strong will to win. Your knowledge and competitive spirit would be a big addition to our group. I don't buy that "Gordie Howe in 1980" comparison, I'm sure you'd be competitive straight up coming in. It's not like you haven't been around HoH for a decade; you've seen the debates and the evolution of legacies.

BM67 is probably the most forgotten GM among the greats, since he doesn't have the double title like you do (ATD championship retrospective), which puts on record that you're one of the greatest GMs in ATD history, and the first winner ever. Seems like BM67 dominated the pre-playoff era, at least in terms of influence?

I really wish I was around back in those days, but I didn't even speak english. I missed the golden era where the ATD was taking shape and running twice a year.

Thank you for this historical testimony.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Updated

Question for everyone: Which ATD was your first one?

So as of now (will update as more people answer):

ATD#1: Leaf Lander
ATD#2:
ATD#3: VanIslander, Hockey Outsider
ATD#4:
ATD#5:
ATD#6:
ATD#7:
ATD#8: seventieslord, Sturminator
ATD#9:
ATD#10:
ATD#11:
ATD#12: Johnny Engine, TheDevilMadeMe, Dreakmur, overpass, MadArcand
ATD2010:
ATD2011: tony d, Hawkey Town 18, BenchBrawl, Selfish Man(MLD2011), BraveCanadian
ATD2012:
ATD2013:
ATD2014: ResilientBeast, ImporterExporter
ATD2015: rmartin65
ATD2016:
ATD2017: tinyzombies
ATD2018: habsfan18, Claude the fraud
ATD2019:
ATD2020:
ATD2021: Professor What

 

[MadArcand]

My first ATD was apparently ATD12. Missed my clock in 1st round because it was in middle of the night and ended up being skipped!

 

[BenchBrawl]

My first ATD was apparently ATD12. Missed my clock in 1st round because it was in middle of the night and ended up being skipped!

Seems like ATD#12 was the start for a lot of long-time GMs.

 

[Theokritos]

This can live here for now, but this and my weird meta stuff will go to the chat thread and evolution of our teams respectively when I do cleanup

You should leave it here, it makes for a good discussion to read when we go back in the threads. This isn't wasted.

It is ATD history.

It would get lost in this thread. IMO a thread of its own is the way to go.

Back then we were still stuck with the incomplete Google archives and books for research, which is inconvenient.

But at least the search function for the Google archives was fully intact until mid-2011. Then they downgraded it and it's been subpar ever since.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

BM67 is probably the most forgotten GM among the greats, since he doesn't have the double title like you do (ATD championship retrospective), which puts on record that you're one of the greatest GMs in ATD history, and the first winner ever. Seems like BM67 dominated the pre-playoff era, at least in terms of influence?

Agreed. @BM67 was a great poster and an excellent GM. He was competitive, and always put together strong (but honest) arguments for his team. He was consistent, fielding a competitive team in each draft. (He probably had the best team in ATD #3, was runner-up in ATD #6, and would be on a short list of favourites in ATD #4 and #5 as well).

One thing that I really respected about him is his teams were unpredictable - much more varied than mine which, although successful, have been pretty formulaic.

He did a great job of drafting pre-expansion greats (and Europeans, but to a lesser extent). It's easy to look back at, say, ATD #3 and point out that he got a bunch of bargains (Bill Cook at 102, Marcel Pronovost at 216, Frank Nighbor at 289!) that simply wouldn't happen today. That's true - but if he simply assembled a roster of great pre-expansion players (that everybody else in the draft had ignored or underrated), his teams wouldn't have done well. He first had to find the bargains, then convince everyone that they were actually great players - not always an easy task.

The other thing that many people might not realize is BM67 was the creator of what eventually became the VsX system. (Some people have mistakenly said that I was the creator - and although I run the numbers, I take no credit for the underlying concepts). People didn't take that system ("Vs2") too seriously because there were some obvious flaws in strictly comparing players to the runner-up (was it Bronco Horvath or peak Lemieux?). @Sturminator gets a lot of credit for refining that system into what it is today - but it originated with BM67.

The other poster I'll call out is @God Bless Canada - who hasn't been online in many years but was one of my favourites. Another very good GM who emphasized the importance of team & line chemistry and helped crystallize the concept that we were trying to build functional teams, not simply compile the best player available and throw them somewhere in the lineup.

Probably the biggest conceptual change over the past decade (aside from players being re-evaluated, due to new research, or their careers having unfolded) is the concept of handedness for defensemen. It was occasionally brought up in the pre-2010 ATD's, but it was a very minor consideration. There's a lot more emphasis on that now. I can't remember who led that charge. But if that's the biggest change over 15 years, that speaks to there being far more similarities than differences.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think 2011 was the first one I was in and I skipped the last few before this one.

 

[BenchBrawl]

He did a great job of drafting pre-expansion greats (and Europeans, but to a lesser extent). It's easy to look back at, say, ATD #3 and point out that he got a bunch of bargains (Bill Cook at 102, Marcel Pronovost at 216, Frank Nighbor at 289!) that simply wouldn't happen today. That's true - but if he simply assembled a roster of great pre-expansion players (that everybody else in the draft had ignored or underrated), his teams wouldn't have done well. He first had to find the bargains, then convince everyone that they were actually great players - not always an easy task.

I see exactly what you mean. There's a phenomenon in the ATD where a GM will "go to war" for a player to rise up the ranks, but it's the GM who takes him the next year who reaps the rewards. Probably has a psychological component to it; whether just not wanting to "be wrong" or "lose the debate", or simply resistance to change.

The other thing that many people might not realize is BM67 was the creator of what eventually became the VsX system. (Some people have mistakenly said that I was the creator - and although I run the numbers, I take no credit for the underlying concepts). People didn't take that system ("Vs2") too seriously because there were some obvious flaws in strictly comparing players to the runner-up (was it Bronco Horvath or peak Lemieux?). @Sturminator gets a lot of credit for refining that system into what it is today - but it originated with BM67.

I was aware of that for some reason, and you're right that he should get credit as the pioneer of the method. Sturminator did an excellent job of solving the remaining issues and creating the final version of the system.

Probably the biggest conceptual change over the past decade (aside from players being re-evaluated, due to new research, or their careers having unfolded) is the concept of handedness for defensemen. It was occasionally brought up in the pre-2010 ATD's, but it was a very minor consideration. There's a lot more emphasis on that now. I can't remember who led that charge. But if that's the biggest change over 15 years, that speaks to there being far more similarities than differences.

Are you talking about handedness as in right-handed vs. left-handed, or the side on which they played (RD vs. LD)? I ask, because the latter (RD vs. LD) is increasingly important to many GMs, and thus the penalty harsher if you contravene this unwritten rule. But this is quite new; I'd say the last three years is where this became an issue, and even this year you can sense it's more important than last year, and still rising in importance.

If you meant the former (right-handed vs. left-handed), I'm not sure I'd qualify it as super important, in the sense of being judged for it by most GMs. Only a few might notice if you had six left-handed defensemen, but of course it could hurt you in a playoff series against this GM. It was probably always a thing in my era (from 2011 onward), but never a major thing AFAIK. The situation where you're most likely to get caught on this are probably your PP point triggermen.

A new thing that is popping recently, and I'm playing a part in it, is the importance of handedness for centers (to have at least one right-handed center for faceoffs). Not yet a super important thing, but it will become if a few teams are attacked on that in the playoffs (which I guess is how trends start).

I agree with you that there's probably a lot more similarities than differences. The essence of the game stays the same regardless.

 

[Leaf Lander]

We were doing the draft before the leafs board.

I never copied this idea from anyone.

However; I got inspiration from the 97 hockey news top 100 and came up with the all tiem draft which started on the history of hockey board

 

[BenchBrawl]

We were doing the draft before the leafs board.

I never copied this idea from anyone.

However; I got inspiration from the 97 hockey news top 100 and came up with the all tiem draft which started on the history of hockey board

So how did it all start? Which was the first thread, the first move to get this thing going?

 

[BenchBrawl]

We were doing the draft before the leafs board.

I never copied this idea from anyone.

However; I got inspiration from the 97 hockey news top 100 and came up with the all tiem draft which started on the history of hockey board

This thread: All-time draft

...is the oldest of the ATD section. The OP makes it clear the ATD was already being discussed elsewhere, but I can't find where.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Are you talking about handedness as in right-handed vs. left-handed, or the side on which they played (RD vs. LD)? I ask, because the latter (RD vs. LD) is increasingly important to many GMs, and thus the penalty harsher if you contravene this unwritten rule. But this is quite new; I'd say the last three years is where this became an issue, and even this year you can sense it's more important than last year, and still rising in importance.

If you meant the former (right-handed vs. left-handed), I'm not sure I'd qualify it as super important, in the sense of being judged for it by most GMs. Only a few might notice if you had six left-handed defensemen, but of course it could hurt you in a playoff series against this GM. It was probably always a thing in my era (from 2011 onward), but never a major thing AFAIK. The situation where you're most likely to get caught on this are probably your PP point triggermen.

A new thing that is popping recently, and I'm playing a part in it, is the importance of handedness for centers (to have at least one right-handed center for faceoffs). Not yet a super important thing, but it will become if a few teams are attacked on that in the playoffs (which I guess is how trends start).

I agree with you that there's probably a lot more similarities than differences. The essence of the game stays the same regardless.

That was poorly-worded. I meant which side the defenseman played on (not necessarily whether they're left- or right-handed). Definitely a valid consideration, which got very little attention 10-15 years ago.

I don't read every ATD post (I wish I could - not enough time at this time of year) but I recall seeing a few references to handedness for centres over the past couple of drafts. Will be interesting to see if/how that evolves.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That was poorly-worded. I meant which side the defenseman played on (not necessarily whether they're left- or right-handed). Definitely a valid consideration, which got very little attention 10-15 years ago.

I don't read every ATD post (I wish I could - not enough time at this time of year) but I recall seeing a few references to handedness for centres over the past couple of drafts. Will be interesting to see if/how that evolves.

My own championship team in 2017 had issues with defensemen sidedness. I had a pairing of Derian Hatcher - Georges Boucher—written in that order—when they should have been flipped. In that case it wouldn't have made any difference, because both were on their wrong side AFAIK, but it shows how much people didn't care as recently as 2017.

Now it's definitely something I would have checked.

 

[Leaf Lander]

This thread: All-time draft

...is the oldest of the ATD section. The OP makes it clear the ATD was already being discussed elsewhere, but I can't find where.

But hfboards existed in another format where content wasn't transferable to this format.

We discussed it for a year before we did it.

How exactly it occurred I honestly forget.

It was 20 years ago lol does everyone recall all that we posted on a message board from 20 yrs ago.

I certainly can tell you that we did it before the leafs board that had existed since 95/96. I noticed in 2005 that they had one.

Hfboards use to be called hockey2000.com
In the 1990s everyone was fixated on the year 2000 and y2k


Years later we learned of a group of old guys doing a yearly draft of the all time greats. Thats the only precursor to us that I am aware off.

I believe we are the first to include the euro and Russian players

 

[BenchBrawl]

But hfboards existed in another format where content wasn't transferable to this format.

We discussed it for a year before we did it.

How exactly it occurred I honestly forget.

It was 20 years ago lol does everyone recall all that we posted on a message board from 20 yrs ago.

I certainly can tell you that we did it before the leafs board that had existed since 95/96. I noticed in 2005 that they had one.

Hfboards use to be called hockey2000.com
In the 1990s everyone was fixated on the year 2000 and y2k


Years later we learned of a group of old guys doing a yearly draft of the all time greats. Thats the only precursor to us that I am aware off.

I believe we are the first to include the euro and Russian players

didn't know hfb used to be called hockey2000.com lol

Where were these older guys doing their all time draft?

So the first official hfboards ATD draft occurred in 2003?

Insane. I was young back then, though not that young. I remember the 1990s internet, but I was only speaking French back in the days.

Thanks for the story. And for pioneering the draft.

 

[RustyRazor]

I'd been a reader of the ATD for years before doing my first MLD. Ive been much more of a football historian throughout my life and liberally borrowed most of the formats of the ATD to run a football ATD on football's future forums back around 2007 or 2008. It lasted about three years before interest petered out.

 

[Theokritos]

2012 Thread with a similar topic: How did you discover the All-Time Drafts?

 

[ted2019]

My 1st and only until now was the 2015 ATD. I had a bad experience and didn't enjoy myself at all and didn't come back until now. My 1st 5 picks were.
Larry Robinson
Frank Boucher
Ken Dryden
Norm Ullman
Woody Dumart

 

[Theokritos]

My 1st and only until now was the 2015 ATD. I had a bad experience and didn't enjoy myself at all and didn't come back until now. My 1st 5 picks were.

You were also in ATD 2014 and a few minor drafts around 2013/2014, right?

 

[ted2019]

You were also in ATD 2014 and a few minor drafts around 2013/2014, right?

Didn't realize I did the 2014 draft. First 5 picks were.
Rocket Richard
Alex Oveckhin
Dit Clapper
Bert Olmstead
Joe Primeau

 

[BM67]

We were doing the draft before the leafs board.

I never copied this idea from anyone.

However; I got inspiration from the 97 hockey news top 100 and came up with the all tiem draft which started on the history of hockey board

Please stop claiming you started this. You weren't even in the first few draft attempts made before the first ATD. The ATD was in the mock draft board at the beginning.

This thread: All-time draft

...is the oldest of the ATD section. The OP makes it clear the ATD was already being discussed elsewhere, but I can't find where.

The 2003 draft wasn't the first attempt, but it was the first to last through to the last pick. That thread was the continuation after the great restart (a mod moved all posts site wide to a single thread accidentally, so everything was lost). Luckily, we had just started the draft, so we didn't have to recreate more than a round or two of picks.

 

[Theokritos]

a mod moved all posts site wide to a single thread accidentally

Archive photo of the mod in question reporting it to the admins: