Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[TS Quint]

I figured this forum would be a better place for this, things were getting WAY off topic in the other thread.

The most recent Hockey News redraft of 2019 had Heinola move up 4 spots from his draft position.

Now while the Hockey News certainly isn't what it once was, the Athletic just months ago did one as well ranking 7 tiers of projected status.

TIER 1: Projected NHL All-Star
TIER 2: Projected bubble NHL All-Star and top of lineup player
TIER 3: Projected top of lineup player
TIER 4: Projected bubble top and middle of lineup player
TIER 5: Projected middle of lineup player
TIER 6: Projected to play NHL games
TIER 7: Has a chance to play games

They ranked Heinola 19th of the entire 2019 draft class, the 5th ranked defensemen & as a tier 4 prospect projected to bubble as top pairing defensemen. Corey Pronman wrote the article.

Just today, Ates just wrote this about Heinola;

"Heinola completely controls the AHL game, even when he’s outmuscled. Every play runs through him, every pass is incisive and he’s a threat every time he’s in the offensive zone. The Moose exploit his strengths by encouraging him to be very aggressive in the neutral zone, stepping up on transition plays to turn pucks over and go on the attack."

I never said he wasn't a good AHL player, so I agree with Murat.

I hope I'm wrong. Obviously I want all the Jet prospects to be blue chip 1st liners. I'm just not seeing it yet with Heinola.

So far I'm seeing a "puck moving defenseman" who moves the puck to the other team far too often and if I'm the opposing team I'm skating straight to his side of the ice because he isn't turning the puck over. Maybe he needs a couple more years to gain some strength but right now he's weak as a kitten.

Morrissey as another under sized defensemen for example didn't have these problems at the same age. Maurice always talked about how impressed he was about Morrissey's ability to come out of the corner with the puck. Heinola isn't doing that. He's just trying is best to stay on the right side of the puck and not get burned hoping someone else will come along and help get the puck back.

He did show some flashes of decent play in the offensive zone getting hard shots to the net in his last few games. I hope he can build off that and turn that into some PP2 time eventually and help get him some more ice time.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

Tonight was an excellent example of how Ville can be utilized to maximize the skill set that he has. Strong on the PP. I think he is a very good "fit" on the Moose. Their defense has a nice balance. The type of balance I hope the Jets can achieve.

So again, I don't see how Ville fits on this Jets team. As it stands now, he would not supplant Josh, Pionk or Schmidt on the PP. Nothing stood out beyond average on his PK abilities. Chisolm has a similar skill set and should be a better fit for us.

I'm certainly cheering for him. I'm also cheering for Chevy to maximize every asset in the organization to make the Jets better. Ville will not be a happy hockey player if he's not given a shot somewhere in the NHL next year.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Tonights #1 star from your Manitoba Moose

 

[BoneDocUK]

Tonight was an excellent example of how Ville can be utilized to maximize the skill set that he has. Strong on the PP. I think he is a very good "fit" on the Moose. Their defense has a nice balance. The type of balance I hope the Jets can achieve.

So again, I don't see how Ville fits on this Jets team. As it stands now, he would not supplant Josh, Pionk or Schmidt on the PP. Nothing stood out beyond average on his PK abilities. Chisolm has a similar skill set and should be a better fit for us.

I'm certainly cheering for him. I'm also cheering for Chevy to maximize every asset in the organization to make the Jets better. Ville will not be a happy hockey player if he's not given a shot somewhere in the NHL next year.

Another consideration is cap efficiency -- paying Pionk or Schmidt nearly 6 million to do what Ville should be able to do (and maybe, eventually, more) for 1/5 or so of that many means you're losing out on that strong middle 6 forward at 3-4 million.

You develop players in-house so they can help your team move forward efficiently, making space and room for key holes to be plugged.

Bringing in Schmidt and Dillon with term means that one or more of them, Stanley, Heinola or Samberg needs to be moved. Chevy is paying a heavy price in several ways: spending yet more picks, even it it's "only" 2nds and 3rds, blocking prospects with high potential upsides, and losing a substantial amount of cap room and efficiency.

The 2017-18 Jets were a hugely cap efficient team. The 2021-22 Jets were right on the edge all season long. Sure, Little's move means an easier path, but imagine this team with some combo of Heinola / Samberg /Stanley in place of Dillon / Schmidt -- is there really much in the way of a diowngrade in terms of performance for the 8 - 10 million you're saving in cap space?

You draft prospects. You invest huge amounts in developing them. Then you reap the rewards in terms of team continuity and cap efficiency. But we are not doing that atm.

And (nothing to do with you, @Upperdeckjet!) I stand by my earlier comments re prospects. Respectful and informed discussion is always interesting. "X sucks / has busted / bag of pucks time!" stuff is just trollery, IMO. It sends useful threads into back n' forth freefall.

Anyway. Go Moose, Go Jets draft, here's hoping for a best-ever offseason.

 

[surixon]

Another consideration is cap efficiency -- paying Pionk or Schmidt nearly 6 million to do what Ville should be able to do (and maybe, eventually, more) for 1/5 or so of that many means you're losing out on that strong middle 6 forward at 3-4 million.

You develop players in-house so they can help your team move forward efficiently, making space and room for key holes to be plugged.

Bringing in Schmidt and Dillon with term means that one or more of them, Stanley, Heinola or Samberg needs to be moved. Chevy is paying a heavy price in several ways: spending yet more picks, even it it's "only" 2nds and 3rds, blocking prospects with high potential upsides, and losing a substantial amount of cap room and efficiency.

The 2017-18 Jets were a hugely cap efficient team. The 2021-22 Jets were right on the edge all season long. Sure, Little's move means an easier path, but imagine this team with some combo of Heinola / Samberg /Stanley in place of Dillon / Schmidt -- is there really much in the way of a diowngrade in terms of performance for the 8 - 10 million you're saving in cap space?

You draft prospects. You invest huge amounts in developing them. Then you reap the rewards in terms of team continuity and cap efficiency. But we are not doing that atm.

And (nothing to do with you, @Upperdeckjet!) I stand by my earlier comments re prospects. Respectful and informed discussion is always interesting. "X sucks / has busted / bag of pucks time!" stuff is just trollery, IMO. It sends useful threads into back n' forth freefall.

Anyway. Go Moose, Go Jets draft, here's hoping for a best-ever offseason.

Agreed on the cap argument. We need some good contributions on ELC to help this group contend. That was how the 17-18 group was able to be such a deep team. You could have expensive middle 6 and bottom paring talent with a good chunk of your top 6 and top 4 on ELC's or bridge deals.

We need Cole to give us good top 6 contributions (Already started seeing that) and VIlle, Samberg to give us good top 4 caliber contributions on ELC's and bridge deals to get this team back on track. You get two top 4 caliber players and a top 6 caliber player for under $5 million in cap this way. It allows you to spend more cap on other areas like scoring depth.

Ville has proven all he can possibly prove in the AHL, you either give him an opportunity or you move him for an equivalent piece that fits the template. I would personally hope the Jets move one of Schmidt/Pionk and Dillion as that cap space could be better allocated elsewhere.

 

[LowLefty]

Agreed on the cap argument. We need some good contributions on ELC to help this group contend. That was how the 17-18 group was able to be such a deep team. You could have expensive middle 6 and bottom paring talent with a good chunk of your top 6 and top 4 on ELC's or bridge deals.

We need Cole to give us good top 6 contributions (Already started seeing that) and VIlle, Samberg to give us good top 4 caliber contributions on ELC's and bridge deals to get this team back on track. You get two top 4 caliber players and a top 6 caliber player for under $5 million in cap this way. It allows you to spend more cap on other areas like scoring depth.

Ville has proven all he can possibly prove in the AHL, you either give him an opportunity or you move him for an equivalent piece that fits the template. I would personally hope the Jets move one of Schmidt/Pionk and Dillion as that cap space could be better allocated elsewhere.

I agree with most of this -
Ville OTOH, needs more time to develop physically - his game is there but his body is not.
I get the argument that he is a skilled dman - but he has a significant shortfall in strength.

He needs more time - I would think he understands that and based on his comments in a late season post game, he is working on building strength - he also mentioned that he doesn't want to over due it to a point where the bulk might slow him down / reduce his quickness. Good for him.
The good news coming out of that is he is self aware - he knows the weight / speed of the NHL game is the hurdle that he is not exposed to, at the same level, in the AHL.

I'm not nearly as concerned as some, about his patience with the Jets - I honestly think he knows that he has to do to make the jump and he's working on it.
Next season will be the eye opener - is he progressing on this front? Is he stronger? Is it showing in his defensive game?
He's hitting that age now where physical strength is easier to develop - I can see him coming into training camp next season, with more of an edge to his game - at least that's what I hope to see.

 

[surixon]

I agree with most of this -
Ville OTOH, needs more time to develop physically - his game is there but his body is not.
I get the argument that he is a skilled dman - but he has a significant shortfall in strength.

He needs more time - I would think he understands that and based on his comments in a late season post game, he is working on building strength - he also mentioned that he doesn't want to over due it to a point where the bulk might slow him down / reduce his quickness. Good for him.
The good news coming out of that is he is self aware - he knows the weight / speed of the NHL game is the hurdle that he is not exposed to, at the same level, in the AHL.

I'm not nearly as concerned as some, about his patience with the Jets - I honestly think he knows that he has to do to make the jump and he's working on it.
Next season will be the eye opener - is he progressing on this front? Is he stronger? Is it showing in his defensive game?
He's hitting that age now where physical strength is easier to develop - I can see him coming into training camp next season, with more of an edge to his game - at least that's what I hope to see.

Yes he needs to get stronger just like most dmen his age. but he is getting to the point where the AHL next year would be a colossal waste of time for him so lets up he has a good summer of training and gets a legit shot to show what he can do.

The question will be whether there will even be a spot for him to try to claim. We have medicore expensive players in the roles he would best fit in Schmidt and Pionk. One of the reason I want to trade one of them.

 

[LowLefty]

Yes he needs to get stronger just like most dmen his age. but he is getting to the point where the AHL next year would be a colossal waste of time for him so lets up he has a good summer of training and gets a legit shot to show what he can do.

The question will be whether there will even be a spot for him to try to claim. We have medicore expensive players in the roles he would best fit in Schmidt and Pionk. One of the reason I want to trade one of them.

I agree we need to move a Smitty / Pionk type player to make room -
But they won't do that until they know they have a replacement ready -
Ville needs to come into camp ready -

The AHL is a placeholder for him - he may not learn much more about the game, but it will give him the time he needs to develop physically - which is up to him.
I don't think they are going to drop him in until he is ready to handle the grind that dmen have to put up with -

There's a trade off IMO - bring him up to develop his skill (when he's already close to that threshold already) - or - work him to develop physically (where's he's not as close to being ready).
It could be argued that it makes more sense to develop the significant shortfall (physical) in the safer AHL environment. The skill he may enhance, playing in the NHL, is less a priority IMO - he is already skilled.

I'd hate to see him seriously injured because he was not physically ready - I think the org is thinking along the same lines (and possibly Ville too).

 

[surixon]

I agree we need to move a Smitty / Pionk type player to make room -
But they won't do that until they know they have a replacement ready -
Ville needs to come into camp ready -

The AHL is a placeholder for him - he may not learn much more about the game, but it will give him the time he needs to develop physically - which is up to him.
I don't think they are going to drop him in until he is ready to handle the grind that dmen have to put up with -

There's a trade off IMO - bring him up to develop his skill (when he's already close to that threshold already) - or - work him to develop physically (where's he's not as close to being ready).
It could be argued that it makes more sense to develop the significant shortfall (physical) in the safer AHL environment. The skill he may enhance, playing in the NHL, is less a priority IMO - he is already skilled.

I'd hate to see him seriously injured because he was not physically ready - I think the org is thinking along the same lines (and possibly Ville too).

Is the AHL a safer league physically? I have always found the AHL to be a heavier, less structured league.

Anyhow my one main concern about another year in the AHL is him developing bad habits in a league that he is too good for. There is a reason the Jets took Ehlers out of the Q early, and Conner out of a non structured offensive free wheeling team in Michigan after one year. They didn't want either picking up bad habits. I see a risk happening with Ville in that regard if he's there again next year.

 

[Stumbledore]

It's curious how we seem to have lost all of the postings here between about April 10 and May 10. One month just evaporated.

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[LowLefty]

Is the AHL a safer league physically? I have always found the AHL to be a heavier, less structured league.

Anyhow my one main concern about another year in the AHL is him developing bad habits in a league that he is too good for. There is a reason the Jets took Ehlers out of the Q early, and Conner out of a non structured offensive free wheeling team in Michigan after one year. They didn't want either picking up bad habits. I see a risk happening with Ville in that regard if he's there again next year.

I guess it will come down the bigger risk -
And yes, the NHL is faster and heavier - not necessarily in just size but more to strength (combined with speed).
There's nothing stopping Ville from adding strength - a lot of the time line is up to him.

As for exceptions
The speed of the players you mention, would have certainly helped in their transition - both are exceptionally fast / quick.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

PS Lets redirect all this Heinola talk to the Heinola thread. It's literally the thread just beneath this one.

I'll even hyerlink it for you, so people can go back to this threads topic of the divided dressing room that Heinola has played no role in.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/heinola-thread

 

[Jetsetter]

I never said he wasn't a good AHL player, so I agree with Murat.

I hope I'm wrong. Obviously I want all the Jet prospects to be blue chip 1st liners. I'm just not seeing it yet with Heinola.

So far I'm seeing a "puck moving defenseman" who moves the puck to the other team far too often and if I'm the opposing team I'm skating straight to his side of the ice because he isn't turning the puck over. Maybe he needs a couple more years to gain some strength but right now he's weak as a kitten.

Morrissey as another under sized defensemen for example didn't have these problems at the same age. Maurice always talked about how impressed he was about Morrissey's ability to come out of the corner with the puck. Heinola isn't doing that. He's just trying is best to stay on the right side of the puck and not get burned hoping someone else will come along and help get the puck back.
+
He did show some flashes of decent play in the offensive zone getting hard shots to the net in his last few games. I hope he can build off that and turn that into some PP2 time eventually and help get him some more ice time.

Josh Morrissey | #44 D 6' 0" 195 lb Age: 27​

Ville Heinola | #14 D 5' 11" 178 lb Age: 21​

Adam Fox | #23 D 5' 11" 183 lb Age: 24 Norris Trophy winner

You don't have to be big to be effective.

 

[TS Quint]

Josh Morrissey | #44 D 6' 0" 195 lb Age: 27​

Ville Heinola | #14 D 5' 11" 178 lb Age: 21​

Adam Fox | #23 D 5' 11" 183 lb Age: 24 Norris Trophy winner

You don't have to be big to be effective.

Considering I said Morrissey was/is effective this is a misplaced post. But thanks for showing it off with the big bold letters.

 

[TS Quint]

Is the AHL a safer league physically? I have always found the AHL to be a heavier, less structured league.

Anyhow my one main concern about another year in the AHL is him developing bad habits in a league that he is too good for. There is a reason the Jets took Ehlers out of the Q early, and Conner out of a non structured offensive free wheeling team in Michigan after one year. They didn't want either picking up bad habits. I see a risk happening with Ville in that regard if he's there again next year.

He could start by developing the habits he needs to be a NHL player. I get what you are saying. Heinola has enough natural gifts to make him a excellent AHL player and if he decides to only want to be an excellent AHL player then that is what he will be. If he decides to work on his Dzone play, make the right passes gain some strength etc he will get to be a better player. The AHL in NO WAY causes bad habits. Players make their own choices.

 

[surixon]

He could start by developing the habits he needs to be a NHL player. I get what you are saying. Heinola has enough natural gifts to make him a excellent AHL player and if he decides to only want to be an excellent AHL player then that is what he will be. If he decides to work on his Dzone play, make the right passes gain some strength etc he will get to be a better player. The AHL in NO WAY causes bad habits. Players make their own choices.

It has to do with being challenged. He already plays good defense at the AHL level and moves the puck at an elite level at the AHL level. He has nothing left to learn there and needs to be challenged by a higher level of competition.

 

[TS Quint]

Another consideration is cap efficiency -- paying Pionk or Schmidt nearly 6 million to do what Ville should be able to do (and maybe, eventually, more) for 1/5 or so of that many means you're losing out on that strong middle 6 forward at 3-4 million.

You develop players in-house so they can help your team move forward efficiently, making space and room for key holes to be plugged.

Bringing in Schmidt and Dillon with term means that one or more of them, Stanley, Heinola or Samberg needs to be moved. Chevy is paying a heavy price in several ways: spending yet more picks, even it it's "only" 2nds and 3rds, blocking prospects with high potential upsides, and losing a substantial amount of cap room and efficiency.

The 2017-18 Jets were a hugely cap efficient team. The 2021-22 Jets were right on the edge all season long. Sure, Little's move means an easier path, but imagine this team with some combo of Heinola / Samberg /Stanley in place of Dillon / Schmidt -- is there really much in the way of a diowngrade in terms of performance for the 8 - 10 million you're saving in cap space?

You draft prospects. You invest huge amounts in developing them. Then you reap the rewards in terms of team continuity and cap efficiency. But we are not doing that atm.

And (nothing to do with you, @Upperdeckjet!) I stand by my earlier comments re prospects. Respectful and informed discussion is always interesting. "X sucks / has busted / bag of pucks time!" stuff is just trollery, IMO. It sends useful threads into back n' forth freefall.

Anyway. Go Moose, Go Jets draft, here's hoping for a best-ever offseason.

From Dillon and Schmidt to some combo of Heinola, Samberg and Stanley is a flying jump off a cliff in terms of talent at this point. And I really like where Samberg is going and not ready to write off Stanley either. I hope Heinola can take another step next year but He would need to show a heck of a lot more for him just to be handed a job he hasn’t earned.

 

[TS Quint]

It has to do with being challenged. He already plays good defense at the AHL level and moves the puck at an elite level at the AHL level. He has nothing left to learn there and needs to be challenged by a higher level of competition.

We will disagree. It’s been nice to see some Moose games on tv. I’m still seeing he‘s not at the top of the class without the puck at that level. And for a guy who is supposed to be known for his smart puck moving he still panics even in the AHL like the last game where he missed a simple pass to the blue line with 90 seconds left. It what we see at the NHL level too where he makes a lot of bad passes which to me is concerning when that is supposed to be his strength. We don’t see that problem with a prospect like Samberg who I think is much more developed as a prospect. Heinola needs to get to a point where he has something he does well so at the very least the Jets can put him into a position to succeed as a NHL regular. Maybe next year he can get to that point but he wasn’t there yet this year. But if he can’t take that step handing him a job is just poor prospect development.

 

[surixon]

We will disagree. It’s been nice to see some Moose games on tv. I’m still seeing he‘s not at the top of the class without the puck at that level. And for a guy who is supposed to be known for his smart puck moving he still panics even in the AHL like the last game where he missed a simple pass to the blue line with 90 seconds left. It what we see at the NHL level too where he makes a lot of bad passes which to me is concerning when that is supposed to be his strength. We don’t see that problem with a prospect like Samberg who I think is much more developed as a prospect. Heinola needs to get to a point where he has something he does well so at the very least the Jets can put him into a position to succeed as a NHL regular. Maybe next year he can get to that point but he wasn’t there yet this year. But if he can’t take that step handing him a job is just poor prospect development.

Well I can point to any player missing a simple pass at times. By and large his passes are precise and quick.

We won't agree here and that is fine.

 

[gojetsgo]

 

[DRW204]

Schmidt seems like a fun guy to be around. From the vids I saw, only shot clips FWIW, seems like he and heinola were bonding. Nice to hear after all the other lockeroom stuff that's been swirling around.

 

[Romang67]

I have absolutely no clue why Heinola wasn't paired up with Schmidt more. The pairing did really well together, it balanced our lineup (other than our garbage 2nd pairing that Lowry refused to split up), and it sounds like they had good chemistry away from games too.

 

[ICdave]

Full chat here:

 

[oli88]

What can you expect from Heinola next year?

What could be his upside after D+3?

 

[fmrdh]

What can you expect from Heinola next year?

What could be his upside after D+3?

Full time 3rd pair minutes in the NHL