Hey Terry, Do Us A Favor and SELL

[Ace]

Terry Pegula will pay Diggs 31 million dollars not to play here (actually to play against them)…but that 1.5 million for Granato is a bridge too far. the Sabres are a snake that eats themselves. Can’t pay unless they make money. Can’t make money without changes. Can’t make changes unless they pay.

 

[Ehran]

Terry Pegula will pay Diggs 31 million dollars not to play here (actually to play against them)…but that 1.5 million for Granato is a bridge too far. the Sabres are a snake that eats themselves. Can’t pay unless they make money. Can’t make money without changes. Can’t make changes unless they pay.

To be fair, I think that $31M number is what he will cost against the cap this year, not what the team will be paying him.

That number comes from previous bonuses that would normally be prorated across his remaining years (of his contract). It's already money paid.

I believe, and could very well be wrong, but the Bills will not be paying Diggs any more money. Texas will.

It's not like buying out an NHL contract. Whether this does or doesn't prove Pegula is cheap and / or unwilling to pay money on the Sabres is a different point.

 

[TehDoak]

Terry Pegula will pay Diggs 31 million dollars not to play here (actually to play against them)…but that 1.5 million for Granato is a bridge too far. the Sabres are a snake that eats themselves. Can’t pay unless they make money. Can’t make money without changes. Can’t make changes unless they pay.

That isn't how the NFL cap works.

That was bonus money that was already paid. The cap hit was divided over the length of the contract.

Moving him forced the cap hit to all get paid now.

 

[Jim Bob]

I checked out the #SellTheTeam hashtag and found this.

 

[BFLO]

To be fair, I think that $31M number is what he will cost against the cap this year, not what the team will be paying him.

That number comes from previous bonuses that would normally be prorated across his remaining years (of his contract). It's already money paid.

I believe, and could very well be wrong, but the Bills will not be paying Diggs any more money. Texas will.

It's not like buying out an NHL contract. Whether this does or doesn't prove Pegula is cheap and / or unwilling to pay money on the Sabres is a different point.

It being a bonus that was already paid, doesn't really change the fact that Pegula paid Diggs $31m not to play for the Bills for the next 4 years.

It's still cash out of Pegulas piggy bank for a player no longer here that was under contract for the next 4 years.

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

I checked out the #SellTheTeam hashtag and found this.

The fact that they have to play in a AAA ball park is ridiculous.

Sadly, Sutter Health Park is wayy nicer and in a much safer area of Sac then the coliseum.

 

[Ehran]

It being a bonus that was already paid, doesn't really change the fact that Pegula paid Diggs $31m not to play for the Bills for the next 4 years.

It's still cash out of Pegulas piggy bank for a player no longer here that was under contract for the next 4 years.

But the comment I was replying to was about Pegula being cheap. Inferring that Pegula refusing to pay Diggs $31M this season was part of that argument and I just cleared up that misunderstanding.

Refusing to cut or trade someone in order to make the team better because of money already paid is a sunk cost fallacy. I'm actually happy that the team was willing to move on no matter how much they had already paid.

 

[BFLO]

But the comment I was replying to was about Pegula being cheap. Inferring that Pegula refusing to pay Diggs $31M this season was part of that argument and I just cleared up that misunderstanding.

Refusing to cut or trade someone in order to make the team better because of money already paid is a sunk cost fallacy. I'm actually happy that the team was willing to move on no matter how much they had already paid.

That's not what the comment you were replying to said. It was this:

Terry Pegula will pay Diggs 31 million dollars not to play here (actually to play against them)…but that 1.5 million for Granato is a bridge too far. the Sabres are a snake that eats themselves. Can’t pay unless they make money. Can’t make money without changes. Can’t make changes unless they pay.

Ace is complaining that Pegula is willing to eat $31 mil to get rid of Diggs but isn't willing to eat $1.5 to get rid of Granato.

 

[Ehran]

That's not what the comment you were replying to said. It was this:

Ace is complaining that Pegula is willing to eat $31 mil to get rid of Diggs but isn't willing to eat $1.5 to get rid of Granato.

Eh, the use of "will pay" implying future payments is what I was replying to. You read it differently. That's fine, its a forum and everyone interprets differently.

 

[Jim Bob]

The fact that they have to play in a AAA ball park is ridiculous.

Sadly, Sutter Health Park is wayy nicer and in a much safer area of Sac then the coliseum.

The Arizona Coyotes agree.

Ace is complaining that Pegula is willing to eat $31 mil to get rid of Diggs but isn't willing to eat $1.5 to get rid of Granato.

The two are very different, though.

The $31M in dead cap for Diggs is just the salary cap implications for previously paid bonus money. Pegula does not have to pay Diggs another cent.

If they fire Granato, Pegula has to continue to pay his future salary while also paying his replacement.

The Diggs trade and the cap implications are apples and oranges with having to pay Granato after firing him.

 

[BFLO]

The Arizona Coyotes agree.




The two are very different, though.

The $31M in dead cap for Diggs is just the salary cap implications for previously paid bonus money. Pegula does not have to pay Diggs another cent.

If they fire Granato, Pegula has to continue to pay his future salary while also paying his replacement.

The Diggs trade and the cap implications are apples and oranges with having to pay Granato after firing him.

They're both sunk costs. Pegula was willing to eat the sunk cost on Diggs, but for whatever reason he doesn't appear to be willing to eat Granato's much smaller sunk cost.

Whether or not the money is paid as an upfront lumpsum bonus or as a guaranteed salary is irrelevant to it being a sunk cost or not. Pegula isn't getting the labor from Diggs that the $31m bonus paid for from 2024-2027. Just like if he fired Granato he won't be getting the labor that he'll be paying him for.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

The difference is the Bills print money, the Sabres bleed it.

 

[Tatanka]

They're both sunk costs. Pegula was willing to eat the sunk cost on Diggs, but for whatever reason he doesn't appear to be willing to eat Granato's much smaller sunk cost.

Whether or not the money is paid as an upfront lumpsum bonus or as a guaranteed salary is irrelevant to it being a sunk cost or not. Pegula isn't getting the labor from Diggs that the $31m bonus paid for from 2024-2027. Just like if he fired Granato he won't be getting the labor that he'll be paying him for.

The difference is the Bills print money, the Sabres bleed it.

The Bills are gifted money, as are all nfl franchises vis a vis the tv deal. The NHL not so much.

 

[Tijuana Donkey Show]

Diggs vs Granato isn’t even apples and oranges they are apples to carburetors.

Diggs money was paid in his restructure. On the roster. Off the roster. Doesn’t matter it was paid at the front end. But not all of not. And not all of it is gauranteed.

What wasn’t paid was the approximately $80M in base salary. So if Diggs finished out Diggs contract here Terry owes him another $80M. If he doesn’t he owes him nothing.

If Granato gets fired Terry owes him $3M. If Granato stays Terry owes him $3M.

 

[Tatanka]

Diggs vs Granato isn’t even apples and oranges they are apples to carburetors.

Diggs money was paid in his restructure. On the roster. Off the roster. Doesn’t matter it was paid at the front end. But not all of not. And not all of it is gauranteed.

What wasn’t paid was the approximately $80M in base salary. So if Diggs finished out Diggs contract here Terry owes him another $80M. If he doesn’t he owes him nothing.

If Granato gets fired Terry owes him $3M. If Granato stays Terry owes him $3M.

If Terry fires him, he owes him 3 mm plus what he pays for his replacement.

 

[Jim Bob]

They're both sunk costs. Pegula was willing to eat the sunk cost on Diggs, but for whatever reason he doesn't appear to be willing to eat Granato's much smaller sunk cost.

Whether or not the money is paid as an upfront lumpsum bonus or as a guaranteed salary is irrelevant to it being a sunk cost or not. Pegula isn't getting the labor from Diggs that the $31m bonus paid for from 2024-2027. Just like if he fired Granato he won't be getting the labor that he'll be paying him for.

Trading Diggs hurt them against the cap. But, it saved them $19M in cash in 2024.

Firing Granato obviously has zero cap impacts and it costs them more money to have a head coach. And who knows if there are years remaining on any of the assistant coaches.

Apples and oranges.

 

[May Day 10]

Other than Covid, are we sure the Sabres still 'bleed money"? It seems to be something repeated a lot without much data,

I know this was a big thing toward the end of the Knox era, and became a 'need to play home playoff games to break even' thing under Rigas and Golisano. Since the cap, and especially Pegula, a lot of the specifics seem to have quieted down. I know NHL clubs have bagged a lot of expansion fees, monetized additional tentpole events (as they put it), and have a much larger television and sponsorship pot. NHL revenues and cap keep rising and break their record levels.

I saw a year or 2 ago, Forbes had the Sabres at $25 Million in operating income.

That does not take into account the huge appreciation of the value of the team.

 

[Mattilaus]

If Terry fires him, he owes him 3 mm plus what he pays for his replacement.

if we are stating it this way, he owes Granato 3 million regardless of whether he fires him or not. The only additional cost acquired by Pegs is the cost for a new coach.

 

[Tatanka]

if we are stating it this way, he owes Granato 3 million regardless of whether he fires him or not. The only additional cost acquired by Pegs is the cost for a new coach.

Correct. In the example to which I commented, Diggs salary for the season was actually saved. The Bills didn’t pay anymore, they just realized it now and take the cap penalty. Actual cash, they save on.

 

[joshjull]

I am confused because the actions of the Sabres franchise since the firing of Botterill and the hiring of Adams on a number of fronts seem to be at odds with claims that Pegula made when he bought the team with regards to how it would be run under his ownership.

How things are run with the Sabres also seem to conflict with how the Bills are run currently.

The Bills have also been significantly more successful as of late. Maybe that is just coincedence. Maybe not.

The only difference between the teams is one of Pegula’s weird management ideas actually worked out. I think the Bills success has allowed people to forget how odd the management structure was after McDermott’s hiring. He was a first time NFL head coach given a ton of management power with no relevant experience and only answered to owner. Essentially sidelining the existing GM (Whaley) from having full control

That set up was another of Pegula’s hare-brained ideas where he gives a ton of power to someone because he really likes them. It’s a testament to McDermott’s abilities that it worked out. It’s a fairly dysfunctional set up that should have lead to failure. We got very lucky as Bills fans. So far we haven’t had the same luck with the Sabres. Its has nothing to do with Pegula taking a different approach with the Bills. It’s also pretty naive to think he’s not as involved with the Bills as he is with the Sabres. (My version of involved, not yours).

———————————————————————-

You are one of the sharper posters on here. So I’m a little surprised you’re pushing this nonsense that they stopped spending after Botts got fired.

1) The first season after Botts firing was the Covid season with almost no revenue. Yet they still spent to the upper limit. Which ensured Pegula’s losses would be 15+mil more than they would have been if they just spent to the lower limit.

2) Krueger got fired during the middle of the Covid season as well. He had another year left on a 3yr contract at 3.75mil per. So thats 4-5mil on a coach not coaching the team.

Neither of these things would happen if your assertion was correct.

It’s also weird that an obvious hockey reason for their lack of roster spending exists and you pretend that it doesn’t. I know you know what it is. It’s not like they haven’t talked about 1000x. That they were rebuilding with youth, drafting and development.


What sounds more logical?

1) That the owner who almost always spends on the roster. Even if it means he loses millions and possibly 10s of millions doing so. That he suddenly decided not to do that anymore.

OR

2) The current GM made his case for his plan to rebuild , the owner signed off on it and the GM is has been carrying through on it. Not unlike when Murray got the green light to go hard with the tank. Which is another time when the owner signed off on something knowing it would lead to losing initially and spending less on roster. Hopefully Adams’ year 4 (of current front office) is much better than Murray’s. Because I don’t see him getting fired.


THE DIFFERENCE between the teams is one lucked into a very good coach/management team and the other has not.

 

[joshjull]

Rochester will be accepting RFP's because the previous lease holder (Terry Pegula) no longer agrees to operate the arena and they need to find a replacement. Split hairs all you want, but that is the current situation.

When he dissolved PSE he told the city that basically it was only a change in naming and business structure and that they would continue to manage BCA. Then a few months later it did change nad Rochester is now accepting RFP's.

He keeps re-writting the rules.

He agreed to maintain KBC and has done the bare minimum. People have been having water dripping on them for years. Per the manufacturer the scoreboard should have been replaced years ago. It is well passed its life expectancy. Now he doesn't want to hold up his end of the bargain?

Pegula isn't the devil, but he is the worst owner in NHL history, and much worse than any of his predecessors in Buffalo or Rochester. Your need to be a constant Pegula apologist is odd.

Pegula apologist?

I’ve repeatedly posted he's 100% to blame for the situation we’re in. His terrible track record of management hires and the dubious manner in which he’s hired a few has been the issue. But I don’t get into the conspiracy theories or the over the top rants many of you love so much.

The comment about the lease wasn’t splitting hairs. I was referring to them not threating to sell/move the team. Which a complete withdrawal from the lease could indicate. Thats also something you also talked about right after mentioning the lease in the initial post I quoted. What Pegula is doing is a dick move. Unfortunately these types of things are becoming the norm with pro sports owners in the US.

Saying he’s the worst Amerks owner ever is pretty …….. I’ll be nice. They’ve only missed the playoffs 3x. They’ve had playoff success the last couple seasons they haven’t seen since the 04-05 season (full season NHL lockout). Thats almost 20yrs ago. Pegula has his warts but he’s hardly the worst owner ever for the Amerks.

As for the Sabres, he’s tied with Golisano/Quinn, maybe worse in my mind. Golisano/Quinn inherited one of the best teams in the NHL with a ton of depth. They had nothing to do with building it. But they were 100% responsible for tearing it apart in only 2 offseasons due to their contract policies and Quinn’s interference. This isn’t rumor or smoke as @Jim Bob would say. we got to listen to that asshat Quinn brag about the brilliance of their approach. We should have had another 3-5 years of exciting playoff hockey from that group. Instead it was taken from us. They also gutted the scouting department which made it hard to make up for all the losses. Their tenure played a role in us deciding to tank.


EDIT: In the shitty existence that is Sabres fandom the last decade+. It maddening to think how different everything would have been if it was Pegula, not Golisano that bought the team out of bankruptcy. We already had a good GM and coach, so Pegula’s biggest weakness as owner would have been negated. He would have spent lavishly to kept the bulk of that group together. Oh well. Thats enough torturing myself.

 

[The Blunder Years]

Saw a poster mention the Sabres bleeding money which got me curious as to their financial picture. Forbes has some historical financial data on the team.

In 2021 and 2020, they report an operating loss of $40M and $11M, respectively. This is obviously due to COVID and ticket sales. Then you look at the salary cap figures. In 2020 they were paying approximately $76M to their players. That number drops to the high $50M range for 2021 and 2022.

This has been discussed a lot on our boards over the last few years but It is just so clear that the rebuild and hiring of Adams/Granato was only to reduce costs and improve the bottom line. The whole “we’re going to build this the right way” mentality is just to keep us optimistic and okay while they are $20M under the cap and unwilling to make experience hires due to the cost associated.

I really don’t think winning is Terry’s first priority. I have a feeling the Sabres are nothing but an investment to him at this point and he will eventually sell. A good owner wouldn’t hold the team back to minimize expenses.

 

[Gabrielor]

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Saw a poster mention the Sabres bleeding money which got me curious as to their financial picture. Forbes has some historical financial data on the team.

In 2021 and 2020, they report an operating loss of $40M and $11M, respectively. This is obviously due to COVID and ticket sales. Then you look at the salary cap figures. In 2020 they were paying approximately $76M to their players. That number drops to the high $50M range for 2021 and 2022.

This has been discussed a lot on our boards over the last few years but It is just so clear that the rebuild and hiring of Adams/Granato was only to reduce costs and improve the bottom line. The whole “we’re going to build this the right way” mentality is just to keep us optimistic and okay while they are $20M under the cap and unwilling to make experience hires due to the cost associated.

I really don’t think winning is Terry’s first priority. I have a feeling the Sabres are nothing but an investment to him at this point and he will eventually sell. A good owner wouldn’t hold the team back to minimize expenses.

I wanna disagree and say it doesn’t make sense, as he’s also tanking the value of the franchise, but eh.. there’s a sick capitalist logic to it. We just saw Ottawa sell for $1 bil despite their dysfunction and a worse market, the actual state of the org doesn’t matter as much as being 1 of 32 owners as the value goes up again. Terry just reduced costs during the down years when selling wouldn’t work, now he’ll wait for the resultant boom and sell in 2 or 3 years with the least amount of capital and effort expended on his part.

In other news, sports teams should be collectively owned enterprises, and billionaires shouldn’t exist. Once you hit 999 million you get a plaque saying you won first place at Monopoly or life or whatever, good job, and profits start going towards society. Or they find a new way to hide their riches, whichever, point is I hate ‘em.

 

[The Blunder Years]

I wanna disagree and say it doesn’t make sense, as he’s also tanking the value of the franchise, but eh.. there’s a sick capitalist logic to it. We just saw Ottawa sell for $1 bil despite their dysfunction and a worse market, the actual state of the org doesn’t matter as much as being 1 of 32 owners as the value goes up again. Terry just reduced costs during the down years when selling wouldn’t work, now he’ll wait for the resultant boom and sell in 2 or 3 years with the least amount of capital and effort expended on his part.

In other news, sports teams should be collectively owned enterprises, and billionaires shouldn’t exist. Once you hit 999 million you get a plaque saying you won first place at Monopoly or life or whatever, good job, and profits start going towards society. Or they find a new way to hide their riches, whichever, point is I hate ‘em.

Even at our lowest points, the value of the franchise is still well above what he initially paid. I think due to COVID he wanted to run as lean of a ship as possible.



The arena is rough, the team sucks, the fans are pissed, and we’re the laughing stock of the league. All this is was true before everything was torn down in 2020/21. I still think the organizational motive for a few years was to cut costs EVERYWHERE, because the franchise is already tanked. Cheaping out won’t really impact a ship that’s already sinking. Why else would they give puzzles to the season ticket holders, who should be the organizations most important source of revenue.