HFNYR Top 10 Wingers in Rangers History Preliminary Discussion Thread

[NickyFotiu]

Gave him the edge into group 2 because, off top of my head, he was our greatest shutdown defensive F of all time!!! Like EVER.

But then, not only minimized the like of Lemieux and co, but also, by end of career, was solid like 20ish goals, and not on first line, either.

But it is a personal preference as to my group 2 or 3.
We seem to agree he is top 20.

I watched Jan from the beginning of his career to the end of his career. You are entitled to your opinion but I respectfully disagree. He is not the kind of player that the other guys named were as Rangers. I'm not sure why you think he was around a 20 goal scorer by the end of his career. I think he scored around 50 goals for his whole career put together.

 

[Cake or Death]

Here is a look at how guys increased/decreased their scoring output from regular season to playoffs. Career NYR regular season PPG vs career playoff PPG, minimum of three playoff appearances to avoid skewed numbers. PO = amount of times player appeared in playoffs in NY.

NYR Career Regular Season vs Career Playoff Scoring – All Time Top 20

Player | PO | RS PPG | PO PPG | +/-
Alexei Kovalev|3|0.67|0.88|+0.21
Butch Keeling|9|0.42|0.47|+0.05
Jaromir Jagr|3|1.15|1.17|+0.02
Mike Gartner|3|0.89|0.90|+0.01
Ron Duguay|7|0.68|0.68|0.00
Alex Shibicky|6|0.62|0.62|0.00
Ted Irvine|6|0.47|0.47|0.00
Vic Hadfield|8|0.68|0.67|-0.01
Adam Graves|5|0.66|0.65|-0.01
Mac Colville|6|0.50|0.48|-0.02
Bill Fairbairn|6|0.68|0.65|-0.03
Anders Hedberg|6|0.85|0.79|-0.06
Don Maloney|9|0.77|0.67|-0.10
Rod Gilbert|10|0.96|0.85|-0.11
Cecil Dillon|8|0.69|0.58|-0.11
Steve Vickers|7|0.84|0.72|-0.12
Bob Nevin|5|0.68|0.55|-0.13
Dave Balon|4|0.59|0.45|-0.14
Ryan Callahan|5|0.56|0.41|-0.15
Andy Hebenton|4|0.66|0.50|-0.16

 

[Cake or Death]

For a semi-somewhat apples to apples look at different eras, here are era adjusted career point totals for wingers during their time with the NYR. SP = seasons played in NY (half seasons would indicate a mid-season trade or a short rookie season).

Career Adjusted NYR Scoring Totals – All Time Top 20

Player | SP | Gls | Asst | Pts
Rod Gilbert|15.5|369|609|1005
Bill Cook|11|422|450|872
Andy Bathgate|11|314|540|854
Bun Cook|10|282|490|772
Cecil Dillon|8.5|288|295|583
Vic Hadfield|12.5|261|317|578
Camille Henry|12|291|256|547
Lynn Patrick|10|210|324|534
Adam Graves|10|289|229|518
Steve Vickers|10|212|295|507
Bryan Hextall|9|252|250|502
Dean Prentice|11|216|276|492
Andy Hebenton|8|218|231|449
Don Maloney|10|155|246|401
Butch Keeling|10|237|156|393
Bob Nevin|7.5|172|183|355
Alexei Kovalev|7.5|150|204|351
Bill Fairbairn|7|127|212|339
Alex Shibicky|7.5|170|160|330
Jaromir Jagr|3.5|131|197|328

 

[Cake or Death]

This is era adjusted peak. I took a players best 3-4 season span, just to get a somewhat decent look at how these guys compared during their very best peak seasons in NY. For me, some guys had short, but excellent tenures, and I wanted to see how their short tenures compared to the peak periods for guys that had longer careers.

Career Adjusted NYR Peak Scoring – All Time Top 20

Player | Seasons | Tot Gls | Tot Asst | Tot Pts | Avg Gls | Avg Asst | Avg Pts
Bill Cook|4|217|234|451|54|59|113
Jaromir Jagr|3|113|181|294|38|60|98
Andy Bathgate|3|114|177|291|38|59|97
Bun Cook|4|137|250|387|34|63|97
Rod Gilbert|4|130|202|332|33|50|83
Cecil Dillon|3|100|131|231|33|44|77
Marian Gaborik|3|117|112|229|39|37|76
Theo Fleury|3|77|144|221|26|48|74
Vic Hadfield|3|100|116|216|33|39|72
Bryan Hextall|3|110|103|213|37|34|71
Lynn Patrick|3|96|117|213|32|39|71
Steve Vickers|3|93|111|204|31|37|68
Tomas Sandstrom|3|83|108|191|28|36|64
Mike Gartner|3|117|72|189|39|24|63
Dean Prentice|3|80|105|185|27|35|62
Wally Hergesheimer|3|105|79|184|35|26|61
Andy Hebenton|3|87|93|180|29|31|60
Anders Hedberg|3|78|102|180|26|34|60
Adam Graves|3|97|82|179|32|28|60
Danny Lewicki|3|83|95|178|28|31|59

 

[Cake or Death]

Just for the heck of it, here's a look at era adjusted top single seasons. Impressive to see it so filled with Bill Cook as he didn't hit the NHL till age 30, and played his NYR career from age 30-40. Would've loved to have seen what he would have done if he hit the league in his early 20s. This is also littered by Bathgate appearing 6 times, Bun Cook 3 times, and multiple appearances from Jagr and Gaborik.

Top Era Adjusted Single Seasons

Player | Season | Gls | Asst | Pts
Bill Cook|1929-30|47|98|145
Bun Cook|1927-28|28|95|123
Jaromir Jagr|2005-06|54|66|120
Vic Hadfield|1971-72|46|57|106
Bill Cook|1932-33|50|54|104
Bill Cook|1930-31|60|43|103
Andy Bathgate|1958-59|46|56|102
Bill Cook|1931-32|60|39|99
Rod Gilbert|1971-72|42|55|97
Bill Cook|1928-29|39|58|97
Bun Cook|1929-30|39|58|97
Bun Cook|1930-31|36|61|97
Andy Bathgate|1956-57|33|64|97
Jaromir Jagr|2006-07|31|66|97
Marian Gaborik|2009-10|46|46|92
Andy Bathgate|1957-58|35|57|92
Andy Bathgate|1961-62|30|60|90
Andy Bathgate|1962-63|38|51|89
Andy Bathgate|1955-56|25|64|89
Cecil Dillon|1933-34|22|65|87
Marian Gaborik|2011-12|47|38|85

 

[BBKers]

To think we could have signed Jagr for a mere $2M caphit this year boggles the mind in a sense. Only $$. Instead we signed Pouliot & Moore and kept dead weight like Boyle, Pyatt, Asham & Powe around (last two in the AHL though)
If all were lost we could have picked up an asset or two at the deadline for nothing by trading JJ
GM Senile doing wonders as usual...

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

Consider Bob Nevin. He scored 168 goals and 322 points as a Ranger. Was our third longest serving captain behind Bill Cook and Mess. Often overlooked but solid player.

 

[Chief]

Fine, I'll look at it your way, in which case you'll see almost identical diversity of scoring. Your bolded example doesn't prove much difference between now and then, as the statistical numbers are almost identical when Hextal played. The two years Hextal led in goals, and the season after where he was second in goals, there were only 3 guys who were top 10 in goals all three years (Bryan Hextall, Gordie Drillon, Roy Conacher), only 4 players who were top 10 in two of the three years (Bobby Bauer, Sweeney Schriner, Lynn Patrick, Woody Dumart), and 16 other players made the top 10 only one time in those 3 years. There is essentially the identical level of diversity in scoring, except Bryan Hextall is 1, 1, 2 in goals those three seasons, led the league in assists one season, and was 6th, 2nd and 1st in pts. That's pretty friggin dominant, in a nearly identical diverse pool of goal scorers as the example you just cited. Not to mention Hextall won a Cup in that stretch and led the Rangers in playoff goals that season.

I'm not really surprised with the similarity in the comparison regarding Top 10 goal scorers. My whole point is that I think you will find similar percentages of elite, mediocre and less than average players in any era. The difference is that when you have a larger sample size, like in today's NHL, then your top level of players will be larger. It's like anything else, if everyone was great, then they wouldn't be great, they'd all be average.

As for Gordie Howe, that's a great story!

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

Would like to put in a word for Billy Fairbairn as well. His three year bests averaged at 24 goals...38 assists ... 62 points from 1972-1975. He was a tough second line checker who played with Walt Tkaczuk and Balon then Vickers on the Bulldog line. He's another underrated all round contributor.

 

[Chief]

Barring change, my list will closely resemble:


Creme de la creme 1st group: uber/elite
Bill Cook
Andy Bathgate
Rod Gilbert
Bryan Hextall
Bun Cook
Cecil Dillon
Lynn Patrick

la creme 2nd group: superstar or star + class
Mike Gartner
Adam Graves
Jan Erixon
Tony Amonte
Jaromir Jagr
Camille Henry
Vic Hadfield
Steve Vickers

so not chopped liver 3rd group: great to star class
Alex Kovalev
Tomas Sandstrom
Ron Duguay
Ryan Callahan
Dean Prentice

honorable mention: Don Maloney, Jack Egers, Andy Hebenton, Marian Gaborik

further info requested, please, anybody, not just Crease:
Alf Pike Eddie Shack Butch Keeling Alex Shibicky Danny Lewicki Wally Hergesheimer
in the interests of thoroughness and fairness.


My list considers skills, results, tenure, etc.
Some can be moved.

I wasn't expecting to have Amonte or Gaborik in my Top 20 but I think you should revisit Gaborik and Amonte. I don't understand how you can have Amonte in your Top 20 (and your second grouping) and then leave Gaborik out of the Top 20 altogether.

Amonte's NYR Career:
91-92...79 Gms - 35 G, 34 A, 69 Pts
92-93...83 Gms - 33 G, 43 A, 76 Pts.
93-94...72 Gms - 16 G, 22 A, 38 Pts.

Gaborik's NYR Career:
09-10...76 Gms - 42 G, 44 A, 86 Pts.
10-11...62 Gms - 22 G, 26 A, 48 Pts.
11-12...82 Gms - 41 G, 35 A, 76 Pts.
12-13...35 Gms - 9 G, 10 A, 19 Pts.

Gaborik was a much greater part of the Rangers' offense than Amonte. In Gaborik's 42 goal season, there wasn't even another Ranger who scored over 20 goals! In his 41 goal season, the next highest scoring Rangers had 25 and 29 goals. Even in his 22 goal season, he was 2 goals shy of the team lead and played 17 less games that the Rangers top goal scorer.

Amonte, on the other hand, was never the focus of the Rangers offense. The season he scored 35, Gartner scored 40, Messier also scored 35, two other wingers scored 30, and Graves scored 26. In Amonte's 33 goal season, he was behind two other wingers in goal scoring - Gartner with 45 and Graves with 36.

Amonte led Ranger wingers in assists 1 season. Gaborik did it twice.

On top of that, Gaborik was among the league leaders in goals scored in his two most productive seasons (5th and 3rd overall). Amonte was never that high among the leagues goal scorers.

And now that I've done this exercise, I think Gaborik has to go into my Top 20 and someone else has to be moved out.

 

[Cake or Death]

As for Gordie Howe, that's a great story!

Was pretty cool. I have some nice original signed art work hanging, courtesy of the players being so cool about it. Gretzky, Dionne, Howe, Trottier, Bossy. Haha... even Sam and JD

 

[Chief]

About a month or two ago, I was recently at a local trophy store getting a name plate added to a trophy and the owner asked if I wanted to see something cool. He then hands me a Frank Boucher Trophy that was awarded to Jean Ratelle. There wasn't a lot to it - small marble base with 4 rods going up about 16" to a second level with a small hockey player over a gold oval. They were going to refurbish it and then auction it off.

 

[Jabroni]

I wasn't expecting to have Amonte or Gaborik in my Top 20 but I think you should revisit Gaborik and Amonte. I don't understand how you can have Amonte in your Top 20 (and your second grouping) and then leave Gaborik out of the Top 20 altogether.

Amonte's NYR Career:
91-92...79 Gms - 35 G, 34 A, 69 Pts
92-93...83 Gms - 33 G, 43 A, 76 Pts.
93-94...72 Gms - 16 G, 22 A, 38 Pts.

Gaborik's NYR Career:
09-10...76 Gms - 42 G, 44 A, 86 Pts.
10-11...62 Gms - 22 G, 26 A, 48 Pts.
11-12...82 Gms - 41 G, 35 A, 76 Pts.
12-13...35 Gms - 9 G, 10 A, 19 Pts.

Gaborik was a much greater part of the Rangers' offense than Amonte. In Gaborik's 42 goal season, there wasn't even another Ranger who scored over 20 goals! In his 41 goal season, the next highest scoring Rangers had 25 and 29 goals. Even in his 22 goal season, he was 2 goals shy of the team lead and played 17 less games that the Rangers top goal scorer.

Amonte, on the other hand, was never the focus of the Rangers offense. The season he scored 35, Gartner scored 40, Messier also scored 35, two other wingers scored 30, and Graves scored 26. In Amonte's 33 goal season, he was behind two other wingers in goal scoring - Gartner with 45 and Graves with 36.

Amonte led Ranger wingers in assists 1 season. Gaborik did it twice.

On top of that, Gaborik was among the league leaders in goals scored in his two most productive seasons (5th and 7th overall). Amonte was never that high among the leagues goal scorers.

And now that I've done this exercise, I think Gaborik has to go into my Top 20 and someone else has to be moved out.

Nice breakdown. One correction: I believe Gaborik was 3rd in the league in goals scored in 2011-12.

Just checked: Stamkos had 60, Malkin had 50 and Gaborik had 41. Those were the top 3 for that season.

 

[Cake or Death]

About a month or two ago, I was recently at a local trophy store getting a name plate added to a trophy and the owner asked if I wanted to see something cool. He then hands me a Frank Boucher Trophy that was awarded to Jean Ratelle. There wasn't a lot to it - small marble base with 4 rods going up about 16" to a second level with a small hockey player over a gold oval. They were going to refurbish it and then auction it off.

Wow, that's pretty sweet

 

[bernmeister]

I wasn't expecting to have Amonte or Gaborik in my Top 20 but I think you should revisit Gaborik and Amonte. I don't understand how you can have Amonte in your Top 20 (and your second grouping) and then leave Gaborik out of the Top 20 altogether.

Amonte's NYR Career:
91-92...79 Gms - 35 G, 34 A, 69 Pts
92-93...83 Gms - 33 G, 43 A, 76 Pts.
93-94...72 Gms - 16 G, 22 A, 38 Pts.

Gaborik's NYR Career:
09-10...76 Gms - 42 G, 44 A, 86 Pts.
10-11...62 Gms - 22 G, 26 A, 48 Pts.
11-12...82 Gms - 41 G, 35 A, 76 Pts.
12-13...35 Gms - 9 G, 10 A, 19 Pts.

Gaborik was a much greater part of the Rangers' offense than Amonte. In Gaborik's 42 goal season, there wasn't even another Ranger who scored over 20 goals! In his 41 goal season, the next highest scoring Rangers had 25 and 29 goals. Even in his 22 goal season, he was 2 goals shy of the team lead and played 17 less games that the Rangers top goal scorer.

Amonte, on the other hand, was never the focus of the Rangers offense. The season he scored 35, Gartner scored 40, Messier also scored 35, two other wingers scored 30, and Graves scored 26. In Amonte's 33 goal season, he was behind two other wingers in goal scoring - Gartner with 45 and Graves with 36.

Amonte led Ranger wingers in assists 1 season. Gaborik did it twice.

On top of that, Gaborik was among the league leaders in goals scored in his two most productive seasons (5th and 7th overall). Amonte was never that high among the leagues goal scorers.

And now that I've done this exercise, I think Gaborik has to go into my Top 20 and someone else has to be moved out.

I stand corrected.
Didn't have time to over do all details, and from memory, thought Amonte, who did well and would have done better still if not dealt, was more worthy. Still, it's close enuf either way.

 

[bernmeister]

About a month or two ago, I was recently at a local trophy store getting a name plate added to a trophy and the owner asked if I wanted to see something cool. He then hands me a Frank Boucher Trophy that was awarded to Jean Ratelle. There wasn't a lot to it - small marble base with 4 rods going up about 16" to a second level with a small hockey player over a gold oval. They were going to refurbish it and then auction it off.

Way cool.
Hope it can be authenticated, and winds up with someone who'll appreciate it.

 

[bernmeister]

I watched Jan from the beginning of his career to the end of his career. You are entitled to your opinion but I respectfully disagree. He is not the kind of player that the other guys named were as Rangers. I'm not sure why you think he was around a 20 goal scorer by the end of his career. I think he scored around 50 goals for his whole career put together.

Accept cordial and respectful agree to disagree, esp. when you offer such CIVIL discourse and not arrogant as some do.

To be clear, not saying he had 20 yr average. Seemed to crack 20 around the end.

But this guy was defense on another level.
This is not like Rod Seiling counterpart in the pivot.

This guy was smoothest defensive F I ever saw.
He really did an INCREDIBLE job shutting down top counterparts, including creme de la creme guys like Lemieux.

To each his own.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Accept cordial and respectful agree to disagree, esp. when you offer such CIVIL discourse and not arrogant as some do.

To be clear, not saying he had 20 yr average. Seemed to crack 20 around the end.

But this guy was defense on another level.
This is not like Rod Seiling counterpart in the pivot.

This guy was smoothest defensive F I ever saw.
He really did an INCREDIBLE job shutting down top counterparts, including creme de la creme guys like Lemieux.

To each his own.

Thank you. I respect and appreciate the civil discussion. You are right that Jan did a solid job defensively. He had some good moments against Mario as you pointed out BUT Mario still owned us. In regards to the 20 goal mark I think your memory may be off. I looked after we spoke. Jan never scored 9 goals (never mind 20) in any season. His career high was 8. It may have seemed like more because he only averaged around 60 games a season.

 

[Chief]

The Erixon comments reminded me of a conversation I had with the Dir. of Player Personnel of an NHL team a few years ago. I asked him what he looked for first in a player: work ethic, character, skating, offensive ability, etc...and he responded, "Years ago I asked one of our scouts about Jan Erixon. He told me the player had a tremendous work ethic. I learned quick that if the first thing someone tells you about a player is his work ethic or his character, then what they're telling you is he has no skills."

I remember Erixon as being a defensive forward, but he was never a Selke finalist and his defensive efforts didn't get us very far in the end.

 

[Crease]

**Admin Note**

Friendly reminder that preliminary lists are due tomorrow at 12pm. If you wish to participate in the voting round, please PM your ranked top-20.

 

[Crease]

The Erixon comments reminded me of a conversation I had with the Dir. of Player Personnel of an NHL team a few years ago. I asked him what he looked for first in a player: work ethic, character, skating, offensive ability, etc...and he responded, "Years ago I asked one of our scouts about Jan Erixon. He told me the player had a tremendous work ethic. I learned quick that if the first thing someone tells you about a player is his work ethic or his character, then what they're telling you is he has no skills."

I remember Erixon as being a defensive forward, but he was never a Selke finalist and his defensive efforts didn't get us very far in the end.

Just saw this. Brilliant. Reminds me of a time someone wanted to set me up on a blind date. "Tell me about her." "Well, she really NICE."

 

[mrhockey193195]

I'll be very interested to see where Jagr ends up, given his short but dominant tenure here.

 

[Cake or Death]

I'll be very interested to see where Jagr ends up, given his short but dominant tenure here.

Short tenure guys are super hard to do, because you hate slighting guys who had a long history with the team. But Jagr was excellent in his time here. I personally had Jagr 8th, sandwiched between Lynn Patrick and Vic Hadfield.