Hey Terry, Do Us A Favor and SELL

[Tijuana Donkey Show]

Sabres miss playoffs, tie longest active playoff drought in pro sports

The Sabres’ 13-season playoff drought is tied with the NFL’s New York Jets for the longest in professional sports.

theathletic.com

2020-21 NHL Team Salary Cap Tracker

A real-time look at the 2020-21 salary cap totals for each NHL team, including estimated cap space.

www.spotrac.com

According to Spotrac, the Sabres payroll has ranked 28th, 31st, 32nd, and 28th in Kevyn Adams' four seasons as the Sabres GM.

Even in the season where they supposedly went for it with the Hall & Staal signings, they were 28th in the NHL in payroll.

I struggle to pair this with Terry's lack of general maintenance of the KBC, dissolving PSE/separating the Bills/Sabres, and pulling out of managing the arena in Rochester as anything other than giving himself the option of selling in the future.

The Rochester thing is especially fishy. When he dissolved PSE after Kim's issues the reports were that he specifically told Rochester that this would have no change to their ops and that it was merely clerical for business reasons. Not long after they opted out of managing the arena and said "don't worry we aren't going to leave".

I don't know if any of these teams will move but the whole thing is either terrible ownership/community stewardship or he is prepping to sell.

 

[sabremike]

I struggle to pair this with Terry's lack of general maintenance of the KBC, dissolving PSE/separating the Bills/Sabres, and pulling out of managing the arena in Rochester as anything other than giving himself the option of selling in the future.

The Rochester thing is especially fishy. When he dissolved PSE after Kim's issues the reports were that he specifically told Rochester that this would have no change to their ops and that it was merely clerical for business reasons. Not long after they opted out of managing the arena and said "don't worry we aren't going to leave".

I don't know if any of these teams will move but the whole thing is either terrible ownership/community stewardship or he is prepping to sell.

PSL Park isn't going to pay for itself and the Bills aren't going to be the part of his organization forced to reduce spending.

 

[DapperCam]

Pegulas purchased the Sabres and Bandits for $189 million in 2011. The team is now estimated to be worth $900 million, and if the purchasing price of relocating the Coyotes is true, then it’s more like $1 billion and up.

Tidy little profit for investing very little into the team operations and arena in the meantime (I guess they did build Harbor Center, which is cool).

 

[cardiffgiant]

Terry’s butler today

 

[sabremike]

Word going around is the Rochester Knighthawks are being sold and moved to Grand Rapids, MI.

You have no idea just how completely and totally f***ed we are. Think Poverty Franchise at a level that makes the Wang Islanders look like Vegas.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Word going around is the Rochester Knighthawks are being sold and moved to Grand Rapids, MI.

You have no idea just how completely and totally f***ed we are. Think Poverty Franchise at a level that makes the Wang Islanders look like Vegas.

I would think this is more in line with the NLL not wanting multiple teams owned by the same entity. In the MILL days it was a problem, eventually they restructured to prevent it; maybe Pegula had dispensation to restore RKH?

 

[Chainshot]

Word going around is the Rochester Knighthawks are being sold and moved to Grand Rapids, MI.

You have no idea just how completely and totally f***ed we are. Think Poverty Franchise at a level that makes the Wang Islanders look like Vegas.

That blows for Rochester - second time the Knighthawks would be moving in the last few years. I'm waiting for them to divest the Amerks ownership.

 

[sabremike]

I would think this is more in line with the NLL not wanting multiple teams owned by the same entity. In the MILL days it was a problem, eventually they restructured to prevent it; maybe Pegula had dispensation to restore RKH?

Pegula pulling out of operating Blue Cross Arena is why this is supposedly happening. I'm surprised nobody has come up with the idea to buy them and move them an hour east to Syracuse as given the history of Cuse lacrosse I think they could do very well (particularly if they load up the roster with former Syracuse stars).

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Pegula pulling out of operating Blue Cross Arena is why this is supposedly happening. I'm surprised nobody has come up with the idea to buy them and move them an hour east to Syracuse as given the history of Cuse lacrosse I think they could do very well (particularly if they load up the roster with former Syracuse stars).

The Smash were active for like 3 years in the 90s. They were terrible and had bad attendance before relocating. That was during a time when an entire division played on the thruway: Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany.

 

[sabremike]

The Smash were active for like 3 years in the 90s. They were terrible and had bad attendance before relocating. That was during a time when an entire division played on the thruway: Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany.

So it's like Long Island or Baltimore where it's just anti box lacrosse snobs?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

So it's like Long Island or Baltimore where it's just anti box lacrosse snobs?

I do think there's some of that. People who like lax there like the orange and that's that. Also after leaving SYR it was sold to the SJS who later sold it to VAN (who still own it). So an NHL team selling an NLL team isn't really worth getting spun up about.

 

[Fjordy]

Stupid idiot

 

[joshjull]

We have the wealthiest owner and he's running the club like Golisano did.

Actually, worse -- at least Galisano didn't insist on being part of hockey decisions. We have Terry in prospect interviews like he's a friggin scout, it's embarrassing.

You must have been living under a rock back then if you actually believe this.

Golisano/Quinn inherited one of the best/deepest teams in the NHL coming out of the lockout. Something they had nothing to do with building. But they were directly involved with destroying that team with their contract policies and Quinn’s meddling. They managed to kill that team in just two offseasons.

The decisons they made back then gutted the organization of talent at all levels over a fairly short period of time. Plus made it virtually impossible to build things back up. They also cemented a reputation that the organization is cheap. Their tenure played a decent role in sending us towards the decision to tank. Which was another mistake.

We’ve had a series of very crappy owners. But I will always view Golisano/Quinn as the worst because of what they had and then destroyed. They robbed us of another 3-5yrs of exciting playoff hockey from that group and left us hollowed out after selling.

 

[joshjull]

You can fire Granato, but the GM who thought it was a good idea to extend him two years before he had to is still here. You could fire the GM, but the owner who has failed to make the playoffs in his 13 years of ownership because of multiple bad GM hires is still here.

Until experienced adults enter the organization and start calling the shots, nothing changes.

That is the issue. I don’t see him selling the team. Our only hope is Adams and company figure it out after their mistakes this season.

We need some luck go our way. That one of his unusual approaches to hiring people works out like it did with the Bills.

 

[Tijuana Donkey Show]

https://rbj.net/2024/04/02/pegula-sports-will-relinquish-management-duties-at-rochester-arena/I would think this is more in line with the NLL not wanting multiple teams owned by the same entity. In the MILL days it was a problem, eventually they restructured to prevent it; maybe Pegula had dispensation to restore RKH?

When Pegula dissolved PSE he told Rochester not worry about the management of BCA, that it was just a change in business structure but their lease would hold.

Then they pulled out of the lease less than a year later and said "Don't worry, we are committed to Rochester and not selling".

Now they are selling the Knight Hawks.

Quote from Pegula Sports this month:

Pegula Sports will relinquish management duties at Rochester arena - Rochester Business Journal

Pegula Sports and Entertainment will relinquish operational control of Blue Cross Arena at the War Memorial in Rochester.

rbj.net

“This opt out is specific to the operation and management of the arena and the Rochester Americans and Knighthawks remain committed to the city of Rochester.

We don't know if Pegula will eventually sell the Sabres, Americans, or Bandits as well. But fans have every reason to be leary of it.

 

[Gabrielor]

You must have been living under a rock back then if you actually believe this.

Golisano/Quinn inherited one of the best/deepest teams in the NHL coming out of the lockout. Something they had nothing to do with building. But they were directly involved with destroying that team with their contract policies and Quinn’s meddling. They managed to kill that team in just two offseasons.

The decisons they made back then gutted the organization of talent at all levels over a fairly short period of time. Plus made it virtually impossible to build things back up. They also cemented a reputation that the organization is cheap. Their tenure played a decent role in sending us towards the decision to tank. Which was another mistake.

We’ve had a series of very crappy owners. But I will always view Golisano/Quinn as the worst because of what they had and then destroyed. They robbed us of another 3-5yrs of exciting playoff hockey from that group and left us hollowed out after selling.

If you ever need proof on how things used to be, go look at the 2010-2011 Sabre drafts, the peak of the 'we won't pay scouts to go to the games. video only' era, and it shows.

It also is part of the lost generation of Sabres before the Reinhart-Eichel drafts, which is why those guys came into a Sabres roster with 90% transplants as veterans.

 

[Chainshot]

If you ever need proof on how things used to be, go look at the 2010-2011 Sabre drafts, the peak of the 'we won't pay scouts to go to the games. video only' era, and it shows.

It also is part of the lost generation of Sabres before the Reinhart-Eichel drafts, which is why those guys came into a Sabres roster with 90% transplants as veterans.

2005-2011 are foundations of the end of Regier and the start of Murray era sucking. Throw in being one of the three best teams by odds to draft Sid in 2005 and instead coming out with almost nothing in that whole draft too. Dennis Persson... 05, 06, and 07 produced no top 6 forwards, one backup goalie, and no top 3 defensemen. It's why they are where they were when they decided to go with the tank.

 

[joshjull]

I said a number of fronts and not all fronts.

They spent to the limit for one season after Botts was fired apparently for refusing to layoff a huge chunk of the front office staff a few weeks after Kim Pegula said they had faith in Botts and the direction he was taking the team.

And Ralph had to go. Everyone could see it.

None of this refutes the fact that in the first season after Botts got fired there was no change in approach. They still spent to the upper limit and fired a coach with time left on his deal. Neither should happen if there was a fundamental change.

You still take the "Hmmm, I don't know" path to the questions about why, if money is no object, have they not done standard maintenance to KBC,

I’ve never said anything about “money being no object”. Don’t start making things up about what I’ve posted.

As for the arena, to my knowledge they've never really spent money on maintaining it. So it doesn’t tell us anything about their plans with the hockey side. Just that Pegula is a shitty owner.

why have they not added picks by brokering deals and retaining salary

They tried and it didn’t work out. Unless you think Adams was lying.

or taking on LTIR deals when they have had so much unused cap space over recent years?

This has always been such a pointless talking point. What impact did this have on this season? Absolutely none. Or the NHL roster in general the last few years? Absolutely none. What impact did it have on our ability to build one of the best prospect pools in the NHL? Absolutely none.

So something that had zero impact on anything wasn’t done. Even if Pegula told them not to do this as you keep insisting. Who gives a shit? It’s about as meaningless a complaint as there is. Thats kind of the point.

You are smart as well and I don't know why you look at all those areas where the Sabres are not acting like money is no object and wondering what has changed.

Again, I’ve never once argued money is no object.

 

[Gabrielor]

2005-2011 are foundations of the end of Regier and the start of Murray era sucking. Throw in being one of the three best teams by odds to draft Sid in 2005 and instead coming out with almost nothing in that whole draft too. Dennis Persson... 05, 06, and 07 produced no top 6 forwards, one backup goalie, and no top 3 defensemen. It's why they are where they were when they decided to go with the tank.

2009 was sneaky solid with lower lineup beef (Kassian, Foligno, McNabb) that was dismantled before its time.

The rest were complete trash.

 

[Chainshot]

2009 was sneaky solid with lower lineup beef (Kassian, Foligno, McNabb) that was dismantled before its time.

The rest were complete trash.

From '05-'11 they picked 1 top 4 defensemen in Myers, 1 top 6 forward in Ennis and no starting goalie. That's 52 picks where they managed 1 forward and 1 defenseman who one could consider a difference maker. They found some depth guys in there... but actual talent? Nah.

 

[joshjull]

why do they have one of the smallest pro scouting staffs in the NHL (they have 0 scouts listed as pro scouts on their website today and just Jeremiah Crowe as the director of Pro Scouting specifically named to a pro scouting role. The Flyers have 6 pro scouts for comparison),

I wanted to answer this one separately.

I can’t say for certain why the front office is structured the way it is. But that is the one area you are correct about a change. It’s smaller than the Botts era front offices. Thought it’s bigger than the in between era of Adams/Krueger. It could be how Adams/Karmanos want it with the overlapping responsibilities and analytics focus. It could be because Pegula doesn’t want to spend a lot on the front office. Either is a viable explanation. It could also be a combo of both.

 

[Jim Bob]

Again, I’ve never once argued money is no object.

Pegula did and he acted that way early in his ownership. He said money would be no object and that he would just drill another well to get money for the Sabres.

Then when Adams was hired, they had Adams lay off a ton of people on his first day, Pegula talked about being economical and efficient, the front office has been understaffed when compared to most of the teams they are competing against to make the EC playoffs, they have spent less on the roster, and the results have not been good enough.

My whole argument is that Pegula has chosen to invest less on the Sabres recently and that has not helped them end the drought by any stretch of the imagination. And it does not make me optimistic that they will spend what is needed to get the right people in the building to end the drought if this current economical and efficient approach continues again this offseason.

 

[Jim Bob]

I wanted to answer this one separately.

I can’t say for certain why the front office is structured the way it is. But that is the one area you are correct about a change. It’s smaller than the Botts era front offices. Thought it’s bigger than the in between era of Adams/Krueger. It could be how Adams/Karmanos want it with the overlapping responsibilities and analytics focus. It could be because Pegula doesn’t want to spend a lot on the front office. Either is a viable explanation. It could also be a combo of both.

I don't know why any competent front office person would think that pro scouts are unnecessary because they have two or three smart analytics people.

On the amateur scouting side, they have talked a lot about how the scouts and the analytics team work together. And we have seen pretty good results. I just don't know why on earth they wouldn't apply that same process to the pro scouting side and use pro scouts and analytics together. That seems to be what most well run NHL organizations do.

 

[Fezzy126]

From '05-'11 they picked 1 top 4 defensemen in Myers, 1 top 6 forward in Ennis and no starting goalie. That's 52 picks where they managed 1 forward and 1 defenseman who one could consider a difference maker. They found some depth guys in there... but actual talent? Nah.

I'm not disagreeing, but man I felt so different about their ability to scout and draft back then...

 

[TehDoak]

The real "unfortunate" thing about the Ottawa sale and now the Phoenix deal, the NHL has said "Even in a failing market, a NHL franchise is worth no less than 1 billion dollars"

And the one thing the NHL will not do is allow any deal that causes the franchise values to fall. In most markets, owners who lose money every year are being made whole, on paper at least, by the franchise value growth. If the value was to drop, than I think there would be a bit of a race to cash out by more than a few.

Even if Terry and Kim decided, today, that they are going to put the team on the market, I don't think they could find a buyer at 1B, especially with the state of the Arena. The Penguins got 900M with a less than 15 year old arena and 2 championships in the last decade. Buffalo has the need for either a brand new arena or a major refurbishment, which is going to be a 100M bill in the next few years.

I think the best hope would be to find a situation like Fenway Sports Group (a group looking to add a NHL team to their portfolio), but I have to think the price considering the market, dormant fan base, and arena won't fetch a high enough return to justify the hitting the premium cash price the NHL will demand.