Player Discussion Henrik Lundqvist: Part II

[UnSandvich]

You’re all gonna look like clowns when Henrik ends up backing up Igor all of next season and plays out his contract.

I'll be just as sad then as I will be if he's gone this offseason

 

[Ardi44]

its bad asset management to buy him out. In two years youll have most likely lost Hank and Georgiev for little to no assets. If Igor is the clear #1, they have to try and max assets in trading Georgiev

 

[Leonardo87]

Would prefer to have Hank back up Igor. Would be a good mentor. The cap hit sucks but if the Rangers can move Staal and Smith would be more preferred than Hank.

I Would like to see see Hank go out the Ryan Miller route. Although here the Ducks want to bring him back one more year to back up Gibson. It’s nice when you have a choice to play again and are still wanted or retire on your own merits and not be forced to retire. I hope Hank can find that if not here, somewhere else.

 

[NYRKING30]

It’s funny how everyone assumes Georgiev is going to be completely content with being back up for years to come. He most likely isn’t going to be here past next season or 2 max anyway.

 

[eco's bones]

Does anyone really think that Henrik is happy or is going to be happy playing second fiddle to Igor. Igor doesn't need Henrik as a mentor either. Benoit Allaire is the goaltending coach. He's got the mentor job.

There's too much drama going on with this for me. Some people are too damn sentimental. Henrik's numbers the last two years especially have been abysmal really. Blame it on the D but it's the same D in front of Alex and Igor. I have a lot more doubt that Henrik can play 30 games and break even on standings points than I have with Alex. Just saying.

It's time to cut the cord as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Rangers394]

I remember Valiquette saying something about Shesterkin being good but he will have to do it consistently in a full season playing over 50+ games and he made a good point.

Keeping Georgiev is more important than people think since he can help ease Shesterkin in. Last thing we need to do is throw too many games at Shesterkin. I'm sure he can handle it but still.

 

[eco's bones]

I remember Valiquette saying something about Shesterkin being good but he will have to do it consistently in a full season playing over 50+ games and he made a good point.

Keeping Georgiev is more important than people think since he can help ease Shesterkin in. Last thing we need to do is throw too many games at Shesterkin. I'm sure he can handle it but still.

I agree and people should keep in mind that teams go into seasons with goaltending plans. Also should keep in mind that the most games Igor has played in a single season is 51 (including playoffs) and that goes back to 2013-2014. He's used to 40 to 45 game seasons including playoffs. We might well burn him out if we go into an 82 game season with him--expect him to play 60 games and then go deep into the playoffs playing even higher intensity games. We're going to need a good backup and one we can depend on. Goaltending in the NHL is analogous to pitching in MLB. If you don't have enough of it you're not going far.

My idea (if we're playing an 82 game regular season) for Igor would be about 50 regular season games and then have him as our main starter for the playoffs. The backup is going to have to play at least 30 and we can say Alex isn't going to be happy playing backup forever but if we're going down that road we might as well say that Henrik isn't going to be happy being backup At All and might as well point out that Henrik's numbers are declining from season to season. If Igor plays 50 games and goes 30-16-4--that's pretty good--that's 64 standings points. To get to the playoffs our backup is going to have to at least break even on wins and losses to get our team to 95/96 standings points. That's squeaking in. It's an important job. I don't think Henrik is up to it anymore.

 

[Trxjw]

Does anyone really think that Henrik is happy or is going to be happy playing second fiddle to Igor. Igor doesn't need Henrik as a mentor either. Benoit Allaire is the goaltending coach. He's got the mentor job.

There's too much drama going on with this for me. Some people are too damn sentimental. Henrik's numbers the last two years especially have been abysmal really. Blame it on the D but it's the same D in front of Alex and Igor. I have a lot more doubt that Henrik can play 30 games and break even on standings points than I have with Alex. Just saying.

It's time to cut the cord as far as I'm concerned.

I agree that Igor doesn't need Hank to mentor him but there's a lot more to being a mentor than what Allaire provides. Hank has a decade and a half of experience in net and that's valuable knowledge transfer for a kid who is just breaking into the league. It also wouldn't be a bad thing to have a guy with his experience being able to help him once teams start to get a scouting report on Igor's weaknesses and he has to battle through it.

Of course that isn't something Hank couldn't do as a consultant or team employee but I don't think it should be written off either.

 

[True Blue]

Does anyone really think that Henrik is happy or is going to be happy playing second fiddle to Igor. Igor doesn't need Henrik as a mentor either. Benoit Allaire is the goaltending coach. He's got the mentor job.

There's too much drama going on with this for me. Some people are too damn sentimental. Henrik's numbers the last two years especially have been abysmal really. Blame it on the D but it's the same D in front of Alex and Igor. I have a lot more doubt that Henrik can play 30 games and break even on standings points than I have with Alex. Just saying.

It's time to cut the cord as far as I'm concerned.

If you put gun to the head of management, I am betting you would find that they are hoping that Henke rides off into the sunset.

 

[eco's bones]

I agree that Igor doesn't need Hank to mentor him but there's a lot more to being a mentor than what Allaire provides. Hank has a decade and a half of experience in net and that's valuable knowledge transfer for a kid who is just breaking into the league. It also wouldn't be a bad thing to have a guy with his experience being able to help him once teams start to get a scouting report on Igor's weaknesses and he has to battle through it.

Of course that isn't something Hank couldn't do as a consultant or team employee but I don't think it should be written off either.

Who is the last so-called mentor that we had---Wade Redden? Take a look at the two years Redden played in Hartford for the Connecticut Whale. McDonagh plays half a season in the AHL and half in the NHL in his first year. Del Zotto gets sent down--plays 11 games gets injured--season over. McIlrath shows up for 2 games after his WHL season closes. Tomas Kundratek?--Stu Bickel? The next year Tim Erixon?--more Stu Bickel. Redden's time in Hartford arguably didn't help anyone become an NHL player---McDonagh was going to make it anyway. All Redden really did was make a big paycheck there.

To me this mentor idea isn't serious. If Henrik's the backup he's going to have to play 30 or so games and he's going to have to do well. That will be his job. The worse he does the more pressure on Igor to carry the team. If Henrik doesn't play well the Rangers will be in serious trouble. Question of whether you want to have a $8.5 mil cap on your backup goalie? It's a legit question. Question as well whether he'll show further signs of decline and/or not be happy in his role? Question of where the team is going with him in general? And if we have more bubble hockey--he's in his hotel room with his guitar, playing the games Igor doesn't but playing less games and wife and family are back home in Sweden? for 6/7 months? How will that work out? Best thing he could do for the Rangers is retire and forgo the cap hit which would benefit the Rangers a lot. It might also be the best thing he could do for himself.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

If you put gun to the head of management, I am betting you would find that they are hoping that Henke rides off into the sunset.

I'm not sure how they couldn't hope for that.

 

[Trxjw]

Who is the last so-called mentor that we had---Wade Redden? Take a look at the two years Redden played in Hartford for the Connecticut Whale. McDonagh plays half a season in the AHL and half in the NHL in his first year. Del Zotto gets sent down--plays 11 games gets injured--season over. McIlrath shows up for 2 games after his WHL season closes. Tomas Kundratek?--Stu Bickel? The next year Tim Erixon?--more Stu Bickel. Redden's time in Hartford arguably didn't help anyone become an NHL player---McDonagh was going to make it anyway. All Redden really did was make a big paycheck there.

To me this mentor idea isn't serious. If Henrik's the backup he's going to have to play 30 or so games and he's going to have to do well. That will be his job. The worse he does the more pressure on Igor to carry the team. If Henrik doesn't play well the Rangers will be in serious trouble. Question of whether you want to have a $8.5 mil cap on your backup goalie? It's a legit question. Question as well whether he'll show further signs of decline and/or not be happy in his role? Question of where the team is going with him in general? And if we have more bubble hockey--he's in his hotel room with his guitar, playing the games Igor doesn't but playing less games and wife and family are back home in Sweden? for 6/7 months? How will that work out? Best thing he could do for the Rangers is retire and forgo the cap hit which would benefit the Rangers a lot. It might also be the best thing he could do for himself.

I'm not debating the cap hit or the mental ability of Hank to be a back up. I was just talking about being a mentor to a player. Veteran players mentor younger players all the time. You can shit on Redden if you like but McDonagh mentioned him specifically as a great mentor to have while he was adjusting to pro hockey with the Pack/Whale. Kreider has mentored Buchnevich. Jagr mentored Prucha. Sometimes players don't work out but you can't say that because they didn't carve out extensive NHL careers that they didn't benefit along the way.

 

[eco's bones]

I'm not debating the cap hit or the mental ability of Hank to be a back up. I was just talking about being a mentor to a player. Veteran players mentor younger players all the time. You can shit on Redden if you like but McDonagh mentioned him specifically as a great mentor to have while he was adjusting to pro hockey with the Pack/Whale. Kreider has mentored Buchnevich. Jagr mentored Prucha. Sometimes players don't work out but you can't say that because they didn't carve out extensive NHL careers that they didn't benefit along the way.

Still we have Allaire and Allaire is there to work on the techniques and the flaws of any of the goaltenders of which there are usually only two. I'm sure Henrik and Igor get along well enough but what works sometimes for one won't work so well for the other. There are similarities to their goaltending games but also things that are unique to each. If you're talking about how hard Henrik works off the ice as an example to others or his mental preparedness that speaks more to your argument but the actual skills I don't see where Henrik could help Igor at all and he'd be intruding into Allaire's domain.

As for what would benefit the Rangers the most it would be Henrik retiring from the NHL. The Rangers recouping his cap hit and using it to flesh out the team's overall depth which IMO showed to be it's greatest weakness against Carolina.

Final point---the day when Henrik and Marc Staal are no longer active Rangers players will be a new day for the team. We will have reconfigured fully at that point and IMO it's something we should all look forward too. This isn't about disrespecting either. They were both great Rangers and one of them will very deservedly go into the HOF.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

its bad asset management to buy him out. In two years youll have most likely lost Hank and Georgiev for little to no assets. If Igor is the clear #1, they have to try and max assets in trading Georgiev

This is stupid. How is it bad asset management to buy-out Hank? Hank is a worthless player to the Rangers right now, other than sentimentality. Even at 50% retained, I find it hard to believe that someone is trading more than a mid to late round pick for him. Keeping Hank around somehow means you end up with three goalies if they don't want to move George right away.

So, you already impact George's value since Hank would have to get a game in every now and then which means less games for George.

If you buy Hank out, you can theoretically keep George and let him get in around 30 games or so. This means you can then trade him if he performs well (in the offseason or even at the deadline). What are you expecting to get for him right now? Are you thinking that his value right now is the highest it will be? I find that to be a very iffy proposition.

Even if you trade George now, it would be stupid to not buy Hank out and bring in a low-cost back-up. Why? Because you save $3M right away.

There is no scenario in which it is somehow "bad asset management" to not buy out Hank if he does not retire or cannot be traded. It makes no sense at all to keep him. There is not a single scenario where Hank should be a Ranger next year.

 

[Trxjw]

Still we have Allaire and Allaire is there to work on the techniques and the flaws of any of the goaltenders of which there are usually only two. I'm sure Henrik and Igor get along well enough but what works sometimes for one won't work so well for the other. There are similarities to their goaltending games but also things that are unique to each. If you're talking about how hard Henrik works off the ice as an example to others or his mental preparedness that speaks more to your argument but the actual skills I don't see where Henrik could help Igor at all and he'd be intruding into Allaire's domain.

As for what would benefit the Rangers the most it would be Henrik retiring from the NHL. The Rangers recouping his cap hit and using it to flesh out the team's overall depth which IMO showed to be it's greatest weakness against Carolina.

Final point---the day when Henrik and Marc Staal are no longer active Rangers players will be a new day for the team. We will have reconfigured fully at that point and IMO it's something we should all look forward too. This isn't about disrespecting either. They were both great Rangers and one of them will very deservedly go into the HOF.

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you about the best approach for the team overall. Just the mentoring aspect. Coaching is great and Allaire is the top of the heap there. However, Hank has a career's worth of tips and analysis he could pass on to Igor. "This is what Ovie does right before he's about to cut inside." "Watch for when the play slides back towards the blue line because that's when Tavares tries to sneak to the side of the net." "I remember the time when I got pulled after 5 goals...etc." These are the things that a mentor provides. Can you get them from tape and video coaches? Sure, but it's different when it comes from someone you look up to as a person, let alone someone you grew up idolizing. not to mention the back up goalie can give that advice between whistles as opposed to between periods or games.

I don't love the idea of a $8.5m back up goalie, nor do I know if Hank has the right mental make-up to play that role, but I think it's erroneous to say there aren't potentially some benefits if he can.

 

[Chimpradamus]

This thread makes me sad

It's almost like an obituary

Isn't that how most NYR stars are lifted into the drafters after their career is over and treated? "Well, we congratulate you for carrying us, but the moment you didn't carry us for eternity, we wanted you gone by whatever means. 5-10% of your career, we don't care. What have you done for me in the last quarter?"

From a management standpoint, you cannot only run numbers. To be this daft is a reason for far more extensions how delicate delicate strings you need, to find a winning culture with loyalty in a team. You have to find loyalty to make a team a unit and find connections beyond money and a career. And if you as leadership only crunch numbers and treat individual players as their current worth in the stock and money stocks, you get a big dollar bovine group incapable of winning anything, merely only perform at their individual level. Because you will always in the end have mercenaries and not patriots. Because the heart for a team isn't there from the ownership. It's a leasure for the upper class. There is no identity apart from the scraps the hired players can try to form together.

Dolan is a terrible owner. He should never own companies that actually matter for the poor subjects he subtracts money from. He should only get his dough in soulless companies he has the heart for. A true capitalist.

When you have a team culture of milking cows dry and then throwing them out into the gutters, you have a seeping culture growing into the team that will never have the qualities you need from winning it all, above all else.

When your team is a business, the importance of the actual competition is merely entertainment. The results aren't needed if it brings more money not winning. Or who cares regardless? An owner that doesn't care? Great.

 

[Rangers394]

Isn't that how most NYR stars are lifted into the drafters after their career is over and treated? "Well, we congratulate you for carrying us, but the moment you didn't carry us for eternity, we wanted you gone by whatever means. 5-10% of your career, we don't care. What have you done for me in the last quarter?"

From a management standpoint, you cannot only run numbers. To be this daft is a reason for far more extensions how delicate delicate strings you need, to find a winning culture with loyalty in a team. You have to find loyalty to make a team a unit and find connections beyond money and a career. And if you as leadership only crunch numbers and treat individual players as their current worth in the stock and money stocks, you get a big dollar bovine group incapable of winning anything, merely only perform at their individual level. Because you will always in the end have mercenaries and not patriots. Because the heart for a team isn't there from the ownership. It's a leasure for the upper class. There is no identity apart from the scraps the hired players can try to form together.

Dolan is a terrible owner. He should never own companies that actually matter for the poor subjects he subtracts money from. He should only get his dough in soulless companies he has the heart for. A true capitalist.

When you have a team culture of milking cows dry and then throwing them out into the gutters, you have a seeping culture growing into the team that will never have the qualities you need from winning it all, above all else.

When your team is a business, the importance of the actual competition is merely entertainment. The results aren't needed if it brings more money not winning. Or who cares regardless? An owner that doesn't care? Great.

Thought i was the only one who thought the culture sucked. Good post.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you about the best approach for the team overall. Just the mentoring aspect. Coaching is great and Allaire is the top of the heap there. However, Hank has a career's worth of tips and analysis he could pass on to Igor. "This is what Ovie does right before he's about to cut inside." "Watch for when the play slides back towards the blue line because that's when Tavares tries to sneak to the side of the net." "I remember the time when I got pulled after 5 goals...etc." These are the things that a mentor provides. Can you get them from tape and video coaches? Sure, but it's different when it comes from someone you look up to as a person, let alone someone you grew up idolizing. not to mention the back up goalie can give that advice between whistles as opposed to between periods or games.

I don't love the idea of a $8.5m back up goalie, nor do I know if Hank has the right mental make-up to play that role, but I think it's erroneous to say there aren't potentially some benefits if he can.

Exactly.

I also found it funny that another poster referenced Redden as the last mentor we had in the organization and scoffed at his contributions as a mentor, when McDonagh himself is the first person to mention Wade and how much he learned from him at a young age.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Thought i was the only one who thought the culture sucked. Good post.

That much is obvious, I think. I also know neither you nor I are the only ones deeply critical of the decades of following a team owned by a... true capitalist. That is an insult in my culture, but maybe not as much in yours. But when you see how matters beyond money - in an organization created to earn money - will deeply affect the effectiveness of such, it is very obvious why some franchises have a chance to become dynasties, while some never will be, regardless of how much money they have. It is no secret why the monetary power houses of Toronto and New York are so incredibly unsuccessful in the act of winning. Because the money involved and the company prestige for the owner is so large you could just as well be as cynical as running a drug cartel and require the leadership of such. It doesn't matter if the ownership is for your leasure and you believe you know anything of running a hockey team in the same terms you run an Amazon hub in France.

The only problem is presenting the matter in a way that most people won't start screaming of your spelling errors or that you aren't objective. Then add your favourite demonization of the writer in whichever way suitable, mention nonsense not regarding the matter to steer the argument in another way. In the end, you're left with a big money company in the hands of a big company idiot that should never have his hands in an organization where the success can be measured beyond money - and actually have a purpose in a culture.

The moment the New York Rangers are sold to someone else than Dolan, they have a chance of actually becoming successful. During his ownership, it has been an absolute joke, but he doesn't care, he earns money regardless. That the Knicks have been absolutely pathetic isn't exactly speaking against it. He's an ignorant money prince that wants his press box to earn money while having his rush, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Rangers394]

That much is obvious, I think. I also know neither you nor I are the only ones deeply critical of the decades of following a team owned by a... true capitalist. That is an insult in my culture, but maybe not as much in yours. But when you see how matters beyond money - in an organization created to earn money - will deeply affect the effectiveness of such, it is very obvious why some franchises have a chance to become dynasties, while some never will be, regardless of how much money they have. It is no secret why the monetary power houses of Toronto and New York are so incredibly unsuccessful in the act of winning. Because the money involved and the company prestige for the owner is so large you could just as well be as cynical as running a drug cartel and require the leadership of such. It doesn't matter if the ownership is for your leasure and you believe you know anything of running a hockey team in the same terms you run an Amazon hub in France.

The only problem is presenting the matter in a way that most people won't start screaming of your spelling errors or that you aren't objective. Then add your favourite demonization of the writer in whichever way suitable, mention nonsense not regarding the matter to steer the argument in another way. In the end, you're left with a big money company in the hands of a big company idiot that should never have his hands in an organization where the success can be measured beyond money - and actually have a purpose in a culture.

The moment the New York Rangers are sold to someone else than Dolan, they have a chance of actually becoming successful. During his ownership, it has been an absolute joke, but he doesn't care, he earns money regardless. That the Knicks have been absolutely pathetic isn't exactly speaking against it. He's an ignorant money prince that wants his press box to earn money while having his rush, regardless of the outcome.

Good post. Dolan should see this in his email

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Geo should be traded no matter what happens with Hank.

A veteran backup can be signed for less than Geo will get if you need one.

 

[haohmaru]

Even if you trade George now, it would be stupid to not buy Hank out and bring in a low-cost back-up. Why? Because you save $3M right away.

You don't "save $3M right away". Why? Because you still need a backup goalie that you have to PAY and you're on the hook for 1.5M the following season for NOTHING. Buying out Lundqvist makes no sense - financially or other. Backup next year, trade Georgiev, and in 2021-22 you're GTG. Rangers aren't doing shit next year either and Shesterkin clearly looks up to the guy and has said as much. I'd like to think he'd learn quite a bit more than this year with the three goalie turnstile stupidity that we fielded during the season. The right thing to do, the right the for NYR and Shesterkin, and 2021 without dead cap.

 

[eco's bones]

It's not really fair to a player to defer to another player just because of legacy. Before Igor was called up Georgiev had already displaced Henrik as the Rangers better goalie. He was already playing more than Henrik. For instance in the 15 games prior to Igor playing his first game Alex started 9 out of the 15. He was just too inconsistent and couldn't get the team beyond 4 games above .500 and Igor was playing lights out in Hartford.

As far as who owns teams----that's a pretty easy one---people who are rich as f***. I don't own any teams and I'm not rich as f***. I have been a Rangers fan since 1971-72 meaning I've also seen several changes of ownership. Every time a new owner or ownership group comes along the one thing they all have in common is they're rich as f*** too. As far as capitalism goes--I'm not a capitalist. I would identify as an economic socialist. Jimmy Dolan can own the Rangers as long as he wants--I've been a Rangers fan since 1971-72. I'm guessing I was here before he was. The Rangers are the only team I really follow--I'm not giving them up just because of Jimmy Dolan.

What's almost always said by players after one of their teammates gets traded? 'It's a business' as in the players know it too and the majority of NHL players are lucky as f*** to be in the occupation they're in or at least if they manage to avoid a life defining injury. They get to do something they love for their work and are for the most part treated very well by their employers and most will make more money in a year than I did in my lifetime. I retired from the Post Office. I didn't like my job much but I did it. Of my 28 and a half years there I did about 25 and a half of them on graveyards sorting mail in one way or another. I don't begrudge those who have had better luck than me--there are more people that I had better luck than the other way around. I didn't like my job sure--but I consider myself lucky for having it as a fugitive from failure as my dad (a two time purple heart WWII USMC vet) would call it. My cycle with the Post Office came to the end too though just like Henrik's with the Rangers is coming to an end as well.

 

[The S5]

As much as we like to romanticize the end of a players career, its not reality in 2020. These players are payed a ransom to play a game. Management is on a continual short leash. Doing what will produce the most success is always the plan. If that means buying out a player, that is what you do. There will be a day dedicated to Hank in a few years, where they raise his jersey to the rafters of the Garden. Buying him out won't change that day.

As far as mentoring goes, I think that's nonsense. Hank telling Igor that Ovi likes to shoot from the left dot doens't mean a thing. As a former goaltender, the last thing your thinking about is "oh, there's Tavaras, Hank told me he likes to go 5 hole". If any thought like that is going through your head, your already beat. A locked in goalie is only focused on the moment.

At the end of the day, I think Hank is a large presence in the locker room. This team needs to move on from his leadership and allow the younger guys to take leadership roles. They are the future. The sooner this happens, the better it will be for the team.

 

[haohmaru]

As far as mentoring goes, I think that's nonsense. Hank telling Igor that Ovi likes to shoot from the left dot doens't mean a thing. As a former goaltender, the last thing your thinking about is "oh, there's Tavaras, Hank told me he likes to go 5 hole". If any thought like that is going through your head, your already beat. A locked in goalie is only focused on the moment.

Is this really your take on mentoring? Come on.

“- Igor, who’s your idol?
- Lundqvist. He was, he is and he will always be my idol”

"Henrik Lundqvist is my idol since I was a little boy, so I very much look forward to seeing him on the ice and learning what he does on the ice ," the 23-year-old goalie said at Rangers development camp in June. "Playing with him someday on the same team, obviously there is some work to be done in that regard.

His locker is next to Lundqvist.

I'm sure the 6th winningest goalie in NHL history has a little more to offer than where Ovie shoots.